Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[SirNitram]

'A Minbari cruiser has a maximum endurance of 2 MT. The Earthforce small nukes are 2MT. I don't see why they wouldn't use 500MT warheads against the Minbari...'

This is a good example of why you're a bad debator: You're not thinking. Do you use a sledgehammer to kill a fly? A thermonuclear bomb to kill one soldier?

[brianeyci]

The nebula trick was operational or strategic in application not tactical, if you don't know the difference we shouldn't have this discussion......

It wasn't a trick. Two trillion drones were in that nebula, the entire upper limit of the Federation. Fine, it is operational and strategic in nature, not tactical, that was moronic of me.

Ok how many of the ST opponants for the borg fight them on their own home turf while they fight on the front lines? and can you garuntee that the borg will tie up the whole vorlon and or the whole shadow fleet?.

The race with the Quantum Slipstream drive had an unprecedented advantage over the Borg that allowed them to survive for hundreds of years. The drive allowed them to enter Borg space in seconds. Don't tell me they wouldn't have taken advantage of that to pull off hit and run tactics against the Borg. And no, there are no guarantees. You're claiming already that the Vorlons and Shadows would go on some holy crusade to exterminate the Borg. I don't see why they have to do that to accomplish their goal of protecting the YR.

We don't know if transporters will even work against the YR ships or planets, mainly they are so big on EM signature that you might not be able to transport (reference all the times transport has failed....)

I have claimed that transporters would be able to help in assimilation of planets. You can't throw out transporters because of a few or many incidents that transporters don't work, because there are many incidents where transporters do work. Transporter technology is totally alien to the YR, and without specific countermeasures to prevent transport or dense armor or Trek-style transporter scramblers/shields, chances are transporters will work. How big is the EM signature, and how big of an EM signature do you need to stop a transporter?

OKALA
Commander, something's wrong.
They're not responding, and
sensors show unusual EM signatures
along their hull.

<snip>

6 INT. RUNABOUT (OPTICAL)

Worf, BASHIR, and an N.D. Security Guard MATERIALIZE.
Worf and the Guard have their phasers out, ready for
anything. Bashir has a Medkit and rushes over to
Sisko, who is slumped unconscious in his seat. Dax,
Garak and Odo are also unconscious. Worf makes a
motion and the Guard EXITS to check out the aft part of
the runabout as Bashir begins scanning Sisko.

So we know that transporters CAN transport through EM signatures. We don't know how much, there are many variables we don't know, but that doesn't mean we can suppose that transporters won't work unless there is specific evidence otherwise.

The nuclear warheads were certainly deployed on all earthforce ships but mounted on guided missiles that couldn't track a mimbari warship due to ECM (the reason the whole earth mimbari war started as well....) for all we know this is still the case and it was only because JS decided to use them as COMMAND detonated mines that they succeeded.

Starfuries were using suicide tactics regularly during the Minbari war. Don't tell me they couldn't have strapped nuclear missiles underneath the Starfuries and went on suicide runs. Sheridan never mentioned transferring nuclear warheads from missiles, I believe he asked for the number of mines on the ship IIRC. And we don't see Earthforce use nuclear missiles against each other when they are not fighting Minbari. Remember, a Sharlin warcruiser can take 2 megatons, other YR hulls would be paper compared to Sharlins.

Most of the ambushes were unplanned requiring the resources (ie. nukes) be on hand.

Prove to me that the OR wont just keep atackng the borg and use a small unit to hunt down stragglers before removing the borg from the B5 universe.

You keep asking for proof of situations where I don't dispute. OR could keep hunting down the Borg for all eternity, but where is the proof that they are so adamant about going on a holy crusade against the Borg? We know what their roles are, guardians. Why should they give a flying fuck about the Borg if they are able to close the wormhole and stop the Borg from invading, or crush the Borg so badly that they are never able to threaten the YR again? The Shadows might even LIKE the Borg. The Shadows believe in conflict as a way of promoting advancement, and may leave the Borg alive because they believe in conflict and not annihilating all the players.

Prove that the borg will be able to access the worlds successfully they need to assimilate the population and that the OR wont simply vape them too. After all the OR know the history of earth as well or better than we do and know what Scipius Africanus' response would be

I don't know what you are trying to get at here. The OR could start planet killing infested Borg worlds, so what. I have never disupted that, I was the one who actually suggested that a few threads back.

