Avatar Military Wankers Read This First

[Knife]

My biggest complaint about Avatar is that I've seen it before, back when it was animated and called Fern Gully

I saw it way back when with Dances with Wolves, but then again, I saw most of it WAAAAY back when with Lawrence of Arabia too. The plot is a classic.

[NecronLord]

and they'll rush to defend it like a pack of slobbering mongoloids.

Yo Shroom, you know I like you man. But please don't call Down Syndrome people Mongoloids.

Can I call the milwankers mongoloids instead?

No. Just don't use the term, at all. This is one of these things that makes you look like a Nationalist Socialist, a proper one. Don't do it.

[NecronLord]

WRT problems which should/can not be solved by throwing more heavy metal at them, I certainly agree. OTOH, I dislike some of Avatar because I do admit I'm somewhat of a xenophobe.

But that comes from my opinion that any xenoform life we meet that we can communicate with on any semi-equal level is going to be mean, rather than any innate hatred of the not-like-me.

Killing primitives may still be a stupid idea. Especially if the Na'vi are, as speculated in universe, created by some external alien race. Wipe them out and a century later, you may end up fighting some hideous First Ones against whom there is absolutely no hope at-all.

If you're worried about hostile aliens then roving the galaxy picking fights is hardly likely to help.

Incidentally, this has me thinking, just how is the navigation of an ISV handled?

Pandorapedia provides:

Navigation:
1. Three-axis triangulation from reference stars during cruse phase.
2. Radar ranging when in proximity to planets and satellites.
3. Synthetic-aperture side-looking radar for surface mapping purposes.

[Hillary]

My biggest complaint about Avatar is that I've seen it before, back when it was animated and called Fern Gully

Aw, come on. Ferngully is an eternal classic. Avatar is Dances with Wolves IN SPAAAAAACE!

Isn't Dances With Wolves just a remake of A Man Called Horse

This thread is made of pure That people think the RDA is in any way justified in its actions is pretty fucking scary.

[Ilya Muromets]

No. Just don't use the term, at all. This is one of these things that makes you look like a Nationalist Socialist, a proper one. Don't do it.

Just to give some context into Shroom's casual use of the term, it's not just him trying to be shocking. The Philippines doesn't really find that term as offensive, and medical books still name drop the term without really clearly mentioning that it's been dropped due to being offensive in use. A lot of the time, Filipinos invariably end up with foot-in-mouth disease and use terms no one bats an eye at here, but is considered shockingly racist or offensive in other places. Admittedly, a lot of the terms our culture finds acceptable is pretty goddamn backward and insensitive. I think he might've tripped on that without real malice.

So, yeah, sorry about that. Our country needs more than a few lessons in that area.

[NecronLord]

I guessed as much, that's why he's not getting more than being told off and being told that it makes him look like a nazi, rather than my immediately proposing punishment for hate speech.

It's not the only country like that, I've seen a lot of Dutch and some French people, casually use terms that would be considered more than merely offensive in the United Kingdom, especially with regard to ethnic minorities.

[Whiskey144]

Killing primitives may still be a stupid idea. Especially if the Na'vi are, as speculated in universe, created by some external alien race. Wipe them out and a century later, you may end up fighting some hideous First Ones against whom there is absolutely no hope at-all.

If you're worried about hostile aliens then roving the galaxy picking fights is hardly likely to help.

Oh, absolutely; though I never advocated the idea that wiping out the Na'vi is a good idea because of my xenophobic tendencies. If anything, I'm more of a "don't send messages to aliens, 'cause you never know if the receiver is as much or more of a xenophobe than you are". Incidentally, that's my solution to the Fermi paradox; nobody's talking because everybody's scared witless that whoever they meet will try and kill them.

Pandorapedia provides:

Navigation:
1. Three-axis triangulation from reference stars during cruse phase.
2. Radar ranging when in proximity to planets and satellites.
3. Synthetic-aperture side-looking radar for surface mapping purposes.

*takes notes* Funny thing, that first one is actually somewhat similar to an idea I had. Probably a fairly universal concept, I'd guess.

Isn't Dances With Wolves just a remake of A Man Called Horse

I dunno, never heard of "A Man Called Horse".

[Simon_Jester]

Three-axis stellar navigation is a fairly obvious and basic way of handling travel on a starship. The idea of doing it that way predates modern computing- if you're not moving at exceptionally high speed (either STL to the point of relativistic effects being an issue, or FTL to the point of constellations changing rapidly being an issue), it remains possible to take accurate star sightings and calculate position and vector from them using technology not much more advanced than that required for stellar navigation on Earth.

Of course, good computer support will help tremendously with precision and reliability of your measurements, don't leave home without it... but if you really needed to and you could find a few convenient high-luminosity stars with well-known spectral profiles to start from, I suspect that you could find positions and plot courses in space using passive optical instruments, a slide rule, and a book of trig tables.

