nBSG Episode 319: "Crossroads, Part II"...
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SylasGaunt
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Because it was a fucking plot REVALATION, dumbass. And did you miss the scene with the President with Doctor Cottle talking about surviving her first "treatment"?HSRTG wrote:Did she ever get a doctor's confirmation about cancer again? 'Cause I damn sure didn't see it.SylasGaunt wrote:Uhm, what did she lie about again?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
-Agent Kay
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Spanky The Dolphin
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My initial thought while watching it happen was that it could have been caused by something left by the Thirteenth Tribe.John Chris wrote:Power outage: Did someone call in an ion cannon strike and not tell me? 'cause that was definitely something that kept me on the edge of my seat. So yeah, my question is how the entire fleet got pwned by the power outage. If it's a new Cylon weapon, the fleet's frakked.
From the way the zoom is performed, I think it's impossible to determine.Speaking of Earth, did anyone manage to guess how far the Fleet is from Earth now with the zoom out and in?
I believe in a sign of Zeta.
[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]
"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
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SylasGaunt
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That was meNeoGoomba wrote: Someone in an older threat mentioned Rutger Hauer, and goddamn someone with that sort of presence would rock in the "adversary" roll.
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GrandMasterTerwynn
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I'm trying to decide whether or not to like this episode a lot, or hate it.
The Good:
- Lee gave a nice speech.
- Is Kara Thrace really back? The way they edited it, it could very easily be Lee hallucinating the whole thing and chasing after ghosts (no pun here, really.) Especially since, if I remember correctly, we hear her directly, as if she were right there with Lee . . . whereas we hear Lee speaking over the comms like one would usually hear. That, and her fighter flickers in and out as though it's not really there.
- Dun, dun, dun! Are Anders, Tyrol, Tigh and that woman really Cylons? And are they Cylons from the start? Or were they just killed on New Caprica and replaced with fast-grown Cylon agents. Or did the Cylons just experiment with their brains on New Caprica?
- It was very creepy when Tigh and that woman whose name escapes me walk onto the bridge and tell their respective superiors that they can be counted on.
The Bad:
- Lee giving a nice speech pretty much was the sign that Baltar was about to be saved in a contrived Act of Plot.
- What's up with those women stealing Baltar away? We got a hint of this in the other episode, but it smacks me much of coming out of nowhere.
- The Baltar on trial subplot wraps up too nicely. I mean sure, I can see why they had the subplot, so we wouldn't see what was really coming, but . . . eh.
- Lee being in a Viper cockpit and getting on the alert patrol didn't sit well with me. He resigned his comission in a huff and gave his father his rank insignia. There's pretty much no way in hell he should've been on the first three Vipers out unless someone down on the flight deck proved to be really easy to talk out of going on duty, or else is going to wake up sore and looking to make a frantic report to his superior officer.
The Ugly:
- This episode could've afforded to be a lot longer. As it is, it's really disjointed. The Baltar subplot is too neatly wrapped up and the ambush mindfuck too out-of-nowhere. They should've given us the two-hour version of the episode now.
- If Kara Thrace really is back and she really does know the way to Earth . . . it makes me all kinds of irrationally angry just thinking about it.
In short, it's choppy, disjointed, and has a little more possibly contrived weird in it than I can safely stomach in one night. The cliffhanger is very good, but the episode could've afforded to be longer and they succeeded in working in what looks suspiciously like a courtroom-drama show cliche (impassioned speech causes kangaroo court to magically find their moral compasses and vote to acquit.) In all, I think I want to give this episode four (hopefully, very hopefully) hallucinatory Kara Thraces out of five.
The Good:
- Lee gave a nice speech.
- Is Kara Thrace really back? The way they edited it, it could very easily be Lee hallucinating the whole thing and chasing after ghosts (no pun here, really.) Especially since, if I remember correctly, we hear her directly, as if she were right there with Lee . . . whereas we hear Lee speaking over the comms like one would usually hear. That, and her fighter flickers in and out as though it's not really there.
- Dun, dun, dun! Are Anders, Tyrol, Tigh and that woman really Cylons? And are they Cylons from the start? Or were they just killed on New Caprica and replaced with fast-grown Cylon agents. Or did the Cylons just experiment with their brains on New Caprica?
- It was very creepy when Tigh and that woman whose name escapes me walk onto the bridge and tell their respective superiors that they can be counted on.
The Bad:
- Lee giving a nice speech pretty much was the sign that Baltar was about to be saved in a contrived Act of Plot.
