Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Imperial528]

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

The Sun Crusher could make a star nova with one tiny missile, and it could survive being inside the star when it went up. It is a 6 man craft, but only needs one pilot to function.

[Uncluttered]

So you can't provide any examples of OA silliness doing what people are claiming they will do with FTL technology? Funny way to concede, but ok.

No one is conceding. You are being humored; much like a small child.

I wish you and your goat the best of luck.

[Uncluttered]

<GIANT WALL OF TEXT>

AHHHH.. MY EYES!!

Friend.
You might have written the most brilliant thing ever, but no one is going to read it unless you make some effort towards usability.

One more thing.
Unless you are M. Kazlev, or George Lucas.
Stop with the "US vs Them" crap.
(Yes. I realize you aren't the only one doing it.)

-Uncluttered

[asedra]

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

The Sun Crusher could make a star nova with one tiny missile, and it could survive being inside the star when it went up. It is a 6 man craft, but only needs one pilot to function.

-LOL. Weren't you the one complaining about my comparison between a conversion bomb to a supernovae? And then you just went right ahead and made that mistake too. But the fact is, when a giant star goes supernova, it only converts a small portion of its mass into energy. The total energy output from a supernova can be up to *1X44 Joules, and this is from one which is much more than our sun, mind you. Whereas a conversion bomb can take a much smaller star, and put out even more energy. How, you ask? Because, more of the stars mass is being converted to energy. One kilogram of matter converted to energy is 1.8x17 Joules, and since the mass of the sun is 1.98X30 kilograms, this will yield my aforementioned 6.6X46 Joules (since 33% of the stars mass is being converted to energy). Although, lets be honest, if the Sun Crusher was busting the sun (and not a much larger star), the explosion would be far far smaller than * this figure, since only a tiny portion of its mass is being converted into energy. Resonance torpedoes loose out to conversion bombs. We win. Again.

-Not to mention that the sun crusher was not shown to be capable of actually surviving in the core of an active star, just of surviving its death (at least, provided it was a fair distance away from the explosion). Anyway, even if its outer skin was impenetrable (as claimed), so what? Its hollow. Pound on it with a gigantic amount of force, and it will cave in. The Sun Crusher has vulnerable internal components, and a meat crew. Subject them to enough G-forces, and they will shatter. Also, you failed to mention that the crafts weapons load out is limited to a mere 8 resonance torpedoes, and a handful of puny laser cannons. Its going to need a strong escort to survive long enough to do its mission.

[Uncluttered]

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

The Sun Crusher could make a star nova with one tiny missile, and it could survive being inside the star when it went up. It is a 6 man craft, but only needs one pilot to function.

A good point. And I hope you don't mind too much if I ask a few questions regarding it.

I was under the impression the super wank within wank weapon went the way of the ST genesis device.
Does the SW galaxy have the blueprints and infrastructure to build a new suncrusher?
Assuming a second attempt would take less time, how long did it take them to develop it the first time?

That being said, I suspect an all out war with suncrushers and conversion bombs would reach a quick ceasefire.

[asedra]

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

The Sun Crusher could make a star nova with one tiny missile, and it could survive being inside the star when it went up. It is a 6 man craft, but only needs one pilot to function.

A good point. And I hope you don't mind too much if I ask a few questions regarding it.

I was under the impression the super wank within wank weapon went the way of the ST genesis device.
Does the SW galaxy have the blueprints and infrastructure to build a new suncrusher?
Assuming a second attempt would take less time, how long did it take them to develop it the first time?

That being said, I suspect an all out war with suncrushers and conversion bombs would reach a quick ceasefire.

-Yes, when the other side has the upper hand, cry 'Wank!'

-Anyway, while I do agree that a ceasefire would be reached EVENTUALLY, the conversion bombs really aren't even our most powerful weapons. We have also dark angels, and god hammers.

-Not to mention, the archailects would be able to manage the war so much better than any man could. Light sleeping guardians, which work night and day, no need for rest, and able to react to any perceived threat. Misers, using the bare minimum of resources required to do the job right the first time, conserving their assets and using them in the most efficient manner possible. Built to think long term, to think proactively rather than reactively. Able not only to multi task on a hugely parallel level (dividing their attention among a vast input of stimuli which would overwhelm a human), but to hold multiple trains of thought. Toposophics play cosmic games of political power, perpetually fighting to stay one step ahead of their cousins, to counter their moves before they even made them. How do you possibly think such entity's can be outsmarted by mere men?

