Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

[Crazedwraith]

By the way, we've only seen the ID4 aliens' forcefields repel bullets and missiles. We don't know whether those forcefields could, or could not, repel energy weapons such as the Iron man armor's repulsor beams or lightning thrown by Thor's hammer. To claim that they could do so is as baseless as claiming that the shield surrounding the Tesseract could repel the City Destroyer's energy beam. Tit for tat, boys.

You've entirely misunderstood the discussion on the Tesseract's shield. The argument was not 'we don't see the shield withstand ID4 weaponry therefore it can't', it was 'just because JARVIS says the shield is impenetrable doesn't mean it's literally unbreechable by anything. Just that it's outside the power range of the Iron Man suit.'

First, we see the city-killer survive a nuclear detonation. Nuclear explosions = a lot of thermal and radiation energy to resist. If they can do that, they can probably resist a bit of lightning.

Second, the Id4 ships themselves are equipped with energy weapons. It's not unreasonable to assume their shields are built to withstand their own weapons.

Finally, even if the respulsor rays and lightening pass right through the shields they won't deal significant damage to a ship of that size.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

No one in this thread has even implied either one of your two points of "conventional wisdom."

On the contrary, they have rejected your notion that the Avengers and the MCU are omnipotent, omniscient, and with no limits whatsoever on their abilities, who will beat the ID4 aliens, simply because you like the Avengers and the MCU, and hate the ID4 aliens because they're not Marvel.

Which is what all of your arguments have boiled down to. You even went as far as to imply that the aliens would be unable to gather information on MCU Earth—when RL science and tech flies in the very face of that—while the MCU heroes and organizations(S.H.I.E.L.D.) are, in your eyes, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-wise, all the time, and if that isn't clear and obvious bias, then I'll be goddamned if I know what is.

Yes, Tony Stark's a smart dude. Nick Fury's a smart dude. Bruce Banner's a smart dude. The Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D. have some smart and exceptionally talented people working for them. As do the X-Men and the Fantastic Four. Not to mention NYPD's Code Blue unit(if they're still a thing or even in the MCU at all). And, of course Loki, and even Spidey, if you want to throw him in.

And, the MCU side has a great deal of cool tech and powers. None of the others in this thread are discounting that.

But, what you are deliberately discounting is these aliens aren't a race of dumbasses either. A race of dumbasses doesn't build big freaking huge ships with mass-destruction death rays capable of crossing the interstellar void at appreciable(i.e. relativistic) STL speeds and not be scoured to nothing by constant collisions with the interstellar medium.

And, their technology is equally as impressive as what MCU has to offer, if not more so.

No one is loading the dice in the aliens' favor. They're being presented as they were in the movie, with allowances made for basic science and common sense.

You, on the other hand, have been projecting your faults onto your opponents. You have been attempting to heavily load the dice in favor of the Avengers, S.H.I.E.L.D., and the other MCU heroes who are represenantive of only a fraction of MCU Earth's population and tech base.

By the way, we've only seen the ID4 aliens' forcefields repel bullets and missiles. We don't know whether those forcefields could, or could not, repel energy weapons such as the Iron man armor's repulsor beams or lightning thrown by Thor's hammer. To claim that they could do so is as baseless as claiming that the shield surrounding the Tesseract could repel the City Destroyer's energy beam. Tit for tat, boys.

They can build massive ships which can cross interstellar space at a respectible STL velocity with no appreciable ill effects from constant collision with the interstellar medium, or constant exposure to the radiation of said medium, and they employ DEW themselves, but claiming their shields can deflect DEW as well as KEW, chemical and nuclear explosions(both of which are released energy, by the way)is baseless?!

Seriously?!

[Terralthra]

We saw the shield on the city destroyers in ID4 withstand a thermonuclear explosion. The ship wasn't examined in close detail, but appeared unscratched.

