Alien mecha designs

[Zinegata]

You're not allowed to say it because it's false.

No, again, this is because "I say so!"

BTW, here's an article on Unicorn's author:

http://travel.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/in ... tyn.levart

Again, you can have complex storytelling and narratives. But also getting embraced by ultra-nationalist elements and dangerously drawing the line to apologia.

But hey, "Sieg Zeon!" and all that shit because it's cool.

I shouldn't have even bothered. You are impossible to actually engage with.

Yes, yes. More ad-hominem, and more dishonest shit from you: I quoted a very SPECIFIC point you made (Unicorn's Newtypes being a hope for the future). Which certainly hasn't been in Gundam for the past 30 years, and I elaborated in detail. You then ran away and pretended it doesn't matter, just like every time I went into detail on anything in this thread.

What I actually quoted:

That is the message of Unicorn: that there was a path forward into a better future: a path which the Federation tried to bury because it threatened their power, and which the Zeons lost sight of and misused.

No, you idiot. That's nothing new with Unicorn.

Zeon were driven crazy by ideology and waged a massive war of annihilation (One Year War). The Federation also went crazy with ideology eventually and started gassing people too (Gryps War). The idea that "both sides are bad!" has existed long before Unicorn. Portraying that "both sides are wrong!" and "driven by extremists" is nothing new.

The problem with Unicorn, again, is that the Laplace Document ultimately ends up being retroactive apologia. It talks about Newtypes nine years before Zeon is even born. It also (as you admit) presents them as some kind of shining hope to the future.

But that's actually NOT what's shown in the series; or at least in the early ones.

Newtypes were never meant to save anyone. In every Gundam show, Newtypes ultimately end up as weapons - pilots flying giant mecha to kill their fellow men. This has always been the case - from the original series all the way to Victory Gundam. Newtypes are just psychics who end up becoming soldiers who are used by both sides (and other extremist groups) as weapons.

This why there's a telling comment made by Amuro Ray in the original series - He tells the crew that "We will win this battle, my Newtype intuition predicts it!", and yet a few minutes later tells his close friends "I don't really believe I'm a Newtype, I'm just faking to make the crew feel good".

The whole "Newtype" thing was meant to be propaganda. It was supposed to give people false hope, with the lesson being that people should not believe in some kind of Deus Ex Machina that will save them (i.e. Newtypes will save us!), and that they should believe in their own power to change the world for the better. That is why the climax of the UC series involves soldiers from both sides working together to stop an asteroid drop (CCA).

Unicorn abandons that and goes to "Newtypes will save us!", without realizing that it's just another ideology that caused the whole mess in the first place. They won't. It has to be people working together and communicating honestly.

But again, given this isn't a discussion but just you being a shit-flinger, I'm not surprised.

[Ford Prefect]

BTW, here's an article on Unicorn's author:

I know who Fukui Harutoshi is, thank you. Character evidence isn't admissible in court, and my care-factor is zero. What matters is what is actually being said, not the man who is saying it, especially now that Unicorn has become the work of more than one person.

Yes, yes. More ad-hominem, and more dishonest shit from you: I quoted a very SPECIFIC point you made (Unicorn's Newtypes being a hope for the future). Which certainly hasn't been in Gundam for the past 30 years, and I elaborated in detail. You then ran away and pretended it doesn't matter, just like every time I went into detail on anything in this thread.

What you quoted does not exist in a vacuum. It's not a 'very SPECIFIC point', it's an idea connected to the earlier part of my post. Can you even breath and type at the same time?

[Zinegata]

What you quoted does not exist in a vacuum.

And note what I said about the rest of the post?

First of all: Those are seriously the theme of every UC show ever which I'm not even contesting.

But sure, keep on launching ad-homninems, and keep being an idiot by repeating shit that I have also repeatedly said that I am not contesting. Because apparently, in your world, I have to disagree with your whole post all of them time instead of very specific point.