[Serafina]

You loose for a simple reason: Lack of FTL.

Logistics wins wars. Superior speed grants superior logistics.
No amount of AI-wanking will change that. You are bringing that up again and again and AGAIN - "ai fixes everything, ai wins the war", without explaining HOW and WHY.

Besides, you AIs hardly play "cosmic plays of power", given that they have only settled a small part of the galaxy.

[asedra]

-No, I don't assume they know all physics. Certainly not SW wanktastic hypermatter But, as I said, they don't need as thorough an introduction into the field in order to catch the hang of it. In the same way that, whereas you need to repeat a certain routine with a monkey dozens of times before he hits his stride, a human only needs to be shown ONCE.

And again - you are focussing on intelligence, and on intelligence alone. That's why i call you an AI-wanker.
You are ignoring all the other problems.

-I don't think you give intelligence enough credit, my dear friend. Our sapience is, above all, the one factor which distinguishes us from all other animals, is it not? Were it not for that, we would be no more than ridiculous, bipedal apes, at the mercy of predators and the enviornment. We rule our planet, learning the universe's deepest secrets, and its all because of that supercomputer that sits between your eyes.

[/quote]Okay. So first you are wanking about how OA is "hard sci-fi" (even tough that's blatantly wrong) - and then you are appealing to semi-magical nova bombs that can somehow make a star go supernova instantly, super-powerful, unrealistic supernovas produced by those, and a 100% efficiency process (not that it'll help you, since SW-sensors can detect gravity).

-Stop shooting yourself in the foot, fool! LOL. Remember the sun crusher? Yeah, that's a SW invention. The warsies are guilty of the same faults you accuse the OA boys of. And no, conversion bombs are not 100% efficient, more like 33%. They work on a chain reaction principle. And you can detect gravity, whoop die fucking do! As soon as your star gets mined by a conversion bomb, that territory will need to be evacuated IMMEDIATELY, and any resources around it will be lost. Shipping yards, planets, their fuckin' gone. The only thing that'll escape are your pseudo scientific FTL hyperdive (magic) equipped ships.

I think a smart person will see the errors of your ways here.

-You obviously haven't seen yours, so you must not be smart.

[/quote]Furthermore, capturing the energy of something or producing it on your own are two different things. One is not necessarily superior to the other, but in this case it's pretty clear that OA has nothing that matches the reactor outputs of SW.

-And what exactly do you mean by producing it, hmm? I assume you are referring to hypermatter? Yeah, sorry, but the warsies don't produce that, they harvest it from the realm of hyperspace (magic land). And about our capabilitys not matching yours, you are simply wrong. The sun puts out enough energy in a week to supply your fabled death star, the pinnacle of imperial firepower, does it not? Yeah, we harvest that shit. That's what dysons spheres are for.

[/quote]So what? The ability to build a skyscraper does not translate into the ability to build a microchip.
It's evident that you do not understand the meaning of the word "infrastructure" or "factory".

-Hahaha, your a very funny girl, that's the same argument a trekkie tried to use on me once. You should go check out the page your websites creator made, rebuking such arguments. Anyway, if anything, I would say our ability to make small things is even superior to our large scale architecture (its a given, what with nanotech, femtotech, and toposophic AI which require such tiny, ultra precise chips).

[/quote]There is no basis for that assumption.

-It certainly is. Go back and read the last dozen or so comments from people who are steamed with the lame ass, cheating tactics you and your pals are using. I will retrieve them for you if you aren't willing. Anyway, my problem is that you are using these cheaters tactics to rule out our AIs ability to work as advertised - which violates one of the stipulations by the administrator. 'ALL TECHNOLOGY'S WORK AS ADVERTISED', no?

[/quote]But hey - let's play your little game. All your AIs are now just large, very slow computers that are slowly breaking down due to gravity. Your wormholes go POOF, since they don't work with real science either. Your reactionless drives stop working, your nanotech breaks down.

