Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[brianeyci]

In the case of the Shadows, who even says that the Borg would be able to assimilate them when the Shadows...

Actually the paragraph you pulled out was referring to the "nanoprobe torpedo" idea that doesn't really work anyway since the Feds have the tech. I fully agree that it would be difficult if not impossible to assimilate a Vorlon or a Shadow, but assimilation is still a weapon to be used on the YR.

As an aside,

The bomb's expanding sphere of energy has a radius from the center of the detonation to the center of the Warcruiser. This becomes a sphere with a surface area of 575490 pixels. Thus, the Warcruiser can absorb no more than 5.1% of the bomb's total energy release (the area of the circle is 5.1% of the sphere's surface area). This 5.1% is approximately 427 terajoules (102 kilotons).

So Sharlin warcruisers would be destroyed by the low-end estimate of Federation torpedoes in one hit, and cut apart by the 30k TW phasers in a second, or if you take hull armor 1-10 TW range, maybe forty seconds to a few minutes. Minbari hull armor is not that great either, as a crashing Starfury can cause some damage. So the Borg would have no problem assimilating the YR, and the Shadows/Vorlons would have to step in to protect them.

Brian

[Rye]

I remind you though, the YR right now are being defended by the army of light, with their fleet of whitestars/misc other ships and lots of those 500 MT bombs, so that's not going to be a cakewalk as you make it seem, certainly.

[Nephilim]

Also,

They might be able to assimilate the younger race's knowledge of hyperspace, but this again means nothing to what the First Ones are capable of achieving. According to B5Wars, the jump gate network was actually seeded by the Vorlons themselves (the reason that ALL of the younger races use similar jump technology as used by the Vorlons and all the other First Ones use different methods to enter hyperspace). But the Vorlons actually made it fairly easy for the technology to be understood and then copied to its most basic level to actually allow hyperspace travel, but this does not mean that they are capable of achieving the same feats as the other First Ones who had to discover hyperspace by themselves in isolation and completely mapped it and perfected the technology.

Evidence of superior hyperspace capabilities used by the First Ones in the series abound. Vorlons folding hyperspace into a pocket to elude detection (presumably also effective against the Shadows, as it would be useless to even attempt it if your enemy could see through it). Shadow ability to create gates which link one location to another nearly instanously (as seen In a Call to Arms and again mentioned in The Legions of Fire Trilogy). Shadow ability to phase in and out of hyperspace, which can also be used as a defensive mechanism to phase the ship between both real-space and hyperspace to dispurse damage or pass through solid objects (as seen in theh episode where the Narn fleet was destroyed at Gorash and gone into further detail in B5Wars in fluff which unless contradicted is canon).

While the Borg might be able to assimilate younger race hyperspace technology, the Borg would not be able to duplicate the same feats as the Shadows and Vorlons still giving the advantage to them despite the Borg having access to the technology.

[Batman]

OK, as you seem to be among the intelectually challenged-As he assumes 30 PW phasers is consistent with 24 MT PTs, he BY definition assumes 24 Mt torpedoes are valid!!! Seriously, how stupid can a single human get?

WHAT A FUCKING MORON I link you directly to the page where DW used 34 different sources to estimate the 30k TW figure and you still don't get it

And how many of them were NOT against AQ shields?

Do you want me to explain what he did you asshole? He took "1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation" WHICH HE GOT FROM AN INDEPTH ANALYSIS OF 34 DIFFERENT SOURCES and then got the 200k TJ figure, then divided by five seconds to lower a Fed ship's shields get 30k TW to 40K TW figure.

And how many of those sources actually support your point against anything other than AQ shields?[/quote]

And don't you dare start using the fucking 1500 TJ figure now that I've explained it to you, your whole moronic argument has been that DW based the 30k TW figure on torpedo yield, which is false. Who cares if DW thinks the 24 megaton value is valid or not valid in that paragraph, HE DID NOT DERVIE THE 30K TW FIREPOWER FIGURE FROM THE 24 MEGATON TORPEDO FIGURE you ass, as you have kept saying despite me trying to subtly point out your stupidity to you. Now that I have spelled it out crystal clear, will you concede the point or keep being an ass.

I trust that statement stands for itself.

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields,

And therefore there is NO REASON to assume they have them.

and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

By all means show me the Inter-Universial Appearance Visual guide that says hat since an effect in YOUR universe looks exactly like one in ANOTHER, it has to work by the same mechanism...

