Battletech technical archive

[PainRack]

Oh, and the book is an RPG supplement, so the players just got shoved straight in that mess.

I forgot. Just how on earth were the players supposed to disable that warship again?

[Swindle1984]

Oh, and the book is an RPG supplement, so the players just got shoved straight in that mess.

I forgot. Just how on earth were the players supposed to disable that warship again?

Probably by getting the to the jump drive and sabotaging the liquid helium balloon. That's how it's done in a couple of the books.

Of course, that only prevents it from jumping. Doesn't do a thing to the guns.

[PainRack]

standard autocannon ammunition consists of high-explosive armor-piercing(HEAP) rounds.Manufactures have always experimented with ways to improve the armor-piercing qualities of standard AC rounds, but have made no significant advances in the last four centuries. However, researchers at the New Avalon Institue of Science(NAIS) have made a breakthrough that greatly increases the armor-piercing power of an AC round by using a combination of top-secret materials and explosives. Though the sheer weight of this type of round significantly reduces its muzzle velocity, cutting its accuracy and reducing the number of rounds per ton, its designers believe the increased armor penetration is worth the tradeoff.

Federated Suns Handbook, Armor piercing rounds.

I just like to highlight this idiocy.

reduces its muzzle velocity

That's right. You just need magic mats and super exps to improve armour penetration, not speed! This even though your rounds are still HEAP. Granted, it COULD be shaped charges we're talking about here, which would be equivalent to how shaped charges explosives used by infantry in swarming attacks can also do critical damage rolls, but one begs to wonder why it would take 4 centuries for them to realise this when bog standard infantry are already using shaped charges.

[FOG3]

standard autocannon ammunition consists of high-explosive armor-piercing(HEAP) rounds.Manufactures have always experimented with ways to improve the armor-piercing qualities of standard AC rounds, but have made no significant advances in the last four centuries. However, researchers at the New Avalon Institue of Science(NAIS) have made a breakthrough that greatly increases the armor-piercing power of an AC round by using a combination of top-secret materials and explosives. Though the sheer weight of this type of round significantly reduces its muzzle velocity, cutting its accuracy and reducing the number of rounds per ton, its designers believe the increased armor penetration is worth the tradeoff.

That's right. You just need magic mats and super exps to improve armour penetration, not speed! This even though your rounds are still HEAP. Granted, it COULD be shaped charges we're talking about here, which would be equivalent to how shaped charges explosives used by infantry in swarming attacks can also do critical damage rolls, but one begs to wonder why it would take 4 centuries for them to realise this when bog standard infantry are already using shaped charges.

HEAP!=HEAT. HEAT=Munroe effect aka shaped charge, HESH=Misznay-Schardin effect aka squash head. HEAP is a little more complicated, and its actual penetration capability derives from a penetrator that is basically a kind of sabot rod which the round is built around and the explosive, and when present incendiary charge, clear the way for.

Thus what it says is they traded some velocity for a better penetrator. Much like real naval AP rounds verse HE rounds had a loss in velocity but an increase in penetration. In short in reality it's another nail in the "Uber armor that denies CoM and CoE through magic" hypothesis you were spewing around the time you started this thread.

[PainRack]

HEAP!=HEAT. HEAT=Munroe effect aka shaped charge, HESH=Misznay-Schardin effect aka squash head. HEAP is a little more complicated, and its actual penetration capability derives from a penetrator that is basically a kind of sabot rod which the round is built around and the explosive, and when present incendiary charge, clear the way for.

Errr..... My stating of shaped charges was to suggest that AP rounds in Btech isn't APHE, but rather, HEAT, thus explaining away the different mats/explosives bit.

Thus what it says is they traded some velocity for a better penetrator. Much like real naval AP rounds verse HE rounds had a loss in velocity but an increase in penetration. In short in reality it's another nail in the "Uber armor that denies CoM and CoE through magic" hypothesis you were spewing around the time you started this thread.

Geez, you think I don't know that? I already mentioned to Dark Hellion 1 year ago, along with Consequences that AP rounds is a major hole in the kinetic model.