-(Yawn) I grow tired of your attempts to invalidate the toposophics. What is it that you do not understand about 'Everything works as advertised'? Or is their another factor at work here? Is the average joe (or jane) simply unwilling, or unable to comprehend that the human brain is not the be all or end all of computer design? Although the brains processing power (quantified as operations per second) is impressive, it is laughably slow: Only 200 hertz. A computer today can manage about 3 billion hertz. What, in your uneducated opinion, would happen when a computer with the same processing power as a human (but with the ability to think 15 million times faster) becomes self aware? You get a very, very fierce some competitor, able to beat you at a lot more than just math or chess. When combined with the ability to change its source code, and update its software, you have a recursively improving seed AI, something which can grow to toposophic level intellect in decades. Keep in mind, that unlike fictional FTL technology's, there is no scientific reason which rules out the emergence of strong AI. I guess, in all your human supremacist bluster, you failed to take this into consideration. Does not compute indeed.

[asedra]

-Whoa, these fucking quate things take some time to get used to. I'm just making it worse, fuck it. I'll repost: Sorry for the mess ups, guys. The middle of an argument is not a good time to be picky.

'Okay. So first you are wanking about how OA is "hard sci-fi" (even tough that's blatantly wrong) - and then you are appealing to semi-magical nova bombs that can somehow make a star go supernova instantly, super-powerful, unrealistic supernovas produced by those, and a 100% efficiency process (not that it'll help you, since SW-sensors can detect gravity).'
-Stop shooting yourself in the foot, fool! LOL. Remember the sun crusher? Yeah, that's a SW invention. The warsies are guilty of the same faults you accuse the OA boys of. And no, conversion bombs are not 100% efficient, more like 33%. They work on a chain reaction principle. And you can detect gravity, whoop die fucking do! As soon as your star gets mined by a conversion bomb, that territory will need to be evacuated IMMEDIATELY, and any resources around it will be lost. Shipping yards, planets, their fuckin' gone. The only thing that'll escape are your pseudo scientific FTL hyperdive (magic) equipped ships.

'I think a smart person will see the errors of your ways here.'
-You obviously haven't seen yours, so you must not be smart.

'Furthermore, capturing the energy of something or producing it on your own are two different things. One is not necessarily superior to the other, but in this case it's pretty clear that OA has nothing that matches the reactor outputs of SW.'
-And what exactly do you mean by producing it, hmm? I assume you are referring to hypermatter? Yeah, sorry, but the warsies don't produce that, they harvest it from the realm of hyperspace (magic land). And about our capabilitys not matching yours, you are simply wrong. The sun puts out enough energy in a week to supply your fabled death star, the pinnacle of imperial firepower, does it not? Yeah, we harvest that shit. That's what dysons spheres are for.

'So what? The ability to build a skyscraper does not translate into the ability to build a microchip.It's evident that you do not understand the meaning of the word "infrastructure" or "factory".'
-Hahaha, your a very funny girl, that's the same argument a trekkie tried to use on me once. You should go check out the page your websites creator made, rebuking such arguments. Anyway, if anything, I would say our ability to make small things is even superior to our large scale architecture (its a given, what with nanotech, femtotech, and toposophic AI which require such tiny, ultra precise chips).

'There is no basis for that assumption.'
-It certainly is. Go back and read the last dozen or so comments from people who are steamed with the lame ass, cheating tactics you are using. I will retrieve them for you if you aren't willing. Anyway, my problem is that you are using these cheaters tactics to rule out our AIs ability to work as advertised - which violates one of the stipulations by the administrator. 'ALL TECHNOLOGY'S WORK AS ADVERTISED', no?

