Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extractor

[NecronLord]

Again can you provide quotes to back up these claims of Necron creation whether by Necrons or by C'tan? I believe you were also the one that claimed Necrons can recall minds when the body is destroyed. Can you produce a quote for that as well?

Gigabytelord did it a few posts ago. I don't see a need to repost it. He even highlighted the relevant bit in red for you to see easier.

The singular uniqueness of the various Necron characters would suggest against the ability to copy minds. Why else would Necron generals still be valued if it were a simple matter to just copy them over endlessly into new bodies? For example, The Necron Lord Zahndrekh (p. 60-61, new Necron Codex) is valued for his abilities as a commander despite being deluded in believing he is still fighting ancient wars from when he was flesh and blood.

No, it doesn't argue against ability, it argues against them being willing to do so. There's a difference. The new necrons, have a whole functioning honour code, normally they don't even use snipers or ambushes against an enemy they consider honourable FFS, let alone cloning themselves. The evidently have the ability to control multiple bodies, this is Trazyn's entire thing.

Actually it would in so far as anything specifically Necron related is concerned. The Canoptek Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs are maintenance and security bots. They aren't the main force used by the Necrons in fighting or reclaiming their domains.

Wrong. Scarabs are a major component of many attacks; they're not considered respectable, or used for the main fighting, but they are used aggressively.

No necrons are permanently destroyed. Gigabytelord actually quoted this fact to you before.

[Iracundus]

Gigabytelord did it a few posts ago. I don't see a need to repost it. He even highlighted the relevant bit in red for you to see easier.

You claimed they recalled minds even when the body was totally destroyed and irrecoverable. The 5th edition rulebook says body and mind are recalled together. That is describing the more common situation where there are still recoverable remains which presumably still house the Necron mind. That is not the same situation.

No, it doesn't argue against ability, it argues against them being willing to do so. There's a difference. The new necrons, have a whole functioning honour code, normally they don't even use snipers or ambushes against an enemy they consider honourable FFS, let alone cloning themselves. The evidently have the ability to control multiple bodies, this is Trazyn's entire thing.

You are muddying the issue by mentioning a separate ability, that of controlling bodies which is distinct from actually duplicating minds:

...substitute bodies into which he can pour his will. Should the body suffer catastrophic damage, Trazyn's essence simply returns to his 'true' form, or otherwise into another surrogate.
p. 59, Necron Codex

The above only demonstrates Trazyn can move into a new body and that he sometimes has multiple surrogate bodies. Nothing there whatsoever about multiple Trazyn minds. Later in that same Codex entry, it describes how Trazyn's mind suppresses that of whatever Necron body he takes over. Essentially Trazyn is engaging in a form of possession. This ability is not the same as actually being able to duplicate or create new Necron minds. Mentioning irrelevant abilities has no bearing on the original issue any more than being able to juggle has any bearing on a discussion of whether one can run a marathon.

Wrong. Scarabs are a major component of many attacks; they're not considered respectable, or used for the main fighting, but they are used aggressively.

Simply being used in combat doesn't mean they are suddenly frontline combat forces any more than having a flying drone suddenly means drones are suddenly the bulk of the U.S. armed forces. Go through the Codex entries and the vast majority of all the Necron fighting forces involve Necrons of some form either as pilots, or as foot troops. Scarabs, Wraiths, and Spyders are all supplements to the main force and are shown as such in the force construction rules. It isn't possible to construct a Necron force in 40K that doesn't involve Necrons as the bulk of the army. Therefore Necrons ARE the frontline troops of the Necron faction. It even says as much for the Wraiths:

Though their primary function is to watch over their sleeping masters, Wraiths are often drafted into armies as advance scouts.
p. 44, new Necron Codex

Being drafted into a new role doesn't change the primary original purpose, that of a security bot to keep watch over inactive tomb complexes. It shows that such constructs have primary functions other than that of dedicated combat.

No necrons are permanently destroyed. Gigabytelord actually quoted this fact to you before.

And again you repeatedly reference quotes that deal with a scenario where there are recoverable remains, which isn't the situation that is being examined. The situation being examined is what happens when there is no recoverable body at all, such as when hit by a D-gun or as mentioned in the Necron Codex itself, when a Necron self-destructs not teleports away and the entire body is consumed in emerald light. Is there direct canonical quotable 40K evidence as to what happens in such a specific situation? It is a simple and straightforward question. If yes, then quote it directly.

[NecronLord]

You claimed they recalled minds even when the body was totally destroyed and irrecoverable. The 5th edition rulebook says body and mind are recalled together. That is describing the more common situation where there are still recoverable remains which presumably still house the Necron mind. That is not the same situation.

Ahah. Granted. Just to oblige you, I have gone and bought the e-book of Hammer and Anvil, to give you the quote (originally I read my girlfriend's copy):

Too late the nemesor realised what would come next. The torn dimensional links had nowhere to go, nothing to anchor themselves upon. With no terminus, the communion links entered a destructive feedback loop. The single driving impetus of the connection – to never be broken, to never allow a necron to truly die –overwhelmed all other functions of his army.

Like a wave of lightning, a cascade of green sparks advanced over the torsos of each necron on the planet’s surface, every warrior and war machine suddenly caught in the wake. The dead-man’s switch in their heads tripped, and the nemesor’s horde began to phase out, sucked into a dimensional non-space that existed in the voids between realities.

As one, the necrons emitted the same piercing death cry, unable to stop themselves from being dragged into the undertow of the moon’s destruction. Khaygis struck out, reeling from the effects. He was aware of other high-level warfighters trying to resist the compulsion of dissolution, the lychguards trying desperately to rewrite their own mind-code to ignore the recall order, failing and vanishing in flames.

Khaygis saw his command Monolith consumed by a shrieking bolus of jade fire, and watched his phalanx of immortals shudder into their own personal storms of self-destruction. He would not fall like this. He could not. He was chosen of the Stormlord, soldier of Eternity, the nemesor and meatkiller.

The necron general reached into his own digital matrix and found the compulsion-code dragging at him, begging him to submit to the recall command. An ordinary necron, one left after biotransference without the higher mental functions of a high born, would never have been able to hold it off – but Khaygis did. He perceived the communion links stretching away into the void, at last finding some unknown Tomb World hundreds of light years away. But he would not go, not yet. He could not. There was still a deed to be done
[...]
He edited the pain-sense out of his experience, deleting it along with the recall command string. All around him, his soldiers were disintegrating or falling useless, rendered broken by the destructive meddling of these human animals. Fire rose all around, casting a hellish glow over his gleaming steel epidermis

This is the necron self destruct; we clearly see that it doesn't involve dying, but rather, disintegrating the body and shunting the mind down a communication link, hundreds of light years away (their local tomb has been blown up) in this case. While some do some "dimensional non space" stuff, others are quite clearly disintegrated, and still affected by the recall.

You are conflating two different abilities, that of controlling bodies and actually duplicating minds:

...substitute bodies into which he can pour his will. Should the body suffer catastrophic damage, Trazyn's essence simply returns to his 'true' form, or otherwise into another surrogate.
p. 59, Necron Codex

The above only demonstrates Trazyn can move into a new body and that he sometimes has multiple surrogate bodies. Nothing there whatsoever about multiple Trazyn minds. Later in that same Codex entry, it describes how Trazyn's mind suppresses that of whatever Necron body he takes over. Essentially Trazyn is engaging in a form of possession. This ability is not the same as actually being able to duplicate or create new Necron minds. Mentioning irrelevant abilities has no bearing on the original issue any more than being able to juggle has any bearing on a discussion of whether one can run a marathon.

Umm, it demonstrates that the mind is either portable between bodies, or one mind can control multiple bodies. Either suffices to the task of making more necrons, if Trazyn can control more than one body, so can others, if he can copy his mind into other bodies, then he can copy his mind into new ones.

