Realistic wanked out swords/close range weapons in sci-fi.

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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Adrian Laguna wrote: Depends on the quality of the chest plate. The phrase "bullet proof" comes from smiths literally proving the protectiveness of their armour against bullets by shooting it. That's why even into the 1500s people wore chest plates and helmets, they still provided protection.
That test was done using a handgun, as might be carried by another mounted knight, not against a round from a rifle. The best plate armor might have stopped a round from an early matchlock some of the time, but improvements in the Arquebus quickly changed that. At the Battle of Pavia this weapon killed more then eight thousand well armored French knights, the battle is considered to be the formal end of the armored knight in combat.

Beowulf wrote: Similarly, a number of light armored vehicles aren't proof against .50 BMG fire. An uparmored HMMWV isn't proof against .50 BMG. Such weapons are usually crew served anyway. You can put different amounts of armor on different facings as well. Also, you don't necessarily need to armor all parts of the body to the same extent. We're looking at increasing survivability, not necessarily making the troops invulnerable to all threats. Instead of having to armor several dozen square feet to be able to defeat .50 BMG, you only have to armor maybe 3 square feet.
That lack of armor is exactly why the US Army and Marines DIDN’T have hoards of armored hummves in 2003; the vehicle has virtually no value in conventional fighting and was assigned mainly to MP and certain support units. In a conventional fight they’d simply be torn to pieces by just about everything. As it is even against the much more limited threat in Iraq hummves still get shredded, and some of those MRAP vehicles weigh three times as much.

If you’re going to pay a million dollars for a powered suit, and realistically they’ll probably cost even more then that by the time we can build one, it really does need that kind of protection. The world has hoards of anti tank rifle designs floating around these days; most are vastly cheaper then an M82, and many fire the 14.5x114mm cartridge with twice the muzzle energy. If the suits become practical, then guns like that will be fielded in vast numbers an vast numbers of heavy machine guns are already all over the place. You can’t expect the threat not to evolve to match a whole new type of weapon like a powered suit.

3sqft is unrealistic for the front target profile, 7-8 sqft is a more likely minimal, and even with titanium armor this would still weigh at least 200lb to provide protection against .50cal ball ammo at 500 meters. You’d need at least twice that to have decent protection against AP rounds at a much closer range.
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Post by Sarevok »

A power armor does not have to be an invincible walking tank though. The body armor troops now wear can be pierced but they use as much as possible without hindering mobility. Now imagine the best body armor like those worn by explosives people but without the mobiliy hit. That could help reduce soldier deaths. Plus forcing enemy to use heavy guns just to kill one guy robs them of many small arms
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sarevok wrote:A power armor does not have to be an invincible walking tank though.
It had better be pretty goddamned tough, in order to be worth the cost of dozens of conventional light armoured vehicles.
The body armor troops now wear can be pierced but they use as much as possible without hindering mobility.
Or making them much bigger, bulkier, heavier, more cumbersome, more logistically expensive, noisy, etc.
Now imagine the best body armor like those worn by explosives people but without the mobiliy hit.
While we're at it, let's just imagine armour without weight, vehicles without fuel or maintenance requirements, or gunshot wounds without pain.
That could help reduce soldier deaths. Plus forcing enemy to use heavy guns just to kill one guy robs them of many small arms
Compared to the number of weapons they would need in order to take out the dozens of conventional light armoured vehicles you could deploy for the same price? The enemy would save on weapons.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Well you aren’t likely to be able to deploy dozens of light armored vehicles for the price of one suit, unless it costs as much as an F-16. Armored hummves go for around a quarter million bucks in a ready to fight condition and the various MRAP designs average about 1 million (in part because of smaller protection scale). A more substantial medium weight Stryker ICV costs several million.