'But hey - let's play your little game. All your AIs are now just large, very slow computers that are slowly breaking down due to gravity. Your wormholes go POOF, since they don't work with real science either. Your reactionless drives stop working, your nanotech breaks down.'
-(Yawn) I grow tired of your attempts to invalidate the toposophics. What is it that you do not understand about 'Everything works as advertised'? Or is their another factor at work here? Is the average joe (or jane) simply unwilling, or unable to comprehend that the human brain is not the be all or end all of computer design? Although the brains processing power (quantified as operations per second) is impressive, it is laughably slow: Only 200 hertz. A computer today can manage about 3 billion hertz. What, in your uneducated opinion, would happen when a computer with the same processing power as a human (but with the ability to think 15 million times faster) becomes self aware? You get a very, very fierce some competitor, able to beat you at a lot more than just math or chess. When combined with the ability to change its source code, and update its software, you have a recursively improving seed AI, something which can grow to toposophic level intellect in decades. Keep in mind, that unlike fictional FTL technology's, there is no scientific reason which rules out the emergence of strong AI. I guess, in all your human supremacist bluster, you failed to take this into consideration. Does not compute indeed.

[Junghalli]

Besides, you AIs hardly play "cosmic plays of power", given that they have only settled a small part of the galaxy.

The Terragen Sphere is what, 10,000 light years radius? That's still pretty huge. It's about 4% of the galaxy's disk - which doesn't sound like much until you realize this is a volume that would contain billions of stars. It's small by volume* compared to Star Wars, but OA has a perfectly respectable claim on being a vast setting.

* Actually I wouldn't be too surprised if the Empire is smaller than OA in terms of actual settled star systems, just spread over a much larger volume. Most of the numbers I've heard for the Empire suggest millions or tens of millions of planets, which is pretty thin for a MW-sized galaxy (about one in every few thousand stars). Tens of millions of worlds could certainly fit inside the radius of the Terragen Sphere. I dimly remember reading somewhere on OA about "billions of population centers" but that's pretty uselessly ambiguous.

[asedra]

You loose for a simple reason: Lack of FTL.

Logistics wins wars. Superior speed grants superior logistics.
No amount of AI-wanking will change that. You are bringing that up again and again and AGAIN - "ai fixes everything, ai wins the war", without explaining HOW and WHY.

Besides, you AIs hardly play "cosmic plays of power", given that they have only settled a small part of the galaxy.

-LOL. Did the emperor ever compete with a transapient for control of the galaxy, someone who can out think him in a heartbeat? I think not. Superintelligence is something the empire is totally unprepared to deal with.
-In addition, you have completely, utterly failed to comprehend what a game changing factor intelligence was to mankind. It turned us from simple animals into the masters of the fucking earth. The things we can do now (compared to what mere apes can do) is insane, and its all due to just a slight increase in intelligence. What do you think a large (no, a very, very large) increase could do?

[Uncluttered]

You loose for a simple reason: Lack of FTL.

Wow. Speaking of simple..it's Serafina...

Fine. OA uses there reactionless drive technology to create gravity wells. You might know these as Interdictors.
Now every time you jump into a system, you have to fight or die.

Logistics wins wars. Superior speed grants superior logistics.
No amount of AI-wanking will change that. You are bringing that up again and again and AGAIN - "ai fixes everything, ai wins the war", without explaining HOW and WHY.

Besides, you AIs hardly play "cosmic plays of power", given that they have only settled a small part of the galaxy.

Do I need to separate you kids? I swear if you both don't stop I'm going to stop this car right here, and there will be no icecream.

This is so unproductive.
Lets change the premise so you have to write things that require thought, instead of vomiting up bits of previously digested extraneous details.

OP, you down with this?

WAR BETWEEN OA AND SW!!
Empire gets 1 year lead before OA reverse engineers, OR BUYS, Hyperdrive,Turbolasers,Shields from the Nemoidians.
(Or have you forgotten AGAIN that SW and OA are NOT monolithic blocks of zombies)
Empire gets 6 months before OA builds interdictors based off of the reactionless drive technology.

OK? GO!

[Serafina]

What the hell is so difficult about using the quote function properly?

-I don't think you give intelligence enough credit, my dear friend. Our sapience is, above all, the one factor which distinguishes us from all other animals, is it not? Were it not for that, we would be no more than ridiculous, bipedal apes, at the mercy of predators and the enviornment. We rule our planet, learning the universe's deepest secrets, and its all because of that supercomputer that sits between your eyes.

Yes, intelligence is important. So what? You are also ignoring other crucial human abilities, such as strong social bonds and the ability to pass knowledge down trough writing and similar methods.