[Whiskey144]

Of course, good computer support will help tremendously with precision and reliability of your measurements, don't leave home without it... but if you really needed to and you could find a few convenient high-luminosity stars with well-known spectral profiles to start from, I suspect that you could find positions and plot courses in space using passive optical instruments, a slide rule, and a book of trig tables.

You have now given me an idea for a cool scene/story idea.

I have another question, but I think it would be more pertinent to make a new thread to deal with it, rather than post it in this thread.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm sorry. I know the term was an outdated term for Asians, seeing as I am also an Asian, and I know it's also an obsolete and incorrect term for Down's syndrome people, but I didn't know that it was a hateful slur with the kind of vitriol on the level of hate speech. In fact, my high school textbook actually used that term and the other -oid terms when it discussed ethnicities, which caused me some annoyance since I was one of the few Chinese people in the class, but I really didn't think much of it then. This is the first time that it's true offensiveness and hatefulness has been pointed out to me, and I apologize for using that word.

[Hillary]

Isn't Dances With Wolves just a remake of A Man Called Horse

I dunno, never heard of "A Man Called Horse".

Oh man, classic 1970 film - Richard Harris captured by a Native American tribe, initially an outcast he proves himself worthy of warrier status, marries one of the tribe, does all the initiation stuff and ultimately becomes their leader.

[jollyreaper]

I always kinda got the feeling it was the same levle of outrage you see when some SW fans talk about the Battle of Endor OMG THE EWOKS WON as if that is some major, significant detail in the grand scale of things (of course, since it usually is in the context of vs debates, it IS IMPORTANT because its a talking point, but I digress.)

It never bothered me as much as with some people but I object to the Ewoks winning so handily because it undercuts the danger presented by the Empire. If the Emperor's finest legions could be taken out by stone age teddy bears, why has the Alliance been having such a hard time against them? If they'd stuck with the original plan with the Wookies, it would have been like freakin' Zulu. The Wookies would still not have won on their own but would have tipped the balance with the addition of the Rebels doing their bit. Together, the Empire would be defeated.

Honestly, the chicken-walkers should have been dancing la Cucaracha all over the Ewok bodies, stompie to the left, stompie to the right.

Having the cute, cuddly, marketable teddy bears beat the Empire felt too much like the moichandizer in Lucas taking control. For me, the horror of Star Wars is the realization that something I loved so much as a child was just a vehicle for selling me shit. That wasn't a byproduct, it wasn't a case of an artist saying "Look, doing it for the love won't keep me in kibble; buy a ticket and a toy and you're supporting this like PBS." And the more moichandizing I see, the more Lucas crumbles in my eyes. That's the heart of my Star Wars disappointment. It's even harshing my enjoyment of the original trilogy.

[jollyreaper]

I'm sorry. I know the term was an outdated term for Asians, seeing as I am also an Asian, and I know it's also an obsolete and incorrect term for Down's syndrome people, but I didn't know that it was a hateful slur with the kind of vitriol on the level of hate speech. In fact, my high school textbook actually used that term and the other -oid terms when it discussed ethnicities, which caused me some annoyance since I was one of the few Chinese people in the class, but I really didn't think much of it then. This is the first time that it's true offensiveness and hatefulness has been pointed out to me, and I apologize for using that word.

Don't you get a pass in using the slur if you're in the minority? (Though technically speaking, Chinese are an absolute majority.)

[NecronLord]

Don't you get a pass in using the slur if you're in the minority? (Though technically speaking, Chinese are an absolute majority.)

He's not saying that he should.

[someone_else]

It is enormously naive to think that the RDA would refuse to do anything to people who don't fight back when they blew up the Hometree knowing full well that there'd were not just warriors there but most of the population, including children.

I hope you don't mean "RDA", but just the people RDA sent there. Otherwise Necronlord will have to bash on you too.

I am laughing, hard, oh so hard, at the idea that Venture Star has a loaded mass of ten kilotons. That's three Saturn V rockets. The thing is a click long, sail retracted. You're missing some zeroes there bud.

Ehm, it is made of truss and nanocarbon ropes. The lenght isn't a good indicator of its mass the same way you can't say a telephone pole weights as much as a truck just because they have the same lenght.

The payload is around 1000 tons or so (350 tons of cargo plus two landers of around the that mass plus the habitat module plus the 200 freezers for cryosleep). And the usage of antimatter and magic nanocarbon stuff + unobtanium tends to keep the overall mass down.

Project daedalus, able to deliver 450 tons (although not slowing down at arrival) was a two-stage vessel weighting 50'000 tons or so.

If that's your eyeballing, I suggest you see an optician.