Simply being used in combat doesn't mean they are suddenly frontline combat forces any more than having a flying drone suddenly means drones are suddenly the bulk of the U.S. armed forces. Go through the Codex entries and the vast majority of all the Necron fighting forces involve Necrons of some form either as pilots, or as foot troops. Scarabs, Wraiths, and Spyders are all supplements to the main force and are shown as such in the force construction rules. It isn't possible to construct a Necron force in 40K that doesn't involve Necrons as the bulk of the army. Therefore Necrons ARE the frontline troops of the Necron faction. It even says as much for the Wraiths:

It explicitly references necron lords sending out scarabs indepdantly, this is a thing that happens multiple times in the background, including in Dead Men Walking, where scarabs on their own demolish huge parts of a hive city. Scarabs are used independently in background, it is not in the tabletop army list any more than a titan operating on its own is used as a tabletop army in 40K, even though that also happens (Titan: God Machine, and similar sources) in the actual setting.

And again you repeatedly reference a scenario where there are recoverable remains, which isn't the situation that is being examined. The situation being examined is what happens when there is no recoverable body at all, such as when hit by a D-gun or as mentioned in the Necron Codex itself, when a Necron self-destructs not teleports away and the entire body is consumed in emerald light. Is there direct canonical quotable 40K evidence as to what happens in such a specific situation?

See above. Khaygis' force self-destructs, and their minds are recalled. Of course, as we know, necrons' minds take damage from the resurrection process, and this probably occurs when the actual machinery of retransmission back to base is damaged, but they certainly put something back together.

[Iracundus]

Too late the nemesor realised what would come next. The torn dimensional links had nowhere to go, nothing to anchor themselves upon. With no terminus, the communion links entered a destructive feedback loop. The single driving impetus of the connection – to never be broken, to never allow a necron to truly die –overwhelmed all other functions of his army.

Like a wave of lightning, a cascade of green sparks advanced over the torsos of each necron on the planet’s surface, every warrior and war machine suddenly caught in the wake. The dead-man’s switch in their heads tripped, and the nemesor’s horde began to phase out, sucked into a dimensional non-space that existed in the voids between realities.

As one, the necrons emitted the same piercing death cry, unable to stop themselves from being dragged into the undertow of the moon’s destruction. Khaygis struck out, reeling from the effects. He was aware of other high-level warfighters trying to resist the compulsion of dissolution, the lychguards trying desperately to rewrite their own mind-code to ignore the recall order, failing and vanishing in flames.

Khaygis saw his command Monolith consumed by a shrieking bolus of jade fire, and watched his phalanx of immortals shudder into their own personal storms of self-destruction. He would not fall like this. He could not. He was chosen of the Stormlord, soldier of Eternity, the nemesor and meatkiller.

The necron general reached into his own digital matrix and found the compulsion-code dragging at him, begging him to submit to the recall command. An ordinary necron, one left after biotransference without the higher mental functions of a high born, would never have been able to hold it off – but Khaygis did. He perceived the communion links stretching away into the void, at last finding some unknown Tomb World hundreds of light years away. But he would not go, not yet. He could not. There was still a deed to be done
[...]
He edited the pain-sense out of his experience, deleting it along with the recall command string. All around him, his soldiers were disintegrating or falling useless, rendered broken by the destructive meddling of these human animals. Fire rose all around, casting a hellish glow over his gleaming steel epidermis

I am not seeing any minds being recalled in that above quote. Since I do not have the novel, I cannot say I totally know the context of that situation but it seems the Necrons are phasing out to no destination with both body and mind as a result of a broken link, or alternatively some are self-destructing. Being dumped into a nowhere void with their body and mind intact isn't the situation that was being examined. If they are self-destructing, I do not see anything in that quote about their minds going anywhere, just that we see some forms vanish in flames. Nothing is stated about what happens to the minds of those that self-destruct in that quote. They could just as well be destroyed body and mind. In other words, I am not seeing text that backs up the claim of recall of mind without some form of physical body. The quote shows Khaygis resisting a recall from the newly re-established link, that has the destination of recall be a tomb world, but his physical form is intact and again this isn't the situation being discussed.

Umm, it demonstrates that the mind is either portable between bodies, or one mind can control multiple bodies. Either suffices to the task of making more necrons, if Trazyn can control more than one body, so can others, if he can copy his mind into other bodies, then he can copy his mind into new ones.

Trazyn never is depicted controlling multiple bodies simultaneously. The entry just shows how "surrogate bodies" are ready vessels for his mind to take over, almost like a backdoor access. It describes how he moves his mind into a new body, that reshapes itself to be Trazyn. Moving minds isn't the same as actually copying his mind. For example, we do not see anything said about the original Trazyn body being active Trazyn is off in another body. The description portrays Trazyn as a singular consciousness that moves from body to body, but meanwhile his body isn't shown to be active and could possibly be inactive. There is only ever one Trazyn mind shown. Again what he is doing, is basically a single mind possessing a bodies in series. When driven from one, he goes to another ready vessel or back to his own original body. Being able to do this isn't necessarily the same as being able to copy minds or create new ones. That he can move his mind does not allow us to conclude anything about the Necron ability or inability to make new Necron minds or copy themselves.

It explicitly references necron lords sending out scarabs indepdantly, this is a thing that happens multiple times in the background, including in Dead Men Walking, where scarabs on their own demolish huge parts of a hive city. Scarabs are used independently in background, it is not in the tabletop army list any more than a titan operating on its own is used as a tabletop army in 40K, even though that also happens (Titan: God Machine, and similar sources) in the actual setting.

Titans are shown to be the bulk of their own military formations, the Titan Legions which are shown in the background to be autonomous military units under the Adeptus Mechanicus. Titans are designed with a primary purpose of combat. Scarabs are not. Their purpose as described in the Codex is reclamation of resources. That some of these resources might come from organic beings doesn't alter the fact the Scarabs are not designed with combat as a primary function. Like the Wraith, the fact Necron generals have found a role for Scarabs doesn't mean Scarabs have suddenly become the troops and combat forces of the Necron legions.

[Iracundus]

Looking over my post, perhaps I didn't explain what I meant regarding the quote very clearly:

The quote seems to be depicting essentially 3 situations:
1) Some Necrons being phased out, body and mind, and ending up being dumped in a nowhere void due to the links being broken resulting in there being no destination for their recall
2) Some Necrons self-destructing and disappearing in flames. Nothing said about their minds going anywhere.
3) The link is re-established to a tomb world far away. The Necron general who is physically intact resists the recall back to this tomb world.

Only situation 2 is directly relevant to what was being discussed: that of whether or not there is recall and preservation of the mind when the body is entirely destroyed. And in that quote I am not seeing anything mentioned about the minds of those particular subset of Necrons that are self-destructing.

[NecronLord]

I am not seeing any minds being recalled in that above quote.

Because you don't want to. Read it again. The self-destruction is caused by the destruction of their tomb tripping a dead-man switch, the stated function is to stop them from dying: "to never allow a necron to truly die" - if the destruction of their bodies caused their minds to be destroyed, why would the signal supposed to stop them dying cause that? A communications link over hundreds of light years is clearly stated (there is an earlier passage I will add to that) why would the system be set up to prevent them dying... cause them to die? Answer; it's illogical. The most logical solution is that their conciousness is salvaged. More detail on the system is provided in this earlier quote:

The shrieking alarms fed him the last few instants of the complex’s existence, deluging him in reams of data that showed the moment in flawless detail. Every necron, from the lowliest of scarabs maintaining the tombs to the exalted lordship of Great Imotekh himself, carried in their braincase a communion link. The device allowed signalling over near-infinite distances, the ability to transmit data instantly through the arcane control of quantum entanglement phenomena.
Khaygis knew of some lesser species that spoke of ethereal cords connecting their physical forms in the real world with their spiritual ones in the phantasmal. That was idiocy, of course, but the Stargods had gifted the necrontyr with many technologies when they embraced biotransference, and this link was one of them, a near-literal expression of that mystical ideal. Each necron was connected in part or in whole to an invisible network that spanned the galaxy, broken only by lines of dynasty and fealty. When their physical structures suffered critical levels of damage, it was the quantum link that was the means by which their digital consciousness and their damaged forms were reeled back to the closest World Engine or Tomb Planet

In other words, I am not seeing text that backs up the claim of recall of mind without some form of physical body. The quote shows Khaygis resisting a recall from the newly re-established link, that has the destination of recall be a tomb world, but his physical form is intact and again this isn't the situation being discussed.