That doesn't change the fact that all the intelligence in the world doesn't allow you to build a car if you don't have the necessary infrastructure. Sure, you can start building the infrastructure. Do you know how much infrastructure you would have to build to get from zero to the ability to build a modern car? You can't just build a modern steel mill from scratch, you need complex machine tools to do that. You need complex machines to construct it. You need high-quality building materials. You need computers to control certain processes. And so on, and so on.
And you don't just need that steel mill, but also microchip factories, and specialized machine tools, and other special materials etc. pp.

OA is in the same situation if they want to build SW-hyperdrives. They don't have the necessary materials. They don't have any factories that can build it. They don't have the materials necessary to build these factories. They don't have the factories to build these materials.
Worse, they don't actually have the knowledge how to build any of the necessary infrastructure. Studying a car won't tell you how to build the factory - and it won't tell you what the factory needed to be built.

Yes, they can try it out, and intelligence helps here - but it's not a magical solve-all-problems deus-ex-machina.

-Stop shooting yourself in the foot, fool! LOL. Remember the sun crusher? Yeah, that's a SW invention. The warsies are guilty of the same faults you accuse the OA boys of. And no, conversion bombs are not 100% efficient, more like 33%. They work on a chain reaction principle. And you can detect gravity, whoop die fucking do! As soon as your star gets mined by a conversion bomb, that territory will need to be evacuated IMMEDIATELY, and any resources around it will be lost. Shipping yards, planets, their fuckin' gone. The only thing that'll escape are your pseudo scientific FTL hyperdive (magic) equipped ships.

And as predicted, you didn't get it.
The problem is that you try to have your (imaginary) cake and eat it at the same time. You claim that OA is "pure sci-fi" because it's "hard" (even tough it isn't) - and then you appeal to things that are just as outlandish and scientifically nonsensical as the very things you criticize about soft sci-fi.
We have a word for it - it's called "hypocrisy".

-And what exactly do you mean by producing it, hmm? I assume you are referring to hypermatter? Yeah, sorry, but the warsies don't produce that, they harvest it from the realm of hyperspace (magic land). And about our capabilitys not matching yours, you are simply wrong. The sun puts out enough energy in a week to supply your fabled death star, the pinnacle of imperial firepower, does it not? Yeah, we harvest that shit. That's what dysons spheres are for.

The difference is, obviously, that a hypermatter-reactor is not a static object like a sun. Essentially, you are comparing a power plant to an engine - building an engine with the same power output as a power plant is quite impressive and a good indicator that your technology is more advanced, especially when your engine is much smaller.

-It certainly is. Go back and read the last dozen or so comments from people who are steamed with the lame ass, cheating tactics you and your pals are using. I will retrieve them for you if you aren't willing. Anyway, my problem is that you are using these cheaters tactics to rule out our AIs ability to work as advertised - which violates one of the stipulations by the administrator. 'ALL TECHNOLOGY'S WORK AS ADVERTISED', no?

Hey, moron - you can have it one of two ways:
-We arbitrarily disallow technologies from either universe. If we do that, then we can't have a discussion. It doesn't matter which is more "real", especially since OA is no more real or plausible than SW.
-We treat both universes technologies as working universally. No "but it doesn't work in OA"-bullshit, and vice versa.
Evidently, you do not understand the purpose of an illustration.

-(Yawn) I grow tired of your attempts to invalidate the toposophics. What is it that you do not understand about 'Everything works as advertised'? Or is their another factor at work here? Is the average joe (or jane) simply unwilling, or unable to comprehend that the human brain is not the be all or end all of computer design? Although the brains processing power (quantified as operations per second) is impressive, it is laughably slow: Only 200 hertz. A computer today can manage about 3 billion hertz. What, in your uneducated opinion, would happen when a computer with the same processing power as a human (but with the ability to think 15 million times faster) becomes self aware? You get a very, very fierce some competitor, able to beat you at a lot more than just math or chess. When combined with the ability to change its source code, and update its software, you have a recursively improving seed AI, something which can grow to toposophic level intellect in decades. Keep in mind, that unlike fictional FTL technology's, there is no scientific reason which rules out the emergence of strong AI. I guess, in all your human supremacist bluster, you failed to take this into consideration. Does not compute indeed.