Try to do something better, if you can. Otherwise shut up.

If your next post doesn't contain any evidence of unobtanium being critical (as the spice melange or oil) I'm going to lob asteroids in your direction.

I linked the sentences staing that above, from the article about the Venture Star.
I'll repeat them here.

"Only the great need for unobtanium and the energy which it allows human civilization to produce could justify the cost of creating these vessels."

"Unobtanium is not only the key to Earth’s energy needs in the 22nd century, but it is the enabler of interstellar travel and the establishment of a truly spacefaring civilization."

Anyway, I have good asteroid-deflection systems, in case you were wondering.

If the train network were that important, Earth would have turned Pandora into a colony protected by actual military forces and not left it to some private corporation to exploit.

There is enough evidence that Pandora's fighting capability was underestimated, and anyway without their Jesus Jake they wouldn'a have done a shit anyway.
Sending a real military was deemed unnecessary.

Also, what would stop Earth bigiwgs from grabbing the RDA's assets in case they get uppity? The RDA has nothing to prevent that other than the government's goodwill.

Uhm, maybe the fact that any government that does so violates bunches of laws and other corporations won't like it?
Or the fact that they can buy politicians.
They also have a laser with an output rated in hundreds of Petawatts, somwhere in the system.

Given that they can 3D print (called stereolithography, in Pandorapedia) aircraft of the same period on Pandora (The Sampson) it's a safe bet they can make the old style trains still.

There is a reason why they use maglev trains. Fast transport. Of people. Freight can go slower and none will care.

Unless a government decides otherwise. No corporation by its nature has "the balls of the world in its hands", since if they irritate the government enough the government will squash them.

My point was that they would convince the government somewhay to go there and clean up.
But yeah, there is no guarantee it will happen. It's just a possibility.

[jollyreaper]

Don't you get a pass in using the slur if you're in the minority? (Though technically speaking, Chinese are an absolute majority.)

He's not saying that he should.

I was making a joke. Like nobody else can say cracker! That's out word!

[Metahive]

"Unobtanium is not only the key to Earth’s energy needs in the 22nd century, but it is the enabler of interstellar travel and the establishment of a truly spacefaring civilization."

Spacefaring which's only purpose is to acquire more unobtanium. Also, good thing the first planet they randomly sent a spaceship to had this amazing stuff that enables a "true spacefaring civilisation", what are the odds .

In other words, BULLSHIT!

There is enough evidence that Pandora's fighting capability was underestimated, and anyway without their Jesus Jake they wouldn'a have done a shit anyway.
Sending a real military was deemed unnecessary.

Completely missing the point here. If unobtanium were a vital resource the nations of Earth would have written it on their own banners to acquire it, period. There would be neither desire nor need for a superfluous middle man.

Uhm, maybe the fact that any government that does so violates bunches of laws and other corporations won't like it?
Or the fact that they can buy politicians.
They also have a laser with an output rated in hundreds of Petawatts, somwhere in the system.

They're defending themselves from a corporation blatantly attempting threats and blackmail, that'd be entirely legit and the whole presence of the enormously costly Avatar program already tells us that the RDA's pull isn't as heavy as you make it out to be. As for that laser thingy, even if I grant you that the laser is solely controlled by the RDA (which I don't buy for a second), what help would that be? Committing any large destruction would just fuck the economy up and drag them down with it. They're not Blofeld's SPECTRE for fuck's sake, they're a Haliburton analogue! Causing chaos and mayhem at home is bad for business!

[NecronLord]

Ehm, it is made of truss and nanocarbon ropes. The lenght isn't a good indicator of its mass the same way you can't say a telephone pole weights as much as a truck just because they have the same lenght.

The payload is around 1000 tons or so (350 tons of cargo plus two landers of around the that mass plus the habitat module plus the 200 freezers for cryosleep). And the usage of antimatter and magic nanocarbon stuff + unobtanium tends to keep the overall mass down.

Unobtanium is not mass lightening, it may weigh nothing in certain circumstances, but it has mass.

I feel a picture reply may be required...


Saturn V is actually smaller than that, but I couldn't be bothered getting exact profile pictures.

You're talking about the non-structural mass on a space-ship that boasts a huge hammer head of antimatter containment vessels and radiators...

[Connor MacLeod]

Do we actually know WHY the unobtainium is important to spacefaring? It occurs to me that given its observed properties in the movie, the reason it may be crucial is that it provides a simple, easy and quite possibly safe method of generating some sort of internal, non-material containment for fuel and/or reactors, which could have lots of savings on mass (you dont need fancy machinery or anything to contain antimatter for example) or energy.