Iron Man's arc reactor's output is measured in gigawatts - 3 for the cave-built one, roughly an order of magnitude more for the replacement (he's at ~15% power in the climactic fight when running on the original in the Mk. 3). Nuclear devices are measured in the hundreds to thousands of terajoules, released in fractions if a second. That puts their power output somewhere in the neighborhood of (at least) 6-8 orders of magnitude greater than the maximum power of which Iron Man's suit might theoretically be capable.

Lightning strikes measure in the gigajoules as well, also many orders of magnitude less than a thermonuclear weapon. It's unknown how often Thor can summon lightning, though he doesn't seem to do it in close succession in the movies anywhere I remember offhand.

The shields on the city destroyers have withstood far greater energy levels than Iron Man or Thor have been shown to bring to bear.

[NecronLord]

So Avengers < Original ID4 team

The original ID4 team was better than the Avengers?!

Somehow, I don't think that expression is saying what you think it does.

I think it's satirizing the prevailing belief, in this thread, that the original ID4 team is, on any metric, more capable than the Avengers.

There's not a single member of the original team whose skillsets even equal the skillsets brought to the table by the Avengers. Yet the "conventional wisdom" in this thread has amounted to one of two things:

1. The Avengers could not do, in the original team's place, what the original team did.

OR:

2. So heavily loading the dice in the ID4 aliens' favor that nobody could beat them, including the original team that actually beat them on screen.

What you're not getting was that the plot of ID4 was basically miraculous. If you re-run the film a hundred times, the aliens would win ninety nine of the times; if we did a 'ID4 aliens vs ID4 Earth' thread, we'd say the aliens would win too.

[Axton]

The original ID4 team was better than the Avengers?!

Somehow, I don't think that expression is saying what you think it does.

I think it's satirizing the prevailing belief, in this thread, that the original ID4 team is, on any metric, more capable than the Avengers.

There's not a single member of the original team whose skillsets even equal the skillsets brought to the table by the Avengers. Yet the "conventional wisdom" in this thread has amounted to one of two things:

1. The Avengers could not do, in the original team's place, what the original team did.

OR:

2. So heavily loading the dice in the ID4 aliens' favor that nobody could beat them, including the original team that actually beat them on screen.

What you're not getting was that the plot of ID4 was basically miraculous. If you re-run the film a hundred times, the aliens would win ninety nine of the times; if we did a 'ID4 aliens vs ID4 Earth' thread, we'd say the aliens would win too.

Based on what? Nothing they demonstrated on screen allowed them to win. They gave it their best shot and canonically their best shot still failed. Sure, they would have won if only they hadn't lost -- but lose they did.

[Axton]

By the way, we've only seen the ID4 aliens' forcefields repel bullets and missiles. We don't know whether those forcefields could, or could not, repel energy weapons such as the Iron man armor's repulsor beams or lightning thrown by Thor's hammer. To claim that they could do so is as baseless as claiming that the shield surrounding the Tesseract could repel the City Destroyer's energy beam. Tit for tat, boys.

You've entirely misunderstood the discussion on the Tesseract's shield. The argument was not 'we don't see the shield withstand ID4 weaponry therefore it can't', it was 'just because JARVIS says the shield is impenetrable doesn't mean it's literally unbreechable by anything. Just that it's outside the power range of the Iron Man suit.'

First, we see the city-killer survive a nuclear detonation. Nuclear explosions = a lot of thermal and radiation energy to resist. If they can do that, they can probably resist a bit of lightning.

Second, the Id4 ships themselves are equipped with energy weapons. It's not unreasonable to assume their shields are built to withstand their own weapons.

Finally, even if the respulsor rays and lightening pass right through the shields they won't deal significant damage to a ship of that size.

Okay, those are fair points. We know their shields can take a fairly significant dose of thermal and radiation. Or at least, we know that the amount of thermal and radiation the ships took weren't enough to disable that ship even if the shields didn't stop it.

The problem is that we didn't see one of those ships canonically take a sustained barrage of lightning, or take shots from an Iron Man armor's repulsor beams. Hell, we don't even know what repulsor beams are. That's the problem I'm trying to point out -- there's just too much conjecture to say for certain that the city killer ships' shields could withstand the armament that would be thrown at them in this scenario.