BTW, don't think I haven't noticed that every time you do this, you suddenly stop talking about actual points of contention.

[Ford Prefect]

With how worked up you're getting I'm worried that your heart is on the verge of exploding. If you're not contesting the things I'm saying, why are you unable to examine the content of Laplace's Box using that knowledge? You are pretty much the living definition of 'held down by gravity'. Listen. The story spends a very large amount of time indicting Zeon. It goes into great detail about its intrinsic failings, the willingness to turn to violence, its unwillingness to move on from the One Year War, its willingness to buy into the games of exploitative, narcissistic leaders. You need to think about Laplace's Box in that context, otherwise you're simply not thinking at all.

[Stark]

He already said its useless trying to engage with you.

For me, the strongest theme of Unicorn is a self-actualising one. The people Banagher meets and their struggles and dreams reinforce this message - its wrong to follow authority. It's wrong to follow hate. It's wrong to follow your parents. What is right is to follow your heart, because it knows who you are. It isn't an external force making you a cog in a meaningless machine and forcing you to follow in bloody or foolish footsteps. The repeated message is stop. Turn away. Choose. Don't give your destiny away. This theme is a natural one for the setting and for me casts it in a new light - especially the horrific crimes of Zeon, which seem even worse.

[Ford Prefect]

This theme is a natural one for the setting and for me casts it in a new light - especially the horrific crimes of Zeon, which seem even worse.

I love the scene where Banagher and Marida are eating with the Sant family, and Banagher brings up Operation British and char's asteroid drop. Gilboa doesn't say anything, because he knows Banagher is right, but Marida takes him to that old church to try and explain why Gilboa is still fighting even if he knows that crimes have been committed in the name of that ideal. So Gilboa has chosen to keep believing, just like Zinnerman, which is what fuels Banagher's anger when Zinnerman gives in to the spectres of the past and goes along with the Torrington assault.

[Zinegata]

With how worked up you're getting I'm worried that your heart is on the verge of exploding.

Yes, yes. Keep up with the ad-hominems. It totally makes you look cool to whoever.

If you're not contesting the things I'm saying, why are you unable to examine the content of Laplace's Box using that knowledge? You are pretty much the living definition of 'held down by gravity'. Listen. The story spends a very large amount of time indicting Zeon. It goes into great detail about its intrinsic failings, the willingness to turn to violence, its unwillingness to move on from the One Year War, its willingness to buy into the games of exploitative, narcissistic leaders. You need to think about Laplace's Box in that context, otherwise you're simply not thinking at all.

Dude, for the last time:

The Laplace Box is NOT about Zeon vs Federation. For this subject I really don't care if the series indicts Zeon or the Federation. I really don't give a shit. Call yourself a Feddie. Scream Sieg Zeon. I don't care. If you enjoy the show because of it, more power to you.

The problem is this: The Laplace Box predates all of it. It's something that was sealed in UC 00. That was nine years before Zeon Deikun was even born!

You're telling me that I should look at the Laplace Box in the context of Federation vs Zeon. I'm telling you that you should realize that the Laplace Box existed before Federation vs Zeon.

And again: How much sense does it make? It talks about Newtypes nine years before Zeon was born!

That's why I keep saying it's a deliberate attempt at retroactive apologia.

======

Put it another way: If the Laplace box contained documents regarding the 0083 Gundam Project, or of Titan atrocities, or of some other Federation atrocities - any of which can be used to justify political changes and reform - then it'd actually make sense and be more or less fine.

But Fukui didn't do that. He went all the way to the beginning of the series and changed the premise - Newtypes ARE the shining hope of the future. They aren't just misused people who are made into pilots or political figureheads. Newtypes really are supermen who are going to save everyone; and by implication it justifies everyone who is fighting on their behalf (which isn't just Zeon)

By contrast, the old series actually repudiates the idea that Newtypes will change everything. Instead, people have to work together and put aside their differences. In CCA Newtype power facilitates stopping the big asteroid, but it was ultimately the will of everyone involved - Feddie and Zeon - that fixes it.