You simply cannot prove that a) the borg are better than tactically inept and b) sufficent force could not be brought to defeat in detail the borg by various means.

Of course I can. Where is your proof that the Borg are tactically inept huh? Borg cubes not using retarded "flanking" and "formation" fighting? Sending one cube against the Federation? Using drones that don't have weapons? I have already addressed these points, and you haven't replied to them directly.

"Sufficient force?" Have you been looking at the numbers friend? I pulled a quote from Babtech listing the minimum estimate of Shadow cutter beam to be 10 kilotons. Want the quote again?

Shadow beams can also cut Narn heavy cruisers in half in a couple of seconds. A Narn heavy cruiser is about 750 meters long. It is several decks thick as well. If we assume that the beam melts a 10 meter-wide strip through 5 decks, the entire length of the vessel; and that the vessel is made of iron and is filled with air ~95% of the volume; the beams must have melted around 5700 cubic meters of iron. This would require around 41 terajoules of energy (~10 kilotons - on the same order of magnitude as the Hiroshima bomb). The Shadows do this with relative ease and at very long range several times during the battle in The Long Twilight Struggle.

Other estimates, such as a 250k TJ endurance for Shadow ships, are based on the 500 MT nuke which utterly shreds Shadow vessels, meaning they are overkill. By taking a number we do know, the amount of energy required to melt five decks of a Narn cruiser made of iron, we get an absolute lower limit for the Shadow cutter beam. If you want to be consistent, you'll accept this lower limit. Lower limits of Borg cube endurance so far are 0.1 x 40 x 10, using 0.1 MT torpedoes from 40 ship at Wolf 359 and ten torpedoes fired each. Which is already patiently absurd, since a 40 MT Borg cube means that around ten seconds of phaser fire would bring down a Borg cube's shields, and without shields a Borg cube has huge holes blown into it.

What the hell do these numbers mean? It means the Shadows and Vorlons themselves would have to commit a large amount of forces to affect the Borg greatly. Hit and run, a few planets destroyed here and there, won't make a difference to the Borg who have thousands of star systems.

And if you were creative you could without making the borg into something else defeat the OR.

Sure, I could have pulled out transporters, but since the OR have hulls designed to absorb and dissipate energy, I've deferred assuming that means dense hulls and therefore impenetrable by sensors. If I was creative enough, I would claim that for the Borg to be on equal footing with the Vorlons and Shadows, there would have to be a pause in the Borg's own affairs in the AQ -- in other words, we're looking at a Borg which has assimilated the DQ and the AQ, their enemies. But I choose not to go with that wankfest.

Brian

[brianeyci]

'A Minbari cruiser has a maximum endurance of 2 MT. The Earthforce small nukes are 2MT. I don't see why they wouldn't use 500MT warheads against the Minbari...'

This is a good example of why you're a bad debator: You're not thinking. Do you use a sledgehammer to kill a fly? A thermonuclear bomb to kill one soldier?

Look man, I am a bad debator but no doubt I am improving. Want to see my first few posts? Remember the Kirk, the phaser rifles and hand phasers? Remember Robin Hood? Actually don't, they're all pretty bad.

A few 500MT warheads would have held the line against incoming Minbari vessels. Hell, 500MT warheads would have destroyed fleets of Minbari themselves if detonated in close proximity to warcruisers which fly in formation. And that really is not the point. The point is, they never used nuclear missiles as a tactic beyond traps, not even the 2 MT ones. If EF commanders didn't use nukes against the Minbari, or even the Army of Light against the Shadows, they won't use nukes except as traps against the Borg either if they are to act in-character.

Brian

[SirNitram]

'A Minbari cruiser has a maximum endurance of 2 MT. The Earthforce small nukes are 2MT. I don't see why they wouldn't use 500MT warheads against the Minbari...'

This is a good example of why you're a bad debator: You're not thinking. Do you use a sledgehammer to kill a fly? A thermonuclear bomb to kill one soldier?

Look man, I am a bad debator but no doubt I am improving. Want to see my first few posts? Remember the Kirk, the phaser rifles and hand phasers? Remember Robin Hood? Actually don't, they're all pretty bad.