Still, I’d take three or four vehicles over one suit in most any terrain.
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Post by Starglider »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Starglider wrote: The number of systems in a pigeon is actually higher than the number in an F-22. But dogs and pigeons can be manufactured at negligable cost and require almost zero maintenance as long as they're fueled - because their base 'technology' is very robust and reliable, and because they don't require large dedicated assembly lines. We can't do anything like that with current technology, but we'll get there eventually.
Er, wait, so you're saying your powersuit is going to be organowank tech? If not, I fail to see the point.
No. I should have been more clear here. I'm not talking about the specific design of organic systems (which sucks of course), I'm pointing out the fact that self assembly makes them extremely cheap. This is the best available analogy for things such as nanomanipulator arrays and microscale production lines; they can create very complicated things at little premium over simple bulk composites of the same mass. This is somewhat out of place compared to my other arguments which are mostly focusing on near-future power armour possibilities. My point was that in the long term, manufacturing cost may well become dominated by mass and volume, with minimal premium for complexity.
Shorrt of some sortt of magic sci fi self repair, replication tech, or nanomagic I don't se emost machines emulating that.
Motile nanoassemblers and self-replication is much, much harder than static limited-purpose nanomanipulators and microscale assembly lines. The former is needed for self-repair, the later is all you need to cut manufacturing costs by two or three orders of magnitude. While the former isn't /strictly/ wank, in that it is /physically/ possible, it's going to take a huge amount of additional angineering work over the later.
There's no fundamental reason why you'd generate a huge heat signature. Humans are only about 10% efficient at converting energy into motion.
And? The enviromental systems will need cooling (the human inside it has to be kept at a comfortable temperature) and that heat has to be disposed of. So right there alone you have temp equal to a normal person. On top of that, if your power armour has increased performance, I imagine the inefficiencies will be likewise magnified, depending on how "impressive" it is.[/quote]

The human won't be exerting maximum effort. My point was that with 80% efficient actuators and a 400kg suit, the suit alone will generate the same amount of waste heat as a human moving at the same speed - adding a human inside is only going to take the heat signature to 150% of a normal human. In practice it might well be 200%, but remember that the suit can dump most of that out of vents or a radiator on the back, reducing the forward IR profile. 200% of a normal human is trivial compared to the IR signature of a HMMVV.
Then there's the powerplant. I assume you have evidencee regarding the whole fuel cell thing?
80% thermal efficiency is currently achieved by lab prototypes. Production hydrogen cells are more like 40-50% efficient. Lithium batteries top 95% thermal efficiency and supercapacitors top 99%, but of course the energy density on those is currently inadequate by an order of magnitude. I'm not claiming that power armour is practical using existing technologies; clearly it isn't otherwise someone would already have built it. I'm saying that it may well be practical using near-future technologies, and that this is plausible enough that the question of how to defeat it is interesting.
If oyhu have something wonky like a jet pack, that obviously can add.
Jet packs of any tactical utility are /not/ plausible given near-future technology.
Depending on your weapons, that can ALSO bea problem (unless you have some blaster like soft sci fi weapon that is impluasibly efficient.) Lasers and probably even regular slugtrhowers are going to be noticable.
Yes but all infantry using them will have that problem, so it's hardly a drawback for powered armour. No one was claiming that power armoured troops are going to be /more/ stealthy than normal infantry.
And as an added concern, how do you dispose of the heat? Any radiator (aside from a magic one like Sw uses) is going to be both highly detecable
Ah but only from one hemisphere. That can be quite useful.
and vulnerable to damage.
Passive radiators and parallel heatpipes are very robust. Automotive-style liquid cooling is somewhat more fragile, but armoured vehicles have no problem with using them to deal with much higher heat loads.
Electric motors (for example) are >90% efficient.
you have proof I imagine?
Of course, that's trivial.
And even so, would this carry over when its acting in the way human bodies do (again bearing in myind your "dog and pigeon" analogy)
Yes, particularly if you use regenerative breaking to recover limb KE (something biological systems are not capable of other than minimal tendon elasticity energy storage).
It's just a question of which technology you use.
So basically its just "depends on what the author/universe hooses?"
For soft sci fi yes. For real life, it depends on what the timescale for various conceptual technologies becoming practical are. For example, bulk fabrication of nanotube weave or diamond whisker composites by (relatively) conventional chemistry would cut armour weight by a factor of four, without requiring nanoassemblers.
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Post by Zixinus »

It had better be pretty goddamned tough, in order to be worth the cost of dozens of conventional light armoured vehicles.
Or, one can argue that they must fill in a special niche point where their feats are worthy enough for their price. Such as environments where conventional infantry cannot move but for some reason, a powered suit can. inhabitable planet surfaces come to mind, and heavy assault on relatively sensitive targets, such as a research station where you want to enemy's research but can't use tanks. City fights also come into mind.