Might I suggest you try and work out the internal logic of the text before applying an interpretation? Triggering a self destruct to prevent yourself dying is literally pointless. While it is clearly shown that communications links do in fact, exist, able to transfer their digital consciousness. And/or their bodies.

The entry just shows how "surrogate bodies" are ready vessels for his mind to take over, almost like a backdoor access. It describes how he moves his mind into a new body, that reshapes itself to be Trazyn. Moving minds isn't the same as actually copying his mind. For example, we do not see anything said about the original Trazyn body being active Trazyn is off in another body. The description portrays Trazyn as a singular consciousness that moves from body to body, but meanwhile his body isn't shown to be active and could possibly be inactive. There is only ever one Trazyn mind shown. Again what he is doing, is basically a single mind possessing a bodies in series. When driven from one, he goes to another ready vessel or back to his own original body. Being able to do this isn't necessarily the same as being able to copy minds or create new ones. That he can move his mind does not allow us to conclude anything about the Necron ability or inability to make new Necron minds or copy themselves.

You should justify your idea that "digital consciousness" that can be easily moved between bodies, and imprinted on new bodies, literally cannot (as opposed to not being done for social reasons) be put into multiple bodies. This is not the logical implication of the technology.

Titans are shown to be the bulk of their own military formations, the Titan Legions which are shown in the background to be autonomous military units under the Adeptus Mechanicus. Titans are designed with a primary purpose of combat. Scarabs are not. Their purpose as described in the Codex is reclamation of resources. That some of these resources might come from organic beings doesn't alter the fact the Scarabs are not designed with combat as a primary function. Like the Wraith, the fact Necron generals have found a role for Scarabs doesn't mean Scarabs have suddenly become the troops and combat forces of the Necron legions.

Some scarabs are designed for combat, notably those present aboard necron starships, and they are deployed on their own, see Dead Men Walking.

Tomb Stalkers, the example I quoted, are exclusively designed for combat, albeit combat of intruders.

Patterned in the shape of ancient and alien beasts of prey, Necron Tomb Stalkers are huge unliving machines; swift, tireless and relentless engines of murder that know neither pity nor remorse. Differing somewhat in scale and form, Tomb Stalkers and other similar constructs serve a function first of all to guard their masters’ sleep, eternally vigilant in their search for intruders that might disturb the dread tombs in which they slumber. Tomb Stalkers can detect the pulse of life through hundreds of metres of solid rock and use this ability to home in unerringly on their victims, employing a form of phase field to pass through inert matter as if it were water, striking without warning and leaving nothing but blood and dust in their wake.

Only encountered on the tomb worlds of the Necrons, these constructs are the fearsome guardians of their sepulchers. The stalkers have likewise been tasked for the battlefield. Their phasing capability pairs with their unerring sensor capacity to make them fearsome personnel. Given their massive size, the Tomb Stalker is capable of rending tanks to little more than shrapnel, and overwhelming all but the most immense xenos creature or demonic entity.

The Black crusade piece has a picture of a much bigger tomb stalker than the forgeworld one sitting on a Rhino, demonstrating that different models exist: Link presumably it's this giant version that does the tank eating.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents them making as many Tomb Stalkers (either type) as they desire. If they had to, and had the time and resources, they could make and deploy them by the billion, given the ease of production in Hand of Corruption.

Looking over my post, perhaps I didn't explain what I meant regarding the quote very clearly:

The quote seems to be depicting essentially 3 situations:
1) Some Necrons being phased out, body and mind, and ending up being dumped in a nowhere void due to the links being broken resulting in there being no destination for their recall
2) Some Necrons self-destructing and disappearing in flames. Nothing said about their minds going anywhere.
3) The link is re-established to a tomb world far away. The Necron general who is physically intact resists the recall back to this tomb world.

Only situation 2 is directly relevant to what was being discussed: that of whether or not there is recall and preservation of the mind when the body is entirely destroyed. And in that quote I am not seeing anything mentioned about the minds of those particular subset of Necrons that are self-destructing.

The compulsion code affecting the nemesor is said to be the same code affecting the others. He is able to resist it better than them; the same thing, IE the hundreds of light years, thing, is happening to them.

[NecronLord]

Oh, in case you're wondering, solitary and grouped Tomb Stalkers are also encountered by players in Hand of Corruption, inside and out of the tomb.

[Iracundus]

Because you don't want to. Read it again. The self-destruction is caused by the destruction of their tomb tripping a dead-man switch, the stated function is to stop them from dying: "to never allow a necron to truly die" - if the destruction of their bodies caused their minds to be destroyed, why would the signal supposed to stop them dying cause that? A communications link over hundreds of light years is clearly stated (there is an earlier passage I will add to that) why would the system be set up to prevent them dying... cause them to die? Answer; it's illogical. The most logical solution is that their conciousness is salvaged.

The stated function of preventing death is recalling their physical forms which house their minds. As quoted previously in the Necron Codex, when phase out fails, the Necron self destructs in order to prevent technology falling into the hands of an enemy. That is the goal and purpose of self-destruction, not preventing death. Preventing death is the purpose of phasing out. Also it is all very well and good to state the aim of phase out is to prevent death, but that does not mean this is always achievable or that there are not competing secondary goals such as denial of technology. The very fact that phase out can fail means the technology of these links is not infallible. When these links fail to teleport out the body, why should we suddenly think they should be able to teleport out the mind when not able to do so for the body? When faced with the prospect of losing technology to an enemy, the least bad alternative the Necrons have decided on is self-destruct.

The sequence could be thought of as follows:"
1) Phase out and take body and mind back to tomb world to prevent death. In doing so, secondary objective of denial of technology to enemy is achieved.
2) Where 1) is not possible, self-destruct to deny technology to the enemy.

The quote shows an atypical situation where the link is cut off, resulting in no destination. Such a malfunctioning situation as I stated appears to have resulted in the lesser Necrons doing 1 of 2 things:

1) Phasing out anyway, even though it results in their body and mind being dumped in some nowhere void
2) Vanishing in a blaze of flames.

The second situation appears to match perfectly the line in the Codex of self-destruction when phase out fails. Given the lack of a valid destination to phase out to, some Necrons appear to have treated this as a failed phase out and self-destructed instead. Why should we suppose their minds are saved when the link still has no destination? As quoted, the re-establishment of a valid destination is noted to occur after some Necrons have already self-destructed.

Also from the Necron Codex:

Cascade failures of stasis-crypts destroyed millions, if not billions, of dormant Necrons. Some Tomb Worlds were destroyed by the retribution of marauding Eldar...Other Tomb WOrlds fell victim to the uncaring evolution of the galaxy itself. Tectonically unstable planets crushed Necron strongholds slumbering at their hearts; stars went supernova, consuming orbiting Tomb WOrlds in their death throes.
p. 8, new Necron Codex

The very fact there have been permanent deaths for Necrons show that simply having an ethereal link doesn't mean they are saved. After all, surely they should have been saved by being phased to a different tomb world far away? Yet they were not, and died permanent deaths. The existence of a link may have been for the purpose of trying to prevent death, but intent and final results don't always have to coincide.

Despite all the technology aimed at preservation, repair, recall, all these things ultimately boil down to preservation. Preservation of the same set of minds to be re-used over and over again. However the fact there are final deaths from such apparently mundane things as tectonic shifts shows these technologies are not infallible and it is possible for Necrons to die, and they have died despite the stated purpose of a link to prevent them from ever dying.

Should a fallen warrior fail to phase out, it self-destructs and is consumed by a blaze of emerald light. Outwardly, this appears little different to the glow of teleportation, leaving the foe to wonder whether the Necron has finally been destroyed or has merely retreated to its tomb.
p. 5, new Necron Codex

The two sentences here show there are 2 distinct possibilities that outwardly look similar: self-destruct, or teleportation. The phrase "finally been destroyed" also suggests such a possibility as final destruction, not merely "destroying the physical body so the mind has to await a new body".