[NecronLord]

Do we actually know WHY the unobtainium is important to spacefaring? It occurs to me that given its observed properties in the movie, the reason it may be crucial is that it provides a simple, easy and quite possibly safe method of generating some sort of internal, non-material containment for fuel and/or reactors, which could have lots of savings on mass (you dont need fancy machinery or anything to contain antimatter for example) or energy.

It's somewhere on one of the blu-ray pandorapedias I believe; it allows for more efficient radiators (superconductor) and antimatter containment (superconductor-magnetics) don't quote me on that though.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's somewhere on one of the blu-ray pandorapedias I believe; it allows for more efficient radiators (superconductor) and antimatter containment (superconductor-magnetics) don't quote me on that though.

So basically its a very useful and effective shortcut in ship design that allows for tremendous savings on mass. Hell maybe it allows the sails to be more effective for all we know. I like that far better than mass lightening (perpetual motion ahoy!)

[someone_else]

forgot a reply to

(b) rounding up and killing any movement that big, even if they won't/can't fight back costs a lot of fucking money and military resources

This is the same for Pandora.

"Unobtanium is not only the key to Earth’s energy needs in the 22nd century, but it is the enabler of interstellar travel and the establishment of a truly spacefaring civilization."

Spacefaring which's only purpose is to acquire more unobtanium. Also, good thing the first planet they randomly sent a spaceship to had this amazing stuff that enables a "true spacefaring civilisation", what are the odds .

I bolded/italicized/underscored the important part now, so even people that have difficulties focusing can understand where to look.

Also I copy-paste the other statement with the same treatment. "Only the great need for unobtanium and the energy which it allows human civilization to produce could justify the cost of creating these vessels."

If unobtanium were a vital resource the nations of Earth would have written it on their own banners to acquire it, period. There would be neither desire nor need for a superfluous middle man.

Yeah, they did exactly that with oil, carbon and uranium.

They're defending themselves from a corporation blatantly attempting threats and blackmail

It's something that should be done in court. Not with the army.

Causing chaos and mayhem at home is bad for business!

Why are you assuming they have to open fire on Earth? It will be used to stop any kind of attack to their space assets. That given how big the laser is, are going to be significant.

You're talking about the non-structural mass on a space-ship that boasts a huge hammer head of antimatter containment vessels and radiators...

I keep thinking in terms of in-system spacecraft . Anyway, that means the laser must be 10-100 times more powerful than what I said.

Do we actually know WHY the unobtainium is important to spacefaring?

Superconductors allow the creation of magnetic nozzles, that allow you to work with plasma exhaust, necessary for any engine that has both high endurance and decent performance. The problem with current superconductors is that they ahve to be kept very cool to work, and since they also have to be relatively close to the plasma, they get heated up significantly by braking radiaton from it.
Heat rejection from a thing at room temp is *much* easier than rejecting heat from a thing that must be kept at around 50 kelvins, since it scales with the fourth power of the temperature.

For the same reason, it will be crucial in fusion generators on Earth, that have to deal with the same problems.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Also, what would stop Earth bigiwgs from grabbing the RDA's assets in case they get uppity? The RDA has nothing to prevent that other than the government's goodwill.

Uhm, maybe the fact that any government that does so violates bunches of laws and other corporations won't like it?
Or the fact that they can buy politicians.

If they start trying to play hardball with the government none of that matters. "Buying" politicians only gives you so much influence, especially when you start threatening them. And governments have access to literal armies of people who really don't care how much money you are waving around; they'll just shoot you right through that briefcase of money you are waving at them. Corporations are well aware of that, which is exactly why they don't try to bully governments the way you are suggesting.

They're defending themselves from a corporation blatantly attempting threats and blackmail

It's something that should be done in court. Not with the army.

No, if a corporation was dumb enough to make actual threats against the government they'd be stomped on by the military/cops, then there would be trials. Which is why corporations don't go around threatening the organizations that unlike them have standing armies.

Causing chaos and mayhem at home is bad for business!

Why are you assuming they have to open fire on Earth? It will be used to stop any kind of attack to their space assets. That given how big the laser is, are going to be significant.

There's no way they'd be allowed to have control of something like that without at the very least some sort of failsafe (such as remotely controlled nukes with deadman triggers built into the structure) the government felt was unbreakable. And more likely, there'd be government troops watching over the technicians operating the things; I expect that the techs will lose interest in using the laser as a weapon when some soldiers point guns at them

[jollyreaper]

Real life ha many examples of sup-optimal arrangements that are a legacy of politics and compromise. Would the US really leave important energ reserves in the hands of OPEC nations? We would invade! Except we didn't go to war earlier because of the ussr and when we finally did invade it didn't go so well.

This is the least problematic part of the backstory.

[Sarevok]

Room temperature superconductors are not worth the cost of shipping them across interstellar distances. You could barely justify going as far as the asteroids to mine them. There HAS to be some other magic property at work for the premise to be logical.