For those who feel nuGalactica failed...

[jollyreaper]

Well, I see unsubscribe beneath the new topic button. But so long as you figured it out, I guess you won't see this!

[Themightytom]

Well, I see unsubscribe beneath the new topic button. But so long as you figured it out, I guess you won't see this!

I never subscribed

[Bob the Gunslinger]

" Our show is first and foremost a drama. It is about people. Real people that the audience can identify with and become engaged in. "

I guess I'm not a real person, but I had trouble identifying or becoming engaged with any of the characters on this show. I've not had to be too careful to avoid inviting drunks, psychopaths and other highly dysfunctional people into my life, so life on board Galactica came across as highly unrealistic. I wouldn't expect to see so much pointless "drama" among the employees in a retail store let alone among a highly-trained military crew.

[Havok]

Yeah I know right. Especially under all those completely normal and everyday circumstances.

[Batman]

The problem with the nBSG characters wasn't that they ended up highly dysfunctional. They started out as such.

[Stark]

That'd be fine if they had arcs that said something about something, rather than AND NOW HE HITS HIS WIFE TOO! EDGY!

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Yeah, I'm OK with dysfunctional when it seems like it means something or the character is going somewhere, but that wasn't the case on nBSG. They weren't even consistent with the characters' flaws. "In this episode, we need the pilot to be a drug addicted control freak with a gambling problem."

[Darth Lucifer]

I kind of wish Starbuck flew away in her shiny new Viper they never explained. I never liked her sudden disappearing act.

[Scrib]

God, Bob, you're reminding me of the infamous Space Cop. I'm only a few episodes away from it, it'll be fun.

I just finished the Pegasus arc and I can't help but feel that they should have kept Cain around a bit longer, they definitely sped through what could have been an interesting conflict.

As for Starbuck...just..ugh. At the end everything was basically fiat. You find Earth because fiat, you risk the last weapon you have to save some hybrid child because fiat, you disappear...because we said so. Starbuck was involved in almost all of the big ones.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Well it wasn't the LAST weapon, that would be the Baseship. But still, using Galactica as a giant battering ram...

[Stark]

Just like in Macross decades ago - pretty fresh. :v

Even fiat would have been fine if it worked. If those elements and themes were powerful and really had something to say, you could ignore the bad plotting and still enjoy the actual writing. But it wasn't - indeed many of the dramatic peaks in the show were almost childish in how badly they were executed.

[FaxModem1]

I rather liked the setup of the music being numbers setting the final jump home, as it was cleverly done, as was seeing the old Centurions fighting the new ones with the Cylons and Humans working together on a singular goal. But after that, it just went so off the rails that I literally started screaming at the screen about how stupid the characters were for their decisions on Earth.

I think the whole of the New Caprica arc was a good experiment, as it was them trying something new, but it was a failure, as they didn't know what they were doing, and weren't planning things out.

A daring move would have been to have Starbuck actually die in that gas giant or whatever, but she seemed to be too much of a darling to the writing team.

[jollyreaper]

I never got into Lost but I saw a clip from the pilot. Plane is crashed but the but the big chunks are intact enough to be recognizable. When an aircraft breaks up in midair, that's not going to happen. Small pieces, no survivors. But the crash looked cool, right? Great effects. Be calm, be calm. Ok, engine is detached from the aircraft and fuel and still runs. Ok, be calm. Someone sucked into it and it explodes. Ok, I can't do it.

I know why all this happened, writer thought it would look cool, production team agreed, that is that. The fact that it couldn't possibly happen is the least important thing in the world. Why are you letting it bother you? It's just a show. Why can't you just enjoy the hard work all these talented people put into it? Why are you such a hater?

This is really the defining characteristic of modern shows, isn't it? I mean we are used to dodgy science in scifi and Hollywood physics since Hollywood began but it's become to the point where not even character arcs have any internal coherence. And most of the audience see that sort of thing as nerd nitpicking rather than actual, serious problems. It's just a show, it doesn't have to make sense. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Wow.

[DaveJB]

A lot of that's down to the very nature of television production. Unlike other forms of media where there's usually one primary author able to do his or her job with only a few sources of interference, television is one of the biggest creative clusterfucks (in fact, with the arguable exception of videogaming, probably THE biggest) imaginable. Even on a show that's running smoothly you're going to have a showrunner and a bunch of other writers all with slightly differing ideas on how to execute the overall storyline, plus some degree of interference from the networks, and the fact that the viewing audience simply aren't going to like everything you do. Add in additional factors like high writer turnover, occasional input from freelancers, more belligerent network execs, and even showrunners being replaced, (plus some of the writers inevitably being talentless idiots, natch) and you can see why character arcs tend to be so inconsistent.

Granted, that sort of creative environment has been around since basically forever in television, but until about twenty years ago shows generally consisted of standalone episodes without much in the way of story or character arcs (and when they did have them you'd only see maybe a half-dozen episodes across an entire show's run dedicated to it), and it tended to be less destructive to a show back then.

