Tactical Stupidity in Science Fictions

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Re: Not quite

Post by Enlightenment »

Patrick Degan wrote: The Shadows were also threatening his own homeworld and his revolution against Clark. They were the enemy at the time and he had the means and opportunity to do maximum damage to the enemy.
The principle does have limits. For instance, it would not have been a particularly good idea for Afghanistan (or anyone downwind) if a random Talibanite objected to the American disposal of the Talitrash by detonating a few nukes over Washington. Severely annoying a superior power isn't a good idea even during war.
That, quite simply, is absurd. Sheridan's action has nothing whatsoever to do with the Vorlons deciding to commit wholesale xenocide.
Kosh 2 certainly seemed to think otherwise when it said "a door has been opened."

There was a real risk that the attack on ZHD would lead the Shadows to disperse their population into more secure locations. From the Vorlon perspective, a campaign of preemptive strikes were preferable to allowing the Shadows to further entrench themselves. None of this would have been necessary if the Shadows hadn't been stirred up by some two-bit jackass on a mission of personal revenge.
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Re: Fighters

Post by Sea Skimmer »

BioDroid wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Our "entire arsenal of ground-attack fighters" are designed differently from our supersonic combat fighters. Or hadn't you noticed that? We don't use F-16s to strafe tanks because they'd overshoot the targets far too quickly for the pilots to get a lock on them. Which is why we use A-10s for such missions.
Carefull, your ignorance is showing again! I really can't believe you just said that...especially giving me the example with the F-16. Here we go then...

The F-16C/D is what is called a "multi-role fighter" Say it with me MULTI-ROLE-FIGHTER. It is capable of air-to-air and air-to-ground combat, including, yep you guesed it...killing tanks. While it normally does not do it with it's cannon (The F-16 cannon only carries 500 rnds) it uses a variety of other munitions to achieve the task including rockets, missiles, and advanced cluster munitions. It's more than capable of taking out tanks with the cannon if absolutely neccessary, because it has (repeat after me) a throttle....say it again THROTTLE.

You might also realize (thou I doubt it) that there are quite a few other strike aircraft capable of breaking the sound barrier that are also used against ground targets. The F-15E and the F/A-18 are also more than capable in this arena. While you're studying up on your tactics, you might also want to study up on aircraft tactics and capabilities as well.
As should you.


It would be pretty pointless to use an M61 against tanks. Even the little PT-76 is proof against the HE rounds from all angles, and the AP round would be hard pressed to even damage a tank with hits on the ill armored engine deck. Hits against the sides, turret or frontal armor would be deflected or shatter, even if the target was an original T-34 or Sherman.

The heaviest armored fighting vehicle that the M61 can reliably kill is a BTR-80, a wheeled APC.

That’s why the A-10 hauls around a 30mm cannon that has five times to muzzle energy and proper anti tank ammunition.
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You keep missing the point

Post by Patrick Degan »

The Shadows were also threatening his own homeworld and his revolution against Clark. They were the enemy at the time and he had the means and opportunity to do maximum damage to the enemy.

The principle does have limits. For instance, it would not have been a particularly good idea for Afghanistan (or anyone downwind) if a random Talibanite objected to the American disposal of the Talitrash by detonating a few nukes over Washington. Severely annoying a superior power isn't a good idea even during war.


Actually, if they had had that capability, the likelihood is that they might have decapitated the political and military command and control structure of the superpower making war upon their nation, particularly as such an attack would not have been expected (even after Sept. 11th).

In terms of the Shadow War, the result of Sheridan's strike was to compel the Shadows to prematurely evacuate Z'ha'Dum and to go to ground on scattered planets.

That, quite simply, is absurd. Sheridan's action has nothing whatsoever to do with the Vorlons deciding to commit wholesale xenocide.

Kosh 2 certainly seemed to think otherwise when it said "a door has been opened."


You've just bolstered my case. The Vorlons made the conscious decision to eliminate the Shadows, when they had the option not to start a campaign of xenocide. The Shadows were weakened and in retreat, and the Vorlons would have had all the time they could have wanted to better prepare their forces for the general war just by following the strategy they were committed to. They already had the upper hand, and their survival was certainly not at stake. No matter what Sheridan may or may not have done, the Vorlons were the ones who opted for xenocide. Again, Sheridan cannot be held responsible for the decisions of the Vorlons.

There was a real risk that the attack on ZHD would lead the Shadows to disperse their population into more secure locations. From the Vorlon perspective, a campaign of preemptive strikes were preferable to allowing the Shadows to further entrench themselves. None of this would have been necessary if the Shadows hadn't been stirred up by some two-bit jackass on a mission of personal revenge.

So, that invalidates any Vorlon responsibility for deciding to commit xenocide? Justifying a fundamentally unjustifiable action on their part? A funny way of looking at the matter, I must say.

