Terminator Salvation

[K. A. Pital]

Maybe Skynet never gave a fuck about Reese and just wanted to kill Connor.

Logical lines in the movie make little sense, even as the action scenes are superb. Just saw it recently - definetely worth the the $2,5 for admittance, but it's not even "Trek XI" in terms of shaking up the franchise.

They need a stronger next movie if they want to really transform it - something like teh "Dark Knight" to "Batman Begins"

[Anguirus]

Maybe Skynet never gave a fuck about Reese and just wanted to kill Connor.

Then why is he "Target #1?" You can handwave it as a faked transmission, except we see it going through the motorcycle robots' heads.

Hell, Skynet could have simply directed Marcus Wright to kill Reese as soon as he was alone with the little girl and then go directly to Connor and tell him that Reese had been captured. If you believe ANY of Skynet's Evil Monologue at the end of the movie, you have to ask why it didn't do this. Marcus is either independent, or he isn't. If Skynet has the objectives that it repeatedly shows itself and claims itself to have, then it botches them horribly. The movie was flawed on a conceptual level, as it required Skynet to pull its punches, something it has never, ever done.

(T3 was almost as bad, with the T-X knocking off Connor's flunkies BEFORE going to Connor, directly leading to Skynet Losing The Movie by failing to kill Connor, but at least it didn't fuck around when it had the chance to kill an enemy of Skynet. It just obliterated him or her. In T1, Sarah Connor only lived because she happened to be the last Sarah Connor in the phone book, and because her enemy was NORAD Skynet instead of Omniscient Internet Skynet and it therefore didn't know that much.)

[neoolong]

I thought Skynet couldn't find Connor in T3, thus why the T-X went after the Connor's people. It was only by accident that it discovered Connor, and went after him once it did find him.

[K. A. Pital]

Then why is he "Target #1?"

Because he was a priority target, and Skynet quite likely gave such priorities to all it's machines - especially knowing that humans are tracking it's signals (I have no other explanation for how humans immediately know where and how Skynet's machines are moving). After all, he was captured not terminated.

You can handwave it as a faked transmission, except we see it going through the motorcycle robots' heads.

Because the task was not to kill Reese but capture him? The "priority #1" may have referred to capture indeed. Else, that makes no fucking sense at all. The flying bot could've killed Reese at any time, just as the hunter killer and the big walking hulking bot could. At ALL times. If Skynet could at this point rewrite Marcus' memories, that was easy as heck.

Marcus is either independent, or he isn't.

How could he not be independent, when he rips Skynet's chip out of his head? I though Skynet gave him a mechanical body and a chip which transmitted everything HE saw to Skynet, but it had no control over his brain. Skynet didn't control him. Else, the end makes no sense. "I want to rip out that chip". "Sorry Marcus, Marcus-BOT takes over".

(T3 was almost as bad

T-what? That movie didn't exist. No, no-no-no. I was actually elated to know that doomsday in T-4 has been moved to a completely other date and they never reference the events of T-3 where it was in what, 2008 or 2012?

[Ryan Thunder]

[...]
(T3 was almost as bad, with the T-X knocking off Connor's flunkies BEFORE going to Connor, directly leading to Skynet Losing The Movie by failing to kill Connor, [...]

That was because Skynet was aware of the locations of Connor's lieutenants but didn't know where Connor himself would be at the time. It thus concluded that, since it couldn't destroy Tech-Com altogether by killing Connor, it would try to severely reduce his chance of success by killing everyone who was going to help him.

That doesn't strike me as particularly ridiculous, especially when you consider that the T-X immediately interrupted that mission as soon as it found evidence that Connor was nearby...

[Anguirus]

^ Conceded, because I haven't bothered to watch that movie since it came out in theaters.

Because he was a priority target, and Skynet quite likely gave such priorities to all it's machines - especially knowing that humans are tracking it's signals (I have no other explanation for how humans immediately know where and how Skynet's machines are moving). After all, he was captured not terminated.

I guess I shall concede this point as well...despite the fact that the humans pick up that Kyle is Target #1 on the Death List, and that Kyle is Target #1 to the Cycle-Bot, we don't know that Target #1 is actually at the top of a Death List or if that's just misinformation. However, the question still remains why this is the case. It kept Kyle around for no discernible reason and then tried to kill him with a Gatling-gun armed Terminator.

