Tactical Stupidity in Science Fictions

[Master of Ossus]

I don't know why you would need a gunner for just that. Perhaps the gunner has other duties, and that use of the harpoons was mostly a secondary function of the gunner. Remember that Luke called out "Attack Pattern Delta. Go, Dack." Implying that Dack had something to do with that maneuver. In the CCG, though, it is revealed that Attack Pattern Delta only involves flying with multiple speeders in a straight line, so that only the first one can be targeted by enemy troops/walkers/what have you. This indicates, to me at least, that the gunner also has some function in either coordinating multiple speeders, or in the performance of the actual speeder itself, which would allow the pilot to concentrate more completely on the handling of the speeder, or in the maneuvers that take place during combat.

[Tsyroc]

You live nextdoor to a huge ape. You build an enormus wall to keep him out. Do you build small doors in the wall that you can barely squeeze through, or huge gates that can be forced by a pissed ape?

Loved that one.

[Akm72]

I don't know why you would need a gunner for just that. Perhaps the gunner has other duties, and that use of the harpoons was mostly a secondary function of the gunner. Remember that Luke called out "Attack Pattern Delta. Go, Dack." Implying that Dack had something to do with that maneuver. In the CCG, though, it is revealed that Attack Pattern Delta only involves flying with multiple speeders in a straight line, so that only the first one can be targeted by enemy troops/walkers/what have you. This indicates, to me at least, that the gunner also has some function in either coordinating multiple speeders, or in the performance of the actual speeder itself, which would allow the pilot to concentrate more completely on the handling of the speeder, or in the maneuvers that take place during combat.

According to the script it's actually;
DACK: "Luke, I have no approach vector. I'm not set."
LUKE: "Steady, Dack. Attack pattern delta. Go now!"
So it's not clear if Luke's second sentance is aimed at Dack or the other Speeder pilots.

Isn't it much easier to assume that the harpoon/tow-cable is a special tactic developed before the battle as a fallback becuase they knew (or suspected) that their blasters would be ineffective against the big AT-ATs? The alternative, that Luke made it up on the spot, and they just happened to have the equipment and a gunner handly, just seems so implausable.

[Mr Bean]

Maybe they did not have enough Speeders of all the Pilots and Tradtionaly Pilots do make great ground troops and decided to stick them in thier?

Or prehaps Gunners run whatever sensors/ECOM equipment they have the speeders

[Smiling Bandit]

The Gunner was there presumably to target the guns more effectively. Or possibly to monitor other systems. We don't know enough about the weaponry or tevchnology used - and the ships were modidified heavily anyway.

[Knife]

Perhaps the term weapons officer, or radar intersept officer would be more approprate than gunner. Or the good old term "back seater".

[Setzer]

The Fifth Element: the survival of humanity is at stake, and they send one man because they don't want a high profile operation. Why the fuck not? The survival of the human race is at stake and you don't want to make waves? Naturally, their lone warrior finds himself vastly outnumbered (duh).

That's why I didn't like Mechwarrior 2 for the Playstation. Each mission I go on, They send 1 Mech (me) against dozens of mechs!

[Kamakazie Sith]

More examples of tactical stupidity in sci-fi:

• Aliens: I've gone over this in other threads, but once again, they armed with AP rounds against an enemy with no body armour, they changed their minds and disarmed rather than heading back to the APC to rearm, they left the dropship sitting in an unsecured area with the door open for hours and no one guarding the entrance, they didn't leave a single crewman on the Suvaco to rescue them or call for backup if he monitored the first dropship being destroyed, and they chose to make their stand in a building which they weren't familiar with but the aliens were, and where all combat would occur at extreme close quarters so that the tactical advantage of their ranged weaponry would be nullified (instead of finding an elevated position out in the open, setting up a perimeter with the sentry guns, and picking off approaching aliens from range).

The Aliens are armored. It requires at least a 10MM AP round to damage their exoskelton.

[tharkûn]

Some other strategic blunders I haven't seen mentioned when I skimmed the thread:

Naboo: You have a large army in a contained area with no NBC protection. Who forgot the nerve gas/tear gas/whatever?

You have a large army hiding behind a wall at most 2 meters tall, large numbers of lightly armored troops are deployed behind said wall. Their overhead sheild protects against bombardment ... where the hell are the grenade launchers? March a few droids in with good old fashioned launched frag grenades and decimate the rabble.