- What's up with those women stealing Baltar away? We got a hint of this in the other episode, but it smacks me much of coming out of nowhere.
- The Baltar on trial subplot wraps up too nicely. I mean sure, I can see why they had the subplot, so we wouldn't see what was really coming, but . . . eh.
- Lee being in a Viper cockpit and getting on the alert patrol didn't sit well with me. He resigned his comission in a huff and gave his father his rank insignia. There's pretty much no way in hell he should've been on the first three Vipers out unless someone down on the flight deck proved to be really easy to talk out of going on duty, or else is going to wake up sore and looking to make a frantic report to his superior officer.
The Ugly:
- This episode could've afforded to be a lot longer. As it is, it's really disjointed. The Baltar subplot is too neatly wrapped up and the ambush mindfuck too out-of-nowhere. They should've given us the two-hour version of the episode now.
- If Kara Thrace really is back and she really does know the way to Earth . . . it makes me all kinds of irrationally angry just thinking about it.
In short, it's choppy, disjointed, and has a little more possibly contrived weird in it than I can safely stomach in one night. The cliffhanger is very good, but the episode could've afforded to be longer and they succeeded in working in what looks suspiciously like a courtroom-drama show cliche (impassioned speech causes kangaroo court to magically find their moral compasses and vote to acquit.) In all, I think I want to give this episode four (hopefully, very hopefully) hallucinatory Kara Thraces out of five.
Tales of the Known Worlds:
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
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CaptainChewbacca
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I need to change my shorts and watch it again.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
Here is what we know the Cylons:
We know that the 7 human-model Cylons do not know what the final five look like. They also revere them as Gods or God-like beings.
We know there are only 12 Cylon human models altogether (and they apparently can't create more, else they would have used many different models as infiltrators).
We know that the Cylons retreated into outer space after the truce of the first Cylon War. At this point they only had big, bad metal hulks.
They come back ~50 years later, and suddenly have human-like robots, that are so human-like as to be (almost) impossible to distinguish from real humans (even a normal blood test doesn't reveal anything!).
They come back after ~50 years and are suddenly spouting about all this different spiritual stuff (destiny, serving the one God and not the Lords of Kobol, etc).
This is my theory: The Cylons wandered around for a few years, stumbled upon (or where contacted by) the final five (who did not reveal who exactly they were). They created the 7 Cylon human-like models (and a way to produce more of them, but not any new models). They also told/taught the Cylons about the whole destiny thing, etc. setting them on their path to destroy most of the colonies, but also trying to become more human (wanting to have babies, for example). After a short time the final five disappear again, having never revealed themselves (or deleting the memories of all Cylons of their appearance). So the Cylons try to fulfill their destiny (thereby testing the human race, and themselves?). There of course isn't absolute agreement between the different Cylon models (who represent different ways of acting, thinking, viewing the world), which leads to all the fuck-ups we see in the series.
All the time the final five (hell, they might even be from Earth) are watching, interfering (for example through the visions and the Head-people), trying to see their plan be fulfilled (whatever it is). This even fits with the "and they have a plan" - something the Cylon we DO see definitely don't have.
Are the four we see in the room (plus obviously the President, with her visions, head aches, interactive dream with two known Cylons and a hybrid, etc) of the final five model (obviously created/planted by the final five and not by the normal Cylon)? I think so.
Thats the short of it.
Now rip it to shreds.
We know that the 7 human-model Cylons do not know what the final five look like. They also revere them as Gods or God-like beings.
We know there are only 12 Cylon human models altogether (and they apparently can't create more, else they would have used many different models as infiltrators).
We know that the Cylons retreated into outer space after the truce of the first Cylon War. At this point they only had big, bad metal hulks.
They come back ~50 years later, and suddenly have human-like robots, that are so human-like as to be (almost) impossible to distinguish from real humans (even a normal blood test doesn't reveal anything!).
They come back after ~50 years and are suddenly spouting about all this different spiritual stuff (destiny, serving the one God and not the Lords of Kobol, etc).
This is my theory: The Cylons wandered around for a few years, stumbled upon (or where contacted by) the final five (who did not reveal who exactly they were). They created the 7 Cylon human-like models (and a way to produce more of them, but not any new models). They also told/taught the Cylons about the whole destiny thing, etc. setting them on their path to destroy most of the colonies, but also trying to become more human (wanting to have babies, for example). After a short time the final five disappear again, having never revealed themselves (or deleting the memories of all Cylons of their appearance). So the Cylons try to fulfill their destiny (thereby testing the human race, and themselves?). There of course isn't absolute agreement between the different Cylon models (who represent different ways of acting, thinking, viewing the world), which leads to all the fuck-ups we see in the series.