So, tell me - how exactly does super-intelligence allow you to build things that you have no knowledge about? Knowledge and intelligence are two different things, the latter helps you acquiring the former, but not without input. OA lacks the abilities to get any notable input on "how to build hyperdrives".

And it's cute that you still think that OA is scientifically plausible.

[Uncluttered]

-Whoa, these fucking quate things take some time to get used to. I'm just making it worse, fuck it. I'll repost: Sorry for the mess ups, guys. The middle of an argument is not a good time to be picky.

Apology accepted. Please note that there is a "Preview" button.

Also, if you ask a mod nicely, he/she/? might be willing to erase it.

[Serafina]

-LOL. Did the emperor ever compete with a transapient for control of the galaxy, someone who can out think him in a heartbeat? I think not. Superintelligence is something the empire is totally unprepared to deal with.

Have the trans-sapients ever dealt with someone who can actually foresee the future?
Again, your whole argument is "AIs be smart, that meaning we win".

-In addition, you have completely, utterly failed to comprehend what a game changing factor intelligence was to mankind. It turned us from simple animals into the masters of the fucking earth. The things we can do now (compared to what mere apes can do) is insane, and its all due to just a slight increase in intelligence. What do you think a large (no, a very, very large) increase could do?

As above "AI, therefore instant win".


You are not even TRYING to address any of the other problems, such as logistics, differences in maneuverability, firepower, strategic speed and technology base. You are focusing ENTIRELY on a single issue, as if being smart allows you to overcome any challenge instantly.
That's why i am calling you an AI-wanker - because AI-wanking is your ENTIRE argument.

[Imperial528]

-Anyway, while I do agree that a ceasefire would be reached EVENTUALLY, the conversion bombs really aren't even our most powerful weapons. We have also dark angels, and god hammers.

Could we have some specs on feats of these dark angels and god hammers?

-Not to mention, the archailects would be able to manage the war so much better than any man could. Light sleeping guardians, which work night and day, no need for rest, and able to react to any perceived threat. Misers, using the bare minimum of resources required to do the job right the first time, conserving their assets and using them in the most efficient manner possible. Built to think long term, to think proactively rather than reactively. Able not only to multi task on a hugely parallel level (dividing their attention among a vast input of stimuli which would overwhelm a human), but to hold multiple trains of thought. Toposophics play cosmic games of political power, perpetually fighting to stay one step ahead of their cousins, to counter their moves before they even made them. How do you possibly think such entity's can be outsmarted by mere men?

I think you're missing a key thing here: Human generals have subordinates to carry out tasks for them, so as to lessen the work load, and when it comes to efficiency a human can have a specialized computer or a team of specialists figure out what is the most efficient plan for things such as logistics and manufacturing, and then have those things carried out.

Another thing is that your super-AIs rely on predicting the moves of the opponent. Obviously, if you've been rivals with the same other super-AI for the last, oh, three millenia you probably know how he thinks by now, as does he you, especially since these AIs are single entities, it would become trivial after a time to know what so-and-so is likely to do next, perhaps so much that you can bait so-and-so into doing what will be his downfall. This strategy is unlikely to work when facing a foe such as the Empire, since there are dozens of people with high command ranks, tens of thousands who have slightly lower command ranks, and hundreds of thousands of officers. Each of these persons is going to think differently and interpret their doctrine in their own different ways. At this scale, the trick of using patterns to predict enemy movements starts to break down, especially if the other side is wary of the AI's ability to predict based on patterns, since then you will never know who made what plan, and at this scale one could easily fight a multitude of defensive and offensive strategies at the same time. It may be different between human forces and AIs in OA's universe, but now they would be fighting a completely different opponent, and that opponent is known to be aggressive and is led by the greatest chess master ever, in-universe.

So far your AI argument has boiled down to "They're so smart!1!" and "They can think faster!1!" etc. Any military institution has been able to do for the last three thousands years what your AIs can do, all you've done is put it in one package, although it's not a very efficient one when it comes to effect/mass or effect/cost ratios.

Also, it would be helpful if you can define "super intelligence" because right now you're claiming it puts your AI far above and beyond any human, but when asked why it does you simply say that it does because that is what it does (circular argument), or at least that's what it seems like to me.