Okay so you are screwed with no chemical weapons (maybe you are somewhat humane), no grenade launchers ... why in hell aren't your grunts walking up to the sheild wall and tossing frag grenades over it?

This is a VERY common sci-fi problem ... nobody seems to like to use frag grenades ... rather than try shooting a clump of 30 guys at close range ... pitch in a frag grenade. The number of battles in Sci-fi that become no contests with frag grenades and chemical weapons is astounding.

RoTJ:
You are a scout trooper trying to warn the Imperials of a Rebel spec ops force in your territory. There are several of you and only 2 of them on these uberfast speeder bikes. Why in hell do you NOT split the frik up so if 1 of you dies the other is very far away from the pursuit?

Or we look at rebel tactics ... you have a foreward firing gun and are positioned behind the enemy. Do you:
a. Stay back where you can actually shoot the enemy ... just on his tail?
b. Gun the engine to come up along side him where you can't shoot him?

You have just dispatched a half dozen enemy sentries. Do you:
a. Attack before you lose the element of surprise?
b. Wait a night so there is no way in hell the base is not alerted that *6* bloody sentries failed to report in?

Your troops are ambushed by natives ... why in hell does NO ONE inside know that all Empirial forces outside have been routed? Normally some officer or NCO takes time to keep the higher ups notified of battle progress, normally one of the armored vehicles makes radio contact somewhat frequently ... yet NOBODY inside the damn bunker knows all their men got their asses handed to them.

TESB:
Why are all your observed AA guns FORWARD FIRING ONLY? EVERY speeder in TESB is shot down by AT-AT's whose neck precludes reward fire. Had the rebels taken the logical step of making those harpoon runs from BEHIND the Imps would have been crushed.

[Master of Ossus]

The biggest tactical blunder in SW was the Gungan maneuvers (or, lack thereof) within their energy shield. They should have opposed the droid's entry into the shield by pushing their melee forces all the way forward. In this manner, they would have limited the droid's ability to bring their superior numbers into the battle by isolating a few rows of droids, instead of trying to defend against the massive droid formations all at once.

[tharkûn]

MoO:
Did they have enough sheilds to cover the whole perimetre? Trying to remember, but for that tactic to work they need to have the whole sheild perimetre facing energy sheilds.

I still think the lack of frag grenades/chem weapons was worse. If if the enemy tries your tactic you can still wrack up heavy casualties with some nice grenades. There is a reason why NOBODY bunches guys in combat if they can possibly avoid it ... the frag grenade.

[Master of Ossus]

The point is that the droids can only hurt the Gungans once they get under the shields. If the Gungans parked themselves right in front of the shields, the droids would have had to fight their way through the thickest of Gungan forces, instead of being able to mass their forces under the shields unopposed. Basically, the Gungans should have moved up about thirty meters from where they actually began the fight in the movie. That way, only one rank of droids could have fought them at once. It's really not a matter of shields, it's a matter of troops. They should have moved in to fight the droids, but instead they sat back and allowed lots of droids to fight them, instead of smaller groups.

[tharkûn]

MoO: Only problem there is a compotent commander would simply have had the droids attack from multiple directions at once. You are right about the best idea being to stop the droids at a choke point, but if you want to do that you need to spread your forces out until that sheild wall collapses ... at which point some machine gunners will can your ass.

Basically the gungans are hopelessly screwed, but the Trade fed should have won in record time with minimal losses.

[Coalition]

And as someone pointed out before on these message boards, the tactics at the Battle of Hoth were needlessly dangerous. The Rebel snowspeeders went head-on with the AT-ATs instead of flanking them. They didn't even attempt to try to blow out the ground under or in front of the AT-ATs. Unless they encountered these monsters for the first time, they weren't really thinking too much about the situation. All of the times I ever played Shadows of the Empire, Rogue Squadron, and Rogue Leader, I NEVER went head-on with AT-AT's. I ALWAYS advanced on their sides. The very first time I ever played the Battle of Hoth level in Shadows of the Empire, I thought to myself, "I don't want to get in the way of those AT-AT's..." It's just common sense that you should avoid their "heads."