T-what? That movie didn't exist. No, no-no-no. I was actually elated to know that doomsday in T-4 has been moved to a completely other date and they never reference the events of T-3 where it was in what, 2008 or 2012?

Agreed! Did they change the date though? I thought that Brewster and the T-1 were indications that this was a T3 sequel.

How could he not be independent, when he rips Skynet's chip out of his head? I though Skynet gave him a mechanical body and a chip which transmitted everything HE saw to Skynet, but it had no control over his brain. Skynet didn't control him. Else, the end makes no sense. "I want to rip out that chip". "Sorry Marcus, Marcus-BOT takes over".

Conceded AGAIN, because I believe I was thinking of the script draft where the chip DOES control Marcus and he can only remove it when there is a power surge. I would have to rewatch the movie to confirm if Skynet does in fact control Marcus' behavior at any point with the chip.

[Rye]

It started out as a pretty salvageable post apocalyptic war film. By the end, Skynet went from the unseen, terrifying, calculating exterminator of the human race in the first two films, to an apple mac with a bond villain complex. It made NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL. Skynet was barely defended, its defences could be brought down by a cyborg it doesn't even have direct control over, and it feels a bizarre need to confess its evil plan. Whoever wrote that needs to be shot.

It also had the clumsiest exposition and matrix-style philosophising I've seen in a long while, and largely unnecessary since everything had pretty much been laid out. It was eyerolling stuff for the 12A audience, as was the T800 (the same model of which we saw punch a guy up into his abdomen in the first film) attempting to terminate John Connor.

The ending was lame and contrived.

McG was a competent director, visuals-wise, the actors weren't great. Ironside had a fraction of the believability he had in Starship Troopers. The director is an absolute moron for getting Danny Elfman (not really known for his skills with industrial synths, to be honest, though he did an okay job) to score it instead of Brad Fiedel, almost as stupid as the Blue Man Group for the T3-related single. Jesus Christ.

If I'd have written it, it would've been Saving Private Ryan in the future, the journey of the 132nd under Perry, which would find itself behind enemy lines and Connor's TechCom going after it, knowing Reece is critical to the future's survival. For a twist, I might even have it so the real Kyle died and John sent some other guy back who calls himself Kyle Reece.

[Vympel]

I just saw it. It was an adequate way to spend a few hours, but nothing more. Filled with plot holes, the action started to get a little samey after the first few scenes, and the T-800 just seemed too hardy to me compared to T2 (i.e. the molten steel).

Anyway, Skynet's HQ didn't bother me that much - there were Cyberdyne symbols and what not all around, it made me think it was a Cyberdyne building or something before the war, and Skynet simply appropriated it and expanded it, but then, if it's in SF, shouldn't have been destroyed? Eh, I dunno ...

[Shroom Man 777]

Shit, that's a good idea Rye! Fucking A, man. Now THAT would've been real future war. Shit.

[Anguirus]

Ironside had a fraction of the believability he had in Starship Troopers.

That was the same guy as in Starship Troopers? Shit, he was MUCH better in that film.

[Oskuro]

I can't help but agree with Shroomy's appraisal of Rye's suggestion. In fact, that was what I expected of the movie when it was first announced: Non-stop gut-wrenching warzone action.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hell, it would've worked better on so many levels too, Oskuro! I mean, with it being Saving Private Reese and shit, the Terminator-themes get played in such an awesome way! How? Why, by showing that in the Future War that John Connor isn't some bitch ass who needs a 'protector' or is in need of 'saving' or shit, but that now HE is the protector and goddamn savior of humanity! Christian Bale would've been more effective in his hardass brooding action hero mode that way, in a goddamn future warzone, in a hellish roadtrip across the desecrated postapocalyptic wastelands, meeting and killing the fuck out of all sorts of obscene mechanical killing machines and shit on a single-minded mission to save Kyle Reese! See, now John Connor himself is on a mission to SAVE THE FUTURE (AND THE PAST!) and it's not HE who needs saving, but Reese! Kyle Reese! COME WITH ME IF YOU WANT TO LIVE! NO FATE!

By extension of this hellish journey to the heart of steel (darkness), you can see John Connor go from some mid-level Resistance leader to this legendary "great military leader". Kyle Reese's unit would've been pinned down by some superior machine army, and they would be on a desperate defensive protecting civilians or some shit, and see with John Connor not only saving Reese and ruining metal shit, but also rescuing all those postapocalyptic rat-eating shitpiece refugees and survivors, we can further cement the image of Connor as the goddamn messiah!