[Stark]

No one is conceding. You are being humored; much like a small child.

I wish you and your goat the best of luck.

So you've got evidence OA can reverse engineer entirely new science fast enough to be relevant? Can we see it?

[Junghalli]

-In addition, you have completely, utterly failed to comprehend what a game changing factor intelligence was to mankind. It turned us from simple animals into the masters of the fucking earth. The things we can do now (compared to what mere apes can do) is insane, and its all due to just a slight increase in intelligence. What do you think a large (no, a very, very large) increase could do?

I actually probably come a lot closer to agreeing with you than most people here, but I think trying to debate superintelligence is problematic. By definition it's difficult to predict for humans, especially when we're getting into scales of planet-sized computer vs human brain, and there are no real superintelligences to compare to. So we're basically left with vague unquantifiable appeals to superior intelligence. Regardless of whether that would have merit in a "realistic" scenario it's extremely hard to discuss intelligently, because we don't know its limits. Unless it can be quantified in some way that makes it rather weak as an "I win" card.

Now a good way to look at this would be to see if there are any vaguely analagous situations in OA canon and how they went down. I doubt that there really are though, but if superintelligence is going to be invoked as an "I win" card we need something better than vague appeals to it.

[Stark]

It's not just that Junghalli; The implicit assumption is that all or most processes are intelligence limited, which is simply not the case. If you're a million times smarter, and you're waiting for a package, how much faster will it arrive?

[Junghalli]

Hilariously if OA is still taking member submissions for articles like it was when I was a member (way long ago) you could probably throw the debate by signing up there and writing in stuff.

You probably couldn't successfully shoehorn anything too close to an "OA meets soft SF human civilization" scenario into their canon. But maybe submit a story about a ship that stumbles on a primitive planet (maybe twenty-first century level, when was the first SAI created in OA anyway?) that was wiped out by an unfriendly AI they created, and the AI captures the ship and in like a week or something ridiculous has reverse-engineered all its advanced tech and is pumping out superior robot warships. Then watch it being brought up in the next thread like this.

Edit: of course people could still (correctly) question whether the situations are actually analagous at all.

[Vendetta]

It's not just that Junghalli; The implicit assumption is that all or most processes are intelligence limited, which is simply not the case. If you're a million times smarter, and you're waiting for a package, how much faster will it arrive?

Obviously since superintelligent AI make FTL go away, your package will take even longer to arrive.

Interstellar courier trade collapses overnight. DAMN YOU SUPER-AI!

[Lord Insanity]

-And what exactly do you mean by producing it, hmm? I assume you are referring to hypermatter? Yeah, sorry, but the warsies don't produce that, they harvest it from the realm of hyperspace (magic land). And about our capabilitys not matching yours, you are simply wrong. The sun puts out enough energy in a week to supply your fabled death star, the pinnacle of imperial firepower, does it not? Yeah, we harvest that shit. That's what dysons spheres are for.

No the sun puts out enough energy in 8,000 years to supply the death star for one shot. You would need approximately 3 million Dyson spheres, all powering the same source, to equal one Death Star reactor. A single Dyson sphere catches about the same amount of energy as a mere Star Destroyer's reactor generates.

-Gosh, thats a heck of a lot of energy, isn't it? Something like, what 3x38 Joules? Guess what? A one solar mass star, when lit up by one of our conversion bombs, will release roughly 6.6X46 Joules of death, expanding in a spherical blast radius which none will survive. That beats out your death star out by a factor of, what, 200 million? Yeah, so I guess we beat you pretty badly in that department, especially when one considers that, whereas the galactic empire has only had one death star at a time, we have a fucking arsenal full of these converion bombs. Orions arm easily exceeds star wars in the game of mass destruction. But, I guess thats just wank, eh?

So does OA have any way of utilizing that power beyond a WMD that is dependent on using a nearby star. Really you don't see the difference between a Battle Station/Ship that generates its own power and can fire repeatedly, and a mere stellar bomb? A single Death Star is worth more than an arsenal of conversion bombs. OA doesn't even have FTL to get them anywhere in any useful time frame. The Death Star on the other hand has a hyperdrive and can literally show up anywhere in OA territory in a matter of (at most) hours.