[Zinegata]

He already said its useless trying to engage with you.

Yes, yes, more ad-hominem shit. You love this shit don't you, lording it all over the peons?

What is right is to follow your heart, because it knows who you are. It isn't an external force making you a cog in a meaningless machine and forcing you to follow in bloody or foolish footsteps. The repeated message is stop. Turn away. Choose. Don't give your destiny away.

Good God, now I get it.

You two idiots think I am saying the series sucks because I point out it may have apologia elements.

Idiots.

[Darth Tedious]

Okay dude, I think I have a way to explain what Stark is getting at here.

If, in 1900, the whole world signed a document saying "Jews are bad, mmmkay?", it wouldn't excuse or apologise for the Holocaust.
It would mean the whole world was fucking wrong.

[Ford Prefect]

That's why I keep saying it's a deliberate attempt at retroactive apologia.

You keep saying this, but it's just meaningless. Even if we took your interpretation prima facie, and that Laplace's Box does in fact justify any act done in the name of Newtypes, then it would still actually be a further indictment of Zeon, not apologia. Regardless of why it was founded, Zeon didn't actually fight for Newtypes. That's something which is stressed in Unicorn.

[Zinegata]

If, in 1900, the whole world signed a document saying "Jews are bad, mmmkay?", it wouldn't excuse or apologise for the Holocaust.
It would mean the whole world was fucking wrong.

Again, "all the world is wrong" is a constant theme in Gundam, which isn't bad.

But the problem is that the world didn't sign such a document in 1900. So anyone who was a jerk to Jews was wrong, not the whole world.

And if you tried to write an alternate history fic with the above premise (everyone plotted to kill the Jews!), wouldn't that in effect be just Nazi fantasy? And again, given Harutoshi's leanings, shouldn't that give everyone a big warning flag on his intent?

Personally though, I'm beginning to think that this is really boiling down to fanboyish denial. Whether or not a viewer sees the Japan nationalist undertones isn't relevant to enjoying the series, but we have to go through all of these pages of shouting because they think I'm saying it sucks because of it.

Even if we took your interpretation prima facie, and that Laplace's Box does in fact justify any act done in the name of Newtypes, then it would still actually be a further indictment of Zeon, not apologia.

Except as you said yourself: Laplace was billed as a "better path", which both the Federation and Zeon tried to deny (paraphrase of your earlier statement).

And if Newtypes represent a better path, doesn't it justify committing whatever act to ensure their rise? That's what drove Scirocco for instance.

So your interpretation is not exactly consistent here; and honestly seems to be gymnastics just to pretend that Harutoshi didn't deliberately go out on a stretch just to say "Newtypes will save us!" even before the concept even existed.

Again, there was no need plot-wise to go back all the way to UC 00 and rewrite the premise of the whole series. If he wanted some ticking time bomb to use on the Federation, he had a ton of other material that he could use.

[Darth Tedious]

Again, "all the world is wrong" is a constant theme in Gundam, which isn't bad.

But the problem is that the world didn't sign such a document in 1900. So anyone who was a jerk to Jews was wrong, not the whole world.

Apparently in Gundams, everyone DID sign an equivalent document (I say apparently because I've never seen a single fucking episode of any Gundam series).

Personally though, I'm beginning to think that this is really boiling down to fanboyish denial. Whether or not a viewer sees the Japan nationalist undertones isn't relevant to enjoying the series, but we have to go through all of these pages of shouting because they think I'm saying it sucks because of it.

I've never seen a single fucking episode of any Gundam series

So calling me a fanboy in denial is a bit off-base.

But I managed to pick up on what Stark and Ford are saying based on your own analogy (which you now discount as a false analogy ).

[Zinegata]

Apparently in Gundams, everyone DID sign an equivalent document (I say apparently because I've never seen a single fucking episode of any Gundam series), which brings me to:

This document literally didn't exist until Harutoshi started writing for Gundam. Hence the "retroactive" part.