At the same time, there's also no canonical evidence saying any of those weapons could punch through. A definite claim either way is an appeal to ignorance.

[NecronLord]

Based on what? Nothing they demonstrated on screen allowed them to win. They gave it their best shot and canonically their best shot still failed.

For one thing the one person who realizes what the signal is just happens to be immediately associated with the President's personal advisers. Remember, he stumbles across this when even the likes of SETI and the US Space Command don't twig.

[Crazedwraith]

Okay, those are fair points. We know their shields can take a fairly significant dose of thermal and radiation. Or at least, we know that the amount of thermal and radiation the ships took weren't enough to disable that ship even if the shields didn't stop it.

The problem is that we didn't see one of those ships canonically take a sustained barrage of lightning, or take shots from an Iron Man armor's repulsor beams. Hell, we don't even know what repulsor beams are. That's the problem I'm trying to point out -- there's just too much conjecture to say for certain that the city killer ships' shields could withstand the armament that would be thrown at them in this scenario.

At the same time, there's also no canonical evidence saying any of those weapons could punch through. A definite claim either way is an appeal to ignorance.

No but as we've pointed out, we see them withstand things that are for more powerful than lightning and repulsor beams. We know they're than durable enough to withstand the Avengers attacks even if we haven't seen them withstand that exact threat.

We know repulsor beams can be blocked by shields (the one around the cube), so it's a reasonable assumption that ID4 shields will block them as well. And as I said, even if they don't. We don't see repulsor beams and Thor's lightning ever do anything like enough damage to take out something the size of a city-ship made of heavy metals.

[Axton]

That's a non-factor in the MCU. Stark (the equivalent "Lenvinson" character in this scenario) doesn't have an ex-wife in the Oval Office, but he doesn't need that connection. With the Feds begging him for his tech, he outpaces them, in hardware, and his AI's blow everything they've got out of the water. And considering that a member of the Avengers team is, himself, an extraterrestrial (Thor) Stark would be keeping an ear to that wall.

[Axton]

Okay, those are fair points. We know their shields can take a fairly significant dose of thermal and radiation. Or at least, we know that the amount of thermal and radiation the ships took weren't enough to disable that ship even if the shields didn't stop it.

The problem is that we didn't see one of those ships canonically take a sustained barrage of lightning, or take shots from an Iron Man armor's repulsor beams. Hell, we don't even know what repulsor beams are. That's the problem I'm trying to point out -- there's just too much conjecture to say for certain that the city killer ships' shields could withstand the armament that would be thrown at them in this scenario.

At the same time, there's also no canonical evidence saying any of those weapons could punch through. A definite claim either way is an appeal to ignorance.

No but as we've pointed out, we see them withstand things that are for more powerful than lightning and repulsor beams.

"More powerful" is not the be-all and end-all of every comparison. An SUV is more powerful than a motorcycle, but if I hit you with an SUV doing 5mph, it's going to do a lot less damage than hitting you with a motorcycle doing 80. Bigger is not always better.

[Crazedwraith]

Okay, those are fair points. We know their shields can take a fairly significant dose of thermal and radiation. Or at least, we know that the amount of thermal and radiation the ships took weren't enough to disable that ship even if the shields didn't stop it.

The problem is that we didn't see one of those ships canonically take a sustained barrage of lightning, or take shots from an Iron Man armor's repulsor beams. Hell, we don't even know what repulsor beams are. That's the problem I'm trying to point out -- there's just too much conjecture to say for certain that the city killer ships' shields could withstand the armament that would be thrown at them in this scenario.

At the same time, there's also no canonical evidence saying any of those weapons could punch through. A definite claim either way is an appeal to ignorance.

No but as we've pointed out, we see them withstand things that are for more powerful than lightning and repulsor beams.

