For those who feel nuGalactica failed...

[Stark]

It's like being president. Any fan who wants to tell you what to do with your show should never be allowed to influence it.

[Scrib]

I agree. It's far more important with a show that the things happen for reasons that make sense or have meaning within the story. When you try to focus on external reasons like 'realism' or 'what the forums like', that generally hurts the artistic vision. I asked Tucker this the other day (and it's come up a lot with Connor) but I'm not sure 'we did xyz because fan pressure' ever made something better... At least not in the immediate forum reaction negative tweets way. Feedback is faster now and this can make it harder for creators to create what they want before they hear what people think of it.

In fact, I think the executive producer David Eick once talked about how they were so giddy over getting fan input on Xena that they let a lot of their suggestions bleed through into the work, at that time they didn't realise that the people who are on fan boards are the more devoted (obsessive) fans, and that they didn't represent the main viewership.

And it's much more ubiquitous nowadays, if it's more limited to the poor sods who follow you on Flitter or whatever the kids use nowadays

[Haruko]

Starbuck coming back and the other mythical stuff did not bother me at all. In fact, I was fascinated by it. However, I was expecting way too much to be done to reach interesting "resolutions," even if they were wacky as can be. The resolution that was given in the final episode made me feel that nobody ever even tried to write an ending, so somebody came up with something jokingly last minute and was shocked and appalled to have it instantly accepted and submitted. Still thinking it should have been handed to George Martin since he seems to wish so bad the ending was as much of a ride as the rest of the series was. Would keep the part with Adama and Roslin in the Raptor, though.

[jollyreaper]

It's a balancing act, isn't it? For a writer he can just fill notebooks full of ideas and work solely for his amusement. Prince is alleged to have recoded albums worth of material that he only brings out on rare occasions, most of which will never be released commercially.

Given that television is so capital-intensive, it's harder to get away with that kind of indulgence. You are caught in the balancing act of finding an audience without pandering to them. What is artistic integrity? How do you earn a living at it without being accused of selling out? Does commercialism intefere with the artistic process? What's the difference between creating a work with integrity meant to appeal to a broad audience vs making unchallenging, lowest common denominator crap? And of course one man's accessible popularizer is another man's hack. Everyone is trying to sell out and the difference between the ones who made it big and the ones who are only in it for the love is that the successful ones figured out how to sell out and the unsuccessful ones are now saying they weren't really about the money anyway. Or is it?

There does seem to be a school of thought that doing something the fans dislike has more integrity and makes for a stronger story. There can be truth for that sometimes. But it can also be the case that the fans don't like it not because it's unhappy but dramatically necessary and is really just a terrible idea I'll-conceived and poorly executed.

[Stark]

Too bad that's a false dilemma I guess?

[jollyreaper]

Once more from the peanut galley.

[Stark]

Eat shit. It's not anyone's fault but yours that you apparently think in such simpleminded terms.

Can you quote someone in this thread saying doing something 'fans dislike' intrinsically 'has more integrity'? Because its almost like nobody did.

[Batman]

Indeed nobody did, including jollyreaper. I suggest you reread that last paragraph of his more carefully.

[Stark]

You mean that school of thought he invented while throwing out apparently imponderable questions?

People are saying that listening to fans - in particular, during the creative process - and letting it change the finished product to try to 'meet' identified 'needs' is generally bad. I have no interest in his imaginary nonsense about justifying bad things by fan need or expectation.

nBSG poorly executed? Wow, thanks for the update in a thread about nBSG being poorly executed!

The only way his post could be more useless is if he answered his own imponderable 'or is it' with 'no' and then 'of course it is!'

And then '... IS WAR'.

[jollyreaper]

Eat shit.

I read your post. Isn't that suffering enough for one man?

[Stark]

I hope you finished eating shit already, cause here's some more! Eat shit.

Can you explain in real sentences that don't end with 'or is it' why a creator is 'caught in the balancing act of finding an audience without pandering to them'? As the adults have discussed, this perception of a dilemma is quite possibly driven more by the structure American industry rather than any inherent truth about 'art' or 'selling out' or 'integrity' or whatever nonsense.

Or is it?

[jollyreaper]

The only way his post could be more useless is if he answered his own imponderable 'or is it' with 'no' and then 'of course it is!'

Naw. Trying to engage in a civil, productive discussion with you, that is the definition of useless.

[Stark]

That's pretty funny since everyone was doing fine until you shat out a giant turd. Slap yourself on the back more, though.

And y'know if you get a chance it'd be nice if you responded with actual content.

Or would it?

[jollyreaper]

I hope you finished eating shit already, cause here's some more! Eat shit.

Can you explain in real sentences that don't end with 'or is it' why a creator is 'caught in the balancing act of finding an audience without pandering to them'? As the adults have discussed, this perception of a dilemma is quite possibly driven more by the structure American industry rather than any inherent truth about 'art' or 'selling out' or 'integrity' or whatever nonsense.

Or is it?

It doesn't matter what point I make, you'll take the opposite side. It's in your nature. And is also a useless endeavor.

[Stark]

Concession... accepted.

Or is it?

I hope others can recognise that its possible to pander and find an audience, or find no audience while not pandering, so your simpleminded examination of art or the creative process is not useful and there are other factors which are arguably more important. Its just sad your only response is 'wah wah you mean'.