So calling me a fanboy in denial is a bit off-base.

Sorry I wasn't referring to you.

But I managed to pick up on what Stark and Ford are saying based on your own analogy (which you now discount as a false analogy ).

See above regarding how the document literally didn't exist until Mr. Japan's Tom Clancy came along.

[Stark]

People dispute you because you're stating your view as some kind of authoritative fact, and unfortunately poisoning the well for everyone who listens to you. I can only repeat that before anyone take your narrow view of Gundam or Gundam Unicorn to heart, that they keep their minds open to the actual works themselves. The entire rest of the work remains even if we put aside your blinkers, and its a powerful work with positive and effective themes. Not only do I think you're totally wrong in your one-note analysis, but its a shame that you can't engage with the rest of the what you see.

For context, I'll throw out a montage of the self-actualising and pacifist message at the heart of Unicorn as a kind of 'reality check' for people who just see Zinegata yelling at people.

[Darth Tedious]

Retcons are retcons, you can accept them (as you did with the M-particle science-y stuff) or reject them (as you do in this case).

I fail to see why Stark and Ford are wrongly interpreting the show's message by accepting this retcon. Stark even explained earlier that he pretty much thinks of each series as almost its own entity.

BTW, this whole discussion is seriously making me want to go and watch Gundams...

[Zinegata]

The entire rest of the work remains even if we put aside your blinkers, and its a powerful work with positive and effective themes.

... And when did I say Unicorn was bad again? Oh yes, I didn't. Heck, I even said I agreed with the themes.

Thank you for launching even more ad-hominems in your supposed public service announcement, because you don't want to admit that for all of Unicorn's good spots, it does have the undertones I mentioned.

[Zinegata]

Retcons are retcons, you can accept them (as you did with the M-particle science-y stuff) or reject them (as you do in this case).

I fail to see why Stark and Ford are wrongly interpreting the show's message by accepting this retcon. Stark even explained earlier that he pretty much thinks of each series as almost its own entity.

It's not that I'm questioning their acceptance of the retcon, I accept it too.

I'm questioning their denial of its Japan apologia undertones. Again, it's basically Japan's Tom Clancy deciding to change the universe in a fundamental way - which is "everything done in the name of Newtypes is now justified!". He didn't have to, but he did.

Why I'm tiring of the discussion is because they somehow think my argument invalidates their own enjoyment of the series - because Unicorn (and most Gundam shows) DO have a more indepth look into the nature of good/evil.

Like I said, I don't deny it has those themes too plus complex storytelling. But if you're saying that it's not getting undertones of Japanese ultranationalist themes then that's where we have an argument.

BTW, this whole discussion is seriously making me want to go and watch Gundams...

You just made my day

[Stark]

I actually think the 'retcon' (which is a poor word, since to my knowledge it doesn't change anything, rather adds background) strengthens the common themes of the shows, in that it enhances the tragedy of all the authoritarianism, the violence, the billions of deaths, the lies and machinations of leaders and governments. The show that features it also has some fantastic character drama, where the box itself (and its contents) are basically totally irrelevant and simply serve to drive a drama that brings the different threads of 30 years of Gundam together and emphatically states 'this is wrong, they were wrong, we are wrong, and fighting over who was right is self-defeating'.

Turns out the story is actually about people and not made-up historical revisionism.



Actually, Zinegata, it doesn't matter if you say its bad or not. All that matters is that you're saying narrow and probably wrong things that people with no other reference might take away as fact, and that's a sad thing. That nobody is interested in 'proving' you 'wrong' about something so subjective when you'll just stick your fingers in your ears hardly supports your position, and it's pretty sad that you think it does. The best part is that you honestly think you're informed or helpful or both. :v

[Zinegata]

I actually think the 'retcon' (which is a poor word, since to my knowledge it doesn't change anything, rather adds background) strengthens the common themes of the shows, in that it enhances the tragedy of all the authoritarianism, the violence, the billions of deaths, the lies and machinations of leaders and governments. The show that features it also has some fantastic character drama, where the box itself (and its contents) are basically totally irrelevant and simply serve to drive a drama that brings the different threads of 30 years of Gundam together and emphatically states 'this is wrong, they were wrong, we are wrong, and fighting over who was right is self-defeating'.