I expect you to be able to do math.

A few 500MT warheads would have held the line against incoming Minbari vessels. Hell, 500MT warheads would have destroyed fleets of Minbari themselves if detonated in close proximity to warcruisers which fly in formation. And that really is not the point. The point is, they never used nuclear missiles as a tactic beyond traps, not even the 2 MT ones. If EF commanders didn't use nukes against the Minbari, or even the Army of Light against the Shadows, they won't use nukes except as traps against the Borg either if they are to act in-character.

Prove it. Seriously, start doing the math to prove that 'A few 500MT warheads could destroy fleets in proximity bursts'. Include the fact that the Minbari have superior numbers and stealthing.

Again, if you want to play the 'Act in Character!!!' card, the Borg send single ships plodding along, no maneuvering, no changing at all. With weapons on par with the Federation or superior, the Earthforce and it's equals can hold them off, especially when their lack of frequency dependence and superior militarization is noted.

[brianeyci]

Prove it. Seriously, start doing the math to prove that 'A few 500MT warheads could destroy fleets in proximity bursts'. Include the fact that the Minbari have superior numbers and stealthing.

I'm using debating as a way to hone my logic. I'm not ashamed of admitting that I lack the skills to do calcs myself, look at my sig. That's why I defer to figures from DW and Brian Young. A lot of people debate without being able to do calcs, I don't see how that's a crime. One day SirNitram, I will be able to do calcs, and I'll holler when I can.

Again, if you want to play the 'Act in Character!!!' card, the Borg send single ships plodding along, no maneuvering, no changing at all. With weapons on par with the Federation or superior, the Earthforce and it's equals can hold them off, especially when their lack of frequency dependence and superior militarization is noted.

The Vorlons and the Shadows are not on par with the Federation, the Borg would send everything against them just like they sent everything against S. 8472. Also in VOY there are assimilation of planets where the Borg send several cubes, not just one cube against them, and in one of these episodes the attackers had at least as much firepower as the Feds because they lowered the diamond's shields and were about to destroy it. I already rationalized the one cube thing -- the Borg fixed the problem with their autodestruct, and sent one cube expecting the same. They got a rude awakening. What do you think happens next? Exactly what happened to that unnamed species that got assimilated by two Borg cubes and a diamond, or the other unnamed species that had their colonies overrun by "hundreds of cubes". I don't have Voyager scripts, but I can try and find quotes if you really want.

Brian

[Gunhead]

One shot one kill is something that happens in RL. Sci-fi space battles are a bunch of ships throwing dangerous shit at each other at idioticly small ranges.
(specially B5 and ST)Why don't they use/develop single hit kill weapons? Beats me. Best guess they can't or they work poorly so deploying them will work only in a limited number of scenarios. Single hit kills happen with super weapons, or when a hideously more advanced race wipes the floor with a less advanced one.

That's why Earthforce didn't use nukes against the boneheads.

-Gunhead

[brianeyci]

Okay Batman I've cooled down a bit. Although I still think you were silly for disputing the 30k TW figure because you thought DW based it on 24 megaton torpedoes.

Now answer this, how does 0.1 x 40 x 10 = 40 MT endurance cube make sense if ten seconds of phaser fire from a Federation ship can lower a Borg cubes shields? Without shielding, a Borg cube has huge holes blown into it like in Q Who.

Brian

[Batman]

Now answer this, how does 0.1 x 40 x 10 = 40 MT

20. At best half the yield can hit the shields.

endurance cube make sense if ten seconds of phaser fire from a Federation ship can lower a Borg cubes shields?

Just out of curiosity, where does that figure come from?

Without shielding, a Borg cube has huge holes blown into it like in Q Who.
Brian

Blowing big holes in a ship that appears to be mostly made of empty space is not much of an achievement in my book, especially when you figure in secondary explosions, but anyway...
Those 20 MT were dissipated over the entirety of the shield grid. The alleged 10-second phaser discharge hit a few square meters of one shield facet.
You are aware with the idea of intensity, yes?

[SirNitram]

Prove it. Seriously, start doing the math to prove that 'A few 500MT warheads could destroy fleets in proximity bursts'. Include the fact that the Minbari have superior numbers and stealthing.