The shrieking alarms fed him the last few instants of the complex’s existence, deluging him in reams of data that showed the moment in flawless detail. Every necron, from the lowliest of scarabs maintaining the tombs to the exalted lordship of Great Imotekh himself, carried in their braincase a communion link. The device allowed signalling over near-infinite distances, the ability to transmit data instantly through the arcane control of quantum entanglement phenomena.
Khaygis knew of some lesser species that spoke of ethereal cords connecting their physical forms in the real world with their spiritual ones in the phantasmal. That was idiocy, of course, but the Stargods had gifted the necrontyr with many technologies when they embraced biotransference, and this link was one of them, a near-literal expression of that mystical ideal. Each necron was connected in part or in whole to an invisible network that spanned the galaxy, broken only by lines of dynasty and fealty. When their physical structures suffered critical levels of damage, it was the quantum link that was the means by which their digital consciousness and their damaged forms were reeled back to the closest World Engine or Tomb Planet

Again the whole thing about their digital consciousness and damaged physical forms. Again that is talking about the more common situation where there is something physical to recover in the first place.

Might I suggest you try and work out the internal logic of the text before applying an interpretation? Triggering a self destruct to prevent yourself dying is literally pointless. While it is clearly shown that communications links do in fact, exist, able to transfer their digital consciousness. And/or their bodies.

As explained above, triggering of self-destruct is when phasing out is not possible, which is technically the case when the phase out has no valid destination, for the purpose of denying technology to the enemy (a goal stated in the Codex). The sequence of events: recall triggered, search for valid destination, no valid destination found, therefore no retreat possible so proceed to self-destruct. The self-destruct is for when the option of escape is not possible, and the Necrons appear to have taken the rationale of reasoning that if a Necron is ever caught in a situation where no escape is possible then preventing dying is also no longer possible.

Again I am not seeing any evidence of transfer of consciousness without transfer of bodies at the same time in that quote. There is nothing shown of those self-destructing Necrons' minds going anywhere. Where Necrons are shown phasing out, it is shown with bodies and minds simultaneously.

You should justify your idea that "digital consciousness" that can be easily moved between bodies, and imprinted on new bodies, literally cannot (as opposed to not being done for social reasons) be put into multiple bodies. This is not the logical implication of the technology.

The burden of proof rests on the person making a positive claim. You are trying to assert they have the capability to copy minds. Saying they can move minds is not the same as saying they can copy minds. If you want to try to prove they can copy minds, a positive claim of an ability, you have to provide proof of that or provide proof that the ability to move equates to the ability to copy. I do not have to provide proof they cannot copy minds. That is the logical fallcy of negative proof.

We have no details on what abilities or limitations are of the particular technology used for the Necron mind engrams so you cannot conclude arbitrarily that moving means being able to copy, or being able to copy and be put into multiple bodies. There needs to be actual proof.

Some scarabs are designed for combat, notably those present aboard necron starships, and they are deployed on their own, see Dead Men Walking.

Quote please.

Patterned in the shape of ancient and alien beasts of prey, Necron Tomb Stalkers are huge unliving machines; swift, tireless and relentless engines of murder that know neither pity nor remorse. Differing somewhat in scale and form, Tomb Stalkers and other similar constructs serve a function first of all to guard their masters’ sleep, eternally vigilant in their search for intruders that might disturb the dread tombs in which they slumber. Tomb Stalkers can detect the pulse of life through hundreds of metres of solid rock and use this ability to home in unerringly on their victims, employing a form of phase field to pass through inert matter as if it were water, striking without warning and leaving nothing but blood and dust in their wake.

Only encountered on the tomb worlds of the Necrons, these constructs are the fearsome guardians of their sepulchers. The stalkers have likewise been tasked for the battlefield. Their phasing capability pairs with their unerring sensor capacity to make them fearsome personnel. Given their massive size, the Tomb Stalker is capable of rending tanks to little more than shrapnel, and overwhelming all but the most immense xenos creature or demonic entity.

Again how is this any different from what I previously stated? Both these Tomb constructs are essentially security bots to stand guard and defend while their masters are inactive. Like the previous quote about Wraiths, the fact that a role has been found for them in battle doesn't change their primary function, which was as a security bot not that of a frontline combat force. A security guard might carry a gun but that doesn't mean they are the same as a frontline soldier even though both have the ability to kill others.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents them making as many Tomb Stalkers (either type) as they desire. If they had to, and had the time and resources, they could make and deploy them by the billion, given the ease of production in Hand of Corruption.

Again which has nothing to do with actual Necron combat potential. I am not sure whether you are getting the difference. I am referring to Necrons as in literally Necrons, not Necrons the faction. Necron combat potential is capped by however many Necrons there are in existence. We never see any new "baby" Necrons or copies of existing Necrons. The actual minds in Necrons all appear to be derived from ancient Necrontyr minds, and there don't seem to be any multiple copies.

The faction's combat potential can be expanded sure with new constructs like Spyders and Wraiths and so on. But I was referring to Necrons, as in those entities that are downloaded Necrontyr minds in metal bodies.

The compulsion code affecting the nemesor is said to be the same code affecting the others. He is able to resist it better than them; the same thing, IE the hundreds of light years, thing, is happening to them.

The bit about the link being re-established occurs after the others have already self-destructed. The sequence of events here is important. The other Necrons are shown being phased out and ending up in a nowhere space because the links haven't been re-established, or they have been shown to self-destruct. The Necron nemesor examines himself and then sees the link is re-established on a distant world. It doesn't say anything about the previous Immortals for example going there.

[Iracundus]

Asserting the Necrons have an ability that is never shown (i.e. the copying of minds) is analogous to someone claiming TA forces have abilities that are never shown or hyperbolic leaps from existing capabilities. Using the existence of an honor code as the reason why they never do so but still saying they are capable of doing so is fallacious reasoning. It would be as if someone tried to claim an Arm commander could blow up the entire planet with one shot but refrains from doing so because of their honor code. The ability to actually do so has to be proven first.

[JointStrikeFighter]

You aren't the only one who read that passage as many neurons being permanently killed

[NecronLord]

As explained above, triggering of self-destruct is when phasing out is not possible,

Is illogical in the context of the source. They were winning until that point. Not only winning, but massacring their opponents. This is why the more self aware ones, like the lychguard, wanted to remain. The only way that source makes any internal sense is if they were going to survive, or that the necron dead man switch is set to destroy them even in circumstances where it is mindblowingly stupid to do so; an emergency recall is one thing, a 'the mothership has blown up so we must all blow up too' is another.

The bit about the link being re-established occurs after the others have already self-destructed.

They are also continuing to self destruct after that.

The sequence of events here is important.

They are also continuing to self destruct after that.

The other Necrons are shown being phased out and ending up in a nowhere space because the links haven't been re-established, or they have been shown to self-destruct. The Necron nemesor examines himself and then sees the link is re-established on a distant world. It doesn't say anything about the previous Immortals for example going there.

Why would it, it's from his perspective.

The faction's combat potential can be expanded sure with new constructs like Spyders and Wraiths and so on. But I was referring to Necrons, as in those entities that are downloaded Necrontyr minds in metal bodies.

That combat potential can in fact be expanded infinitely, as far as we are aware. Whether or not they can make new necrons is consequently not proof in any way that they are doomed to lose in a battle of attrition. They do in fact have access to several types of very fast produced units.

[NecronLord]

Asserting the Necrons have an ability that is never shown (i.e. the copying of minds)

Except that ability is shown. They can put minds of irreparable necrons into new bodies as mentioned in the codex quote helpfully highlighted in red before. That means the machinery to make a new body, and to imprint an existing mind into it, exists.

I'll repeat that.

We have "seen" them take the mind of one necron and imprint it onto another new, blank one. The ability of Trazyn to either move his conciousness also inherently demonstrates an ability to copy, any digital data movement process is in fact, copying, for part of the action. (If he can merely control other bodies by remote, on the other hand, it demonstrates another workaround for any population limit.)