And you know what? That's a totally cool way of interpreting it.

God help me from the Zeon fanboy crazies though

Actually, Zinegata, it doesn't matter if you say its bad or not. All that matters is that you're saying narrow and probably wrong things that people with no other reference might take away as fact, and that's a sad thing.

Okay, narrow things I will admit to (Yeah, it's a show about people). Point taken there.

[Ford Prefect]

Except as you said yourself: Laplace was billed as a "better path", which both the Federation and Zeon tried to deny (paraphrase of your earlier statement).

And if Newtypes represent a better path, doesn't it justify committing whatever act to ensure their rise? That's what drove Scirocco for instance.

So your interpretation is not exactly consistent here; and honestly seems to be gymnastics just to pretend that Harutoshi didn't deliberately go out on a stretch just to say "Newtypes will save us!" even before the concept even existed.

Dude if you're going to accept the premise that both the Federation and Zeon were wrong, then who is Laplace's Box apologia for? I mean you mention The Man From Jupiter, but do you really think that's what Laplace's Box is doing? Justifying Paptimus Scirocco? The reality is that the story is about the Federation and Zeon. Laplace's Box, as an idea, applies to their conflict and is simply a capstone on ideas that have persisted for years and years regarding the Federation and Zeon.

The idea that Laplace's Box justifies any degree of violence is, quite frankly, absurd. I mean blah blah blah Fukui is a notorious right wing author (I'd heard of him long before Unicorn was a thing), but that doesn't mean that literally everything that he writes is part of some revisionist agenda. As he mentioned in an interview, one of the things he was really conscious of when writing the novels was that he was working within a well-established franchise.

e: when I say 'better path' I mean 'not going to war', which is what Laplace's Box is really about.

[Stark]

Its cool. Its a pretty common thing to hear (especially about IGLOO and Stardust Memory) but I think its pretty clear that those works raise the issue of xyz being right or good in order to show that it isn't at all. In Stardust Memory, Delaz is both a father figure and inspirational leader with strong faith and care for his men AND a fanatical hard-liner mass murderer who cares only for his BELIEF IN FINAL VICTORY SIEG ZEON. He's possibly a sympathetic figure, but also a twisted and evil one, which is probably where people can come away with the idea that the series in some way supports his tragic plot.

And TBH concerning Laplace's box etc, I think it is simply about the kind of 'spiritual shoal zone' the Federation was stuck in after the OYW - a place where they were so driven by fear and hate after the unprecedented war they destroyed their own government while allowing the Zeon remnants to continue their uprisings, and thus trap humanity in an endless cycle of violence instead of following the vision. Stardust Memory is all about how the faithless and morally bankrupt Federation lacks the clear vision and driving ideology of the Zeon, and how both these systems are fundamentally wrong.

[Zinegata]

Box apologia for? I mean you mention The Man From Jupiter, but do you really think that's what Laplace's Box is doing? Justifying Paptimus Scirocco?

The point of the previous series is that everyone uses Newtypes - as weapons, political figures, etc - and that this was justified because of ideology. Scirocco believed he was ushering in a new "Queen" that would bring unity. Degwin believed he was fulfilling the will of Zeon. And so on and so forth.

But what makes Laplace unique is that it was an actual signed treaty. In every other case you can dismiss people as being just a bunch of self-serving hooligans with their own agenda, but thanks to Laplace by law the leaders of the world actually agreed that Newtypes should usher a massive political change gives considerably more legitimacy to the notion that "Newtypes are the future!"