BTW, my "uber armor" doesn't deny CoM and CoE. It states that a good amount of the incoming energy is wasted via an unknown mechanism/model. That energy doesn't vanish. In terms of energy weapons, we do know how this works, conduction and reradiation.
Note that AP rounds here ISN"T the acid warheads of SRMs fame. AP penetration here simply adds a critical roll to the add, but it doesn't do internal structure damage or increased armour damage.

[Gunhead]

HEAP is not the same as HEAT. HEAP = High Explosive Armor Piercing.
It's a fragmenting shell with a small penetrator at it's head to increase penetration of base fused directionally fragmenting shells against lightly armored targets and specially double fusilage.

I'm not 100% sure, but this type of round would have been used for example aircraft mounted autocannons. I'm pretty sure this type of ammunition is not widely used today if at all, or the mechanism is implemented in other types of ammunition.

-Gunhead

[PainRack]

HEAP is not the same as HEAT. HEAP = High Explosive Armor Piercing.
It's a fragmenting shell with a small penetrator at it's head to increase penetration of base fused directionally fragmenting shells against lightly armored targets and specially double fusilage.

I'm not 100% sure, but this type of round would have been used for example aircraft mounted autocannons. I'm pretty sure this type of ammunition is not widely used today if at all, or the mechanism is implemented in other types of ammunition.

-Gunhead

I think I really need to clarify something. I'm quoting the extracts from Federated Suns Handbook, the portion where the FC developed specialised munitions for use in standard autocannons such as Fletchette rounds, guided rounds and Armor Piercing Rounds.

Therefore, there is NO reason to believe that AP rounds are the standard APHE rounds of standard autocannons.

[Gunhead]

Well I was just pointing out that HEAP is not the same as HEAT.

Besides, what makes you think there even is such a thing as a standard autocannon round?
Depending on the calibre you get a multitude of choices what to use.
AP APHE APHEI SAPHEI APCR APCRBC APCNR HESH/HEP APDS APFSDS HEAT
are all types of armor piercing round. So pick your poison.
More to the point. Some sources do state that APHE is used in Btech.
Maybe not as a universal standard. I'd say several types of AP ammunition are used with different performance.

Most of this idiocy comes from writers who have little or no grasp how military tech works, and in addition have almost equally bad grasp on how their own made up tech should work.

-Gunhead

[PainRack]

Besides, what makes you think there even is such a thing as a standard autocannon round?

Because Btech Compendium, BMR and other sources all invariably refer to the autocannon as firing APHE or HEAP rounds. The only source of difference rests in the novels in which some descriptions appear more suitable for SABOT rounds.

Indeed,I quoted from the handbook itself this portionstandard autocannon ammunition consists of high-explosive armor-piercing


I certainly agree with your comments, especially with regards to spotting rounds doing no damage vs the very specific claim where spotting round does do damage. Or even the internal consistency of rules with regards to mech-fu. While leg actuators may reduce the effectiveness of kicking, one has to wonder how the lack of hand actuators affect a straight forward punch. Especially since we seldom see real mech-fu, or mechs using hands to grapple with other mechs and etc in the novels, although battletechnology is replete with such stories.

[PainRack]

Paved landing fields make it a lot easier for the drop ships to land and take off. Drop ships and their plasma drive weigh so much that they often dig huge craters when landing in open terrain.Taking off out of a crater is a complicated and often dangerous job. That is why almost all civilized planets have landing fields...........


The landing field consists of a very large expanse of reinforced concrete with gun positions, control tower and Aerospace fighter hangars;

Citytech.

[PainRack]

The Base-To-Hit Number is higher in Aerotech than in other Battletech games. This is because the targets are often thousands of kilometers away, requiring the use of more sophisticated fire-control computers.

Another quote backing up thousand kilometers ranges, and pointing out the difference between AT ranges and BT ranges is due to targeting solutions. I would also point out that since BT and AT weapons are the same, and that since BT computers are optmised for kilometers only as per Operation Stilleto, it suggest that mechs and vehicles can engage targets kilometers away. The reason they do not is probably due to the issue of effective ranges, the reason why not being stated in canon.