All the time the final five (hell, they might even be from Earth) are watching, interfering (for example through the visions and the Head-people), trying to see their plan be fulfilled (whatever it is). This even fits with the "and they have a plan" - something the Cylon we DO see definitely don't have.
Are the four we see in the room (plus obviously the President, with her visions, head aches, interactive dream with two known Cylons and a hybrid, etc) of the final five model (obviously created/planted by the final five and not by the normal Cylon)? I think so.
Thats the short of it.
Now rip it to shreds.
OK, I was pretty tired while I was watching this last night, but did I miss something with Tigh and company? From what I saw of the episode, the four of them were hearing music, they all ended up in the same room, and now they all think they're Cylon's? How in the hell did they make that leap in logic? I'm going to have to have to watch it again, I must have missed something in there. Also, was there some significance to the room the four of them met in, or was it just a totally random spot?
My other question is where does Baltar go from here? He's hated by almost everybody, and he's been "rescued" by a group of fanatics who think he's a prophet. Now what's he going to do? My guess is he'll start recruiting people to his underground religion and attempt a coup at some point, but what do the rest of you think?
As an aside, who is the girl that rescued Baltar? I know she's the same one who asked him to bless her child last week (or whenever it was), but I know I've seen her before and I can't put a name to her. Did anyone catch the actresses' name?
My other question is where does Baltar go from here? He's hated by almost everybody, and he's been "rescued" by a group of fanatics who think he's a prophet. Now what's he going to do? My guess is he'll start recruiting people to his underground religion and attempt a coup at some point, but what do the rest of you think?
As an aside, who is the girl that rescued Baltar? I know she's the same one who asked him to bless her child last week (or whenever it was), but I know I've seen her before and I can't put a name to her. Did anyone catch the actresses' name?
Clever and witty signature to be inserted here, just as soon as I think of one.
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Ghost Rider
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The episode was good until they decided that to cram a half hour worth of information into five minutes.
Honestly I give a three. Good cliffhangers do not make me like the sheer information dump regardless, and personally I wanted to see Strabuck dead, not go "Ha, we just built up drama to fuck with you again...funny aren't we...just kidding."
Honestly I give a three. Good cliffhangers do not make me like the sheer information dump regardless, and personally I wanted to see Strabuck dead, not go "Ha, we just built up drama to fuck with you again...funny aren't we...just kidding."
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
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Gil Hamilton
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It's pretty obvious the CAG let Lee fly a Viper was because he made a Gay Little Speech (ala South Park) and taught her an important lesson about life. Geez.
No seriously, the point they were at, beggars can't be choosers and Lee is one of the most skilled pilots they have.
Putting one more bird in the air when humanity is on the line >> Worrying if Adama is kosher to fly legally or not. I'm willing to bet that's why Helo wasn't on the bridge either that I could see either (they made him the XO again in lieu of Tigh's absence), since he may well have been sent to strap himself into a Raptor.
As for those folks being the Final Five:
Let's be reasonable here. Anders is conceivable. After all we met him on Caprica and he could have gotten there when the Cylons arrived the first time. But, frankly, Tyrol has a kid and we know that Cylons can't exactly reproduce very well (convoluted ways to try and make that work aside), and Tigh and Roslin both have a rather long public history that we know of. Roslin held public office for how long as Secretary of Education? And Tigh's been around for a long long time in the Colonial Fleet.
No, them being humalons doesn't make much sense, particularly the Tighlon or Roslon idea. It makes alot more sense, given the timing of the sequence of events that the Cylons must have fucked with them when they had the chance on New Caprica and were triggering them simultaneously with their attack on the fleet, probably using Six (whether she knows it or not) as a transmitter.
As for Kara... well, my theory is that that fleet wide power outage had something to do with her. The only queer thing about that is all the ships getting their power back at once. That implies that not that their power was knocked out, like it they go smacked by an EMP, but that something seized control of their systems and captured their power grids. And it's not the Cylons, because they would have kept the Colonial Fleets power turned off and turned the last battle into turkey shoot if they could have. I think this is a Thirteenth Tribe thing and it involves Kara, not the Cylons.
No seriously, the point they were at, beggars can't be choosers and Lee is one of the most skilled pilots they have.