Which is again why I question why Fukui went this far. There are plenty of other Federation atrocities and secrets he could have used to blackmail the Federation into collapsing. Instead he went all the way to the very start of the Universal Century and made it a binding law.

And again, I'm not saying this overturns any of the other themes in the show. And that ultimately if you choose to ignore the law (like some characters do) then you're actually kosher.

Stark's right though - this is a really narrow point we're threading. Sorry.

[Ford Prefect]

I see where you're coming from, but the actual content of Laplace's Box is:
Spoiler

If Newtypes emerge, then they should be allowed to have independence peacefully.

Some people have taken to reading this very far, but all it says to me is that we shouldn't fight over this thing. It's not an imperative to use Newtypes in any way at all; it's quite the opposite, really.

[Zinegata]

Its cool. Its a pretty common thing to hear (especially about IGLOO and Stardust Memory) but I think its pretty clear that those works raise the issue of xyz being right or good in order to show that it isn't at all. In Stardust Memory, Delaz is both a father figure and inspirational leader with strong faith and care for his men AND a fanatical hard-liner mass murderer who cares only for his BELIEF IN FINAL VICTORY SIEG ZEON. He's possibly a sympathetic figure, but also a twisted and evil one, which is probably where people can come away with the idea that the series in some way supports his tragic plot.

...

Stardust Memory is all about how the faithless and morally bankrupt Federation lacks the clear vision and driving ideology of the Zeon, and how both these systems are fundamentally wrong.

I think part of the "problem" with Stardust Memory is that the central concept of the series wasn't very well defined and the execution suffered. For you, it was about how both the Federation and Zeon had fundamentally wrong systems. For me, it was actually a cautionary tale of how easily one can ride the slippery slope down to evil. In the beginning, the Federation is generally labelled as the "Good guys" trying to stop a terrorist with a nuke. Yet very quickly the tables turn and it's shown that the Federation isn't above doing its own unsavory backroom deals. And by the end, most of these characters end up working for the Titans - who are a brutal organization who commit plenty of war crimes themselves.

Which is why I really think that 08th MS remains the series that best encapsulates the Federation vs Zeon conflict. Both sides are lead by assholes, but that does not change the underlying humanity of the soldiers who fight for them.

[Zinegata]

I see where you're coming from, but the actual content of Laplace's Box is:
Spoiler

If Newtypes emerge, then they should be allowed to have independence peacefully.

Some people have taken to reading this very far, but all it says to me is that we shouldn't fight over this thing. It's not an imperative to use Newtypes in any way at all; it's quite the opposite, really.

Sorry, I missed your earlier edit about the "peaceful" bit. Yes I'm aware of that bit.

Having a peaceful transition as a matter of law doesn't help very much if the law isn't enforced. And that lack of enforcement just gives a legal casus belli to actually engage in military action.

This is actually exactly what happens to Zeon. Zeon Deikun (according to most accounts) wanted a peaceful transition of power from the Federation to the colonies. He succeeded in Side 3 but failed to make headway elsewhere.

As a result, he was assassinated by the Zabis, who then began to try to enforce his vision by force.

Before, you can dismiss the Zabi's actions as little more than their own power grab. Now, they're just enforcing their legal rights.

Which is again why I question Fuiki adding it as canon from UC 00. It means that it now affects all the UC shows, and that everyone from Scirocco to their mom can now retroactively be claimed as just "enforcing our rightful claim to independence via the Laplace treaty".

In-universe, at least, we know it doesn't have that far-reaching effect (they haven't retconned F91 onwards yet). But from the context of a long-time viewer, that's not a comforting direction of how the series should proceed. It's a drawing of the lines that shouldn't have been drawn, especially since other plot points could have been used to blackmail the Federation.

====

On a side note, this reminds me very much of the "Pacifism" angle of Gundam Wing, a world wherein Pacificism does eventually become the law.

But the great thing about Wing (especially the follow-up OVAs) is that it doesn't show pacifism as easy or natural. It doesn't show the transition to peace as instant. And that people still have to work to make it happen.