Here is another question: assume that melee weapons could be made out of any material. Would it be possible to pierce a power armour with one?
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Zixinus wrote:Here is another question: assume that melee weapons could be made out of any material. Would it be possible to pierce a power armour with one?
Of course you could, so long as you've got the force behind it to punch through the armour, or perhaps some sort of superfunky super-blade device that vibrates/superheats through (or something).
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Post by Starglider »

Zixinus wrote:Here is another question: assume that melee weapons could be made out of any material. Would it be possible to pierce a power armour with one?
When you hit something with a weapon, something has to deform to absorb the KE. It can be the armour, the weapon, the thing holding the weapon or the thing the armour is mounted on. The deformation can be elastic or inelastic. Making the weapon harder makes it more likely that the armour will be the thing that deforms. But in many cases it was the armour or its flexible mountings that was doing the deforming anyway. For anything other than monomolecular edges (and to some extent even for those) you very rapidly get dimminishing returns with using harder materials; more often than not the limiting factor is the kinetic energy you can put into the strike, not the instantaneous GPa pressure you can generate at the impact point.

For infantry there isn't a lot you can do about this without making the weapon powered somehow (impact hammers, chainswords, anime-style rocket tonfa, whatever).
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Starglider wrote:For infantry there isn't a lot you can do about this without making the weapon powered somehow (impact hammers, chainswords, anime-style rocket tonfa, whatever).
Or, for another example, drills.

The thing here is that you can't really advise carrying weapons like that, just in case you get into close combat with a guy in a suit of powered armour, as you're lookng at too much weight for such a situation. It probably wouldn't be advisable to try, given that their enhanced strength might allow them to squeeze your head and get an intruiging popping effect.

The size of their powered armour mmight also preclude it being useful at all. It could work if the guy's armour isn't that much bigger than you, but what if the designer is a madman who prefers to have the pilot curled up in an impact gel filled coffin inside a body twice your height? You're back to shaped charge sticky grenades, of course.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The best plate armor might have stopped a round from an early matchlock some of the time, but improvements in the Arquebus quickly changed that. At the Battle of Pavia this weapon killed more then eight thousand well armored French knights, the battle is considered to be the formal end of the armored knight in combat.
That was in 1525, which fits with what I said. Though it was arquebusiers and pikemen who slaughtered the French knights.
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Post by Darth Wong »

It seems to me that there's some kind of vision of combat which is drawn from WW2 movies, where the enemy has a machine-gun nest or pillbox and your heavily armoured Doom Knight marches resolutely toward it, shrugging off machine-gun fire until it mows them down with its superior firepower.

How would this vehicle be used in a realistic situation? If it's patrolling, it won't have any more chance of surviving an IED blast than a Humvee would. If it gets ambushed by guerillas or insurgents, it moves slower and will have more trouble maneuvering than a Humvee. If it's supposed to replace infantry, it probably won't fit through a lot of doorways or be able to function in staircases or other tight quarters. You can't really talk to civilians or maintain a stabilizing occupation presence with these things, any more than soldiers who refuse to get out of tanks. If it's supposed to do battle with a clearly visible target on an open field, there are plenty of existing ways to take it out which will give you more bang for the buck than a wanky exosuit. What's it supposed to do?
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Darth Wong wrote:It seems to me that there's some kind of vision of combat which is drawn from WW2 movies, where the enemy has a machine-gun nest or pillbox and your heavily armoured Doom Knight marches resolutely toward it, shrugging off machine-gun fire until it mows them down with its superior firepower.
What's it supposed to do?
There's your answer. It's supposed to look awesome. Sure, a writer might give some sort of excuse about increased infantry survivability or something, but the chances are they just want a robotic death night killing stuff. Admittedly, you could just have a robot, but human characters are generally much easier for the reader to respond to, so they stick a person inside the can and go nuts.

Though if you want something that vaguely makes sense yet evokes some sort of human emotion, you end up with the Terminator films, and there's almost nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:It seems to me that there's some kind of vision of combat which is drawn from WW2 movies, where the enemy has a machine-gun nest or pillbox and your heavily armoured Doom Knight marches resolutely toward it, shrugging off machine-gun fire until it mows them down with its superior firepower.
Firstly, if the enemy has a position like that with one or more emplaced heavy weapons, not only is a power armoured guy not going to get close, a light armoured vehicle will probably get blown away by RPGs or a TOW missile as well. The correct response is to call in the artillery or air support, or failing that lob a few mortar or RPG rounds at it.