And as for game rules, in universe, FASA is an Earth based publisher recreating historical scenarios for Mechwarriors to test and train, as well as other people to play with. (One wonders how bankrupt computers must be in the Inner Sphere that Mechwarriors use a pen & paper system to test tactics:D)

[PainRack]

To secure their bid on the project, Andoran Industries cut costs in the Clint design. Unfortunately, these design flaws are not easily repaired. Many modular parts that can be exchanged between different types of BattleMechs simply cannot be used on the Clint without a great deal of modification. This is particularly true of the gyro systems. Thus, the Clint can be a technician's nightmare at times, taking much longer to repair than other 'Mechs.

TRO 3025, Clint, issue of modular parts in "common" systems. Note that despite this modularity, you can't simply swap gyros from a 30 ton mech with a 100 ton mech, even if they have the same weight and engine rating. This obviously refers to wear and tear on "common" parts of the equipment, not the equipment itself.

[PainRack]

In 2590, its development arm designed a neurocontrol device to operate a remotepiloted AeroSpace Fighter toy . The impulse system
generated a series of overlapping waves that produced a three-dimensional image of what the toy was "seeing" in the operator's mind .

The Rapier can create havoc with its nosemounted, Ranger class autocannon, whose Bauer-Scope 1 30Y tracking system gives it a range beyond most weapons of the type .

Rounding off the weaponry that the fighter carries is a lone Cavalier Industries LRM, which works well with the Bauer-Scope 130Y targeting system . The pilot can track each missile of a volley of LRMs, giving it new targeting information from either the battlecomputer or his own neural impulses . Thus, a pilot can compensate for an enemy move that the battlecomputer might not, and have the weapons respond
accordingly in flight .

Rapier, TRO 2750.
The Star League equivalent of the MIG 31 Firefox. One should note that with the current neurohelmet and prosthetic equipment technology, the present Inner Sphere "should" be able to provide cripples with the ability to walk.
However, this won't be the first time that a disconnect between two technologies exist. For example, Grayson Caryle ear injury prevents him from piloting a mech, yet, sensor feedback from the gyro is explictly stated to help mechwarriors pilot and control their battlemech.
Another example would be how stem cell therapy apparently isn't common in the Inner Sphere, thus, the story of Joshua Marik and his need to travel to NAIS. And even here, his death there, this although the genesis for such technology exists, and "should" had been available via Comstar and their hospices.

[PainRack]

Fourth Succession Wars Military Atlas Volume 1

In 3026, he organised the planet large militia, about 80 regiments in all , into battle groups clustered around the mech units.

Tikonov.

approached Aldebaran knowing that they would be facing the extremely skilled House Ijori Mech regiment and 16 regiments of armor and infantry.

Scale of militia forces during the 4th Succession War. These were border worlds and thus fortified. Worlds hit by the Clans during their approach engaged planets that were not fortified as heavily and thus faced lesser numbers of militia.

The city was typical of what all the Lancers would soon be facing. A port city of 20,000, it was encircled by ferrocrete walls high enough to prevent all but the boldest jump-capable Mech or soldier from scaling and thick enough to require a concentrated effort to breach. Along the walls were eight towers, each studded with autocannons, lasers, and missile canisters. Six of the towers stood guard over the city's three entrances: one east, one south, and one southwest along the coast. Though the defenses seemed medieval and paper thin in this age of PPCs and City Buster bombs, which can lay waste to even the thickest concrete, the city's defenders realized that the Crucis Lancers would not dare risk damaging the city's important industries.Defending Balun were three regiments of armor, one of mechanized infantry and two of regular infantry. Just within the city walls were 10 Thrush fighters based at the city's spaceport. The defenders were led by a battalion of Mechs from MacGregor's Armored Scouts.

Description of defences at the fortified city of Balun on Tikonov.

City defences with their access to greater power supplies have been suggested to have superior firepower or range than mech based defences.

[FOG3]

HEAP!=HEAT. HEAT=Munroe effect aka shaped charge, HESH=Misznay-Schardin effect aka squash head. HEAP is a little more complicated, and its actual penetration capability derives from a penetrator that is basically a kind of sabot rod which the round is built around and the explosive, and when present incendiary charge, clear the way for.

