SG1 9x04 (Ties the Bind) & SGA 2x04 (Duet) Discussion Th

[Zac Naloen]

The gate isn't a computer

I disagree, the gate can function perfectly well without the DHD. It has all the necessary memory/control software inside. If you disconnected a gate from its dhd it isn't immediately unable to dial out. It can still create wormholes or recieve them as long as the event horizon isn't blocked.

All the DHD does is, as you said, is act as a router. You can still access the network without one.. its just a slightly more complicated process. The gate contains the motherboard, and sends the warning signals when something isn't right. The DHD just interprets the information the gate gives it and acts on it.

The Gate IS the computer. The DHD acts as all the peripheral hardware.

[Alyeska]

*snip*

Okay, whatever you say.

How do people see while travelling through the wormhole as energy? Remember that discussion I keep putting forward and you keep dodging away from?

How do they see? Well how do they feel it? How can they call it a rush and call it a bad trip with a bad connection? We don't know. They are aware of something somehow.

In Red Sky Carter describes the travel as a rough ride. She didn't say the exit was rough. A ride is a passage through something. The episode even starts with a very unusual "traditional" gate effect and that imediately goes into the vision of either Carter or O'Neill toubling head over heels out of the gate at high speed. After that Daniel asks what the hell happened and Carter says that something caused them to have a rough ride, ie trip through the gate.

How are they aware? I don't know. And yet on more then one ocassion they've talked about being aware of the ride to some fashion. Maybe they can't see, maybe they can only feel. The materialization and dematerialization would be the same on both ends. But a bad connection between the ends is what causes the people to be sickened by the ride.

[Alyeska]

The gate isn't a computer

I disagree, the gate can function perfectly well without the DHD. It has all the necessary memory/control software inside. If you disconnected a gate from its dhd it isn't immediately unable to dial out. It can still create wormholes or recieve them as long as the event horizon isn't blocked.

All the DHD does is, as you said, is act as a router. You can still access the network without one.. its just a slightly more complicated process. The gate contains the motherboard, and sends the warning signals when something isn't right. The DHD just interprets the information the gate gives it and acts on it.

The Gate IS the computer. The DHD acts as all the peripheral hardware.

The gate can't make connections beyond very simple ones. Other gates can dial the disconnected gate, but the disconnected gate can only dial very near cordinates due to stellar drift. Stargates do not function perfectly well without DHDs. This has been made clear in several SG1 episodes and the issue of their having to create their own dialing computer. And the information the gate sends the dialing computer is more then just cordinate information.

[SirNitram]

You're still leaping from 'They can change how they interperate the symbols', which is what is actually shown in Avenger 2.0, to 'They can completely change how they form the wormhole mechanically, massively changing it's appearance and overhauling stability' with.. Nothing to support it.

And its a leap to assume that an old gate can change how the wormhole forms withouth a mechanical intervention.

'It's a leap to assume changing what the hardware does requires changing the hardware!' Not in any sensible world.

How does the Stargate itself change wormhole creation styles without a mechanical influence? Well it has to be a software issue. We know the DHD itself is critical in the wormhole creation process and I've just listed two primary examples of this. Both from season 5. Red Sky and 48 hours. Furthermore we know the DHDs are constantly talking to each other. They would be the means of spreading the information. DHD sends the stargate updated information, Stargate then changes its method in establishing the wormhole. Short of mechanical intervention (which is unlikely), software is how the entire thing works.

Bullshit! Bullshit, utter bullshit. Sending an 'Interrupt' signal or a 'Dump cache' signal is not analogous to a complete change in the mechanics of the wormhole. You're now just bullshitting hardcore because you can't support your conclusion.

And the DHD being critical in this process is also supported by the minor fact that when Earth dialed Peagasus we didn't get this information spreading throughout the system. Earth has no DHD to use to spread any potential information and the Earth gate still had the old effects throughout season 8.

I can't wait for what utter bullshit will come when the Earth Gate uses that graphic. Oh, wait, I know: You'll just quietly avoid it.