I'm using debating as a way to hone my logic. I'm not ashamed of admitting that I lack the skills to do calcs myself, look at my sig. That's why I defer to figures from DW and Brian Young. A lot of people debate without being able to do calcs, I don't see how that's a crime. One day SirNitram, I will be able to do calcs, and I'll holler when I can.

I'll boil it down for you: It's not efficienct. The square-cube law means that the drop-off of effectiveness becomes heinous rapidly, especially over any space vehicle distances. Without atmosphere to grant an overpressure wave and fireball, the nuke cannot kill huge groups except by X-ray poisoning. And any space-faring race must defend against those just to travel the void.

Your idea is bunk: The 2MT pocket nukes were far more efficient traps.

Again, if you want to play the 'Act in Character!!!' card, the Borg send single ships plodding along, no maneuvering, no changing at all. With weapons on par with the Federation or superior, the Earthforce and it's equals can hold them off, especially when their lack of frequency dependence and superior militarization is noted.

The Vorlons and the Shadows are not on par with the Federation, the Borg would send everything against them just like they sent everything against S. 8472. Also in VOY there are assimilation of planets where the Borg send several cubes, not just one cube against them, and in one of these episodes the attackers had at least as much firepower as the Feds because they lowered the diamond's shields and were about to destroy it. I already rationalized the one cube thing -- the Borg fixed the problem with their autodestruct, and sent one cube expecting the same. They got a rude awakening. What do you think happens next? Exactly what happened to that unnamed species that got assimilated by two Borg cubes and a diamond, or the other unnamed species that had their colonies overrun by "hundreds of cubes". I don't have Voyager scripts, but I can try and find quotes if you really want.

Yes. All these assimilations with 'Hundreds of Cubes' are very close to the Borg Homeland. Farther away, we have never seen multiple cubes on the prowl.

[brianeyci]

20. At best half the yield can hit the shields.

So now its 20 megatons huh. Did you see the 10 kiloton minimum for Shadow cutter beam figure quote?

Just out of curiosity, where does that figure come from?

Sigh. 30k TW figure is valid against shields, and would be against Borg shields. Now take the 30k TW figure. From Young's site, 50k TJ is 12 megatons (since I'm lazy at doing conversions). So lets say 40 megaton Borg shielding, around 250k TJ endurance for Borg shielding. So, 30k TW means around eight seconds, lets make it ten seconds for a Fed ship to lower a Borg cubes' shields. And that is absurd, since Borg cubes without shields can have huge holes blown into them because they have cheesecake armor, and even have a torpedo beamed into their warp core. (Beaming a torpedo was used in VOY I believe). A cube without shields wouldn't last very long against Fed ships. Use even the 20 MT figure, and it gets even more absurd, a Fed ship could lower a Borg cube's shields in five seconds.

Blowing big holes in a ship that appears to be mostly made of empty space is not much of an achievement in my book, especially when you figure in secondary explosions, but anyway...

That's not the point, the point is that a Borg ship without shields has huge holes blown into it by even single torpedo shots a la Q Who and that didn't happen in ST:FC.

Those 20 MT were dissipated over the entirety of the shield grid. The alleged 10-second phaser discharge hit a few square meters of one shield facet.
You are aware with the idea of intensity, yes?

That's not the point, the point is that 20 MT figure means a Fed ship can lower a cube's shields in five seconds, and that means a torpedo beamed into their warp core or huge holes a la Q Who which didn't happen in ST:FC.

Brian

[Batman]

20. At best half the yield can hit the shields.

So now its 20 megatons huh. Did you see the 10 kiloton minimum for Shadow cutter beam figure quote?

Yeah, I did. Did you also see the picture showing how it went through the target like it wasn't there and KEPT GOING, meaning it still retained the vast majority of its energy? That's why it's a minimum.

Just out of curiosity, where does that figure come from?

Sigh. 30k TW figure is valid against shields, and would be against Borg shields.

As that would make a one-second phaser discharge the equivalent of 130 photon torpedoes (32 if we use the 450KT figure)-um, NO. Leave alone that was against AQ shields, which UNlike the Borg cannot adapt to a phaser's technobabble properties.