Fuck it, then we can have shit like radio-addresses and shit!

THEN maybe afterwards! AFTER this shit, in Terminator 5 can we see Skynet begin to ditch its old-fashioned "T-600" Terminators (though they should've totally stuck with the T-70 from the T2:3D ride) as it experiments with more realistic infiltrators. Namely the beginning of the T-800 and the unique Marcus Wright!

We deal with "what it means to be human" and the coming of the T-800 in the goddamn sequel! So we can devote more time to Marcus' plight, his conflicting humanity and his being a goddamn infiltrator designed to kill John Connor (and Reese!), while also making Connor out to be this "Great Military Leader" with his state of the nation addresses as he rises up the ranks of the Resistance! Then we'd get to see some Kyle kickassery too! Then through Marcus' epic sacrifice, or his siding with humanity, can we see the Resistance strike a major blow at Skynet! He'd lead them to Skynet's secret labs, or shit.

See, we'd devote more time to each of the themes and not make the movies crammed or shit.

By the third sequel, Terminator 6, after Marcus' heroic sacrifice in T5, after so many battles and shit, we'd see the culmination of all this buildup! We finally get to see the big battle in itself, John Connor leading the Resistance, Reese being at the front lines and ruining machine shit, everything! And it ends with the inevitable sendoff to the goddamn future-past.

THAT'S how you do it!

And shit, in T4, I totally would've ditched that lame ass "kiss cancerous bald woman" scene and replaced it with a montage intro - like Watchmen and Toolverine Origins! Except displaying scenes of Judgment Day, the Future War, and Sarah Connor narrations describing how horrific the postapocalypse was!

Goddamn it.

[hongi]

And shit, in T4, I totally would've ditched that lame ass "kiss cancerous bald woman" scene and replaced it with a montage intro - like Watchmen and Toolverine Origins! Except displaying scenes of Judgment Day, the Future War, and Sarah Connor narrations describing how horrific the postapocalypse was!

I remember seeing Sarah Connor's dream sequence as a kid, with nuclear fire stripping flesh from bone and I was shaking in my boots. We needed a gratuitous apocalyptic intro damn it.

[neoolong]

That wouldn't fly in a PG-13 movie I'd imagine.

[Oskuro]

Hell yeah, Shroomy! That would have been awesome, specially because that's probably what most of us would have expected from a future WAR.

by showing that in the Future War that John Connor isn't some bitch ass who needs a 'protector' or is in need of 'saving' or shit, but that now HE is the protector and goddamn savior of humanity!

Ok, now I can't keep thinking of Bale going "I'm the goddamned JOHN CONNOR!"

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I just thought of something. Despite how this sounds, this is actually a semi-serious question:

John Conner sends Kyle Reese back in time. Post-humously sure, but according to T:S, he knows he has to do it. So, does John have to say the equivalent of, "Kyle, I need you to go back in time and fuck my mother,"?

Because when you get down to it, that is pretty much the entire reason John values Kyle so much. And Kyle obviously sees John as this messiah-figure, wouldn't fucking his equivalent of a Virgin Mary be pretty much the furthest thing from his mind unless he knew he had to to produce John Conner?

[Stark]

Haven't you seen T1? Sarah isn't a virgin (lol) and Kyle has a giant boner for her before he even goes back.

[dragon]

Just got back from seeing it, better than T3 but still had alot of small problems. A heart transplant in the desert with a resistance member that happens to be a heart surgeon. And of course Marcus heart was a match to connor heart . THen of course all the interfaces that were sight and touche operated, why the hell would skynet build something that is an obvious waste of resources and a secruity flaw. EVen though I sure by now several have mentioned these glaring issues already.

[Coalition]

Because when you get down to it, that is pretty much the entire reason John values Kyle so much. And Kyle obviously sees John as this messiah-figure, wouldn't fucking his equivalent of a Virgin Mary be pretty much the furthest thing from his mind unless he knew he had to to produce John Conner?

That would have been a nice thing in the Terminator movie - where Skynet proceeds to interrogate Kyle Reese, asking "Why does John Connor value your life?"

Skynet has noticed that John Connor has been very annoying to itself, yet he values Kyle Reese extremely highly. Kyle Reese is just a teenage kid who picks off a terminator at rare times. He isn't a super warrior, he isn't resistance leadership, he's effectively nothing. Why is he so important to John Connor? It explains why Skynet picks him out of the cattle lineup, it keeps Kyle alive while Skynet interrogates him, etc.