Errr..... My stating of shaped charges was to suggest that AP rounds in Btech isn't APHE, but rather, HEAT, thus explaining away the different mats/explosives bit.

Except HEAT penetration is a function of the diameter and quality of the explosives. Seems as how just as you pointed out, but was already clear, this is about ammo as opposed to changing the cannon you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself. :rolleye: Yeah, you're so smart you can smart off about their stupidity... NOT.

It describes a heavier penetrator based on superior materials as part of the HEAP arrangement, for which there is real world precedence. HEAP has a penetrator clear the way for the explosive to basically detonate inside the vehicle. All your garbage in this incident shows is you're stupider then they are, because you can't even recognize when they have a acceptable explanation, and when yours is not.

Thus what it says is they traded some velocity for a better penetrator. Much like real naval AP rounds verse HE rounds had a loss in velocity but an increase in penetration. In short in reality it's another nail in the "Uber armor that denies CoM and CoE through magic" hypothesis you were spewing around the time you started this thread.

Geez, you think I don't know that? I already mentioned to Dark Hellion 1 year ago, along with Consequences that AP rounds is a major hole in the kinetic model.

Yeah, yeah the old "I know" routine. What are you, 5, that you think you can use that brat's argument? Knowing and doing are completely separate things, and admitting your theory doesn't hold up doesn't somehow magically clear you to just keep marching forward.

BTW, my "uber armor" doesn't deny CoM and CoE. It states that a good amount of the incoming energy is wasted via an unknown mechanism/model. That energy doesn't vanish. In terms of energy weapons, we do know how this works, conduction and reradiation.
Note that AP rounds here ISN"T the acid warheads of SRMs fame. AP penetration here simply adds a critical roll to the add, but it doesn't do internal structure damage or increased armour damage.

Which means, they're thinking of it in terms of what? Normal gunfight issues of not landing a round in a critical area leading to limited effectiveness. As does usage of APHE as the norm. That establishes what? These geniuses don't have problems so much with penetration as with doing sufficient damage to critical systems to stop the machine. Of course their fire control systems aren't remotely good enough to land another bullet in the same hole, so they do the inefficient song and dance routine we have come to know and love.

Your conclusion was what? Magic happens. Uh-huh.

[PainRack]

It describes a heavier penetrator based on superior materials as part of the HEAP arrangement, for which there is real world precedence. HEAP has a penetrator clear the way for the explosive to basically detonate inside the vehicle. All your garbage in this incident shows is you're stupider then they are, because you can't even recognize when they have a acceptable explanation, and when yours is not.

Conceded.

Geez, you think I don't know that? I already mentioned to Dark Hellion 1 year ago, along with Consequences that AP rounds is a major hole in the kinetic model.

Yeah, yeah the old "I know" routine. What are you, 5, that you think you can use that brat's argument? Knowing and doing are completely separate things, and admitting your theory doesn't hold up doesn't somehow magically clear you to just keep marching forward.[/quote]
So, its somehow my fault that FASA created a model that cannot work? Or that the armour shaved off isn't scalar with KE?

Your conclusion was what? Magic happens. Uh-huh.

Ahem. Want to repeat the 40mm round with a range of a thousand meters doing less damage than a 30mm round with a range of of 600meters? Alternatively, we could refer to how AC/20s have hypersonic rounds, and assume that in the Mithras example above, the 40mm speed is significantly lesser , but that would STILL beggars the issue of what determines the range issue.

We could ALSO use charging and other physical attacks models to scale off ke impacts with the Gauss rifle and autocannons using game ranges as a suggestion of round speed, and STILL come out with KE energy doesn't scale with damage.

And Btech armour doesn't have shields. So, when you come back with an answer that isn't magical, pray tell.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know, what Btech really needed to do when Wizkids brought it out was to draw a line and say 'right, we're going to rewrite this from the ground up'.

Keep almost all of the universe fluff, but come up with a consistent and rational new rule set with realistic ranges, stats, numbers and rational, logical reasoning to work with.