Putting one more bird in the air when humanity is on the line >> Worrying if Adama is kosher to fly legally or not. I'm willing to bet that's why Helo wasn't on the bridge either that I could see either (they made him the XO again in lieu of Tigh's absence), since he may well have been sent to strap himself into a Raptor.
As for those folks being the Final Five:
Let's be reasonable here. Anders is conceivable. After all we met him on Caprica and he could have gotten there when the Cylons arrived the first time. But, frankly, Tyrol has a kid and we know that Cylons can't exactly reproduce very well (convoluted ways to try and make that work aside), and Tigh and Roslin both have a rather long public history that we know of. Roslin held public office for how long as Secretary of Education? And Tigh's been around for a long long time in the Colonial Fleet.
No, them being humalons doesn't make much sense, particularly the Tighlon or Roslon idea. It makes alot more sense, given the timing of the sequence of events that the Cylons must have fucked with them when they had the chance on New Caprica and were triggering them simultaneously with their attack on the fleet, probably using Six (whether she knows it or not) as a transmitter.
As for Kara... well, my theory is that that fleet wide power outage had something to do with her. The only queer thing about that is all the ships getting their power back at once. That implies that not that their power was knocked out, like it they go smacked by an EMP, but that something seized control of their systems and captured their power grids. And it's not the Cylons, because they would have kept the Colonial Fleets power turned off and turned the last battle into turkey shoot if they could have. I think this is a Thirteenth Tribe thing and it involves Kara, not the Cylons.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
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Burak Gazan
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Ok, stupid question(s): Did anyone notice or hear anything in the chatter about the Cylon Fleet advancing on their position? Or was it just hanging there in space?. I'm wondering if whatever the hell ion-cannoned the entire fleet is some sort of boobytrap hidden in the nebula to disable any incoming ships until they are identified -- non colonial ones dont get the auto-restart after a few minutes.
Also (and need to rewatch to try and check), did the President seem to almost faint just as power came back and dradis picked up the Cylons? If so, that cant be a coincidence (nothing is in this damned show
)
Oh, someone speculating if her cancer recurring was real or not --- she was in sickbay hooked up to an IV (chemo of some sort, the type the Doc mentioned in Season 1) when she and Athena had their little freakout dream.
5 to match the final 5
Also (and need to rewatch to try and check), did the President seem to almost faint just as power came back and dradis picked up the Cylons? If so, that cant be a coincidence (nothing is in this damned show
)Oh, someone speculating if her cancer recurring was real or not --- she was in sickbay hooked up to an IV (chemo of some sort, the type the Doc mentioned in Season 1) when she and Athena had their little freakout dream.
5 to match the final 5
"Of course, what would really happen is that in Game 7, with the Red Sox winning 20-0 in the 9th inning, with two outs and two strikes on the last Cubs batter, a previously unseen meteor would strike the earth, instantly and forever wiping out all life on the planet, and forever denying the Red Sox a World Series victory..."
My personal theory on who the Final Five really are is still a little half-baked so I'll work on it some and then post more later.
But one of the things that's floating around in my head now is this idea of "projecting" that the cylons do. We know that the cylons see their surroundings in a way that they want to see it. I suspect that some of them (maybe only the Final Five, which I think are probably the Original Five) can project themselves into other people's heads -- this neatly explains all at once the being(s) that Caprica Six and Baltar see, the shared vision of Caprica-Roslyn-Athena, Starbuck's vision of Leoben, and possibly the music heard by The Four. One mechanism, one explanation?
As for the rest of the episode, I do think some of it was a little disjointed. I didn't really like the transition after the trial, but to some degree I'm not sure what else you could do. I think maybe we're meant to feel dissatisfied with that ending of events. In a way Lee was right. Nothing that could happen to Baltar was going to change what's happened before or make anyone (including the audience) feel that justice has really been done.
The scene with the four coming together and realizing that Something Was Terribly Awry was awesome. And Tigh's reaction is just gold, even if the conclusion that they came to (we're cylons) is more than a little non-sequitor. Why not "we're all crazy"?
I had to look up the lyrics to the song... maybe there's some deeper meaning here to be found:
But one of the things that's floating around in my head now is this idea of "projecting" that the cylons do. We know that the cylons see their surroundings in a way that they want to see it. I suspect that some of them (maybe only the Final Five, which I think are probably the Original Five) can project themselves into other people's heads -- this neatly explains all at once the being(s) that Caprica Six and Baltar see, the shared vision of Caprica-Roslyn-Athena, Starbuck's vision of Leoben, and possibly the music heard by The Four. One mechanism, one explanation?