[Channel72]

There's no artistic rule or something that says fan-pandering automatically equals shitty drama. It's just that, in practice, this usually seems to be the case. The Star Wars Prequels pandered to fans extensively by making everyone in the entire Universe related to Boba Fett somehow, and Season-4 of Star Trek: Enterprise pandered to fans with rapid-fire TOS references, culminating with some episode where the characters were literally wearing TOS uniforms and walking around on the old 1960s sets. Both of these were fun to watch at the time, to a certain extent, but they pretty much suck ass also. I guess it's hard to pander to fans without coming off like a stupid fan-fiction writing hack. Once a work of fiction achieves enough success and mainstream fame to actually have a significant fanbase, the loudest members of that fanbase tend to demand more of the same. So giving them what they want often results in recycled, uninspired bullshit based on older material.

[Stark]

Right, which is what everyone was already talking about. Or was it?

As I've stated before, I think this is a problem related to the way stuff is funded in America. It's very important to meet expectations and deliver what people want, and rapid communication with fans and feedback cycles often mean there's no time to think about the feedback before it is responded to. I mean, if what fans SAID they wanted and THOUGHT they wanted was always right, there'd be no problem. The problem is people forget theyre talking to a very small set of viewers and that people already liked what they were doing.

Creators are just people, and if you give em a channel to devoted fans I think it's human nature that it will distort their perspective. However, 'fan service' is not intrinsically bad, especially if it's a part of the original concept or vision. It's when you change from interesting drama with layers and themes to fan service you might see problems.

[Scrib]

Starbuck coming back and the other mythical stuff did not bother me at all. In fact, I was fascinated by it. However, I was expecting way too much to be done to reach interesting "resolutions," even if they were wacky as can be. The resolution that was given in the final episode made me feel that nobody ever even tried to write an ending, so somebody came up with something jokingly last minute and was shocked and appalled to have it instantly accepted and submitted. Still thinking it should have been handed to George Martin since he seems to wish so bad the ending was as much of a ride as the rest of the series was. Would keep the part with Adama and Roslin in the Raptor, though.

No,this is literally what happened. I listened to Moore's last podcast and he says that they didn't have it until the final moments. He couldn't pin it down so he went off and wrote something last minute and everyone (supposedly) loved it.

A terrible place to get corralled into.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

How the hell does that happen? I can't imagine writing for a living, sitting in a room full of writers, and not having some kind of plan or consensus for what happens next.

[Batman]

That presupposes you know whom or what you'd be writing for next job. We're not talking career novelists, we're talking TV writers. While I suspect I don't know any more about that than you do (i.e. essentially nothing) I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the writers under discussion were occasionally asked to come up with a script on very short notice, and that's ignoring them having to rewrite due to network interference.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Next job? We're not talking about freelancers. You think the show's main writers and creators would have a stake in knowing where the hell they want the show to go.

I've written for a publication before, nothing with anywhere near the planned longevity or the financial backing of a TV show, and it was quite common for editors to discuss long range goals and articles for issues down the road. I can't imagine a professional screenwriter in a guild would do less, unless he or she is a lazy fool.

[Batman]

I was obviously mistaken then.

[Scrib]

How the hell does that happen? I can't imagine writing for a living, sitting in a room full of writers, and not having some kind of plan or consensus for what happens next.

As far as I can tell this was a deliberate decision. Moore comes from Star Trek so he probably thought that he could get away with it-just going off my experience with Stargate-, and to an extent he could have. First season was mostly a bunch of standalone episodes and character-centric plots so the whole myth arc wasn't of overwhelming significance. And they had an out: The people with the visions were crazy. So I doubt that anyone was worried. Then most of season 2 was the same way...then they blew the lid off it and never put it back. After that point the problem was a tumor that they had to deal with.

[ray245]

It's kinda sad when Ron Moore and co said they want to ground the new Battlestar series in a more realistic manner by avoiding all the aliens and mystical forces, but ended up including all those elements in their show anyway.

I would much rather watch a campy but fun tv series than one that is gritty and boring.

[Covenant]

I agree that pandering to the fans and their expectations is entirely fine, admirable even, when your goal is to entertain your fans. There can be a whole range of experiences, from challenging expectations and daring the audience to grow, to the more sedate "give them what they want in a way they didn't think you could do," and those are all enjoyable experiences.

Galactica lost me around... I don't know... I basically a bit after they got off the planet, but it never REALLY lost me except for here and there. I could tell the wheels were coming off in parts of season 2, but I honestly never hated the experience, even the detestable end, because even the really terrible end had moments I enjoyed. It was a pretty good show with pretty good acting and pretty good plot points, but it had low points that dragged it down, and unfortunately a few of those low points stuck around. The mysticism angle really stuck in a lot of people's minds as a bad, unexplained plot thing that never got resolved, and I was one of those people.

I was open to several explanations, but the way it ended seemed way too silly, and I don't care if they explain it in another series or something it just felt annoying. I also didn't really enjoy the idea that was eventually behind the Skinjobs. I never hated it, because it was always interesting even if it was not what I wanted, and I also felt the same way about Earth. I kinda liked the idea he was lying to them about Earth to keep people together, but actually finding it... I don't know. It was frustrating. The show frustrated me. But I never felt like it was a total waste of time, and it had enough high points for me to think back fondly on it.

I think they could have saved the shows reputation a little if the ending had done a slightly better job, or if things had not relied so much on writer's fiat disguised as magical mystic presences, but it never pushed me SO FAR that I fell out of my ability to enjoy it overall. The last third may have been a train-wreck but at least it ended better than some of my other favorite shows.