Blowing big holes in a ship that appears to be mostly made of empty space is not much of an achievement in my book, especially when you figure in secondary explosions, but anyway...

That's not the point, the point is that a Borg ship without shields has huge holes blown into it by even single torpedo shots a la Q Who and that didn't happen in ST:FC.

So?

Those 20 MT were dissipated over the entirety of the shield grid. The alleged 10-second phaser discharge hit a few square meters of one shield facet.
You are aware with the idea of intensity, yes?

That's not the point, the point is that 20 MT figure means a Fed ship can lower a cube's shields in five seconds,

You apparently AREN'T aware of intensity. Your 5-second number is bogus, BTW.

[18-Till-I-Die]

If this is too much of a variable let me know but it seems no one has asked where the other First Ones stand. Is it possible the Army of Light might call them in like at the Battle of Cornaria 6?

Now, first we dont exactly know where they stand in terms of firepower, but we do know they blew the Vorlon Planet Killer away in a few seconds. Perhaps equal to a few hundred MTs, or maybe more? I suck at math, horribly, and i dont know if it's kosher to bring in something like the First Ones in a battle like this but i just thought it was something that was being ignored that might prove important.

The Borg would have to deal with them eventually, you know. They wouldnt just sit back and be conquered, and i dont think they'd run from a 'younger' race of cyborgs. It may be important to the discussion to at leats consider where the First Ones would put their allegences, if at all.

[Darth Wong]

Borg shields have shown weak resistance against physical impacts, as demonstrated by the slow-speed collision of a cube with a Species 8472 ship in "Scorpion". Just pointing out something that hasn't been mentioned yet as far as I could see.

[Howedar]

I think I said something to that effect a few pages back WRT the chunks of rock later in that episode.

[brianeyci]

Yeah, I did. Did you also see the picture showing how it went through the target like it wasn't there and KEPT GOING, meaning it still retained the vast majority of its energy? That's why it's a minimum.

Same with the Borg being hit by 400 torpedoes is a minimum. The Borg weren't hurt at BOBW at all (or at least they regenerated all their damage by the time they hit Earth) just like the Shadows didn't expend any effort on cutting apart the Narn cruiser. Don't be a hypocrite, 10 kiloton Shadow cutter beam is the lowest estimate we can get just like 40 MT is the lowest estimate we can get of Borg cube endurance. (I can probably even get lower if I bring in screenshots of when Whitestars were bombarding Mars but I can't fucking find a good online gallery of B5, the Whitestars were firing in atmosphere since Mars was terraformed.)

As that would make a one-second phaser discharge the equivalent of 130 photon torpedoes (32 if we use the 450KT figure)-um, NO. Leave alone that was against AQ shields, which UNlike the Borg cannot adapt to a phaser's technobabble properties.

Oh well. The 30k TW figure isn't invalidated by the validity or invalidity of the photon torpedo figure, DW derived it from 34 different sources independently from the figure of photon torpedoes. Don't get me going about that again. It was you who chose the 0.1 MT torpedo figure, a bare mimumum which is inconsistent with phaser firepower anyway, deal with it. That's why the 0.1 MT torpedo figure is an absurd minimum just like the Narn cruiser. You want to know why? When Riker says "it will take all of our photon torpedoes to do it", taking him literally means the 0.1 MT torpedo figure. Riker could have been overkilling. Riker is not exactly the best person to trust when it comes to science. In fact, Riker is a fucking idiot. Check out the Riker thread in the Trek forum and tell me he could not have been wrong.

Now for a real torpedo number based on visuals, Master of Ossus estimates photon torpedo yield at.625 kilotons. That brings Trek to an all new low that I wasn't aware of before. However if we use the 10 kiloton Shadow cutter beams, then the Borg still have a chance.

If you do not trust the 30-40k TW phaser firepower, just what figure are you using? The 1-10TW phaser firepower is part of the same analysis, so whose analysis are you using? Who's numbers? Darkstars? I don't know where else to get a reliable figure of phaser firepower so enlighten me.