As for the rest of the episode, I do think some of it was a little disjointed. I didn't really like the transition after the trial, but to some degree I'm not sure what else you could do. I think maybe we're meant to feel dissatisfied with that ending of events. In a way Lee was right. Nothing that could happen to Baltar was going to change what's happened before or make anyone (including the audience) feel that justice has really been done.
The scene with the four coming together and realizing that Something Was Terribly Awry was awesome. And Tigh's reaction is just gold, even if the conclusion that they came to (we're cylons) is more than a little non-sequitor. Why not "we're all crazy"?
I had to look up the lyrics to the song... maybe there's some deeper meaning here to be found:
(Oh, and one last thing: Tori-Anders make-out session is Teh Drool. Further emphasizing my theory that all the smoking hot women on this show are cylons.)"There must be some way out of here" said the joker to the thief
"There's too much confusion", I can't get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth.
"No reason to get excited", the thief he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late".
All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.
Then you, good sir, are a geniusVympel wrote:
That was me
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
-Agent Kay
Perhaps I shall end up wrong, but all this "fertility" talk nonsense seems utterly ridiculous to me. As I was reading the thread last night after watching the show (I was curious if anyone knew anything about where it was going), I was astounded at how many people seemed to be siezing on the "wrong" things.
Here are a few observations and/or opinions.
The only indication that the four (four, not five) people hearing the music are Cylons is...that they think they are. There's no indication beyond that. This may be a result of Cylon mindfuckery, or it may be that they are indeed Cylon skinjobs. This has fairly large implications for the rapidity with which the Cylons developed the skinjobs in the post-War period (Tigh having been in service for 40 years, and the previous war being 50 years ago).
This fertility stuff is meaningless. Hera's significance is that she is a child born of a Cylon mother, with a human father. The point being that a Cylon mother can carry a baby to term. Even if Tyrol is in fact a Cylon, there's no indication that Cally is. In this case, the only Cylon contribution is in the form of Cylo-sperm, which in the genetic scheme of things is fairly small. And, as an entirely personal statement, for you fuckers saying Cally is a whore, fuck you all. 
Starbuck may or may not be the 5th. This may be the same Starbuck as before, when we saw her blow up. She has apparently gone to Earth, which either implies that Earth is really close, that she's a Cylon and they've already been there, or that some other crazy mindfuckery is going on.
If Katee Sackhoff's retiring from the show was a hoax, holy crap what a brilliant move.
My brain is still reeling from the episode, trying to figure out what the hell I just watched, but I was getting bored with the "zomg teh cylon babeez!" statements. Might have more to say later after digesting it for a bit.
Here are a few observations and/or opinions.
The only indication that the four (four, not five) people hearing the music are Cylons is...that they think they are. There's no indication beyond that. This may be a result of Cylon mindfuckery, or it may be that they are indeed Cylon skinjobs. This has fairly large implications for the rapidity with which the Cylons developed the skinjobs in the post-War period (Tigh having been in service for 40 years, and the previous war being 50 years ago). This fertility stuff is meaningless. Hera's significance is that she is a child born of a Cylon mother, with a human father. The point being that a Cylon mother can carry a baby to term. Even if Tyrol is in fact a Cylon, there's no indication that Cally is. In this case, the only Cylon contribution is in the form of Cylo-sperm, which in the genetic scheme of things is fairly small. And, as an entirely personal statement, for you fuckers saying Cally is a whore, fuck you all. Starbuck may or may not be the 5th. This may be the same Starbuck as before, when we saw her blow up. She has apparently gone to Earth, which either implies that Earth is really close, that she's a Cylon and they've already been there, or that some other crazy mindfuckery is going on. If Katee Sackhoff's retiring from the show was a hoax, holy crap what a brilliant move.My brain is still reeling from the episode, trying to figure out what the hell I just watched, but I was getting bored with the "zomg teh cylon babeez!" statements. Might have more to say later after digesting it for a bit.