IOW, you're ASSUMING they do because it happens to serve your agenda.

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields,[/quore]
In which case the prudent position to adapt is that they DON'T.

and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.[/quote]
Would you mind showing me the memo were the Universe Visual effects authority made you their representative? Because unless you CAN, your claim has NO BASIS WHATSOEVER.

Pure garbage.

You accusing me to be a LIAR and bringing up red herrings like Neutronium and continually disuputing the 30k TW figure is garbage.

How, exactly, is Neutronium a lie, and how, exactly, is disputing the 30 PW figure?

OT: a note to the mods: As this is no doubt going to degenerate into HOS material, I have no problem with this being moved.

Despite there being NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER...

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields, and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

BaseD on what?

because it looks exactly like a hull hugging shield.

What an incredibly convincing argument.

That's what we do in sci-fi debating, look at the visuals dick.

Bfh. Bfhh. Bfhhha. Fffaaa FHHAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAHAAA.

As evidenced by WHAT EXACTLY, apart from your almost Walperish delusions about the Borg HAVING to be uber?

And your insistence of the Vorlons and Shadows not having shields is because?[/quote]
There is no evidence whatsoever of them?

Is your insistence on them not having shields because you don't want the 30k TW figure to be valid?

I already KNOW that figure to be invalid, you moron. How about YOU providing some evidence that figure is STILL valid?

[brianeyci]

This is sort of like the opposite of the vs etiquette, where the idea that the different concepts at work in the seperate universes don't work, for instance, culture hyperspace being inaccessible in SW galaxy. This is the polar opposite of that, where in fact you're negating the differences between those universes and they HAVE to abide by trek concepts for some reason.

Fine Batman, the point is conceded about the shields. However its NOT because if your retarded attempt at claiming that the 30k TW phasers are invalid because they are based on 24 megaton torpedoes, its because Rye has enlightened me with the contrapositive.

Okay. So phasers/disruptors would be largely ineffective against Shadow crabs. That leaves us with the 0.1 MT torpedo. Does that mean the death of the Borg? Not necessarily. The 250k TJ figure maximum limit for Shadow ship endurance is just that -- a maximum derived from the exploding 500 megaton nuclear bomb which may have been overkill. Let's take an instance where a Shadow ship actually destroys an enemy vessel and not just stuns it or damages it for a lower limit.

Shadow beams can also cut Narn heavy cruisers in half in a couple of seconds. A Narn heavy cruiser is about 750 meters long. It is several decks thick as well. If we assume that the beam melts a 10 meter-wide strip through 5 decks, the entire length of the vessel; and that the vessel is made of iron and is filled with air ~95% of the volume; the beams must have melted around 5700 cubic meters of iron. This would require around 41 terajoules of energy (~10 kilotons - on the same order of magnitude as the Hiroshima bomb). The Shadows do this with relative ease and at very long range several times during the battle in The Long Twilight Struggle.

So the lower limit for Shadow cutter beams is 10 kilotons.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I remind you though, the YR right now are being defended by the army of light, with their fleet of whitestars/misc other ships and lots of those 500 MT bombs, so that's not going to be a cakewalk as you make it seem, certainly.

How often are these 500 MT bombs used? The question is whether or not they are standard armadment, or whether they only rely on them in desperate situations such as Sheridan and the Blackstar, or against the Shadows.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Okay. So after eight pages of threads, I might as well spell out what I think the Borg would do in a fight with the Vorlons and Shadows (the overall strategy).

1. The Borg either consolidated much of their population into one complex after S. 8472's rampage, or naturally live that way (REF:VOY). So if the Vorlons and Shadows appear and start inflicting heavy losses, they will either have evacuated their planets or will already have the majority of their population in centralized areas. The Borg industrial base will be under heavy attack.

2. If they are unable to assimilate them (as we all agree that they would have difficulty with), then the Borg enter B5 space and try and assimilate YR technology.

3. Meanwhile, a lot of Borg infrastructure is destroyed. The Borg assimilate some YR and the Shadows and Vorlons are forced to cut their campaign short and come to the aid of the YR.

4. Now its a toss up. If the Borg succeed in assimilating almost all or all of the YR, then the guardians will be out of a job. They will probably get angry, wreak havoc, and leave, guardians gone and Borg crippled so they are no longer a power in the Trek quadrant. If the Vorlons/Shadows successfully defend against the Borg, it is likely they will revert to their own scheming and leave Borg space alone. Their intent is to stop the Borg from intefering with their master plan, not to annihilate them. Perhaps the Shadows/Vorlons attempt to close the wormhole.