You have not proven that it is even likely that software governments the visible appearance of the wormhole. You have flat-out lied by saying it's a leap to claim it would require 'mechanical intervention', because guess what, it's most logically a change in hardware, and guess what you need to do to update hardware?

Furthermore, you're flat out bullshitting about the Pegasus gates updating the network. Because we know that the Atlantis Gate Network linked with Earth when it still had a working DHD; Before I Sleep.

[TheDarkling]

Yes, I completely agree with all of that. The DHD is a power source and navigation computer. It doesn't mean to say the DHD controls the make up of the wormhole, and thus potentially the way it looks.

Maybe or maybe not, the DHD controls a lot more than just navigation, for example it can wipe the gate buffer and force what is in the buffer to be reintegrated.

It also handles a number of errors the gate has for example the origin DHD being destroyed mid transit.

Now whether the wormholes nature if hardwired or not is an open question but if it isn't hardwired then the DHD should be able to alter it because it is linked to the gate's software and has a fair degree of control over and interconnectivity with it.

[SirNitram]

*snip*

Okay, whatever you say.

How do people see while travelling through the wormhole as energy? Remember that discussion I keep putting forward and you keep dodging away from?

How do they see? Well how do they feel it? How can they call it a rush and call it a bad trip with a bad connection? We don't know. They are aware of something somehow.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. A sudden change in your balance(Which even a small change in local gravity or air pressure will cause), will throw you off or make it feel like a rush. Getting annihilated and rebuilt will certainly have it's effects. The 'bad connections' have generally had a very uncomfortable exit; see Solitudes.

Now you're just being flat-out dishonest, Alyeska. Go take five and realize you're not debating anymore, you're making crap up. This is phasers out of the torpedo tube and nothing more.

[Akaramu Shinja]

How do they see? Well how do they feel it? How can they call it a rush and call it a bad trip with a bad connection? We don't know. They are aware of something somehow.

So being demolecularised isn't a rush? Or appearing in another place seemingly instantly isn't a rush? This is circular, I've said these things before and you just ignored them.

In Red Sky Carter describes the travel as a rough ride. She didn't say the exit was rough. A ride is a passage through something. The episode even starts with a very unusual "traditional" gate effect and that imediately goes into the vision of either Carter or O'Neill toubling head over heels out of the gate at high speed. After that Daniel asks what the hell happened and Carter says that something caused them to have a rough ride, ie trip through the gate.

This translate to being able to see? While in the form of ENERGY? Everything you present lends more to it being all about the turning into and out of energy, as opposed to being shot through a wormhole while ENERGY. Emphasis on BEING ENERGY.

How are they aware?

They aren't. You're making this up on vague quotes and descriptions that also lend to a far more plausible reason.

And yet on more then one ocassion they've talked about being aware of the ride to some fashion.

Never the trip. The feeling of it, sure, but they never specifically have stated anything about the trip, as in the period taking place as you're energy travelling through a wormhole.

Maybe they can't see, maybe they can only feel.

So how are they aware of the visual style of the wormhole? There is no proof that what we see is anything more than a viewer perspective. Like a title sequence or "Previously on..".

The materialization and dematerialization would be the same on both ends. But a bad connection between the ends is what causes the people to be sickened by the ride.

You're assuming that it is the travel while in a state of energy that causes people sick. You are basing this off nothing more than vague comments that, as I've said already, lend better to it just being about the process after travelling, or whatever takes place once you reach either end.

The sad part is, you'll live in this fantasy world about all the gates updating in order to explain the fact that they decided to bring the gate visual effect up to the same as Atlantis for this season and most likely all future seasons.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Furthermore, you're flat out bullshitting about the Pegasus gates updating the network. Because we know that the Atlantis Gate Network linked with Earth when it still had a working DHD; Before I Sleep.

Ah can't believe I forgot that incident! This should more or less completely destroy his half baked argument/theories.

[Zac Naloen]

The gate can't make connections beyond very simple ones. Other gates can dial the disconnected gate, but the disconnected gate can only dial very near cordinates due to stellar drift.