Your case grows weaker with each post.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

That could probably be the case I admit it, though it doesn't speak too well of the intelligence brought in by the former imperials who defected to the rebellion (and I do mean defected!)

This also doesn't speak well of General Rieekan who ordered infantry into the trenches against them. (Which I acknoledge wasn't part of my original bitch, but since it was brought up...) But I might be inclined to chalk it up to "We thought we could take the walkers out from a distance and they were just there to cover a possible infantry advance.
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Post by Akm72 »

I don't think the battle for Hoth can be regarded as an example of tactical stupidity by either side. Unless you are willing to make the worst possible assumptions in each case of course :)

The Imperials.

The mission of the initial ground assault, led by General Veers, was to destroy the Rebel power generator using Walkers.
This would allow a second wave of infantry led by Darth Vader to land and secure the Rebel base.
It is also likly that the Infantry transported by the first assault were used to secure the landing area for the second wave.
The intention was that any rebels who managed to launch their spacecraft would be captured when they reached the blockade.

The case against the Imperials is that they failed to secure the area around the Rebel base, allowing numerous Rebel ships to escape.

This is not a good case; If the Imperials had taken the time to organise and land enough forces to secure the entire area surrounding the rebel base, it would also have given the rebels enough time to evacuate before those forces arrived on the battlefield. It should be remembered that the entire battle was over, and the final evacuation complete, only 10's of minutes after the first Walkers appeared over the horizon.

The Rebels.

The basic rebel evacuation plan is quite good;
A powerful energy field to buy time.
A powerful Ion cannon to knock holes in a blockade.
A ground force with artillary and air support to slow down any ground assault.

The problems they faced is basicly one of time; they had only hours to prepare their defensive lines, while simultaneously trying to pack as much equipment as possible into the transports. They probably always intended that their ground forces would be as strong as the other elements of their defence, but never had time to complete the preparations.
The big questions are always; 'Why didn't they know that their blasters would be useless against the Imperial Walkers?' and 'Why didn't they use their X-wings with the powerful proton torpedoes?'

I would suggest that they DID know that the AT-ATs main armour would be too strong for their blasters, but they hoped to be able to find an exploitable weak-point (which explains why they spent to long firing ineffective blasters at them). If they didn't know it is difficult to explain why Rouge squadron spent time coming up with a desperate backup plan involving harpoon guns and tow cables.

As to the X-wing issue, I'd suggest that their are three possible explanations, which should be considered before falling back on stupidity as the only explaination;
1) The X-wings had some Hoth-specific technical problem which effected their combat systems, but not their basic ability to take off and land.
2) X-wings are actually not very good at low speed and low altitude in an atmosphere, and would never be considered for use in that role. Maybe their repulsorlift system is optimised for simple take-off and landing only, and do not support hard combat maneuvering like a dedicated combat speeder. Also they are much bigger targets then the little speeders.
3) Proton torpedoes may not be ideal weapons for use against mobile ground targets.
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Post by DodoBrd16 »

Quote
______________________________________________________________________

B5: Why did President Clark send his entire fleet to meet Sheridan at Mars? By doing so, he left Earth to be defended only by a few weapon's platforms. A static defense satellite is nothing compared to a mobile capship with a human crew.
_____________________________________________________________________


Cause if he did that he would have left numerous colonies vulnerable to attack.

Also, had clark actually dedicated the defense platform to defending earth instead of trying to fry it, Sheridans attack force would have gotten pounded. Those heavy part cannons could work an Omega over with ease.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Incidentally, in most of Tolkien's battles the fights make no sense, tactically. Especially in the Battle of Five Armies.

The elves and dwarves held the high ground, and so they decided to monopolize on this advantage by firing one shot and then charging the goblins? What? Wouldn't it be better to continue firing at them and let the goblins charge up the hill towards your forces, which would then fight them while they were both tired and suffering in terms of morale due to the casualties they had already taken?
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

If they didn't know it is difficult to explain why Rouge squadron spent time coming up with a desperate backup plan involving harpoon guns and tow cables.
Hmm...this is difficult to explain....if they are able to take down walkers with conventional blaster fire, why would they have TOW cables? Maybe it was just a precaution or the TOW cables have another purpose.
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Re: A new hope rings to mind...

Post by Soulman »

DodoBrd16 wrote: Next Gen.... well the borg thing has already been mentioned....but I feel it needs to be again....One cube didnt work....two certainly would have...why the heck didnt they do what they claim to be able to and adapt your tactics...
Actually in BOBW sending one cube is smart. In TNG the Borg were portrayed as wanting to get technology. In BOBW the Feds had no chance, therefore their tech isn't worth much, the threat of a Borg invasion would spur the Feds to develop better tech. Simply repeat a few times to build their tech up a bit until they start to present a bit of a challenge. The send a few dozen cubes to bulldoze them and take the juicy tech.