What you are saying it that there must be something technological that prevents them doing this to simply duplicate existing necrons, even though we have no actual source indicating an inability to do so, one possibly indicating an ability to do so (The Skopios Incident, the original fluff intro to the Elysian Drop Troops in the Armageddon world campaign website):

The two surviving companies made steady progress across Skopios, working their way towards the main factory complexes at its northern pole. It was Captain Schultz of the 3rd Recce Company who first called in an amazing discovery. The production lines had been completely altered, transformed into something completely unrecognisable to the Naval Techpriests accompanying the Guardsmen. They were producing what at first seemed to be statues of skeletal humans, but on closer inspection the Techpriests concluded that the factories were making artificial warriors! It seemed none of them were active yet, but it was only a matter of time before there would be thousands of the warriors ready. Prinz ordered the Recce Companies to locate the control centre and shut down the whole facility, and they were tocall for help the moment they ran into trouble.

In it, the necrons were made using hijacked and transformed Imperial manufacturing equipment. Yes, they are necrons, a creature that may be a C'tan (this was in fact, prior to the old necron codex, but after Deus Ex Machina so it may or may not be written with the concept of the C'tan well developed, or it may be just envisioned as a special necron), or some kind of necron lord, was making them.

Those necrons were produced without more than one other necron being around; while it is dated, this source is canon, and the capacity consequently exists, though perhaps only in the hands of an unknown creature. If you insist I will re-post the full story, as it is hard to come by now, or you can read it on The Wayback Machine

It may be that the necrons don't do this for a cultural reason, it may be that they don't want to have to try and divide up their stuff among the lord class, or it may (and this is the big one, given that most stories have them sitting atop thousands of un-used necrons) be that they have simply never been in a situation where mass manufacturing is required, as they have many, many necrons in storage.

[Iracundus]

Is illogical in the context of the source. They were winning until that point. Not only winning, but massacring their opponents. This is why the more self aware ones, like the lychguard, wanted to remain. The only way that source makes any internal sense is if they were going to survive, or that the necron dead man switch is set to destroy them even in circumstances where it is mindblowingly stupid to do so; an emergency recall is one thing, a 'the mothership has blown up so we must all blow up too' is another.

It doesn't matter what the Necrons were doing before. The issue was the system was made to malfunction with the cut link. There was no valid destination that could be found and the dead man switch system was set up to trigger either teleportation, or failing that destroy itself. Teleporting to a nowhere space certainly doesn't count as a successful phase out by any definition. The fact of being made to recall or self destruct when they were originally winning explains perfectly the Necron general's frustration and why the higher Necrons wanted to remain. It also explains why the Necron general was so insistent he would not fall, during the first part before the re-establishment of a valid destination. There is no need to fear or be angry about the prospect of falling if what he was facing a simple recall instead of a system gone wrong that was threatening to either destroy him or send him to a void, amounting to essentially exile from the normal universe. That is what makes perfect internal sense. You are reading that quote as if the system were functioning as originally intended, such as when the actual Necron is hit and physically disabled and thus triggering that specific Necron's dead man switch, but it wasn't. The quote is showing a novel situation where the humans have pulled some sort of "save the day" last minute maneuver that causes the recall system to trigger and also for the destination link to be severed.

It is "link to home base is cut, the automatic dead-man switch tries to trigger a teleport, but no valid destination is found, so given failed phase out, self destruct instead." You have repeatedly ignored what it says in the Codex that when phase out fails then a Necron self-destructs. You are trying to claim that it would be illogical to self-destruct resulting in death when the goal is to prevent death by phasing them out to a base. But what is illogical is to assume that phase out never fails, or that when it is impossible to teleport the physical body, that somehow teleportation of the mind should proceed just fine. The Codex itself shows this possibility of phase out failing, meaning the system's capabilities are not perfect no matter what the stated intent is.

They are also continuing to self destruct after that.

Quote that please as well, because as the Codex itself states, the act of teleportation and the act of self-destruction visually look similar, so I wouldn't be surprised if one is being mistaken for another.

Why would it, it's from his perspective.

If it is not said, or later shown that those same Immortals end up at that tomb world or are still existing, then you cannot claim that they went there. The absence of any statement showing they go there or end up there doesn't mean they do.

That combat potential can in fact be expanded infinitely, as far as we are aware. Whether or not they can make new necrons is consequently not proof in any way that they are doomed to lose in a battle of attrition. They do in fact have access to several types of very fast produced units.

Actually, NO we are not aware that the Necron (i.e. actual Necrons, not Necron faction) combat potential can be expanded infinitely because you have yet to show they can copy minds. Simply stating they can is not proof. You haven't produced any quotes showing the creation of new Necron minds or the duplication of existing ones. You cannot arbitrarily take the ability of one specific character to move his mind around to be synonymous with the ability to copy minds ad infinitum. Those two are not necessarily identical abilities. If you are trying to claim they are, you have to show that they are in fact identical. Until the Necron population can be shown to be uncapped, their combat potential has to by definition also be capped and limited to the Necron population numbers.

It doesn't matter if they have fast produced Spyders or Scarabs or what not. Again that is not the issue that is being discussed. In a discussion about apples, talking about the ability to grow oranges in a quick fashion is not relevant.

We have "seen" them take the mind of one necron and imprint it onto another new, blank one. The ability of Trazyn to either move his conciousness also inherently demonstrates an ability to copy, any digital data movement process is in fact, copying, for part of the action. (If he can merely control other bodies by remote, on the other hand, it demonstrates another workaround for any population limit.)

I suggest you read carefully again the Trazyn entry. It shows no such control of bodies by remote. It only shows that some other Necrons have been prepared as possible surrogate bodies, some without their knowledge. That is like having hacked backdoor access to their system. However Trazyn is never shown controlling them like a puppet.

Where have we seen any such taking of the mind of a Necron and imprinting onto a blank one? That certainly isn't what is described in the Trazyn entry. If you are referring to something else, please quote that.

What you are saying it that there must be something technological that prevents them doing this to simply duplicate existing necrons, even though we have no actual source indicating an inability to do so, one possibly indicating an ability to do so (The Skopios Incident, the original fluff intro to the Elysian Drop Troops in the Armageddon world campaign website):

The part from that Armageddon website is also several editions in the past, when the background for the Necrons was much different and they were little more than Terminator style manufactured robots, rather than Necrontyr downloaded into metal bodies. The old background has been contradicted by the newer background and therefore is retconned in much the same way that now C'tan are now really C'tan shards (and always have been by retcon).

I am not saying there must be something technological that prevents them from simply duplicating. The burden of positive proof means you have to show they CAN do so, that their technology allows for this. You are trying in an indirect fashion to ask for negative proof, to show they CANNOT do so and if that cannot be shown that therefore they can. That is a logical fallacy. There are an infinity of things that cannot be shown to NOT be true, yet we do not function and act as if they must be true until shown otherwise. If you are trying to show Necrons can duplicate minds, show they can through positive proof, not by trying to demand others show a reason why they CANNOT.

[Iracundus]

You aren't the only one who read that passage as many neurons being permanently killed

Good to see that the quote says the same to the same thing to others as well.

Regarding the Skopios Incident, as mentioned above, that is old now outdated and retconned background. The Necrons then were not shown to be using nanotech to make things, whereas now in the Scarab entry it is shown the scarabs are used to gather energy and this used to make new Necron tech like Scarabs and such. Back then they did not have a Codex and were still in theme more like Terminators rather than the current iteration, which is more like Cylons (downloaded personalities into durable bodies). Citing that now retconned background doesn't show proof of new Necrons anymore than citing even older background about a half-Eldar Ultramarine Librarian means there is currently a half-Eldar Space Marine Librarian. The whole thing about retcon is that it is retroactive as well, so that old background becomes "never was true" within the context of the fictional universe. There never was a half-Eldar Space Marine Librarian, and there never was a Skopios Incident, at least in the exact fashion described. Incidentally too, the incident is described from a fallible in-universe perspective, which means the conclusion they draw could be entirely wrong anyway.

[NecronLord]

The piece about them continuing to be self destructed is in the last paragraph of the bit I quoted. But this is getting repetitive. I'll just focus on the crux of it.