For the first hundred or so years the gate can connect to wherever the hell you want it too, stellar drift is a slow process it won't have an immediate effect. Which is what i was talking about.

Stargates do not function perfectly well without DHDs. This has been made clear in several SG1 episodes and the issue of their having to create their own dialing computer. And the information the gate sends the dialing computer is more then just cordinate information.

The problem with creating their own DHD is that they have no idea what the gate is saying to them half the time. In Red Sky, the gate REFUSED to start up until carter found the "ignore" command for the gate. This suggests the gate has more say over the process than you give it credit for. Ultimately the DHD has final say, after all its what the person uses to control the gate. But the gate has built in safeguards that warn you when your about to do something stupid. Much like the bios on a computer.
Hell my motherboard literally tells me (in a female voice too ) when i've fucked up overclocking, or my fan isn't plugged in etc. Same situation here, Stargate commands DHD just doesn't understand. The DHD is your peripheral hardware, that contains your harddrive with your OS. The Gate is still the main processor though.

But all this doesn't take away from the fact that even without the DHD the gate functions. maybe not perfectly, but what computer does when all your doing is hitting it with electricity hoping it does what you want it too in the way you want it too?

[Alyeska]

Nitram, the issue has to be software. This we agree on (I hope). The question is, how does this update procede through the network. Your calling my statements bullshit by saying the DHD is involved in the process because the DHD can't possibly patch the Stargates software. And yet the Stargate can patch another Stargates software. Come on man. I'm trying to look at the available information. Lay off the attitude.

I can't wait for what utter bullshit will come when the Earth Gate uses that graphic. Oh, wait, I know: You'll just quietly avoid it.

Hate to burst your bubble, but we've already seen the new graphic with the Earth Stargate.

You have not proven that it is even likely that software governments the visible appearance of the wormhole. You have flat-out lied by saying it's a leap to claim it would require 'mechanical intervention', because guess what, it's most logically a change in hardware, and guess what you need to do to update hardware?

Now I don't even know what your arguing for Nitram. Might as well try and get things back to square one and determine our respective positions.

Mine: The new wormhole effect is an update through the system. A software update and the DHDs are part of the process that spreads this information.

What is your position?

Furthermore, you're flat out bullshitting about the Pegasus gates updating the network. Because we know that the Atlantis Gate Network linked with Earth when it still had a working DHD; Before I Sleep.

Knock it off Nitram. I forgot about that episode. Now I wish I had the season 8 Box set so I could check episode near the end of season 8 to see if they showed any Stargate graphics.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Furthermore, you're flat out bullshitting about the Pegasus gates updating the network. Because we know that the Atlantis Gate Network linked with Earth when it still had a working DHD; Before I Sleep.

Knock it off Nitram. I forgot about that episode. Now I wish I had the season 8 Box set so I could check episode near the end of season 8 to see if they showed any Stargate graphics.

The Atlantis Gate dialed back to Earth so the Ancients could leave. Remember, they were leaving Atlantis underwater so the Wraith couldn't get to it. If they dialed back to Earth all those thousands of years ago, why is the Earth and Milkyway network using the old SG-1 visual?

This still doesn't address the issue that you have presented nothing showing that they are remotely aware of what the wormhole looks like. So the look of the wormhole still lies in the area of "probably not mattering as it isn't entirely in universe".

[SirNitram]

Nitram, the issue has to be software. This we agree on (I hope). The question is, how does this update procede through the network. Your calling my statements bullshit by saying the DHD is involved in the process because the DHD can't possibly patch the Stargates software. And yet the Stargate can patch another Stargates software. Come on man. I'm trying to look at the available information. Lay off the attitude.

No, we don't agree on it being software. I have called you a bullshitter because you have yet to prove it. My 'attitude' is because you are flat out making things up at this point(Hell, you claim Red Sky supports your idea, when the Gate refuses to connect despite having no DHD!).

I can't wait for what utter bullshit will come when the Earth Gate uses that graphic. Oh, wait, I know: You'll just quietly avoid it.