And adaptation or not, who fucking cares. Its just like saying "energy dissipation and aborption is superior to shields" or "my warp drive is superior to your quantum drive". In the end all we compare are numbers, the method by which the Borg deal with energy is irrelevant. Frequency does not allow a shield to magically deflect energy. Adaptation is largely undefined and the only thing we know about it is that it is based on frequency, not how much more resilient a ship becomes when it "adapts". You can't use some undefined mechanism like adaptation to throw out numbers. How much does adaptation allow the Borg to survive? 2x as long? 3x as long? 10x as long? 50x as long?

So?

So, the shields of the Borg cube were intact in ST:FC or huge holes would have been blown in the cube. Phaser fire lasted for more than eight seconds. Duh.

You apparently AREN'T aware of intensity. Your 5-second number is bogus, BTW.

No it isn't. And sure 20 MT could be spread around the cube, but that hurts your argument and helps mine, for then a phaser shot could lower a cube's shield even quicker, so I don't know why you bring it up.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Also about the "adaption" bug -- when the Borg "adapt" it is always referred to as when the Borg become invulnerable to phaser fire. For example, when the Borg drones "adapt", phaser fire can no longer hurt them. When a Borg diamond "adapts" to phasers from 40 ships from a race in the DQ, the diamond was on the verge of being destroyed but the 40 ships are suddenly "no longer a threat".

In other words, from the time of BOBW to ST:FC, Borg cube "adaptation" seems to no longer work as the Borg cube gets heavily damaged by Federation forces which use frequency switching. 40 ships firing at once, randomly changing shield and phaser frequencies might be too much for the Borg to handle.

Brian

[Lost Soal]

One of the tactics suggested for the Borg is to assimilate the YR and gain access to hyperspace technology. This benefit of the assimilation has a slight problem in that after assimilating ships with Quantum Slipstream drive the Borg have not been able to utilise this in their own ships. the same thing might be possible of jump engines.

One aspect which seems to be missing from this debate is the effective combat range of their weapons. The Star Trek database shows the typical ranges employed as being only a few km upto ~10km maximum with a lot of the shots missing.
The effective range of B5 capital ships appears to be far greater than this. In "A Voice in the Wilderness" Ivanova states the range of the attacking ship to be 300km and this is after being under attack from an advancing ship for ~3mins. Visuals of the scene lend credence to this as the ship is clearly shown to be many time B5's length in distance away. The same distances are shown in "The Fall of Night" and "Severed Dreams" when under attack from the Centauri and Earthforce Destroyers respectively.
If it turns out that Borg weapons are more powerfull than the Shadows/Vorlons can withstand then they would simply batter the cubes from outside the Borgs weapons ranges

Sorry but I can't provide caps as support because I won B5 on VHS with no way to transfer to my PC.

[quote]Starfuries were using suicide tactics regularly during the Minbari war. Don't tell me they couldn't have strapped nuclear missiles underneath the Starfuries and went on suicide runs. Sheridan never mentioned transferring nuclear warheads from missiles, I believe he asked for the number of mines on the ship IIRC. And we don't see Earthforce use nuclear missiles against each other when they are not fighting Minbari. Remember, a Sharlin warcruiser can take 2 megatons, other YR hulls would be paper compared to Sharlins.[/quote]

There is a perfectly reasonable explination for why this tactic wouldn't have worked for Earth Force. In all the encounters shown in that war only 2 ships were shown to successfully ram a Sharlin, Starfury and Nova Destroyer. This is because in almose every other instance the Earth fleet was annialated before they could get anywhere near the Minbari. In the first battlescene of In The Beginning, a fleet of appox imately 8 Novas and Hyperians was engaged and destroyed within 6 seconds of firing beginning. Small wonder they wouldn't waste their nukes by trying to ram with them. While missles wouldn't work as the scencers cannot scan or lock onto the Minbari

[brianeyci]

Well Nitram, after a quick inquiry (it is good to have a Borg expert under your pocket heh heh) this is it,

ARTURIS: My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defences. They were closing in and Species eight four seven two was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall, twenty three in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defence against the storm. By the time they surrounded our star system, hundreds of Cubes, we'd already surrendered to our own terror. A few of us managed to survive, ten, twenty thousand. I was fortunate. I escaped with a vessel, alone, but alive. I don't blame them, they were just Drones acting with their Collective instinct. You, you had a choice!