[Batman]

An exploding star apparently releases 303.6J in OA. Which by some feat of mathematics I can't comprehend (no doubt because I haven't got the vast intellect of one of their AIs) is 200 million times more than 114J. Not that I see how the DS1 managed to blow up Alderaan with a 114J blast but we'll leave that for now.
Somehow, I'm not particularly impressed.

[asedra]

-Anyway, while I do agree that a ceasefire would be reached EVENTUALLY, the conversion bombs really aren't even our most powerful weapons. We have also dark angels, and god hammers.

Could we have some specs on feats of these dark angels and god hammers?

Certainly:
-God hammers are what you get when an excessively large neutron star or pulsar is artificially forced into firing a tremendously powerfull beam of energy into a wormhole, where they instantly hit a target (at least, depending on how far away the exit wormhole is from the target). They can release up to 1x44 Joules of energy in a narrow, focused beam, like the death star, only 1 million times stronger. The beam is delivered by a fairly tiny flying wormhole which is invulnerable to anything short of massive spacetime distortion weaponry. And I mean invulnerable. You could hit it directly with the Death Star and it wouldn't do anything, the beam being diffused when it goes out the 'feed' end and hitting things which aren't affected by massive energy gradients anyways.
-Dark angels are ships which are not only completly solid (I.E, no flesh and blood crew), but made of a superdense material. Through the use of some exotic form of tractor beam, they can tear apart the crust of a world, decelerate RKKS (ultra high-power kinetic impact munitions) into harmlessness, and spray swarms of sub-nanotech weapons. The outer hull of the sphere acts as a multi-frequency phased array capable of transmitting energy across the entire EM spectrum at a range of energies from weak radio broadcasts to multi-terrawatt lasers. Finally the outer hull of the central sphere seems to be capable of taking on the properties of the godtech material, ylem, able to convert incoming EM energy to matter with virtually 100% efficiency. In addition to that, dark angels have enough control to quite accurately throw your crew around the ship, or even better, throw your ship components around the ship.
-Things, I must note, that little in SW can stop. Shields are nice, but they die when your sun goes OMGWTFNOVA. Admiral daalas fleet of star destroyers were forced to abandon their attack when kryp durron stole the sun crusher and used it to mine a couple of stars with resonance torpedoes, or else they would have been destroyed (one of the star destroyers was, in fact). I believe that the sephirotics would hit a SW star system with a conversion bomb, while simultaneously (or perhaps as a cover) swarming their ships with dark angels, preventing an escape. DA can prevent escape with their tractor beam thingys (serving as a duplicate of the interdictor field).
-They also have ten centimeter spheres of death which mass millions of tons and can ram ships with rather extreme kinetic energy. When the AI Gods use them, these are planet cracking impactors, easily. As in twenty of them causes a planet to turn into rather interesting patterns of tiny asteroids flying around rapidly. Dark angels are built to stop hundreds of them. And in a minor skirmish between gods, they use thousands. Just to open up an assault. Thats why the artifints so rarely go to war, the collateral damage is horrific.
-Archailect computers (this is the high end stuff) are capable of predicting the future to a rather extreme extent, even the lesser ones. They due this by throwing massive computational power to a problem and finding a solution. One should also consider the fact that naked circuitry on the OA side survives inside stars, it's pretty damn impressive to live in the core of a fusing star, without any armor protection. Its not just the temperature, 15 million degrees celcius (a grain of sand at this temperature would burn you to death from 150 kilometers away), but the pressure, which is 250 billion bar. Not even the sun crusher has handled that kindof force.

[asedra]

An exploding star apparently releases 303.6J in OA. Which by some feat of mathematics I can't comprehend (no doubt because I haven't got the vast intellect of one of their AIs) is 200 million times more than 114J. Not that I see how the DS1 managed to blow up Alderaan with a 114J blast but we'll leave that for now.
Somehow, I'm not particularly impressed.

-The death stars blast was 3x38 Joules, not 1x14. Where the hell did you pull out that figure?
-A conversion bomb releases 6.6X46 Joules, which is 200 million times greater than the DS.
-The reason you are not impressed is because you read the comment wrong. OA pwns SW in the department of mass destruction, easily.