5. In the best case scenario for the Borg, the Borg are crippled/exterminated but drive the guardians out of the B5 galaxy because there are no more YR. In the best case scenario for the Shadows/Vorlons, the Borg are crippled and they revert to their old scheming and ignore the Borg. The Borg will not win -- Shadow and Vorlon mastery of hyperspace ensures that. But if they manage to assimilate too many of the YR, the guardians will have no more pawns to play with and leave just like in B5 when the YR stood up to them.

Brian

[Rye]

I remind you though, the YR right now are being defended by the army of light, with their fleet of whitestars/misc other ships and lots of those 500 MT bombs, so that's not going to be a cakewalk as you make it seem, certainly.

How often are these 500 MT bombs used? The question is whether or not they are standard armadment, or whether they only rely on them in desperate situations such as Sheridan and the Blackstar, or against the Shadows.

Brian

The 2 MT nukes on the agamemnon I guess are standard armament(dunno how many), the 500 MT Gaim nukes were for use against big scary opponents, like the shadows, or that big scary cube that's threatening everyone. "Lower your shields and surrender your ships" gives a really easy delivery method too.

[Darth Wong]

It's worth noting that we've seen the size of the 500MT warheads, and they're not much bigger than standard-issue photon torpedoes. So at the very least, the younger races in B5 have similar or even superior high-yield warhead technology when compared to the Alpha Quadrant in Star Trek.

Not that this says too much about Shadow vessels since they get shredded by these bombs, but it does suggest that the general-tech gap between the B5 YR and ST is not as great as some might feel.

[SirNitram]

You know, just to be an asshole, Gaim nukes have no frequency weakness to exploit. Let's see, weapon that's around a thousand times stronger than a Fed torpedo, no way for Borg shields to adapt to them... What could happen to those Cubes incoming.... I wonder....

[Howedar]

I still haven't seen the SPK issue addressed in any respect.

[brianeyci]

About the 500 MT bombs... why haven't we seen them used more often? Once Earthforce started losing, and humanity was on the brink of extinction, they would have used every weapon at their disposal. If even the 2 MT nukes were standard issue, strap them onto a starfury, fly in close and wreak havoc. Mount 500 MT bombs on missiles, and fire. The Battle of the Line would have been easily won by Earthforce if every Starfury had a 500 MT nuke strapped to its underbelly, and if the destroyers fired nuclear missiles. Why didn't they do this?

1. They're stupid (nobody is saying that as a first resort). If they are stupid, then they won't figure out to use them against the Borg anyway except in limited situations that won't make a difference, just like when they fought the Minbari.

2. The "interceptor" technology makes it difficult to get a missile past without being shot down. The nukes are only useful in limited situations such as hidden in an asteroid. This is hard to believe, because we see starfuries get close enough to suicide warcruisers to great effect. Fast moving missiles, if enough were fired, would get past even concentrated warcruisers' point defense cannons.

3. The nuke technology is rare or not readily deployed.

Photon torpedoes are definitely inferior in terms of yield, but they are ST's heavy yield weapon and are readily deployed and used, unlike these nukes. Also, photon torpedoes definitely move faster than B5 missiles. I remember B5 missiles from a shadow ship moving ridiculously slow, slow enough for a Drakh ship to get in front of it before it hit Sheridan's ship.

A Sharlin warcruisers' weapons are twelve fusion lasers, six neutron cannons, and six missile launchers (this is canon from a screencap). The interesting thing is, their missiles have a 20 megaton yield maximum. So a warcruiser firing its fusion lasers which Babtech considers to be about 85k TW, and taking a DW's 250k limit for Fed shielding against lasers, you could lower a Fed ship's shields with a five seconds of firepower. So surprisingly, Sharlins have comparable offense to Federation ships. For Sharlin defense, Babtech considers a very generous upper limit of 2 megatons, and more realistically one megaton a Sharlin cruiser's endurance. If you take the lower limit of Fed torpedoes at 0.1 MT, then ten ST photon torpedoes can destroy a Sharlin. Ten torpedoes is sufficient to destroy most Federation starships without shields.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I hate to bring up transporters again, but lets face it Borg have used transporters before for mass assimilation.

The name of the episode escapes me, but it was the episode with the "triaxillate phaser geometry" (made famous by Walper). 40 ships with phasers attacked, and were on the verge of destroying the Queen's diamond before the Borg "adapted".