On a similar note, for all the criticisms I've seen aimed at RDM (and before him, Chris Carter) for not going into the series with a detailed five-year plan that has every story and character arc intricately mapped out, the sad truth is that no television writer is ever likely to do something like that, because the other factors I mentioned are inevitably going to make it a waste of time.

[Stark]

Complaining about something being 'unrealistic' (ps Lost was a fantasy show) is totally different from discussing the success or otherwise of it's attempts to sell drama or have a coherent plot. Lost shares many problems with nBSG (like making shit up as they go along and listening to fans) but not being an accurate representation of a plane crash in a fantasy show about space force field conspiracy flashbacks is not one of them.

And this is really not a universal problem at all. I've been talking to Connor lately about how it seems to be very much Western (and American syndicated) issue. Being coherent isn't a false dilemma between 'map it all out decades in advance' and 'make up any old crazy bullshit as you go along and the forums like xyz character'. You can indeed have a long running show or franchise that maintains a consistent tone and largely consistent narrative and theme. I just don't think the way Americans make shows for syndication leans toward that, and probably doesn't actually care about it at all. Why respect the setting or work or other writers when you can make your one episode about anything and nobody will care?

[JLTucker]

I never got into Lost but I saw a clip from the pilot. Plane is crashed but the but the big chunks are intact enough to be recognizable. When an aircraft breaks up in midair, that's not going to happen. Small pieces, no survivors. But the crash looked cool, right? Great effects. Be calm, be calm. Ok, engine is detached from the aircraft and fuel and still runs. Ok, be calm. Someone sucked into it and it explodes. Ok, I can't do it.

I know why all this happened, writer thought it would look cool, production team agreed, that is that. The fact that it couldn't possibly happen is the least important thing in the world. Why are you letting it bother you? It's just a show. Why can't you just enjoy the hard work all these talented people put into it? Why are you such a hater?

This is really the defining characteristic of modern shows, isn't it? I mean we are used to dodgy science in scifi and Hollywood physics since Hollywood began but it's become to the point where not even character arcs have any internal coherence. And most of the audience see that sort of thing as nerd nitpicking rather than actual, serious problems. It's just a show, it doesn't have to make sense. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Wow.

If the plane crash in Lost bothered you, then you missed the point of the show. If the creators intended it to be accurate, you'd have a point. But as it is, you don't. The crash isn't a serous problem except to those who miss the overall picture. Lost isn't about the accuracy of the plane crash or any of its other fantasy elements. It is about how lost the characters are to themselves in regards to their past and what's happening in the present. They don't learn from their mistakes. They keep repeating them. In that regard, realism is there because people like Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Charlie exist everywhere. The idea that disregarding the accuracy of the plane crash is somehow a detriment to the quality of Hollywood and its viewers is an odd one if it was never meant to be accurate in the first place. Not only that, but i's incredibly condescending and insulting to those who care more about how writers present other ideas rather than a CGI spectacle.

Anyone who seriously enjoys discussing film and television shows won't use the "if you don't like it, don't watch it" argument. That implies that they are so insecure with their own opinions that they need them validated. Stay away from them. You can't have a decent discussion with them.

[jollyreaper]

The Shield was not mapped out. It was written season to season. They did stick with the central theme of good cops going bad. Because of this, everything felt like it held together. Callbacks to earlier events provided a sense of consequence even though the writers had no idea what would be happening.

Real life is unscripted, naturally, and things can happen that defy belief. But the real life stories we tell are because they are worth repeating. And the tale of a cop's Greek tragedy fall is a good story. You watch someone like this in real life, you wonder if he will get away with it. When things are falling apart, you have no idea how he will meet his end. Maybe he dies in an unrelated car accident, maybe he gets away with it, maybe he is busted and jailed due to his actions. Maybe he gets busted for the one crime he didn't commit. A show fails when it forgets its own themes.

I do agree with TV being a difficult medium to work in. As the wag said, it's called a medium because it is neither rare nor well-done.

[jollyreaper]

As for the argument about accuracy, this is just going to be a matter of taste. Take a Stephen King scenario like the Mist. Dimensional tears aren't real. Those monsters are made up. I'm sure chemists as biologists would have problems with the alien physiology and behavior and the like. Acid webs? Bipedal lobsters with exoskeletons? The shambling mountain? Yeah. Those are the fantasy elements, though more painted like scifi. I'm cool with that.

Where it would break down for me is if they survived for two months in this condition with no mention of food or if the gun they had never ran out of bullets or they were able to pump gas at a station that clearly has no power or they stuck in a tech geek character who was able to use a screwdriver and tinfoil to retrofit their cell phones into short-range walkie-talkies. See, the monsters are the fantastic element. This other stuff is the mundane that the fantastic is meant to clash with.

I guess it doesn't bother other people but the story has to be really good to get me over those bumps. With bad stories I end up nothing these mistakes all the more.

The takeaway is that many people really don't care. Is bud bad beer? It is a best-seller so that really doesn't matter, now does it? NCIS is among the top-rated shows on TV. I can't understand the appeal but that doesn't stop them from making money. Since I typically can't stand the genre, it's no loss to me.