The part from that Armageddon website is also several editions in the past, when the background for the Necrons was much different and they were little more than Terminator style manufactured robots, rather than Necrontyr downloaded into metal bodies. The old background has been contradicted by the newer background and therefore is retconned in much the same way that now C'tan are now really C'tan shards (and always have been by retcon).

That was never the background. You are completely and absolutely one hundred percent flat dead wrong. I no longer have the original 2nd edition White Dwarf, but if you require, I should still have the second necron white dwarf list (bought a new copy of the relevant white dwarf at black library live this year, it's #180 something if I recall), with their background in it, and I certainly have the list that immediately post-dated that one. You If required I will scan it some time next week when I have time to retrieve it.

Even chaos androids, which you may be thinking of, had a vastly different background to what you seem to be imagining.

I am not saying there must be something technological that prevents them from simply duplicating. The burden of positive proof means you have to show they CAN do so, that their technology allows for this. You are trying in an indirect fashion to ask for negative proof, to show they CANNOT do so and if that cannot be shown that therefore they can.

Incorrect, they are described as digital, memory engrams, and similar things. Any digital move is a digital copy - please learn how movement of data is executed in a computer.

In any case, by showing a direct quote showing manufacture, I have proven that it is possible to create new necrons. You must now provide solid retcon in the form of a direct contradiction of that specific story - IE a declaration in a canonical source of some person who has reasonable authority to know such a thing, IE, a necron, that they are not able to do so, I'll also accept a reliably sourced statement in print by a senior Games Workshop studio employee - to demonstrate that it's not canonical.

You say there is a retcon of this ability to manufacture; now the burden of proof rests upon you to provide evidence of your claim that that piece has been declared non-canonical by the owners of the intellectual property.

Good look with that: Even squats are still canonical, in that Games Workshop still sells a product that says they once existed. They merely added to the story of the squats a story element that said they'd been effectively wiped out by the tyranids later on.

[NecronLord]

Regarding the Skopios Incident, as mentioned above, that is old now outdated and retconned background.

Show statement indicating the retcon.

The Necrons then were not shown to be using nanotech to make things, whereas now in the Scarab entry it is shown the scarabs are used to gather energy and this used to make new Necron tech like Scarabs and such.

Err, nanotech, while mentioned, is not what you're thinking of, scarabs in the new edition operate on mass-energy conversion of some kind, something entirely different.

Back then they did not have a Codex and were still in theme more like Terminators

Have you actually fucking read the original background? Do you own the books and magazines? I'd like a yes or no on that please. Have you read the original sources?

[Iracundus]

That was never the background. You are completely and absolutely one hundred percent flat dead wrong. I no longer have the original 2nd edition White Dwarf, but if you require, I should still have the second necron white dwarf list (bought a new copy of the relevant white dwarf at black library live this year 180 something if I recall), with their background in it, and I certainly have the list that immediately post-dated that one. You If required I will scan it some time next week when I have time to retrieve it.

I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. There were more Terminator like references from the beginning if you actually read the old original background. The original Sanctuary 101 battle report had a Necron striding from the flames of its destroyed Destroyer vehicle (back when they were separate vehicles), like a certain scene from the Terminator movies. The ability to repair was called "We'll be back", in a not so subtle nod to the films. They were mechanical humanoids and the remains of the Necrontyr, but there was no creating of whole pieces of tech from magical nanotech or energy. Those abilities were only shown subsequently, and so under the old paradigm, a Terminator like manufacturing assembly line would have been consistent, but now no longer is. They are now space undead, space Egyptian/Tomb Kings. Before they still had that theme but there were also these thematic nods to the Terminator franchise.

Anyway, if you have quotable evidence, I can wait for when you can access it.

By showing a direct quote showing manufacture, I have proven that it is possible to create new necrons. You must now provide solid retcon in the form of a direct contradiction of that specific story - IE a declaration in a canonical source of some person who has reasonable authority to know such a thing, IE, a necron, that they are not able to do so, I'll also accept a reliably sourced statement in print by a senior Games Workshop studio employee - to demonstrate that it's not canonical.

The retcon of the half-Eldar Space Marine Librarian wasn't explicit. There is no direct piece saying there are no half-Eldar Ultramarine Space Marine Librarians or that that specific piece of information is now non-canonical. However the background has shifted to show the impossibility of half-Eldar. If there are no half-Eldar, there can be no half-Eldar Space Marine Librarians. Ergo the piece showing so is retconned.

The Skopios Incident report is an in-universe report based on the conclusions of in-universe characters and hence is fallible.

Necrons are now shown manufacturing their stuff out of nanotech. There is no need for conventional manufacturing assembly lines and aside from this old Skopios Incident (whose canonicity is debateable), there are no other examples of Necron technology being made in such fashion.

Good look with that: Even squats are still canonical, in that Games Workshop still sells a product that says they once existed. They merely added to the story of the squats a story element that said they'd been effectively wiped out by the tyranids later on.

Retcons do not have to involve complete wiping out of existence. GW retconned everything about the Squats past the point of their supposed wiping out. However even that claim of their total wiping out is debateable since that too comes from the perspective of an in-universe source. The foreword of the novel Draco, formerly the novel Inquisitor, is written as if it were a 40K scribe commenting. The records of the Imperium are fallible.

Anyway, there still is a remnant nod to the old Terminator themes in the new Necron Codex on p. 16, under the "Empire of the Severed" heading. It describes a tomb complex master control program taking charge of Necron bodies, where the original memory engrams were totally destroyed (notice no recall of mind to anywhere else?). The program is described as going Skynet, titling itself the Sarkoni Emperor, and starting to conquer other worlds, including other Necron worlds, wiping the minds of the Necrons (again no recall of mind anywhere else) and taking control of their bodies. Even supposing hypothetically the Skopios Incident were not retconned, the existence of Necron bodies without Necron minds fighting is really just the existence of a robot. The Skopios Incident describes production of bodies, not necessarily Necron minds, and as shown by the Codex, it is possible to get Necron bodies to function without a Necron mind.

However, the Sarkoni Emperor example also is noteworthy because there is no mention of it manufacturing. It is depicted as going to conquer other Necron worlds to wipe the minds and take over their bodies in order to grow its forces.

[NecronLord]

You claim that they were not necrontyr, just robots, this is wrong, this was in their background from day one. Your argument that the Skopios incident contradicts canon is predicated on your extremely flawed understanding of past necron canon. If anything, with the removal of the C'tan and the return to rebuilding the species in biological form and an emphasis on vivisection of captives as a motivation, the new necrons now more closely resemble the ones of of the pre-codex period in which the Skopios incident was written.

Regarding the Empire of the Severed: Yes, I know. Reprogramming necrons, or wiping their minds, doesn't indicate an inability to manufacture; it is presumably far easier to get new war materiel by taking over nearby tomb worlds (especially if you catch them napping) pre-built than setting up the entire industry needed to make new necrons in bulk.

And yes, it might be a robot, what's your point. At this point your argument about this somehow indicating a weakness to attrition for the necrons is out the window; we've seen them make scarabs, tomb stalkers, necron infantry, and presumably they make vehicles.

You have no proof that the Skopios incident is non-canon, do you?

[Iracundus]

You claim that they were not necrontyr, just robots, this is wrong, this was in their background from day one. Your argument that the Skopios incident contradicts canon is predicated on your extremely flawed understanding of past necron canon. If anything, with the removal of the C'tan and the return to rebuilding the species in biological form and an emphasis on vivisection of captives as a motivation, the new necrons now more closely resemble the ones of of the pre-codex period in which the Skopios incident was written.

And as I said, you seem to have misinterpreted what I meant. Prior to their first full Codex, there was very little true background on the Necrons other than they were mysterious remnants of an ancient vanished civilization, and that some seemed to wear robes and were leaders. If I have misstated that originally, then I have also clarified in my previous post what I meant about the thematic nods to the Terminator franchise, and also the complete lack of any conventional manufacturing other than that one incident you are relying on. The old Necron Codex even portrays a Necron Warrior being reconstructed from the pool of molten metal it had been reduced to. Such feats are inconsistent with the requirement of being manufactured in a factory style arrangement.