The advantage of power armour is that you can conduct mobile operations (including clearing out insurgents who you know are hiding in the area) without worrying about running into a group of light infantry who will ruin your whole day with a close-range gun battle. Armoured vehicles suck in towns, in buildings/caves, in forests and in mountainous terrain. Power armour may also be good for capturing dug in positions in combination with artillery and air attack; you can start charging in earlier, because the armoured troops can shrug off shrapnel and blast that would cause light infantry to take friendly fire casualties, and enemy popping up out of foxholes once the bombs stop falling won't be able to plug your power armoured troops with their personal weapons.
If it gets ambushed by guerillas or insurgents, it moves slower and will have more trouble maneuvering than a Humvee.
Only if there's a road or at least a decently open space. Such things are rather uncommon in the jungles of Vietnam or the mountains of Afghanistan.
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Post by Sikon »

Presumably, if practical power armor was developed, a goal would be to fulfill applications which can not be satisfied with regular armored vehicles.

Imagine a criminal or insurgent hiding out deep within a building, armed with a pistol or rifle.

A tank can't fit through the doorway. A regular soldier is very vulnerable to bullets, even from the average civilian weapon or from a cheaply made AK-47 equivalent that takes little tech base for an enemy group without sophisticated industrial infrastructure to obtain.

But what if the equivalent of a Space Marine enters the building and searches it, in terms of someone in power armor such that shooting him with bullets from ordinary guns doesn't stop him?

Often anti-tank weapons may be far more difficult for a criminal or insurgent to acquire and conceal than regular guns. Also, there may be other disadvantages of trying to use anti-tank weapons to take out a power-armored infantryman in close combat. For example, if an insurgent fires a RPG indoors at someone in power armor in the same room, ten feet away, consider the effect of firing it so far under intended minimum range (or minimum arming range), not only in regard to backblast but also in regard to potentially (definitely?) lethal shrapnel from the rocket propelled grenade's shaped-charge explosive warhead detonating a few feet in front of the insurgent's face.

Factors having to be met for power armor to work well in the preceding situation include: (1) technology such that a suitable suit fits through doorways and (2) situational advantages over alternatives which may exist at the time such as robots. But, in some possible future scenarios, power armor may have applications.

The average building's structure would not collapse under the weight of a power-armored soldier several times the weight of a person.

When a 100-kg person jumps on a floor, they can be deaccelerating at several g's at the time of impact, temporarily exerting several hundred kg of force, but, as anyone knows from personal experience, someone can jump up and down without crashing through the average floor.

Even the average staircase can handle several people with a combined weight of a few hundred kilograms standing on it at once, even if on the same step.

With future technology possible within the laws of physics in a hard sci-fi scenario, there may be special capabilities possible with the extra weight of hardware able to be carried by power armor.
The folks at Vision Systems International of San Jose, California, who have designed advanced U.S. military helmets for the F-15, F-16, and F/A-18, make their living at the nexus between man and machine. VSI’s flagship program is the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System. It uses a magnetic field in the cockpit to sense the orientation of the helmet, then feeds information on the current line-of-sight to the aircraft’s flight computer. VSI’s helmet has an accuracy of about four milliradians, an angular measure commonly used in the world of shooting and targeting. One milliradian equates to one one-thousandth the distance to the target. So if the target is 1,000 feet away, you’d be accurate to within a foot.
From here

The above is tracking where the pilot looks as judged by their helmet orientation, but there is starting to be research on eyeball tracking, which may lead to weapons which aim as fast as the human eye rotates to focus.

Incorporating a future-tech equivalent of the above targeting system, there might be applications for partially computer controlled weapons where, once a physical safety is disengaged, a soldier can shoot an enemy at moderate range in less time than involved conventionally to aim and fire. Perhaps a soldier in suitable power armor might shoot at the speed of thought rather than suffering from the delay it takes for nerve impulses going between the brain and hand, helping reduce reaction time.

This is a bit reminiscent of SDN versus threads where someone with instant telekinesis at the speed of thought is imagined to potentially take out a regular soldier faster than they raise their rifle, aim, and fire ... yet done through hard sci-fi technology rather than imaginary powers.

Objections to such being the sole weaponry relied upon by the soldier can be less applicable if such is simply a supplement, as may be possible with the extra weight able to be carried with power armor. Currently, the majority of the time, police miss their targets even at close range (in part due to the stress of combat), and no doubt military peacekeepers face complications too. Of course, good training is critical and may help, but technology might too, including the confidence provided by being bullet-resistant.

Power armor could allow carrying heavy weaponry, such as machineguns, semi-automatic grenade launchers, or the future equivalent, increasing the ability to hit targets hiding behind cover.