Hate to burst your bubble, but we've already seen the new graphic with the Earth Stargate.

Therefore it cannot be part of the DHD. You're therefore quite wrong.

You have not proven that it is even likely that software governments the visible appearance of the wormhole. You have flat-out lied by saying it's a leap to claim it would require 'mechanical intervention', because guess what, it's most logically a change in hardware, and guess what you need to do to update hardware?

Now I don't even know what your arguing for Nitram. Might as well try and get things back to square one and determine our respective positions.

My position is that you're wrong. I don't have a theory, but I don't need that to knock huge holes out of your claims.

Mine: The new wormhole effect is an update through the system. A software update and the DHDs are part of the process that spreads this information.

Can't be; Earth has no DHD but has the new appearance.

What is your position?

That you're completely wrong.

Furthermore, you're flat out bullshitting about the Pegasus gates updating the network. Because we know that the Atlantis Gate Network linked with Earth when it still had a working DHD; Before I Sleep.

Knock it off Nitram. I forgot about that episode. Now I wish I had the season 8 Box set so I could check episode near the end of season 8 to see if they showed any Stargate graphics.

Can't help there.

[Alyeska]

That you're completely wrong.

Your not even trying to be helpful anymore. All your doing is attacking everything I say. How the hell can I discuss anything with you when you don't even present a counter case and all I can do is defend my statements against your attacks when you won't present anything for me to bounce my ideas off of.

[SirNitram]

That you're completely wrong.

Your not even trying to be helpful anymore. All your doing is attacking everything I say. How the hell can I discuss anything with you when you don't even present a counter case and all I can do is defend my statements against your attacks when you won't present anything for me to bounce my ideas off of.

All I'm doing is showing that your statements are completely wrong. If you can't handle the idea that stupid will be mocked, perhaps you should get off the board where 'Mockery of stupid people' is on the front. I have cited examples of why your theory is bullshit. I have cited where you have been downright dishonest.

Do you rebutt this? No. You whine that I'm not being nice. I'm not required to be nice, Aly. You tossed out stuff that was wrong, and got grouchy when people called you on it. Either debate or concede. Shut the fuck up if you're just gonna whine how hard it is to do anything when people show you're full of shit.

[Akaramu Shinja]

That you're completely wrong.

Your not even trying to be helpful anymore. All your doing is attacking everything I say. How the hell can I discuss anything with you when you don't even present a counter case and all I can do is defend my statements against your attacks when you won't present anything for me to bounce my ideas off of.

I think you're mistaking a friendly discussion to discover the truth with, your theories being proven wrong, your bullshit being refuted and your ability to support your crap scrutinized.

[Zac Naloen]

In duets they actually took control crystals out of the gate, have we seen them do this before?

I always assumed these things were actually built into the design.. guess not..

shows hardware updates are physically possible for the gate though.

[SirNitram]

In duets they actually took control crystals out of the gate, have we seen them do this before?

I always assumed these things were actually built into the design.. guess not..

shows hardware updates are physically possible for the gate though.

In Home they also perform a hardware mod, though it was to allow an eight symbol address.

[Zac Naloen]

In duets they actually took control crystals out of the gate, have we seen them do this before?

I always assumed these things were actually built into the design.. guess not..

shows hardware updates are physically possible for the gate though.

In Home they also perform a hardware mod, though it was to allow an eight symbol address.

was that the season one ep that turned out too all be a dream?

[SirNitram]

was that the season one ep that turned out too all be a dream?

Yes, but as the faux-General Hammod pointed out, they were stopped before they completed the eight symbol dial because it would have worked. So we can safely say that hardware modifications are quite possible and apparently easy, as it only took a little while and was relatively unproblematic, despite fears.

[Zac Naloen]

was that the season one ep that turned out too all be a dream?