Regarding the Empire of the Severed: Yes, I know. Reprogramming necrons, or wiping their minds, doesn't indicate an inability to manufacture; it is presumably far easier to get new war materiel by taking over nearby tomb worlds (especially if you catch them napping) pre-built than setting up the entire industry needed to make new necrons in bulk.

It does show permanent destruction of Necron minds. No recall link saved them, even if its purpose was to prevent them ever dying. It means Necron minds can be permanently destroyed and they are not literally immortal, just very resistant to death.

And yes, it might be a robot, what's your point. At this point your argument about this somehow indicating a weakness to attrition for the necrons is out the window; we've seen them make scarabs, tomb stalkers, necron infantry, and presumably they make vehicles.

It's not a Necron anymore then. It's a robot being controlled like a puppet by the tomb AI program.

Ok, to put this in a more clear point form:

1. There are examples given of permanent death of the Necron mind, with no saving of the mind by recall. There is self-destruction described in the Codex when phase out fails. Why then this presupposition that somehow when all goes wrong, the mind alone, independent of the body, should be saved? Nothing of the sort happened in the Sarkoni examples.

2. The mind wiped Necron bodies end up being controlled by the rogue AI program. However the Sarkoni example is shown as exceptional, an outlier. We have no examples of Necron minds controlling other Necrons remotely. The capabilities of the AI program do not have to match those of the Necron mind, so what the former can do is no indicator of the possibility of the latter doing so.

3. The scenario was about the fight against a Necron tomb world. No indication was given of any particular special conditions, so the existence of a rogue program controlling Necron bodies in the absence of Necron minds cannot be taken to hold true. All the standard Necron Warriors as shown in their Codex entry are shown as being inhabited by the minds of ancient Necrontyr commoners. If Necron minds can be destroyed (and they have shown in point 1 to be able to be destroyed), then it is possible however unlikely that the minds of these Necrons can also be destroyed. If such were to happen, is there any indication whatsoever that there would still be Necron bodies being active without an inhabiting Necron mind?

The behavior and capabilties of a rogue tomb master program cannot be taken as evidence of the capabilities of a non-rogue program. As described in the Codex for example, a non-rogue master program surrenders power to the Necron Lord when it is revived.

You have no proof that the Skopios incident is non-canon, do you?

I have already pointed out the weakness of the source since it is in-universe. In-universe sources are inherently unreliable. See the bit in the old Necron Codex about Necron Gauss weaponry being proved by the humans to be impossible, yet the Necrons seem to have no problems with using such weapons. The conclusions of Tech-Priests are always suspect.

[NecronLord]

You have no proof that the Skopios incident is non-canon, do you?

I have already pointed out the weakness of the source since it is in-universe. In-universe sources are inherently unreliable. See the bit in the old Necron Codex about Necron Gauss weaponry being proved by the humans to be impossible, yet the Necrons seem to have no problems with using such weapons. The conclusions of Tech-Priests are always suspect.

Oh dear.

If you own a 3rd edition codex, please go and read the relevant page. It does not say what you think it does - I don't have one to hand, but I remember this very argument being rebutted in the past; it's a popular chinese whisper, because people say it to make necrons sound powerful. IIRC he's talking about a believed impossibility as an explanation for why the necrons do not use a physical trigger mechanism to close a circuit on their guns.

You are claiming unreliable narrator as your reason to dismiss a source; why? What directly contradicts that source? Is there any actual contradiction of that story anywhere?

[Iracundus]

If you own a 3rd edition codex, please go and read the relevant page. It does not say what you think it does - I don't have one to hand, but I remember this very argument being rebutted in the past; it's a popular chinese whisper, because people say it to make necrons sound powerful. IIRC he's talking about a believed impossibility as an explanation for why the necrons do not use a physical trigger mechanism to close a circuit on their guns.

The quote is as follows:

In regards to the postulations put forward by Magos Barrous concerning the operation of the armament carried by the Necrons known as gauss weapons, the following report examines the heretical impossibility of such weapons' operation...

The design of a gauss weapon with all its parameters kept dynamic to achieve maximum efficiency is a mathematical impossibility, as proved by Magos Barrous during the Calculometry Schism. The greatest problem encountered in gauss weapon design is devising a means to safely generate and release the power of the discharge, which runs in the multi-megawatt range. Because the power required is extremely high, even microscopic imperfections in design will generate massive energy losses. If a mechanical trigger is used to deliver the pulse, the moment the firing mechanisms come into contact, microscopic irregularities in the material will dissipate so much energy as to be vapourised. When the trigger closes, tehse vapourised surfaces and the molten metal beneath them weld together, and the trigger is thus ruined. How the weapons employed by the Necrons overcome this problem is unknown.

Assuming firing difficulties can be overcome, the final effect will be to produce a beam capable of stripping a target down to its constituent atoms extremely rapidly. Since high energy power supplies are extremely dangerous and difficult to maintain, it follows one would want to maximise efficiency in order to obtain the best possible results with the least possible energy. This also preserves the components of the weapon since most energy losses are typically dissipated as damaging heat or destructive back currents, such as encountered by plasma weapons.

p. 54-55, old Necron Codex

The opening sentence in the first paragraph outright says the function of Necron weapons is an impossibility. The above also shows it is not just a matter of manufacturing physical triggers but that a Tech Priest had actually proved keeping a gauss weapon's parameters (whatever those are is not specificed) dynamic was mathematically impossible. Are Necron gauss weapon parameters dynamic? The above source contends that if they are not, then the energy required would be much greater due to inefficiency. Necron Warriors using handheld firearms that consume ridiculously huge amounts of power to produce effects roughly comparable to the chemically propelled firearms of other races? That sounds stupidly inefficient if that is the case and diminishes the Necrons dramatically as a race if they expend so much effort for so little effect. The other alternative is that Magos Barrous was wrong in his mathematical disproof and Necron weapon parameters are dynamic, keeping energy costs down.

Given how there is no suggestion that Necrons are stupidly inefficient with their energy use, the other alternative is the more likely option. Or I suppose there is a third possibility: that even if the parameters are not dynamic, energy use can still be kept down and reasonable. However in such case, the Tech-Priests are STILL wrong about something, in this case the necessity of keeping parameters dynamic in order to keep energy costs down. The assertions and conclusions of Tech-Priests in 40K are not infallible.

You are claiming unreliable narrator as your reason to dismiss a source; why? What directly contradicts that source? Is there any actual contradiction of that story anywhere?

It is an unreliable narrator by virtue of being in-universe. By itself as the only source is hardly solid evidence. It would be like trying to convict someone in a court case based purely on anecdotal witness evidence alone. Just because someone says or believes something within the 40K universe doesn't make it true, just as a witness's testimony in court may be questioned as to its accuracy. The above parts with the Tech-Priests already demonstrate the fallibility of in-universe sources. The key term is unreliable. It may be accurate, it might not be, but lacking the perspective of an omniscient outside narrator POV, the account of any in-universe character is potentially biased or mistaken.

[Iracundus]

Also incidentally I have checked the original 3rd edition list collected in the Chapter Approved 2001 collection (p.18-23). There is not a single explicit mention of a transfer of consciousness in the entire article or list. I am not going to re-post the entire article just to show the absence of such mention, but those that can access the above source can check those pages.

The strange warriors of the ancient Necrontyr race are as threatening as they are mysterious, pre-dating Mankind, and even the Eldar, by many millions of years...
p. 18, Chapter Approved 2001

The above statement is a general statement that is open to interpretation. It doesn't demand specifically that warriors have to have downloaded personalities. Someone reading that article with no previous exposure to any other mentions about the Necrons could just as likely conclude the Necrontyr were a mechanical race from the beginning or perhaps there was a warrior caste called Necrons that fought for the Necrontyr race.