The point is, two cubes and a diamond in orbit around the planet completed assimilation of the planet very quickly, within 10 minutes. They must have had dedicated transporters to beam people on board. We don't know the population of the planet, but it is inferred that the planet is the species' homeworld. Also, 40 ships were fielded by the Feds at Wolf 359, and 40 ships in ST protecting a single homeworld usually indicates a significant population. These 40 ships had at least the same magnitude of firepower as the Feds and greater, because they brought down the diamond's shields in a few seconds.

Since none of the YR have shields, you would expect to see drones being beamed aboard rapidly, or even worse personnel being beamed onto the Borg cube.

Brian

[harbringer]

Of course. But I accept that the Vorlons and Shadow ships have shields, so I don't have to assume shit. It looks like energy absorption and dissipation, and if we assume that physics in the B5 universe are consistent with the physics in the Trek universe, then the way it looks it looks like a hull hugging shield.

Brian

We don't know what the mechanics are or what their ships are made of maybe they like the fancy drones from SG1 can absorb or reflect 90 percent of the energy they recieve, maybe it is just a weapon effect or maybe something else there is no evidence.

Voyager never assimilated anything with the nanoprobes and I at least pointed out that while we KNOW the vorlons and shadows have this self repair and healing tech in one form or another it may not be exactly the same requiring a whole new approach.

Lastly you can only base B5 physics on B5, just like trek physics may only apply to trek (or where it is almost certainly the same somewhere else).

[brianeyci]

That's old Harbringer. I've already conceded that B5 ships don't have shields .

Brian

[harbringer]

Brian you have no imagination like the borg your arguing for. If we do not know what they have there is no way to be even slightly in favour of transporters even being more than a waste of time.

Borg have no tactics other than wade through the enemy, they do have strategic skills (minor) and they do have some fancy tech options. However the shadows and vorlons are more sophisticated with their tactics and strategically with their own funky options.

Whether you like it or not it is possible for an organic creature to be created to grow feasible armour of the required density. Look at the Giant Sloth the Nautillus and various shell fish. Would it require ridiculous resources and some magic way for life to be able to survive in the vacuum sure but IF IT CAN BE DONE IT HAS BEEN DONE HERE. What does this mean? that a) you have to be fair and say they do have tough hulls b) it MAY be possible to transport sections into space but it might not.

Firepower of B5 ships far outweighs their own defensive abilities it maybe possible for both sides to die in moments.

Nukes are available on enough ships that they can be deployed with a moments notice - maybe every ship maybe 1 in 3.

You assume that the shadows and vorlons will turn round before they destroy everything borg in the ST universe. You also assume there will be too few ships available to fight you in the B5 universe you need to find out if this might be possible first (their being a lack of fleet strength other than LOTS).

You assume far too much interoperability with the tech it might not be.

What you should look at is

a) can the Borg fight on two fronts and equally can the vorlons/shadows?

b) can borg ships survive t kill the required number of ships? (we know they can kill the B5 opponants but can they do it fast enough?)

c) what technology is immediately useful

d) will they actually have access to the B5 worlds they want? and can they defeat the garrisons and defences of those worlds.

[brianeyci]

Brian you have no imagination like the borg your arguing for. If we do not know what they have there is no way to be even slightly in favour of transporters even being more than a waste of time.

Excuse me?

Borg have no tactics other than wade through the enemy, they do have strategic skills (minor) and they do have some fancy tech options. However the shadows and vorlons are more sophisticated with their tactics and strategically with their own funky options.

Sure, they can open a jump point and use hyperspace as a weapon like Minbari did. The Shadow ships have cloak. Like it or not the Borg do have tactics other than wade through the enemy. Either in response to S. 8472 or being a natural state of their society, they concentrate large numbers (the entire high-end estimate of population of the Federation) of drones hidden in nebula. The reason why the Borg only use "wade through the enemy" tactics is simple. Their opponents are so outclassed and Borg shields are so powerful compared to their opponents that they rarely need to worry about flanking, maneuvering or archaic tactics. They just fly in close and start shooting. Sound familiar? Think ISD.

People always blast the single cube sent to the Federation, or the idiocy of Borg drones. For the single cube, nobody bothers with the details and always points "lookey Fedz kicked Borg arse, they are stoopid". The reality is that one Borg cube nearly defeated the entire Federation, and one would have been enough again if it were not for the beefup for the Dominion. The Borg lost the first cube through a fluke, if they fixed the fluke no reason they should assume that they would be defeated by such inferior weapons.