"More powerful" is not the be-all and end-all of every comparison. An SUV is more powerful than a motorcycle, but if I hit you with an SUV doing 5mph, it's going to do a lot less damage than hitting you with a motorcycle doing 80. Bigger is not always better.

The irony here is magnificent. This logic is exactly why "Avengers > ID4 protagonists so they beat ID4 Aliens" is not true.

As to the shield issue. Provide some actual evidence from the film that shields might block some effects and not others. I quite obviously can't show an instance of Repulsor beams being blocked for by id4 shields. But I have shown them blocked by other shields. So they don't have any shield penetration properties that we know of. We have to make some assumptions in vs debates and one of them is usually 'shields will interdict other's weapons unless we have some evidence they won't'

And for the third time even if we accept the idea that repulsor beams and lightning bolts just go right through ID4 shields. They still don't back enough of a punch to bring down a city-killer ship.

[NecronLord]

That's a non-factor in the MCU.
Stark (the equivalent "Lenvinson" character in this scenario) doesn't have an ex-wife in the Oval Office, but he doesn't need that connection. With the Feds begging him for his tech, he outpaces them, in hardware, and his AI's blow everything they've got out of the water. And considering that a member of the Avengers team is, himself, an extraterrestrial (Thor) Stark would be keeping an ear to that wall.

Except here's the rub.

The chain of events requires the person in charge of the US Military to be directly listening to the person who cracks the code.

It's also not a matter of having more computer power or being a better computer geek - Levinson did it because he was specifically interested in satellite interference on civilian channels.

Better equipped analysts in SETI and the Pentagon didn't do it in the film because they weren't looking in the right place.

[Axton]

No but as we've pointed out, we see them withstand things that are for more powerful than lightning and repulsor beams.

"More powerful" is not the be-all and end-all of every comparison. An SUV is more powerful than a motorcycle, but if I hit you with an SUV doing 5mph, it's going to do a lot less damage than hitting you with a motorcycle doing 80. Bigger is not always better.

The irony here is magnificent. This logic is exactly why "Avengers > ID4 protagonists so they beat ID4 Aliens" is not true.

As to the shield issue. Provide some actual evidence from the film that shields might block some effects and not others. I quite obviously can't show an instance of Repulsor beams being blocked for by id4 shields. But I have shown them blocked by other shields. So they don't have any shield penetration properties that we know of. We have to make some assumptions in vs debates and one of them is usually 'shields will interdict other's weapons unless we have some evidence they won't'

That violates Burden of Proof no less than claiming that a certain weapon will defeat those shields unless we're shown explicitly that it won't. This is what I've been saying.

And for the third time even if we accept the idea that repulsor beams and lightning bolts just go right through ID4 shields. They still don't back enough of a punch to bring down a city-killer ship.

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage. And as mentioned far upthread, the Iron Man armor packed armaments sufficient to defeat T-90 armor and basically obliterate said tank once it had done so.

[Axton]

That's a non-factor in the MCU.
Stark (the equivalent "Lenvinson" character in this scenario) doesn't have an ex-wife in the Oval Office, but he doesn't need that connection. With the Feds begging him for his tech, he outpaces them, in hardware, and his AI's blow everything they've got out of the water. And considering that a member of the Avengers team is, himself, an extraterrestrial (Thor) Stark would be keeping an ear to that wall.

Except here's the rub.

The chain of events requires the person in charge of the US Military to be directly listening to the person who cracks the code.

And as of Avengers, S.H.I.E.L.D. is doing exactly that. In fact, they're actively engaged in weapons development to counter potential new threats from that direction.

It's also not a matter of having more computer power or being a better computer geek - Levinson did it because he was specifically interested in satellite interference on civilian channels.

And long before it would hit civilian channels, it would trip the radar (metaphorically speaking) of an agency with more powerful tech which is actively keeping an ear out for it.

Better equipped analysts in SETI and the Pentagon didn't do it in the film because they weren't looking in the right place.

Because of the antics of Loki and Thor, S.H.I.E.L.D. is looking in the right place.

[NecronLord]

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage.