One possible series of events is the following:

1) Luke orders them to use the harpoons (seen)
2) AT-AT is taken down (seen)
3) Someone else tries it, and it works for them as well. (not seen)
4) Imperial general feels Vader at his throat, and orders his AT-ST forward to take out the cables, even though it will be exposing them to the Rebel anti-armor fire (not seen)
5) AT-ST moves up (seen)
6) No more harpoon attacks are seen, although Luke later takes out an AT-AT by opening a panel and tossing a grenade in. (seen)
7) AT-ST is destroyed by anti-armor weapons (not seen)
8) Main Reactor is hit. (seen)
9) AT-ATs have finished off all the anti-armor weapons, and begin picking off Rebel soldiers (seen)

One possible set of events that might have happened if the Speeders had attacked from the side, and avoided the Imperial fire:
1) AT-ATs pour their full firepower into the Rebel ground troops lines, killing dozens.
2) anti-armor guns are destroyed, maybe a few rebel lines are disrupted
3) after the speeders perform their next pass, stormtroopers jump out the sides of the AT-ATs, and set up anti-air positions all over the place.
4) Speeders face several dozen anti-air positions firing on them whenever they get near the battlefield, not to mention troops calling out their positions whenever they set up for an attack run.

Oh, and about the White Stars, not only is the bridge n the top of the ship, but it is also in an extended part of the ship. If you look at a White Star from the side, you can see there is no connection between the bottom of the bridge and the rest of the White Star below it. Any engineers want to comment on the 'strength' of that design?

[Enlightenment]

Oh, and about the White Stars, not only is the bridge n the top of the ship, but it is also in an extended part of the ship. If you look at a White Star from the side, you can see there is no connection between the bottom of the bridge and the rest of the White Star below it. Any engineers want to comment on the 'strength' of that design?

Not to mention that the White Star type uses real windows in the front of the bridge. One small nuke blast and everyone on the bridge will be blinded faster than you can say that Minbari engineers nothing but a bunch of boneheads.


This post requires a length (411).

[Gandalf]

Patrick Degan wrote

•Star Trek: Deep Space Nine —Sisko allows continual Jem'hadar reinforcements to simply flow through the wormhole for weeks before making any movement whatsoever to close off that avenue of attack from the Gamma Quadrant. He waits until war is breaking out to even address the problem of shutting off the wormhole and, because of his devotion to the Prophets, hits upon the complicated plan to mine the space around the wormhole instead of simply collapsing it altogether. Sisko further compounds his stupidity by breaking one of the cardinal rules of warfare by not destroying DS9 on the retreat to deny it to the enemy, giving Dukat and Weyoun's scientists months of opportunity to crack the computer programme controlling the mines. The only reason the Federation didn't lose the Dominion War, in my view, is that the Dominion were even more tactically inept than Starfleet.

-With the laying of the mines, collapsing the Bajoran wormhole was proven impossible, when they tried to do it earlier ("In Purgatory's Shadow", "By Inferno's Light") they actually strengthened it so that it could not be collapsed.

-It wasn't his station to self destruct, it wasn't Starfleet's, it was a BAJORAN station, and if he self destructed it the Bajorans would be pissed that he destroyed their only decent space station.

[Lagmonster]

More examples of tactical stupidity in sci-fi:

• Aliens: I've gone over this in other threads, but once again, they armed with AP rounds against an enemy with no body armour

This may have already been addressed, but after reading the subsequent Aliens novels (Aliens: Earth Hive specifically), I was under the impression that you needed armor-piercing weaponry to get through their body plates? There was a quote in the book to effect that "You need armor-piercing, military-grade weaponry to kill one and even then it isn't easy. An Australian with a shotgun, a Chinese farmer with a pitchfork, they aren't going to stand a chance against these things."

[Patrick Degan]

Patrick Degan wrote

•Star Trek: Deep Space Nine —Sisko allows continual Jem'hadar reinforcements to simply flow through the wormhole for weeks before making any movement whatsoever to close off that avenue of attack from the Gamma Quadrant. He waits until war is breaking out to even address the problem of shutting off the wormhole and, because of his devotion to the Prophets, hits upon the complicated plan to mine the space around the wormhole instead of simply collapsing it altogether. Sisko further compounds his stupidity by breaking one of the cardinal rules of warfare by not destroying DS9 on the retreat to deny it to the enemy, giving Dukat and Weyoun's scientists months of opportunity to crack the computer programme controlling the mines. The only reason the Federation didn't lose the Dominion War, in my view, is that the Dominion were even more tactically inept than Starfleet.