Unfortunately, they just kept trying to dribble out new little bits of fluff here and there to try and 'correct' stuff, which has led to the utter clusterfuck of having to do more mental gymnastics then a PHD in pure mathematics to try and come up with something to explain why overwhelming evidence on one hand is smashing against overwhelming evidence on the other.

A lot of the problem with Btech IMO was that it was written originally back in the mid 1980's when the average person in the world REALLY didn't have anything like the idea just how far military technology had advanced, especially in stuff like computers, fire control systems, C4I, stealth, advanced weapons e.t.c.

Fair enough, but really they needed to just take a breath, step back and carefully work to reboot the universe. It really wouldn't have taken much work and you could have done it in ways to not screw over the people with older rules and TR's, just declare them secondary canon or something and slowly work to phase them out gently, ensuring that the actual game mechanics have minimal changes. Most of the novels also would more then easily stand on their own...

[White Haven]

The problem is that they did try to reboot the universe...into one where 'mechs' run about with chainsaws. Blame Weisman.

[Chris OFarrell]

The problem is that they did try to reboot the universe...into one where 'mechs' run about with chainsaws. Blame Weisman.

I mean the CBT universe Not the Dark Age BS.

[PainRack]

You know, what Btech really needed to do when Wizkids brought it out was to draw a line and say 'right, we're going to rewrite this from the ground up'.

Keep almost all of the universe fluff, but come up with a consistent and rational new rule set with realistic ranges, stats, numbers and rational, logical reasoning to work with.

Unfortunately, they just kept trying to dribble out new little bits of fluff here and there to try and 'correct' stuff, which has led to the utter clusterfuck of having to do more mental gymnastics then a PHD in pure mathematics to try and come up with something to explain why overwhelming evidence on one hand is smashing against overwhelming evidence on the other.

Not really..... The correcting stuff so far has been mostly in terms of clarifying game rules and smoothing gameplay. Well, the AT2 sought to combine Battlespace and AT together, and we already seen how well that project went. Yay! You have a TRO 3067 where 2 warships are "illegal" because they're using older construction rules.

And of course..... IIRC, the Fox corvette is now impossible and if rebuilt using AT2 rules, is worthless.

Fair enough, but really they needed to just take a breath, step back and carefully work to reboot the universe. It really wouldn't have taken much work and you could have done it in ways to not screw over the people with older rules and TR's, just declare them secondary canon or something and slowly work to phase them out gently, ensuring that the actual game mechanics have minimal changes. Most of the novels also would more then easily stand on their own...

In order to do that, you have to rewrite over the entire basis of mech combat, in particular, physical attacks. And beside, the people with older rules have already been screwed, in particular tanks.

[PainRack]

I still can't find the definitive quote, but I believe Consequences would like this.
FM Cappellan Confederation

The Ares Convetion bolstered the use of Mechs, as battles fought by Mechwarriors limited casualties and could more easily contain collateral damage.

Now, if I can only find that bit about the damn chivalry and Mechs.........

[PainRack]

The years of unrestricted Mech manufacturing by Periphery firms had allowed the creation of 50 full Mech divisions. Personnel for these divisions had been recruited from militia units, mercenaris, and from colleges throughout the Periphery. The recruits had been sent to secret training centers,where mercenary units taught them how to use their Mechs. To cover their disappearance, the future MechWarriors were signed on as crew members of the trading vessels of the Black Crow Trading Company, the White Star Liner and Mercantile Company, and the Far Star Convoy. During the five years it took to train personnel for the divisions, the leaders of the Star League had no idea of what was going on, a sign of how deeply the people of the Periphery wanted independence from the League.

Star League Sourcebook.

Errr........ I can't find the source now, but there is a quote from Wolfnet which establishes that up to50% of small unit mercenary commands were missing enroute to contracts, with regards to the Chaos March in 3056-3058...........

Given the limits of Mech production and resources, the Word of Blake assembly of 12 hidden divisions is not improbable. The PROBLEM as always, is the timeline and finanicial resources involved. Without outright theft of Comstar accounts, the money involved should be impossible for a shoestring renegade organisation. Especially since we're talking about secrecy.