Of course the Borg stupidity of First Contact and Voyager cannot be explained and spoiled the Borg which were an excellent enemy. But just taking the early Borg actions into consideration they weren't stupid.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Unfortunately for the Borg they underwent a transformation from moderate badasses to pathetic fools.
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The Battle of Chin'toka

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Who would be stupid enough to build orbital defense platforms that don't have independent, self-contained power sources? The Dominion of course! During the Battle of Chin'toka, the Dominion used defense satellites that were powered from an external source. Once Starfleet was able to destroy this power source, the entire system went down. Very nice...
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Post by Defiant »

DodoBrd16 wrote:Quote
______________________________________________________________________

B5: Why did President Clark send his entire fleet to meet Sheridan at Mars? By doing so, he left Earth to be defended only by a few weapon's platforms. A static defense satellite is nothing compared to a mobile capship with a human crew.
_____________________________________________________________________


Cause if he did that he would have left numerous colonies vulnerable to attack.

Also, had clark actually dedicated the defense platform to defending earth instead of trying to fry it, Sheridans attack force would have gotten pounded. Those heavy part cannons could work an Omega over with ease.
But the Liberation fleet had already hit most of the colonies at that point, keeping them for colony defense would be pointless.

As for the platforms, I don't think they were intended to defend Earth exclusively. The main particle cannon on the satellites took several minutes to arm. They would get blasted before they even fired in an invasion scenario unless they were design to rely on a defensive force to occupy the enemy ships until the platforms could fire.
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Post by Subnormal »

I still think my Y-wing Stupidity is still worth it's thoughts. Think about it a Y-wing has a 360 degree rotating turret, and yet they all stick to the exhaust port. I mean there are three in the trench at a time, only one needs to hit the port, why didn't the others give cover fire? Those pesky rebel pilots are retarded and devoid of tactical knowledge.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Maybe because they only had one pilot in the Y-Wings, who was rather preoccupied with flying the thing?
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Post by Subnormal »

[cough]ASTRO MECH DROID[/cough]
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Ah, ok.

Well, no idea then. Did all the Y-Wings have astromechs?
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Post by Subnormal »

Of course they did. Official evidence is in the films. And R2 asked(through computer modual) luke if he could fly the xwing in ESB and Luke said he would take it from there.

The dang pilots could of let the droids fly then they man the guns, the Ties had no shields they would of been laser fodder.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

countdooku wrote:I still think my Y-wing Stupidity is still worth it's thoughts. Think about it a Y-wing has a 360 degree rotating turret, and yet they all stick to the exhaust port. I mean there are three in the trench at a time, only one needs to hit the port, why didn't the others give cover fire? Those pesky rebel pilots are retarded and devoid of tactical knowledge.
According to the EU, the Y-Wings flown against the DS were one seater models that did not have rotating ion cannons (only ones that fired straight ahead, like in the games). There was also a two seat model that did have a rotating turret, which was fired by the gunner, who sat behind the pilot (like in the T47s).
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Incidentally, I have no idea why the astromechs could not fly the starfighters for them. It is possible that the ability to fire off axis was removed for that model of Y-Wings. It is also possible that the astromechs were unable to fly the starfighters due to the heavy jamming around the DS. It is also possible that astromechs are incapable of flying Y-Wings, but none of those appear to be likely.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
If they didn't know it is difficult to explain why Rouge squadron spent time coming up with a desperate backup plan involving harpoon guns and tow cables.
Hmm...this is difficult to explain....if they are able to take down walkers with conventional blaster fire, why would they have TOW cables? Maybe it was just a precaution or the TOW cables have another purpose.
In the EU it is stated that the real purpose for those "weapons" was to drag cargo along, or to carry it on the T47. Luke was improvising when he tried his other tactic.
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Post by Akm72 »

Master of Ossus wrote:In the EU it is stated that the real purpose for those "weapons" was to drag cargo along, or to carry it on the T47. Luke was improvising when he tried his other tactic.
If that is true, why did they bother carrying gunners, who's only functions was to operate the a useless 'cargo dragger'. Why have a harpoon gun and gunner to snag cargo at all, couldn't they just stop for a minute and hook up the load manually?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The gunner's job might have to do with monitoring the load in flight; he could in part help control its movement by adjusting the harpoon gun. Plus the ability to carry more then one person would no doubt often be useful.
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Post by Akm72 »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The gunner's job might have to do with monitoring the load in flight; he could in part help control its movement by adjusting the harpoon gun. Plus the ability to carry more then one person would no doubt often be useful.
That dosn't explain why they were carrying the gunners during the battle of Hoth, if they hadn't already planned to use the harpoon/tow cable to attack them.
It also dosn't explain why they have a harpoon gun to capture the cargo, when it is easier and more reliable to stop next to the cargo and attach it manually.
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Post by Akm72 »

Akm72 wrote: ...to attack them.
By them I mean the AT-ATs of course (oops) :oops:
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