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
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His Divine Shadow
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I'm thinking 13th tribe designs, maybe all the humans from the 13th tribe went synthetic some time in the past and went somewhere else, and they did it right. Now these latter and conventional cylons we all know and low are what the machine cylons made based on remnant technology from the 13th tribe and they didn't get it quite right. Reproduction is screwy and ressurection is painfull and gets worse for instance.CaptJodan wrote:Agreed. Something about the 5 makes them dramatically different. Either they're actually not Cylons, but some kind of....oh who the fuck knows, or they're models that are vastly different somehow.Imperial Overlord wrote:And why would Tyrol's kid show up in the Opera House? We know the Five are different. They only show up shrouded in the Opera House. It might be their construction or under their control. It would kind of blow their secrecy if their kid(s) were running around in it.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
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Jadeite
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As someone else mentioned, it's not a big deal that Tyrol has a son. Love was the 'missing ingredient' for all the others, so to speak, and Tyrol and Cally had that.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Okay, I'll be frank, get to what's on my mind, and say that a first-reaction hypothetical solution to the issue of Tyrol's son of simply "Cally = whore" really bothers me. I do think it's dumb, but mainly, it just bothers me.Sam Or I wrote:And a making up excuses as why some Cylons can reproduce and some cannot, and taking away from Heras importance (or making up and excuse why this other hybrid is not as important) is not idiotic .
I think a better idea is that the Final Five could be different from the Other Seven in some ways, one of them being fertility.
I think the biggest problem isn't the fact that there is a son, but that the son being a hybrid dilutes the importance of Hera. There's been a lot of build-up on the importance of Athena and Helo's daughter; it'd be pretty silly for them to throw it away by saying, "surprise, there's another and you didn't have to fight President Airlock and the Cylons to keep your child!"Jadeite wrote:As someone else mentioned, it's not a big deal that Tyrol has a son. Love was the 'missing ingredient' for all the others, so to speak, and Tyrol and Cally had that.
Basically it's the same reason I'm not all too surprised Starbuck is back, in whatever form she may take (Head Starbuck would be sweet and still, imho, work fine with the destiny foreshadowing).
This aligns pretty well with what I've been putting together in my head. One tribe leaves Kobol for Earth after a great and bloody conflict. Twelve tribes become the colonies. Eventually someone from the 13th tribe comes back to the colonies to guide them to their future and tell them what they know, otherwise the colonies have no way of knowing the information in the Scrolls of Pithia.His Divine Shadow wrote:I'm thinking 13th tribe designs, maybe all the humans from the 13th tribe went synthetic some time in the past and went somewhere else, and they did it right. Now these latter and conventional cylons we all know and low are what the machine cylons made based on remnant technology from the 13th tribe and they didn't get it quite right. Reproduction is screwy and ressurection is painfull and gets worse for instance.
Centuries later, with Kobol little more than a legend, a "thirteenth tribe" is created once more (the cylons). After a great and bloody conflict, the thirteenth tribe flees to another world (the cylon homeworld). Eventually, this new 13th tribe returns to the colonies in the attack to give them the (violent) impetus to bring the whole thing full-circle.
After thinking it over a bit at night...
I still don't really know. Thought I did, but probably not. The thing that keeps coming back to me as to whether they are or they aren't is the song. It's a real Earth song. So whether they are the final 5 or not, whatever has happened to them has been done/programmed/whatever by people/cylons/remnants/whatever of Earth. There's a strong Earth connection with them.
This, to me, signals the death of the "they were messed with by the 7 on NC" theory. The 7 have never shown an indication that they know Earth's musical history. So for me, 7 mindfuckery is out as a theory. I'm happy to have something that I can discount, cause the rest of the episode doesn't tell you anything.
I agree with the idea that we know so little about the final 5 that we can't even be sure that they ARE Cylons. There's too little to go on with that. Obviously them suddenly turning out to be human would be totally against the series thus far, but it's not like Moore hasn't done that.
I think for the moment I'm going to side with the "Kara is Lee's delusion" theory. It doesn't actually help the "destiny" plot one iota, because it wouldn't really be Kara (making it likely that it really is her somehow), but the way they filmed it it was very similar to the phantom heavy Raider. Kara's voice didn't sound like it was over comms, as stated, and where the fuck does she get a Viper in the middle of nowhere? We know the Cylons have colonial ships they captured, of course, but the Mark II in particular was ancient history. A relic that likely was going to stay on Galactica. Are we seriously suggesting that the Cylons would go to all the trouble of making a Mark II flyable from some museum and transporting it from one of the 12 colonies all the way to the nebula just for this? And how the hell would the final 5 have a Mark II?
I will also go on record as actually finally having an emotional opinion of the whole Kara thing, and that is that it sucks. I was hoping she was dead and gone. At the most, I expected a "Head Kara" much later in the series, not 3 episodes after her death. Course, either way this plays out it sucks balls. I'm more than tired of everyone having delusions, but having Kara magically back alive (new Viper and all) equally sucks.