For Borg drones, well did you know that ST:FC only had six actors (IIRC) playing the drones? SoN revived Neelix with nanoprobes, we know the Borg can revive people for up to 48 hours after they are dead by Fed standards. Those six drones appeared again and again. You want to know why? The Borg revived them is the only in-universe explaination, also supported by VOY. Sending drones to die is not so stupid if you can revive them later on. You don't want to equip drones with weapons, because you want to assimilate and not kill.

Whether you like it or not it is possible for an organic creature to be created to grow feasible armour of the required density. Look at the Giant Sloth the Nautillus and various shell fish. Would it require ridiculous resources and some magic way for life to be able to survive in the vacuum sure but IF IT CAN BE DONE IT HAS BEEN DONE HERE. What does this mean? that a) you have to be fair and say they do have tough hulls b) it MAY be possible to transport sections into space but it might not.

This is old, I've already said that transporters are out of the discussion because there's too many unknown variables against the Vorlons/Shadows. Transporters would not be a problem against the YR though.

Firepower of B5 ships far outweighs their own defensive abilities it maybe possible for both sides to die in moments.

As I have already acknowledged with my 200k TW upper limit for Shadow cutter beam.

Nukes are available on enough ships that they can be deployed with a moments notice - maybe every ship maybe 1 in 3.

Why weren't they used more frequently? Why do we only see them used as "traps" or in specific situations? With nukes, Earthforce could have had a chance against the Minbari, a better than even chance because a Sharlin gets destroyed by three nukes. From what you're saying all Earthforce destroyer commanders had to do was strap a nuke onto missiles, fire three missiles, and kick Sharlin ass. Or strap nukes onto starfuries for their kami attacks, which were common. That doesn't happen. Nukes are not standard issue, or even if they are they are not the first weapon of choice.

You assume that the shadows and vorlons will turn round before they destroy everything borg in the ST universe. You also assume there will be too few ships available to fight you in the B5 universe you need to find out if this might be possible first (their being a lack of fleet strength other than LOTS).

Of course they will turn around and run before they destroy everything Borg in the ST universe. Unless they want to spend decades hunting every lone cube, the Borg will survive. The Vorlons and Shadows have their own agendas, and as soon as they are able to close the wormhole/crush the Borg, they will go back to their philosophical games. Its not like they have a real hatred of the Borg for any reason, they hate each other far too much.

You assume far too much interoperability with the tech it might not be.

I have already said that assimilation would not be a viable tactic against the Vorlons/Shadows given what we know.

a) can the Borg fight on two fronts and equally can the vorlons/shadows?

The Borg fight on many fronts at once all at once. They fight the Hirogen, the race with quantum slipstream drive and finally defeated them after hundreds of years, they fight the Voth, and everybody in the Delta Quadrant. If anything they are used to holding their own if not taking the offensive.

b) can borg ships survive t kill the required number of ships? (we know they can kill the B5 opponants but can they do it fast enough?)

If you've bothered reading through the thread, you'll see that almost the entire debate has been about figuring out an absolute lower limit for Borg shielding, which right now stands at 40 MT. Ridiculously low, assuming that a few Galaxies can defeat a Borg cube, but still around comparable endurance to 12-60 MT Shadow crabs despite using this absurd figure.

c) what technology is immediately useful

I don't know what you mean by that. I've been comparing firepower estimates throughout the whole thread. It all boils down to firepower for tactical, and brains for strategic. The Vorlons and the Shadows have the brains, but the tactical part is not so clear cut.

d) will they actually have access to the B5 worlds they want? and can they defeat the garrisons and defences of those worlds.

It is not necessary to defeat the garrisons and defenses of B5 worlds, as Borg assimilate worlds by transporting population onto their cubes as I have already mentioned.

Brian

[harbringer]

The nebula trick was operational or strategic in application not tactical, if you don't know the difference we shouldn't have this discussion......

Ok how many of the ST opponants for the borg fight them on their own home turf while they fight on the front lines? and can you garuntee that the borg will tie up the whole vorlon and or the whole shadow fleet?.

We don't know if transporters will even work against the YR ships or planets, mainly they are so big on EM signature that you might not be able to transport (reference all the times transport has failed....)