-With the laying of the mines, collapsing the Bajoran wormhole was proven impossible, when they tried to do it earlier ("In Purgatory's Shadow", "By Inferno's Light") they actually strengthened it so that it could not be collapsed.

No, you're forgetting that the wormhole was stabilised by technobabble means. This does not negate the fact that collapsing the wormhole was the more viable means of shutting off the flow of enemy forces from the Gamma Quadrant. Sisko had more than enough time for his scientists to devise a means to reverse what Changeling-Bashir did. The real reason was because his loyalties to the Prophets conflicted his loyalties to the Federation.

-It wasn't his station to self destruct, it wasn't Starfleet's, it was a BAJORAN station, and if he self destructed it the Bajorans would be pissed that he destroyed their only decent space station.

And what does that have to do with anything? It wasn't Sisko's option to care about the opinion of the Bajorans (assuming that they too wouldn't understand the necessity of denying useable facilities to an enemy force). War is no place for sentimentalities to get in the way of doing your job. Sisko's responsibility was to deny DS9 to the enemy (and it was his station to destroy insofar as he was in command). He was negligent in not following SOP in the event of being forced from his position. He allowed a strategic facility to fall into the hands of the enemy.

Historical precedent: upon the fall of France to the Nazis in June 1940, the British Mediterranean Fleet, under the command of Vice Admiral Sir James Sommerville, was dispatched to Toulon with orders to shell the French fleet at dock and destroy it. Whitehall decided that the warships of Britain's vanquished ally could not be allowed to be added to the Kriegsmarine. The French commander, Admiral Darlan, was given only three options to avoid this fate: either take his ships out and place them under the British command, or take them to a neutral port for internment, or scuttle at dock. Darlan felt he did not have the authority to do the first or second, and he refused to do the third. So Somerville carried out his orders. Even though it wasn't "his" fleet to destroy. Even though the French might have been "pissed" at him for doing so. Neither of these considerations stayed Vice Admiral Somerville's hand. He had his gunners open fire on the French ships at dock the second the deadline passed. Some were sunk and others put out of action for the rest of the war.

That's military pragmatism —the only valid driver for decisionmaking in war.

[Master of Ossus]

MoO: Only problem there is a compotent commander would simply have had the droids attack from multiple directions at once. You are right about the best idea being to stop the droids at a choke point, but if you want to do that you need to spread your forces out until that sheild wall collapses ... at which point some machine gunners will can your ass.

Basically the gungans are hopelessly screwed, but the Trade fed should have won in record time with minimal losses.

The droids probably did not have the ability to do that. The Gungan shield perimeter was actually enormous. The shield beneath which Jar Jar and company fought was just one of a series of shields. You can see a group of them just before the fight. The Gungan army was much larger than it at first appeared. Now, the droids would have tried to engage from the rear, but that would have required their forces to move all the way around the shields (or over them, if possible). Meanwhile, the Queen would be making her attack. The purpose of the Gungan army was to draw off the droids for as long as possible. Even if the net result was a loss, anyway, it would have bought more time, if nothing else. Further, it appears as if the Gungans had more than enough forces to protect the perimeter of the one shield we focus on most heavily, as they had a huge number of ranks and files of troops. They should have tried to get the droids to come out and fight them in smaller groups, opposing their ability to enter the perimeter. This would clearly have been more effective than what they did.

[tharkûn]

MoO: The droids already were travelling a significant distance to get to the battle site. Further these were all air dropped troops initially, you should at least have enough mobile troops to hit from multiple directions.

You can see a group of them just before the fight. The Gungan army was much larger than it at first appeared.
I am not aware of that, will try to find the shot (unless you have a screenshot availible).

Meanwhile, the Queen would be making her attack. The purpose of the Gungan army was to draw off the droids for as long as possible.
The trade fed does not know this, they should deploy to quickly and efficiently crush the opposition. The fact that it is merely a diversionary attack changes nothing how the droid army should have been deployed.