Another possible advantage might be being able to carry the extra weight of sophisticated sensors, such as possible future implementation of terahertz imaging and seeing through walls (plus through clothes concealing weapons). Imagine being able to see and shoot through a wall, to eliminate enemies setting up an ambush inside the next room of a building.

Over the past half century at least, there has been a trend towards more expensive military hardware and towards low-intensity conflicts like peacekeeping, where only a small number of troops may be involved relative to the total economy. Perhaps such may continue in the future, towards a point where the ratio of money to soldiers becomes far greater than now.

In WWII, the U.S. had peak military spending of $930 billion (converted into about today's dollars), while having around 13 million total soldiers and personnel in the armed forces. Today, although a lesser percentage of the total economy due to growth in population and GDP per capita, military spending is upwards of $500 billion, more than half as much, while the number of soldiers and personnel is vastly less than half as much, only 0.5 million total in the Army aside from more in the other branches. The ratio of money to soldiers has already increased a number of times. It already is the case that the military budget is upwards of $5 trillion a decade, while the number of combat troops is not more than hundreds of thousands.

The ratio is upwards of $10 million per decade per combat soldier, although, of course, the total military budget is divided between many purposes, from R&D and base maintenance to the Air Force, Navy, logistics, etc. Even with only a small portion of the total being conceivably allocated for infantry equipment alone, the potential ratio of affordable hardware cost to the number of troops is high.

Imagine if this ratio further increases in the future.

At some point, even if power armor suits did cost a million dollars each, equipping a portion of a future army with such in a small-scale conflict might be a small portion of the total military budget of the time.

For example, some soldiers being equipped with power armor might be advantageous in a peacekeeping mission facing technologically inferior opponents, conducting operations such as searching buildings.

Developing power armor isn't practical today, but future technology might make it sometimes worthwhile, in some decade or century, if its application niches aren't displaced by robots.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Starglider wrote: Only if there's a road or at least a decently open space. Such things are rather uncommon in the jungles of Vietnam or the mountains of Afghanistan.
I don’t know what would make you think an armored suit would be remotely mobile in Vietnam, given how much mud it has and the tight clearance in forests. The effectiveness in mountains would depend on just how steep they are, but you can be sure the suit will reach impassable terrain before men on foot do.

Just thinking here, but probably the best environment for a suit would be a moderately dense suburb, when you have a fair bit of space around buildings but not so much that a normal vehicle can just drive all around them freely.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Just thinking here, but probably the best environment for a suit would be a moderately dense suburb, when you have a fair bit of space around buildings but not so much that a normal vehicle can just drive all around them freely.
It's almost certain that if you really needed it anywhere, it would be in a maze. Assuming it's not super-large or anything (that is to say, not much larger than a normal person), then it would be able to move into places an equivalently armoured vehicle could not, and the tight quarters might make it harder for appropriate arms to be pointed in their direction.

plus, you can sort of envision them clambering up concrete walls to better vantage points, to an extent. :)
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

I was thinking of environments of a size large enough to matter, which might ever actually exist, not a giant maze world or a giant stair world.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Sea Skimmer wrote:I was thinking of environments of a size large enough to matter, which might ever actually exist, not a giant maze world or a giant stair world.
I didn't literally mean a maze Skimmer. Jeez, give me some credit. :P
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Post by Zixinus »

Besides tazers and impact weapons, is there anything real-world base that I could use?
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Post by Covenant »

Zixinus wrote:Besides tazers and impact weapons, is there anything real-world base that I could use?
You could make lethal cattleprods that would also set people on fire and make them spasm around for a while after contact. You could make some sort of a chemically cooled frostprod as a riot control weapon for people who are afraid of old ladies with heart devices that don't like tazers. A little frostbite never killed anyone fast.

Another gross weapon I thought up a while back is a stabby thing with a canister of pressurized gas. Could be any variety of stabby bit, really, but you'd want to pierce the skin a little before firing off the blast of gas into them. You'd probably cause some surface burns or make a big messy hole in their innards. If such weapons exist, then it's feasible really mean guys put their own mix of gas into the injection canister. If it was spiked with some sort of knockout drug then you might be able to blow a hole in them AND make them fall over and bleed to death. I have no idea how much gas pressure that would actually require--I think of it as doing damage the same way that a black powder burn does damage. The gas could be, for example, ignited or have some other negative connotation.