[Scrib]

I am curious about why LOST gets much less shit than BSG though. If the BSG writers had kept the characters consistent and the ending less WTF they probably could have gotten away just like the LOST writers did. But when you go so wtf that you out-do the show with a magical island and a smoke monster that was was famous for it's mysteries you are in trouble.

Sure, LOST was bad about mysteries, but in the end everything seemed to fit together in a loose way. You didn't always know why things were the way they were and you certainly weren't going to get into mechanics, anymore than you would ever find out why Harry Potter's blood somehow made him able to kill Voldemort but I never looked back at the end and went:"That was batshit insane and explained nothing and went against what we know of EVERYONE on the show" . The two shows seem like they should have better endings, it's just that one side was better at juggling shit than the other.

Anyone who seriously enjoys discussing film and television shows won't use the "if you don't like it, don't watch it" argument. That implies that they are so insecure with their own opinions that they need them validated. Stay away from them. You can't have a decent discussion with them.

This needs to be stamped on the front page of every single media forum ever.

[JLTucker]

I am curious about why LOST gets much less shit than BSG though. If the BSG writers had kept the characters consistent and the ending less WTF they probably could have gotten away just like the LOST writers did. But when you go so wtf that you out-do the show with a magical island and a smoke monster that was was famous for it's mysteries you are in trouble.

Sure, LOST was bad about mysteries, but in the end everything seemed to fit together in a loose way. You didn't always know why things were the way they were and you certainly weren't going to get into mechanics, anymore than you would ever find out why Harry Potter's blood somehow made him able to kill Voldemort but I never looked back at the end and went:"That was batshit insane and explained nothing and went against what we know of EVERYONE on the show" . The two shows seem like they should have better endings, it's just that one side was better at juggling shit than the other.

The ending literally ruined the entire series for heaps of people. They felt cheated. I've not been able to discuss the show with many people without someone mentioning the ending. Even though it fit the show thematically (the theme of being lost and finding yourself), people still hated it because it didn't do what they wanted and didn't explain everything. in fact, in my opinion, when the show tried to explain things, it was bad. Remember the electromagnetism stuff? It's horrible to watch. It's more satisfying to see the time travel bits that symbolize that the couples on the show have been separated by the concept of time: Juliette and Sawyer, Desmond and Penny, and Jin and Sun. When they finally get together through all of their trial and tribulations, it's emotionally gratifying. Nah. Let's just focus on the plane crash, polar bear, and island mysteries. I want answers!

One of the positives of having immense experiences with television is that you always anticipate and likely know that everything will not be planned out completely. Why? Writers like to placate fans instead of doing what they want with their property. Do you remember how fans of The Sopranos loved Tony and turned on him in the final season? The writers cared not about pleasing the fans and wanted to do what they envisioned for the characters. Tony finally descends into sociopathy and comes to the realization that he's evil and destined for hell. He learned more in one day than years of therapy. That's his final arc. That's not placating fans, that's caring for your own universe.

[Scrib]

Really? I never found it to be as bad as BSG, at least in terms of the fan response or the character actions or hell, even the internal plot. (And I thought the thing about the polar bears was answered?)

Though I will say that the pleasing people thing is the big problem with Network TV. Everything is formulaic and light precisely not to piss people off too much. Most the conflict (except perhaps the romantic tension, which is an area where the writers feel they can drag the issue on forever)is academic, 90% of the time there's a victory. The 10% where something goes wrong it's to make it seem like that's a possibility every time. This is less of a problem in some dramas and the like but a lot of the procedural shows represent the bad end of the spectrum.

Also,just curious: when do you think did Tony "crossed the line". I can't remember there being any big moment, as far as I was concerned he -and everyone in the sphere- was evil for a long time before the final season. I thought that we were to take that for granted.

[JLTucker]

Also,just curious: when do you think did Tony "crossed the line". I can't remember there being any big moment, as far as I was concerned he -and everyone in the sphere- was evil for a long time before the final season. I thought that we were to take that for granted.

He was evil since the first episode. He crossed the line by being in the mafia. I rec all reading a lot of posts wanting him to die after he murdered
Spoiler

Christopher

I too thought that at the time and you can search the forum to see.

[Havok]

Yeah being the murdering crime boss of a gang already puts you miles over the line. That people don't get that is idiotic. That said, I was glad and relieved when he killed Christopher. He fucking deserved it.

Part of getting invested in that show was learning and understanding how the internal rules of the mob worked. He consistently broke them and put his family in more danger than they needed to be in given their already dangerous circumstances. That and his real family too, which was what prompted Tony to kill him. Basically it came down to how long before Chris killed his own kid.

[Stark]

I agree. It's far more important with a show that the things happen for reasons that make sense or have meaning within the story. When you try to focus on external reasons like 'realism' or 'what the forums like', that generally hurts the artistic vision. I asked Tucker this the other day (and it's come up a lot with Connor) but I'm not sure 'we did xyz because fan pressure' ever made something better... At least not in the immediate forum reaction negative tweets way. Feedback is faster now and this can make it harder for creators to create what they want before they hear what people think of it.

[Havok]

Everything is better without fan input. The reason they are fans in the first place is because they like what you did before they even knew XYZ existed. Ignore fans, that's my motto.