Also, about the Omega particles,

JANEWAY: Sorry, if someone out there is experimenting with Omega I'm under orders to stop them. Otherwise, this entire Quadrant would be at risk.
SEVEN: Those orders were issued as a result of Starfleet's ignorance and fear. I can alleviate your ignorance. As for your fear.
JANEWAY: Sometimes fear should be respected, Seven. Tell me, how many Borg were sacrificed during this experiment?
SEVEN: Twenty-nine vessels, six hundred thousand drones. But that is irrelevant.

So the Borg do concentrate their ships in fleets when needed to. And the Vorlons and Shadows would force the need. Hyperspace and Telepathy may be just as interesting as Omega to the Borg.

Brian

[brianeyci]

If it turns out that Borg weapons are more powerfull than the Shadows/Vorlons can withstand then they would simply batter the cubes from outside the Borgs weapons ranges.

One wonders why battles degenerate frequently into short range affairs at all then. The explaination would be that in large fleets, ECM/Sensors would be jammed/exploited, making long range combat unfeasible. Trek has shown single ships fighting other single ships to fight at ranges of kilometers as well, but in a fleet its always up close and personal. Same with B5 I believe, unless your examples are of large fleet engagements. And there are many examples in B5 of fleet engagements that degenerate into close range combat.

There is a perfectly reasonable explination for why this tactic wouldn't have worked for Earth Force. In all the encounters shown in that war only 2 ships were shown to successfully ram a Sharlin, Starfury and Nova Destroyer. This is because in almose every other instance the Earth fleet was annialated before they could get anywhere near the Minbari. In the first battlescene of In The Beginning, a fleet of appox imately 8 Novas and Hyperians was engaged and destroyed within 6 seconds of firing beginning. Small wonder they wouldn't waste their nukes by trying to ram with them. While missles wouldn't work as the scencers cannot scan or lock onto the Minbari

Okay. But doesn't explain why they weren't more regularly used in other cases against non-Minbari who don't have this stealth system.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Hyperspace and Telepathy may be just as interesting as Omega to the Borg.

Hyperspace would be new and thus pique their interest, but I don't see why telepathy would. The Borg have assimilated races with telepathic abilities, like Vulcans.

[brianeyci]

One of the tactics suggested for the Borg is to assimilate the YR and gain access to hyperspace technology. This benefit of the assimilation has a slight problem in that after assimilating ships with Quantum Slipstream drive the Borg have not been able to utilise this in their own ships. the same thing might be possible of jump engines.

Well, after the Quantum Slipstream drive was assimilated, we didn't see the Borg use it, true. But why would we "see" the Borg use it anyway? Even if they did assimilate it, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to see it to believe it. The Borg did assimilate the species that had the technology that allows the Borg to regenerate, and deployed it onto all their vessels. Nothing is perfect, but if you are able to assimilate Hyperspace engineers and scientists along with the technology, I don't see why Borg would have an obstacle if they manage to assimilate a homeworld of a YR.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Hyperspace would be new and thus pique their interest, but I don't see why telepathy would. The Borg have assimilated races with telepathic abilities, like Vulcans.

A good question would be whether the Borg would figure out to use telepaths against Shadow ships.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Well, after the Quantum Slipstream drive was assimilated, we didn't see the Borg use it, true.

Borg transwarp coils send a Borg vessel into transwarp with visually identical characteristics. Furthermore, transwarp coils allow Borg vessels to travel vastly faster than slipstream. The Delta Fly in STVOY "Dark Frontier" covered 200 lightyears in seconds utilizing a Borg transwarp coil.

[brianeyci]

What I'm really surprised of is that nobody has done the following to calculate a yield for photon torpedoes.

Take this picture,



and use the fact that we know exactly how large a Borg cube is and how far away the Enterprise is, use 97% empty space and iron, and calculate a yield for photorps. I tried finding it in the archives, I thought this would have been done long ago, but either my search skills suck or it doesn't exist.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Hyperspace would be new and thus pique their interest, but I don't see why telepathy would. The Borg have assimilated races with telepathic abilities, like Vulcans.

A good question would be whether the Borg would figure out to use telepaths against Shadow ships.

Brian

A better question is if B5 telepaths could hope to compete against a artificial intelligence that monitors and controls billions of individual minds at once.