Further, it appears as if the Gungans had more than enough forces to protect the perimeter of the one shield we focus on most heavily, as they had a huge number of ranks and files of troops. They should have tried to get the droids to come out and fight them in smaller groups, opposing their ability to enter the perimeter. This would clearly have been more effective than what they did.
The problem is not troops, against compotent army on that type of terrain that many troops are nothing but fodder ... the limiting factor are those little sheilds. You could likely mow down the entire army with a few WWI machine guns if it weren't for the spiffy sheilds.

I don't know if you are right. If they have the equipment to defend the entire interior perimetre ... then they should do so. If not then they should deploy in the best defensive formation they can hold (or perhaps not fight standing up on open ground) so as to prolong the diversion.

No matter how you dice it, a modern army, hell a WWI army, could crush the gungan army in record time by using compotent tactics.

[Master of Ossus]

The fact that the battle was diversionary DOES change the way that the Gungans should have deployed. They should have made every effort to force the Droid army to commit forces to the battle meaninglessly, and to hold out for as long as possible before incurring such heavy casualties that they had to abandon the field. Now, th Gungan shield clearly protected the entire army or it would have been crushed in short order.

Also, the TF army did not enjoy a truly mobile deployment. They were bound the the MTT's. While not as slow as a person moving on foot (Qui-Gon was incapable of running from one), they do not have blazing speed, either. The TF would have had to have spent time in redeploying their forces to attack a rear portion of the Gungan Grand Army.

[tharkûn]

MoO:
The fact that the battle was diversionary DOES change the way that the Gungans should have deployed
Yes which is why I specifically stated it doesn't change the way the DROID army should have been deployed (in a multiprong attack).

Also, the TF army did not enjoy a truly mobile deployment. They were bound the the MTT's. While not as slow as a person moving on foot (Qui-Gon was incapable of running from one), they do not have blazing speed, either.
You don't need to redeploy the enire army. Just a fire guys with L(H/M)MG's. Shooting the standing ranks of Gungans in the back with machine guns would be child's play. You could likely kill the entire army in minutes with relatively few machine guns.

Look I don't know all of your claims, if you are correct and the Trade Fed can't deploy behind you (strategic blunder on their part) and you have the ability to defend right next to the perimetre, then yes the personal sheild wall right next to the theatre sheild is best ... lasting an extra two minutes when the droids bust out frag grenades.

[Patrick Degan]

Both sides are guilty of tactical ineptitude on Naboo. The Trade Federation, after all, aren't a professional military force but a commerical guild. They employed droid armies and armed starships to enforce their ventures, but its clear that military strategy was not considered particularly worthy of study in TradeFed priorities. The fact that it had been centuries since there had been anything like a general war in the Republic galaxy may have had something to do with this level of martial atrophy. Likewise, the Gungans, while having a fairly advanced culture, had probably never taken to a battlefield in decades or centuries themselves. So the situation was something akin, albeit on a much smaller scale, to the Iran/Iraq war of the 1980s, where the two combatants had modern weapons but employed World War I tactics and the result was horrendous and pointless slaughter for very little gain.

[oberon]

Slashing is preferable to stabbing because it's easier to see if you've made enough damage. Stabbing, all you have is a hole, and you'd be like "did I get his liver? Or is it just a flesh wound? Maybe I'd better stab him a couple more times. Maybe slit his throat just to be sure." Whereas when you slash them across the neck in the first place, or remove their scalp with a bayonet or bash them across the face with a shovel, you can see the gore and also look into their eyes and see if they're coming back at all.

[SylasGaunt]

More examples of tactical stupidity in sci-fi:

• Aliens: I've gone over this in other threads, but once again, they armed with AP rounds against an enemy with no body armour

This may have already been addressed, but after reading the subsequent Aliens novels (Aliens: Earth Hive specifically), I was under the impression that you needed armor-piercing weaponry to get through their body plates? There was a quote in the book to effect that "You need armor-piercing, military-grade weaponry to kill one and even then it isn't easy. An Australian with a shotgun, a Chinese farmer with a pitchfork, they aren't going to stand a chance against these things."

That is correct sir. In one of those same novels Wilks did manage to kill an alien with a pistol but he had to shoot it in the mouth, and in a transmission from earth they see someone fire on an alien with a non-AP weapon and the slug just bounced off.