I still don't really know. Thought I did, but probably not. The thing that keeps coming back to me as to whether they are or they aren't is the song. It's a real Earth song. So whether they are the final 5 or not, whatever has happened to them has been done/programmed/whatever by people/cylons/remnants/whatever of Earth. There's a strong Earth connection with them.
This, to me, signals the death of the "they were messed with by the 7 on NC" theory. The 7 have never shown an indication that they know Earth's musical history. So for me, 7 mindfuckery is out as a theory. I'm happy to have something that I can discount, cause the rest of the episode doesn't tell you anything.
I agree with the idea that we know so little about the final 5 that we can't even be sure that they ARE Cylons. There's too little to go on with that. Obviously them suddenly turning out to be human would be totally against the series thus far, but it's not like Moore hasn't done that.
I think for the moment I'm going to side with the "Kara is Lee's delusion" theory. It doesn't actually help the "destiny" plot one iota, because it wouldn't really be Kara (making it likely that it really is her somehow), but the way they filmed it it was very similar to the phantom heavy Raider. Kara's voice didn't sound like it was over comms, as stated, and where the fuck does she get a Viper in the middle of nowhere? We know the Cylons have colonial ships they captured, of course, but the Mark II in particular was ancient history. A relic that likely was going to stay on Galactica. Are we seriously suggesting that the Cylons would go to all the trouble of making a Mark II flyable from some museum and transporting it from one of the 12 colonies all the way to the nebula just for this? And how the hell would the final 5 have a Mark II?
I will also go on record as actually finally having an emotional opinion of the whole Kara thing, and that is that it sucks. I was hoping she was dead and gone. At the most, I expected a "Head Kara" much later in the series, not 3 episodes after her death. Course, either way this plays out it sucks balls. I'm more than tired of everyone having delusions, but having Kara magically back alive (new Viper and all) equally sucks.
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DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
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The first and last line of Starbuck's weren't over the com, but the rest of them were.
I assume this was done for dramatic effect- some of Lee's lines didn't have the com effect either.
I assume this was done for dramatic effect- some of Lee's lines didn't have the com effect either.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Okay, I think I've got my Big Fat Cylon Theory finally worked out. Some of this is drawing from my earlier comments so sorry if it seems repetitive. Feel free to rip it to shreds. Here goes...
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
Millennia ago, the 12 Tribes of Kobol, inspired by some ancient lore, create a new tribe -- a 13th Tribe -- the original cylons. But the cylons are a new race, born for violence. Soon, the cylons and the humans come to war [we know Kobol saw massive warfare of some kind from Kobol's Last Gleaming]. The cylons and the humans eventually come to a cease-fire, and the cylons leave for the world we know as Earth. The humans fall into complacency once more. Finally, the 13th Tribe returns. They have taken on human forms; five of them, in fact. The cylons lead humanity to a new future by nearly annihilating them in a trial by fire, and pass on their knowledge of Earth in the form of the Scrolls of Pithia.
Centuries later, with Kobol little more than legend and the true nature of the 13th Tribe forgotten, the 12 Colonies learn to create a "new tribe" once more -- the new cylons. Soon, the cylons and humans come to war, and eventually the cylons leave for what becomes their homeworld. The humans fall into complacency once more, and the cylons return. They have taken on human forms. The cylons nearly annihilate humanity, forcing them on the path to a new future.
However, the Original Cylons still exist, on Earth, and have been influencing events from the beginning. Just as the cylons (and apparently some humans) have the ability to "project" and change the way they see their surroundings, the Original Cylons have over the centuries of their existence developed a way to "project" themselves into the minds of others... appearing as Caprica Six to Baltar, as Baltar to Caprica Six, as Leoben to Starbuck, as visions to Roslyn and Athena and Caprica, and as strange music "as if from childhood" to The Four (Tigh, Tori, Anders, Tyrol).
The new cylons have learned of the Original cylons (the Final Five) through their visions and revelations in the space between life and death. The Original/Final Five have also existed among the humans since time immemorial, waiting for this particular moment in time. And of course they have a copy of each of themselves among the humans -- Tigh, Tori, Anders, Tyrol, and Starbuck.
The Original Cylons do "have a plan" and that is to lead humanity to whatever their new future is supposed to be, which requires this trial by fire once more.