Yes, but as the faux-General Hammod pointed out, they were stopped before they completed the eight symbol dial because it would have worked. So we can safely say that hardware modifications are quite possible and apparently easy, as it only took a little while and was relatively unproblematic, despite fears.

ah yes, i vaguely recall that episode now, didn't they take some of the atlantis gate components with them to the planet, preventing atlantis from being able to dial out whilst they were gone? so gate components are plug and play. and presumably backwards compatible if previous ancient inventions are anything to go by.

[SirNitram]

was that the season one ep that turned out too all be a dream?

Yes, but as the faux-General Hammod pointed out, they were stopped before they completed the eight symbol dial because it would have worked. So we can safely say that hardware modifications are quite possible and apparently easy, as it only took a little while and was relatively unproblematic, despite fears.

ah yes, i vaguely recall that episode now, didn't they take some of the atlantis gate components with them to the planet, preventing atlantis from being able to dial out whilst they were gone? so gate components are plug and play. and presumably backwards compatible if previous ancient inventions are anything to go by.

Not quite. Atlantis was able to function, but it wouldn't be able to dial Earth, and there would be a signifigant chance they'd break the Gate on that world.

[Zac Naloen]

Not quite. Atlantis was able to function, but it wouldn't be able to dial Earth, and there would be a signifigant chance they'd break the Gate on that world.

i don't have to episode on file and my memory is faulty, did they take a dhd component or a gate component?

if it was a gate component the fifth race no longer works as an episode, as they aren't using the gate used by the ancients, but rather Ra's gate at that point.

[NecronLord]

It is eminently possible for the stargate to contain software elements inside it. As a computer system, it contains at the very least

1. Processor capabilities
2. Wireless interface capabilities (see Threads. Furthermore, there are no evident physical connections between the DHD and the stargate) which operate as both input and output devices.
3. Main Memory (storing reintegration data in its 'crystals')
4. Some form of interstellar transceiver for establishing a wormhole. Though this could be argued against

This by its very nature necessitates sophisticated software capabilities, and it is highly likely that the stargate can be reprogrammed by another stargate, or the 'master crystal' set of Atlantis. While you raise an interesting point about why this did not happen when the Ancients dialled Earth in Before I Sleep, (see below) you are incorrect in stating that it is flat out possible for one stargate to reprogram another. It replicates just about every function of a computer, it must have software elements. We know it is able to receive instructions from compatible devices. There is no reason to assume that the Stargate or the DHD on Atlantis could not send new commands and programmes to the Earth Gate.

The DHD is a user friendly 'address book.' There is no reason it would be required to update the gate's 'drivers' in the same way it is required when you update the 'address book' with a correlative update.

Why, you ask, rightly, did the Ancients not update this in Before I Sleep. The explanation I would give would be that they didn't go straight to earth in Before I Sleep. The Antarctic ice sheet could have been there by then (it was millions of years between their leaving for Pegasus and their relatively recent return). Indeed, if they went directly, why did they not revive Aiyana, who was right next to the gate? It is quite possible the Earth 'gate was buried in Before I Sleep, and they went somewhere else and then on to Earth by ship.

[EDIT LOG: Crysals <-- Crystals.]

[Darth Yoshi]

i don't have to episode on file and my memory is faulty, did they take a dhd component or a gate component?

if it was a gate component the fifth race no longer works as an episode, as they aren't using the gate used by the ancients, but rather Ra's gate at that point.

Maybe the component in Home was something similar to a boot-up disk, and O'neill wrote a copy from scratch.

[StarshipTitanic]

All your doing is attacking everything I say. How the hell can I discuss anything with you when you don't even present a counter case and all I can do is defend my statements against your attacks when you won't present anything for me to bounce my ideas off of.

Guess what, I already did give you something to play with: No one sees anything and the graphics are a part of the third person, omniscient narrative.

I can't believe that I, and everyone else, has missed this. When they send a MALP through the gate, it doesn't see a thing. There's only static until it's rematerialized at the end of the gate. Disprove that you dishonest, bitchy coward.

If all you have are bullshit ideas supported by your specious conjecture and augmented by incessant whining, I don't want you near enough to my more sound ideas to bounce things off. I have standards.