[PainRack]

Ant type of infantry unit requiring greater mobility can use various vehicles and transports. To make such units permanetly mobile, the unit commander may supply his troops with GEVcycles or hovercycles.

The existence of hovercycles and wheeled motorcycles troops in the Battletech Universe in 3055. One shudders to imagine how they managed to create a cycle with a hoverskirt.

when engaging an armored or BattleMech unit, infantry commanders generally place heavy infantry along the battle line. As mobile as regular infantry, these units carry weapons better suited to destroying vehicles and Mechs such as the portable SRM launcher , the workhorse of the heavy infantry arsenal. Machine guns, flamers and small lasers supplememnt the portable SRM launcher.

Mercenary Handbook 3055
Depiction of general armaments for infantry units deployed to engage Mech units. The Lyrans also deployed fixed gun emplacements and other heavier weapons, and more elite units, or in the case of the Lyrans, richer units receive PPCs and other more exotic weaponery. Note that Wolfnet also classified guns as "new" in 3058, as per the "newer" rules and equipment released for the Chaos march. Such weapons could be found in Davion RCTs... Unfortunately, its difficult to see what difference the newer equipment had from the older Lyrans tech(albeit, revised) and or the Hetzer wheeled Assault Gun other than scale of weaponery.

[PainRack]

Training in the Lyran State

The Military Education Department is responsible for
training the millions of recruits who enter House Steiner’s
thousands of boot camps throughout the realm. This training
consists of a rigorous four-month ordeal that strips them of
civilization’s veneer to make them think like soldiers. They must
learn to kill using a wide variety of weapons, and they must
become disciplined enough to follow orders in the face of certain
death. Without this training, no recruit would survive his first
battle.
After boot camp, the new soldiers receive an additional six
months of advanced training in specialties such as operating an
armored vehicle, combat engineering, or ‘Mech maintenance.
Officer training is discussed later in this report. Commander of
Military Education is General of the Armies Yumiko Shakuma

House Lyran

The vast majority of Lyran citizens spend their military service with the planetary or regional militias, undergoing basic training at one of the scores of boot camps throughout the Alliance.This ten-week sojourn teaches the milita troops the basics of military life:

FM Lyran Alliance
Changes in basic training

Each academy offers a standardized basic training program not unlike the boot camp courses, teaching basic levels of field craft, weapons skills and military discipline. Once this four-month period ends, each student begins training in a Military Occupation Speciality[cut]This MOS training can last anywhere between two months and four years, depending on the speciality.

Academies retain the old training schedule, as well as some timings for MOS training.

Depending on the Academy packages in Mechwarrior, it would appear that most mechwarrior academy training is over 2 year long. The Bolan/Melissa Academy was comissioned in 3054, completed its first batch of line troops(conventional armour/infantry) in 3055, so, it appears that their infantry and armour officers follow a similar training schedule to real life. Note however that Battletech ranking system is confusing and contary..... academy graduates may be graduated as a mere corporal or sargaent for mechwarriors, and similar specialists ranks have been given for armour units.

I add the Focht academy training which fleshes out the training package for Mechwarriors in their 2-3 years later.

[Swindle1984]

The Base-To-Hit Number is higher in Aerotech than in other Battletech games. This is because the targets are often thousands of kilometers away, requiring the use of more sophisticated fire-control computers.

Another quote backing up thousand kilometers ranges, and pointing out the difference between AT ranges and BT ranges is due to targeting solutions. I would also point out that since BT and AT weapons are the same, and that since BT computers are optmised for kilometers only as per Operation Stilleto, it suggest that mechs and vehicles can engage targets kilometers away. The reason they do not is probably due to the issue of effective ranges, the reason why not being stated in canon.


And as for game rules, in universe, FASA is an Earth based publisher recreating historical scenarios for Mechwarriors to test and train, as well as other people to play with. (One wonders how bankrupt computers must be in the Inner Sphere that Mechwarriors use a pen & paper system to test tactics:D)

Hasn't it been stated that weapon's ranges in BT are much shorter than they would be "in reality" due to game mechanics?