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
Millennia ago, the 12 Tribes of Kobol, inspired by some ancient lore, create a new tribe -- a 13th Tribe -- the original cylons. But the cylons are a new race, born for violence. Soon, the cylons and the humans come to war [we know Kobol saw massive warfare of some kind from Kobol's Last Gleaming]. The cylons and the humans eventually come to a cease-fire, and the cylons leave for the world we know as Earth. The humans fall into complacency once more. Finally, the 13th Tribe returns. They have taken on human forms; five of them, in fact. The cylons lead humanity to a new future by nearly annihilating them in a trial by fire, and pass on their knowledge of Earth in the form of the Scrolls of Pithia.
Centuries later, with Kobol little more than legend and the true nature of the 13th Tribe forgotten, the 12 Colonies learn to create a "new tribe" once more -- the new cylons. Soon, the cylons and humans come to war, and eventually the cylons leave for what becomes their homeworld. The humans fall into complacency once more, and the cylons return. They have taken on human forms. The cylons nearly annihilate humanity, forcing them on the path to a new future.
However, the Original Cylons still exist, on Earth, and have been influencing events from the beginning. Just as the cylons (and apparently some humans) have the ability to "project" and change the way they see their surroundings, the Original Cylons have over the centuries of their existence developed a way to "project" themselves into the minds of others... appearing as Caprica Six to Baltar, as Baltar to Caprica Six, as Leoben to Starbuck, as visions to Roslyn and Athena and Caprica, and as strange music "as if from childhood" to The Four (Tigh, Tori, Anders, Tyrol).
The new cylons have learned of the Original cylons (the Final Five) through their visions and revelations in the space between life and death. The Original/Final Five have also existed among the humans since time immemorial, waiting for this particular moment in time. And of course they have a copy of each of themselves among the humans -- Tigh, Tori, Anders, Tyrol, and Starbuck.
The Original Cylons do "have a plan" and that is to lead humanity to whatever their new future is supposed to be, which requires this trial by fire once more.
All the bigger implications of this episode haven't let me comment on some of the things I genuinely liked that were not huge plot points. Figured I'd quickly jot them down.
1. Adama's cabin light. Such a small thing, but it speaks volumes. This isn't Voyager. It's such a small thing and it's just thrown in there, not made a huge deal of, but it's just the way it should be handled. The ship is old and battle scarred. Things keep breaking. This reminds us of that without going overboard, and I like it a lot.
2. Lampkin. He was played real well in this episode. When he first showed up I didn't really have a strong feeling of liking the character, but he finished strong and made a real impression. The last bit with the cane was a nice touch.
3. Hogan. He does great with Tigh, but he was above par again this episode.
4. Lee's speech. I still hate the little fucker, but he brought up some good points and even demonstrated the forgiveness factor later as he took to his Viper. (honestly I don't see the problem here. They're facing a massive fleet, is anyone REALLY going to stick to regs if he wants to get in a cockpit to help defend the last of their people? Even when he put a gun to Tigh's head, he was still able to keep his job and fly his Viper in defense of the fleet. Father and son petty bickering takes a back seat when 5+ basestars show up. This should be obvious.) The evidence that the prosecution had just wasn't enough, even though we all know he is the traitor Roslin knows him to be.
A lot of the good of the episode kind of gets swept away in the last 10 minutes with the OMG moments.
1. Adama's cabin light. Such a small thing, but it speaks volumes. This isn't Voyager. It's such a small thing and it's just thrown in there, not made a huge deal of, but it's just the way it should be handled. The ship is old and battle scarred. Things keep breaking. This reminds us of that without going overboard, and I like it a lot.
2. Lampkin. He was played real well in this episode. When he first showed up I didn't really have a strong feeling of liking the character, but he finished strong and made a real impression. The last bit with the cane was a nice touch.
3. Hogan. He does great with Tigh, but he was above par again this episode.
4. Lee's speech. I still hate the little fucker, but he brought up some good points and even demonstrated the forgiveness factor later as he took to his Viper. (honestly I don't see the problem here. They're facing a massive fleet, is anyone REALLY going to stick to regs if he wants to get in a cockpit to help defend the last of their people? Even when he put a gun to Tigh's head, he was still able to keep his job and fly his Viper in defense of the fleet. Father and son petty bickering takes a back seat when 5+ basestars show up. This should be obvious.) The evidence that the prosecution had just wasn't enough, even though we all know he is the traitor Roslin knows him to be.
A lot of the good of the episode kind of gets swept away in the last 10 minutes with the OMG moments.