What? Post screencaps.

OFFICER
We're running out of missiles, Sir. We're just not causing enough damage.

Short of hitting the weapon as it fired the missiles accomplished next to nothing.

Because of the antics of Loki and Thor, S.H.I.E.L.D. is looking in the right place.

You don't get it, do you? Levinson found it by chance; he wasn't looking for it. The signals analysis people who were looking found nothing of interest.

[Axton]

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage.

What? Post screencaps.

Sure. From 2:09:03.

OFFICER
We're running out of missiles, Sir. We're just not causing enough damage.

Short of hitting the weapon as it fired the missiles accomplished next to nothing.

The pictured damage may not have been enough to cripple the ship, but it's hardly "next to nothing."

Because of the antics of Loki and Thor, S.H.I.E.L.D. is looking in the right place.

You don't get it, do you? Levinson found it by chance; he wasn't looking for it. The signals analysis people who were looking found nothing of interest.

No, apparently you don't get it. S.H.I.E.L.D. is actively looking for what Levinson found by chance. The signals analysis people didn't find it because they didn't expect it to be actively approaching Earth. S.H.I.E.L.D. is looking for extraterrestrial threats that are actively approaching Earth, so yes, they would spot the ID4 ship because it fits exactly within the threat profile they're looking out for as per their "Phase 2" program.

[NecronLord]

I'm not seeing a screen capture there.

I'm willing to bet what you have is a picture of a fireball, though?

[Crazedwraith]

That violates Burden of Proof no less than claiming that a certain weapon will defeat those shields unless we're shown explicitly that it won't. This is what I've been saying.

It's been proven as much as it can be. ID4 shields can stop thermal energy and radiation and kinetic impacts. Repulsor beams and lightning are basically just those things. They can also very likely stop glowy energy blast since that's what they shoot and military tends to build things that can resist their own weapons/peer competitors.

There's no evidence to suggest they have any particular weaknesses to anything.

And for the third time even if we accept the idea that repulsor beams and lightning bolts just go right through ID4 shields. They still don't back enough of a punch to bring down a city-killer ship.

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage. And as mentioned far upthread, the Iron Man armor packed armaments sufficient to defeat T-90 armor and basically obliterate said tank once it had done so.

I don't recall AMRAAMs doing more than scratching the surface. There was no suggestion significant damage was done until they found the weakspot. (Again basically by accident because the mad guy's missile jammed iirc)

The City-killer is much much much larger than a T-90 you realise?

[NecronLord]

I'm just going to preempt and assume he means to post this shot. Which looks like some damage is being done. The thing is it's followed up by this shot which shows that the same prow area on the saucer is basically undamaged, certainly there's nothing on the scale of the fireballs.

But given that they can work a mass the size of the moon and their fighters can crash into cliffs and survive without even having their prows dented, it's a fair bet their metallurgy is 'pretty ace.'

[Axton]

That violates Burden of Proof no less than claiming that a certain weapon will defeat those shields unless we're shown explicitly that it won't. This is what I've been saying.

It's been proven as much as it can be. ID4 shields can stop thermal energy and radiation and kinetic impacts. Repulsor beams and lightning are basically just those things.

In the case of lightning, that's knowable. You have some on-screen evidence of the exact nature of repulsor beams?

They can also very likely stop glowy energy blast since that's what they shoot and military tends to build things that can resist their own weapons/peer competitors.

With their shields up, perhaps. With their shields down? Did we see an ID4 fighter shoot at one of its own after the shields had been tanked in order to know that the ship is structurally resistant to that weaponry?

There's no evidence to suggest they have any particular weaknesses to anything.

They have a weakness in the form of a total lack of cybersecurity, which compromises their shields. They have a wekness in the form of a gigantic bullseye of a weapons array when it's unshielded.

And for the third time even if we accept the idea that repulsor beams and lightning bolts just go right through ID4 shields. They still don't back enough of a punch to bring down a city-killer ship.