The nuclear warheads were certainly deployed on all earthforce ships but mounted on guided missiles that couldn't track a mimbari warship due to ECM (the reason the whole earth mimbari war started as well....) for all we know this is still the case and it was only because JS decided to use them as COMMAND detonated mines that they succeeded.

Most of the ambushes were unplanned requiring the resources (ie. nukes) be on hand.

Prove to me that the OR wont just keep atackng the borg and use a small unit to hunt down stragglers before removing the borg from the B5 universe.

Prove that the borg will be able to access the worlds successfully they need to assimilate the population and that the OR wont simply vape them too. After all the OR know the history of earth as well or better than we do and know what Scipius Africanus' response would be

You simply cannot prove that a) the borg are better than tactically inept and b) sufficent force could not be brought to defeat in detail the borg by various means.

And if you were creative you could without making the borg into something else defeat the OR.

[SirNitram]

Oh boy, more stupidity from Brian.

Do you want to apply this 'We didn't see them do this often! Therefore, for some reason, they can't!' stuff to the Borg? I guarantee it'll slaughter them in this vs. Otherwise, concede your hypocrisy.

[Antares]

About the 500 MT bombs... why haven't we seen them used more often?

Just a thought:
The Black Star flag ship of the Minbari was destroyed by some unknown yield warheads mounted on asteroids during the Human-Minbari war by Sheridan.

At least it shows, that those weapons are used if necessary.

In addition i have always wondered what those valves to the sides of a Omega destroyer are:

According to the scale of the cruisers (which is the original B5 lightwave conversion) those valves are roughly 10m in diameter and an Omega got 36 of them. From valve to valve the omega is about 80m.

There are two possible/obvious explanations for them:
1)Escapepods
2)Missile silos
For 1) they are too far way from the rotation section which is supposed to hold the accommodation for the crew. In addition they are located in a weapons section, so i guess 2) is more applicable.

So if the above is true and behind a 10m diameter valve is at least a 4-5m tube housing a missile with about 2-3m diameter and a length of at least 20m those missiles should be able to compete with todays long range missiles in terms of size.

We are currently able to build at least 50MT fusion bombs (Tzar Bomb) and the fusion bombs of G'Kar are rated at 500 MT which would easily fit into the warhead of such a missile according to their size.

So would it be wrong to assume something in between 50 and 500 MT yield?

[Antares]

Oh dear, it's 72 silos not 36, sorry

[Eleas]

Abysmal arcs of fire. I doubt those are missile silos.

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm some form of decoy ?

[Rye]

Just a thought:
The Black Star flag ship of the Minbari was destroyed by some unknown yield warheads mounted on asteroids during the Human-Minbari war by Sheridan.

They were stated at having 2 MT yield.

We are currently able to build at least 50MT fusion bombs (Tzar Bomb) and the fusion bombs of G'Kar are rated at 500 MT which would easily fit into the warhead of such a missile according to their size.

So would it be wrong to assume something in between 50 and 500 MT yield?

I remind you that the tsar bomba was enormous and the Gaim made the 500 MT-ers. I suspect that EA does have access to >2MT nukes though, since he just asked a general question about how many nukes were left, to which the person answered there were 2 left, with 2MT warheads. If they were all 2 MT there wouldn't really have been a reason to say they were 2 MT. Of course, this could also mean the other nukes they stock could've been under 2 MT, but given the size of the Gaim bombs I suspect they were greater than that.

[brianeyci]

Oh boy, more stupidity from Brian.

Do you want to apply this 'We didn't see them do this often! Therefore, for some reason, they can't!' stuff to the Borg? I guarantee it'll slaughter them in this vs. Otherwise, concede your hypocrisy.

No, you're missing what I'm saying. Remember Robin Hood and his Merry Men? Klingon army need to be certain size to use artillery ring a bell? You were the one who pointed it out to me that it is retarded to assume standard armadment of a one-shot wonder. I don't see why we should think there would be a mass conversion of tactics against the Borg to use nuclear missiles. They didn't start mounting 500 MT bombs on starfuries against Shadow ships, and who knows whether or not nukes are standard issue aboard ship. Mines are, but I don't believe we've seen a nuclear missile. Earthforce didn't even start using 500 MT bombs against the Minbari during the war. Either they didn't think of using them and won't against the Borg, or the 500 MT bombs and even nukes themselves are rare on the battlefield. According to BabTech, a Minbari cruiser has a maximum endurance of around 2 megatons, and Young says that is incredibly generous. I don't see why they would start using them against the Borg if they didn't use them against the Minbari.

Brian