It also gives vocal data for the T-800 to use to imitate Kyle's voice to lure John Connor back.


For the touch interfaces, I'd wonder if those are also used by Skynet as psychological warfare against some prisoners, to see if/how they escape. As they escape, Skynet notices flaws in its own security setups and corrects them. Like rats in a changing intelligent maze. When they realize the truth, the rats are killed, food stocks and medical supplies are replaced, and another batch of rats are brought in for another run.

[Lord Pounder]

I just thought of something. Despite how this sounds, this is actually a semi-serious question:

John Conner sends Kyle Reese back in time. Post-humously sure, but according to T:S, he knows he has to do it. So, does John have to say the equivalent of, "Kyle, I need you to go back in time and fuck my mother,"?

Because when you get down to it, that is pretty much the entire reason John values Kyle so much. And Kyle obviously sees John as this messiah-figure, wouldn't fucking his equivalent of a Virgin Mary be pretty much the furthest thing from his mind unless he knew he had to to produce John Conner?

I was recently watching the first Terminator movie. from it I got the impression that Kyle, like many males in the resistance, did have a major thing for Sarah, when asked why he volunteered for the mission back his reply was "a chance to meet the legend" etc. I don't however think Reece knew he was JC's dad, I think that was a closely held secret. I get the impression that only Connor and his wife knew in Salvation. Letting Reese in on the secret might actually put the eventual seduction in jeopardy.

[neoolong]

Except that he also tells Marcus. I believe that Barnes and others were in the room as well when John said it. Kinda odd actually.

[NecronLord]

I just saw this film. On balance, I'd say it was very well directed and shot, the visuals were very neat (could have done with more non-humanoid terminators; the harvester-mecha was a groan moment for me, though I did like its ear-shattering foghorn action) but the plotting left something to be desired.

When Connor was fighting that T-800, I kept waiting for Marcus to have to save him from it deciding to punch a hole in his chest. Eventually, I decided it had to be skynet toying with Connor - because otherwise, there's no real explanation of how he lasted that long.

Also, the kissing the cancerous woman scene in the beginning was beautiful. Fie on anyone who says otherwise. (Though the 'That's what death tastes like' line... was unkind)

[The Grim Squeaker]

I have seen the movie .
I find myself extremely impressed for the better, I feared my immense fan-humping for the movies might cause me to loathe it (especially after LOATHING T3), but I really liked the movie.

Simply as a movie it was great (tight, fantastic effects, great visual direction, even if the shots of the post-JD world did not tap their potential), not to mention the CGI on the T-800 which was the most humanlike i've ever seen, as a sci fi movie it was fun (Robots! Giant death ray shooting Robots! WotW "Hooooooooooooooom" noises from energy blasts! Glowing Red Eyed Terminators!), and as a Terminator movie it worked pretty well, apart from the insane unexplicable stupidity of keeping Reese alive and the wrestling fest that was Connor's fight. Brutal efficiency used to be a hallmark of the Terminators (The aforementioned fist through the chest).

I really liked it, it was more of a T2 (action, SFX and fun) than a T3 (crap). .

[Oskuro]

For the touch interfaces, I'd wonder if those are also used by Skynet as psychological warfare against some prisoners, to see if/how they escape. As they escape, Skynet notices flaws in its own security setups and corrects them. Like rats in a changing intelligent maze. When they realize the truth, the rats are killed, food stocks and medical supplies are replaced, and another batch of rats are brought in for another run.

Still makes no sense. Why bother with that when you can enclose the rats in plain metal walls of doom? The whole "there's always a way out" cliche, is based on the prison cells needing humans to get in and out of them. If your prison bloc is just huge metal slabs set in place by robotic arms, there's no way the prisoners will get out.

I'd buy it if they were a training/simulation so that Skynet can learn about the Resistance's security measures (by seeing how they overcome them) to thus improve the infiltrators.

[SylasGaunt]

and as a Terminator movie it worked pretty well, apart from the insane unexplicable stupidity of keeping Reese alive and the wrestling fest that was Connor's fight. Brutal efficiency used to be a hallmark of the Terminators (The aforementioned fist through the chest)..

It's been mentioned but the T-800 in T1 kills Ginger's boyfriend by chucking his ass all over the place rather than fist through the chest so they don't always do the most efficient thing it seems.