These aren't SENSIBLE weapons. The most sesible weapon is still a damn gun. However, it's just a starting point for an idea you could use.
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Post by Zixinus »

You could make some sort of a chemically cooled frostprod as a riot control weapon for people who are afraid of old ladies with heart devices that don't like tazers.
Rather make a glue-bomb of some kind that somehow avoids blocking air orifices.

But I like the idea, such a weapon would be quite threatening and would make a fairly good riot tool. Although, is there any other way without using chemicals? I imagine that with it, it would quickly run out.

As for the needle thing, I think that making it some kind of sticky grenade for sedating violent animals or even people, it might be useful.
Of course special bolt-like this for death commandos and among poorer criminals is also possible.
And as some nasty surprise in a tele-staff.

As for own ideas, I already had an idea for an impact sword-like weapon with a edge made out of diamond or even better material, specifically meant to be very deadly and even go trough power armour if need be. Warriors, proffesional soldiers in the somewhat tribal-like society spacers form, would use it and would have important quality. Spacers however do not like useless things, so they quickly transformed the ritual weapon to a practical one, making it shorter then usual medieval swords but still quite deadly at melee. Allot of blades are individual, and I was wondering what else can you make of melee weapons with modern or even sci-fi technology.
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Teleros
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Post by Teleros »

Zixinus wrote:
You could make some sort of a chemically cooled frostprod as a riot control weapon for people who are afraid of old ladies with heart devices that don't like tazers.
Rather make a glue-bomb of some kind that somehow avoids blocking air orifices.
Have a look at "pulsed energy projectiles" and that plasma taser weapon being developed - they'd probably work better for riot control than magic non-suffocating glue bombs.
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Post by Covenant »

What I meant was that the cooling would be from a chemical reaction instead of a big compressor assembly. You wouldn't SPRAY them. You'd just have a billyclub with one extremely cold end that you could use to create little frostburns to force people back without causing any variety of actual damage. The worst you'd probably get is some bruising, but cold (like electricity) has a strong psychological shock to it that can frighten people and get them to back off. You wouldn't want to spray someone with a chemical cooling agent, it could be bad if you breathed it in, which people are likely to start doing when they freak out.
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Post by Zixinus »

and that plasma taser weapon being developed
What plasma taser? The one where they ionise the air with a laser and send a shock trough it?
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Post by Teleros »

Zixinus wrote:
and that plasma taser weapon being developed
What plasma taser? The one where they ionise the air with a laser and send a shock trough it?
That'd be the one. New Scientist had a few things about them as they are at the moment:
New Scientist wrote:Meanwhile, Xtreme Alternative Defense Systems (XADS), based in Anderson, Indiana, will be one of the first companies to market another type of wireless weapon. Instead of using fibres, the $9000 Close Quarters Shock Rifle (pictured) projects an ionised gas, or plasma, towards the target, producing a conducting channel. It will also interfere with electronic ignition systems and stop vehicles. "We will be able to fire a stream of electricity like water out of a hose at one or many targets in a single sweep," claims XADS president Peter Bitar.

The gun has been designed for the US Marine Corps to use for crowd control and security purposes and is due out next year. It is based on early, unwieldy technology and has a range of only 3 metres, but an operator can debilitate multiple targets by sweeping it across them for "as long as there is an input power source," says Bitar.

XADS is also planning a more advanced weapon which it hopes will have a range of 100 metres or more. Instead of firing ionised gas, it will probably use a powerful laser to ionise the air itself. The idea has been around for decades, says LaVerne Schlie, a laser expert at the US Air Force Research Lab in Kirtland, New Mexico. It has only become practical with advances in high-power solid-state lasers. "Before, it took a laser about the size of two trucks," says Schlie. "Now we can do it with something that fits on a tabletop."

The laser pulse must be very intense, but can be brief. So the makers of the weapons plan to use a UV laser to fire a 5-joule pulse lasting just 0.4 picoseconds - equating to a momentary power of more than 10 million megawatts. This intense pulse - which is said not to harm the eyes - ionises the air, producing long, thread-like filaments of glowing plasma that can be sustained by repeating the pulse every few milliseconds. This plasma channel is then used to deliver a shock to the victims similar to a Taser's 50,000-volt, 26-watt shock.

HSV Technologies of San Diego, California is also working on stun and vehicle-stopping shock weapons with ranges of over 100 metres. And another company, Ionatron of Tuscon, Arizona, is due to supply a prototype wireless vehicle-mounted weapon to the US Department of Defense by the end of the year.
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