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage. And as mentioned far upthread, the Iron Man armor packed armaments sufficient to defeat T-90 armor and basically obliterate said tank once it had done so.

I don't recall AMRAAMs doing more than scratching the surface.

Look at the screenshot above. Those are a damned sight beyond scratches.

There was no suggestion significant damage was done until they found the weakspot.

Wrong. The suggestion was that they didn't have a sufficient number of conventional missiles to finish the job. That's not the same thing as a suggestion that "no significant damage was done -- merely that a crippling level of damage could not be done with the missile complement of a half dozen or so aircraft.

[Axton]

I'm just going to preempt and assume he means to post this shot. Which looks like some damage is being done. The thing is it's followed up by this shot which shows that the same prow area on the saucer is basically undamaged, certainly there's nothing on the scale of the fireballs.

At the distance and screen resolution of the second shot, are you kidding? Of course no damage is visible in the second shot, it appears to show the object at pretty significant distance and in SD. What would you expect to see except with a follow-up from the distance of shot 1?

As for the fighter impact, that impact still rendered the thing inoperable and resulted in a crash landing.

[Crazedwraith]

In the case of lightning, that's knowable. You have some on-screen evidence of the exact nature of repulsor beams?

Just that we see what they do. Which is impact damage only. Things act like they've been thumped. They never burn or explode to the best my knowledge. They're force beams which fits with their origin as flight stablisers

With their shields up, perhaps. With their shields down? Did we see an ID4 fighter shoot at one of its own after the shields had been tanked in order to know that the ship is structurally resistant to that weaponry?

We don't see that but I don't see the relevance. We see the fighters slam into the ground. We see the city ship take many missiles. Iron Man's weapons can barely chew bits of the helicarrier off. Let alone heavy space craft like the city-destroyer.

There's no evidence to suggest they have any particular weaknesses to anything.

They have a weakness in the form of a total lack of cybersecurity, which compromises their shields. They have a wekness in the form of a gigantic bullseye of a weapons array when it's unshielded.

I was talking about the shields you idiot.

You've consistently ignored counter arguments regarding Cybersecurity so I won't bother. As for the bullseye, that's a weakness Iron Man would practically have to suicide run to take advantage of. He has line of sight ray guns and missiles that hardly have any legs to them at all.

Since we haven't seen them strike an ID4 ship, we don't know that. We do know that once those shields were taken down, even the AMRAAM missiles fired by FA/18s had their normal effect -- though, granted, AMRAAMs alone might not have actually brought down the ship, they did appear to be doing it significant damage. And as mentioned far upthread, the Iron Man armor packed armaments sufficient to defeat T-90 armor and basically obliterate said tank once it had done so.

I don't recall AMRAAMs doing more than scratching the surface.

Look at the screenshot above. Those are a damned sight beyond scratches.

What screenshot? You've not posted any.

There was no suggestion significant damage was done until they found the weakspot.

Wrong. The suggestion was that they didn't have a sufficient number of conventional missiles to finish the job. That's not the same thing as a suggestion that "no significant damage was done -- merely that a crippling level of damage could not be done with the missile complement of a half dozen or so aircraft.

That's not what the film shows at all. Seriously, they down a few fighters. the City-Ship's performance was entirely unimpaired.

[NecronLord]

Stepping to the Doylian level, I know they didn't film any damage on the model of the saucer. Several models were used, that shot with the missiles was with the large close up model 48' diameter equiv scale (They built only the prow section, of course), while the long shot following is with either the 4' the 12' diameter standard model; no work was done to make it distressed.

A seperate 12' model was used for the destruction scene.

There's very no visible damage no matter what resolution you go to, because at no point was the effects crew instructed to show damage.

This is as far as I know mind you, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I invite evidence that I am.

[Crazedwraith]

whoops quoted in place of edit.

[Axton]

Look at the screenshot above. Those are a damned sight beyond scratches.

What screenshot? You've not posted any.[/quote]

Um... what. I think you'll find that I did. Even NecronLord saw it and posted a better version of same.