The only thing that hints of any individuality is the entry on Necron Lords:

They act as priests and officers amongst the ranks of the Necrons, garbed in crumbling cerements and carrying a Staff of Light.
p. 22, Chapter Approved 2001

The timing of this Chapter Approved collection comes after the Armageddon Codex and campaign of 2000, but before the 2002 Necron Codex, their first real Codex that really fleshed out their background and first introduced the C'tan. Before that, there was very little to say about them in terms of background except they were the mysterious metallic warriors of a very ancient civilization led by some individuals that waved a staff and wore crumbly stuff. What they really were (other than their name), what they were after, and virtually any background other than what happened to their enemies on the battlefield was all left as mysterious.

[NecronLord]

The opening sentence in the first paragraph outright says the function of Necron weapons is an impossibility. The above also shows it is not just a matter of manufacturing physical triggers but that a Tech Priest had actually proved keeping a gauss weapon's parameters (whatever those are is not specificed) dynamic was mathematically impossible. Are Necron gauss weapon parameters dynamic? The above source contends that if they are not, then the energy required would be much greater due to inefficiency. Necron Warriors using handheld firearms that consume ridiculously huge amounts of power to produce effects roughly comparable to the chemically propelled firearms of other races? That sounds stupidly inefficient if that is the case and diminishes the Necrons dramatically as a race if they expend so much effort for so little effect.

Except you know, the mechanism of a gauss weapon is ludicrously overcomplicated. Stripping molecules off layer by layer, as opposed to say, using a laser.

However in such case, the Tech-Priests are STILL wrong about something, in this case the necessity of keeping parameters dynamic in order to keep energy costs down. The assertions and conclusions of Tech-Priests in 40K are not infallible.

No, they are not, but the idea that "gauss weapons are impossible" is not what Magos Barrous was saying; merely that a gauss weapon with "all its parameters kept dynamic" could not be designed; we do not know whether he was right or wrong, but the source is substantially more complicated than "gauss weapons are impossible" which is what you were saying.

It is an unreliable narrator by virtue of being in-universe. By itself as the only source is hardly solid evidence. It would be like trying to convict someone in a court case based purely on anecdotal witness evidence alone.

Firstly, unlike in the movies, "anecdotal" evidence is not, or so I believe, automatically laughed out of real courts. And please read the page again. It's supposed to be a precis of multiple official reports:

The preferred operation style of the Elysian Drop Troops is amply demonstrated in accounts of the Skopios Incident.

I have provided my source, including a helpful link to the original. You have not disproven it, you have simply sat there and declared it non-canon based on your own flawed understanding of what's changed in necron background, the source is canon until you get me an authentic quote from a senior GW staffer, or a new source that directly contradicts it: new necrons can be made, provide this, or concede.

Also incidentally I have checked the original 3rd edition list published and collected in the Chapter Approved 2001 collection (p.18-23). There is not a single explicit mention of a transfer of consciousness in the entire article or list.

That is not the one I am talking about. Stand by.

[NecronLord]

The story of the discovery of the Necrons and some insight into their long and disturbing history can be found in WD issues 217 and 218. To summarize briefly... ‘the Necrons are a biologically dead race that was wiped out in a galaxy wide catastrophe approximately 60 million years ago. Faced with extinction the Necrons constructed metal bodies as repositories for their hyperadvanced minds. To weather the impending galactic bio-meltdown the Necrons constructed huge stasis chambers to shelter inside. They have been there ever since, resting until a such time that the galaxy was safe for them to emerge.’

The discovery of some of these stasis chambers has triggered the emergence of isolated groups of Necrons all over the galaxy. Quite what their purpose is remains something of a mystery. Necrons confine their activities to raiding and taking captives. They are known to perform grizzly biological experiments upon human prisoners. Some believe that the Necrons, possessed as they are of a vastly superior scientific knowledge, are attempting to rebuild their race in biological form.

Others hypothesise that the Necrons are no longer possessed of rational minds. Some say that millions of years of stasis has degenerated the Necrons’ electronically encoded personalities so that only crude instincts and half-remembered purposes remain to drive their metallic bodies.

That's This magazine, the army list that was current at the time. Note the similarity to the current version, in terms of necrons' motives, and their degenerated personalities.

This is as you can see, more directly referring to a fuller necron background in the previous issues in the 2nd edition, which develops the theme more fully. I no longer have access to this unfortunately, but as you can see, this directly refers to the story of the necrontyr being in the original published edition of the necrons' background.

[Iracundus]

Except you know, the mechanism of a gauss weapon is ludicrously overcomplicated. Stripping molecules off layer by layer, as opposed to say, using a laser.

Yes but to expend even more vast amounts of energy to accomplish such mediocre results by comparison makes Necrons look even more stupid if they are even more grossly inefficient. Either they have found a way to make dynamic gauss weapons, which means the human Tech-Priests were wrong, or they have found a way to reduce power costs without dynamic weapons, in which case the Tech-Priests are wrong, or the Necrons are stupidly wasteful of energy to create a weapon that performs mostly on par with that of much more primitive races.

No, they are not, but the idea that "gauss weapons are impossible" is not what Magos Barrous was saying; merely that a gauss weapon with "all its parameters kept dynamic" could not be designed; we do not know whether he was right or wrong, but the source is substantially more complicated than "gauss weapons are impossible" which is what you were saying.

It shows the Tech-Priests are either wrong about some aspect of the gauss weapons whether it be dynamic gauss weapons being impossible to design, or the necessity of having dynamic gauss weapons in order to keep power costs down, or the Necrons are crazy stupid for using ludicrously wasteful non-dynamic gauss weapons.

Firstly, unlike in the movies, "anecdotal" evidence is not, or so I believe, automatically laughed out of real courts. And please read the page again. It's supposed to be a precis of multiple official reports:

It is not automatically laughed out no, but more substantial concrete evidence is usually requested to back it up. Otherwise anyone could be convicted on the basis of "He said, she said". Anecdotal evidence and witness memories can form a part of the evidence base, but for it to form the entire evidence base makes for a very shaky case. The need is to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" and there often can be reasoning produced to doubt the total accuracy of an anecdotal report. If there is massive weight of circumstantial evidence of this sort, then perhaps, but right now there is 1 source showing construction.

I have provided my source, including a helpful link to the original. You have not disproven it, you have simply sat there and declared it non-canon based on your own flawed understanding of what's changed in necron background, the source is canon until you get me an authentic quote from a senior GW staffer, or a new source that directly contradicts it: new necrons can be made, provide this, or concede.

The source is canon only in so far as it is an in-universe report. I don't doubt the Elysians made such a report. Whether they are accurate as to what the nature of the facility was or the nature of their attackers is more debateable, because as I have stated, all in-universe sources are potentially fallible and unreliable. It is an anecdotal report of what happened to them. Also it says nothing about creation of Necron minds, only mentioning the fashioning of physical bodies. It doesn't prove anything about the ability of Necron minds to reproduce or be duplicated.

That is not the one I am talking about. Stand by.

If you are talking about the original "work in progress list" by Rick Priestley, I am aware of what it says there. Yes in that list it does mention the Necrons being the result of minds being moved into metallic bodies. That list came out in 1999 before the Chapter Approved 2001 list (there are differences and there is a lack of wargear). For your information such article is listed here: http://www.angelfire.com/games3/militar ... ecrons.pdf

I think you are caught up here trying to claim I don't know the Necron background. I am quite aware of it having been around when they first introduced it along with their promotional Necron Warrior figure that had rivets and bolts on it. I have not tried to say being downloaded personalities in bodies was never a part of the Necrons, but the space undead theme certainly was not the only theme that was operating. Look up the original WD 216 or 217 (I think there is a regional variation in the count) that has the Sanctuary 101 battle for the Terminator like theme of the metallic skeleton walking out from an inferno of flames. These Terminator themes have diminished while the space Egyptian and space undead themes have been emphasized. However as of the 2001 Chapter Approved list, GW didn't seem to feel the need to emphasize this aspect about the nature of the Necrons despite doing so in 1999.

But as of the writing of the Skopios Incident, during the 3rd War for Armageddon, these themes had not entirely disappeared, hence the description of an industrial production line of metal warriors. At the time of that writing, there had yet to be any mention of energy to matter construction of any Necron related technology.