Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

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brianeyci
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Post by brianeyci »

Robert Walper wrote:A better question is if B5 telepaths could hope to compete against a artificial intelligence that monitors and controls billions of individual minds at once.
The problem with that hypothesis is, we know that the "neutral transciever" is responsible for a person hearing the thoughts of the collective, so it is some sort of signal rather than telepathy. Although, Picard still hears the voice of the Borg despite having all his implants removed (is this canon?)

If the voice of the Borg is telepathic, then the Shadows have a problem.

Brian
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Post by Robert Walper »

brianeyci wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:A better question is if B5 telepaths could hope to compete against a artificial intelligence that monitors and controls billions of individual minds at once.
The problem with that hypothesis is, we know that the "neutral transciever" is responsible for a person hearing the thoughts of the collective, so it is some sort of signal rather than telepathy. Although, Picard still hears the voice of the Borg despite having all his implants removed (is this canon?)

If the voice of the Borg is telepathic, then the Shadows have a problem.

Brian
I wasn't suggesting the Borg hive mind is telepathic. Merely that the Collective's control is far grander in scale and capabilities.

I would point out in STVOY "Unity", a small group mind was able to take control of Chakotay's mind at a distance of many thousands of kilometers(possibly alot more) without him having any implants. This was just a residual effect from him being temporarily linked by a non invasive neural transciever.
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Post by NecronLord »

brianeyci wrote:Although, Picard still hears the voice of the Borg despite having all his implants removed (is this canon?)
It's not even fanon. It's entirely bull. They got the big ones out, but the internal ones are still there. I have no idea where you got that from in fact. Look at Seven of Nine for example...
BoBW Part 2 wrote: Life signs are stable... the DNA
around the microcircuit fiber
implants is returning to normal...
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Post by Robert Walper »

NecronLord wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Although, Picard still hears the voice of the Borg despite having all his implants removed (is this canon?)
It's not even fanon. It's entirely bull. They got the big ones out, but the internal ones are still there. I have no idea where you got that from in fact. Look at Seven of Nine for example...
BoBW Part 2 wrote: Life signs are stable... the DNA
around the microcircuit fiber
implants is returning to normal...
Selectively quoting what's said to push your point? Pretty dishonest NecronLord.
The parts you conveniently left out wrote: BEVERLY: Life signs are stable... the DNA around the microcircuit fiber implants is returning to normal...
TROI: How do you feel?
PICARD: Almost human. With a bit of a headache...
BEVERLY: We'll get you to Sickbay...We won't have any trouble getting these implants out now.
Seven of Nine was part of the Borg Collective for decades and is dependent upon many of her implants to survive. Picard was only part of the Collective for, at most, a couple of days and was in no way dependent upon them to survive.

Furthermore, STVOY "Unimatrix Zero" proved with not one, but three individuals(Janeway, Tuvok, Torres) that short term assimilation does not create dependency upon Borg implants and they can all be removed easily.

And my earlier example from STVOY "Unity" proves without a doubt implants are not required to hear a Collective, or even be controlled by one.
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Post by Lost Soal »

brianeyci wrote:What I'm really surprised of is that nobody has done the following to calculate a yield for photon torpedoes.

Take this picture,


and use the fact that we know exactly how large a Borg cube is and how far away the Enterprise is, use 97% empty space and iron, and calculate a yield for photorps. I tried finding it in the archives, I thought this would have been done long ago, but either my search skills suck or it doesn't exist.

Brian
You can't use that to calculate Photon torpedoe yield because they don't use photon torpedoes. The damage is caused by three phaser blasts of less than a second duration per shot
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Post by NecronLord »

Not only does your quote come before mine, meaning Crusher could, like all those other Trek characters, Spock, Data et al not be infallible (FUCKING SHOCK HORROR!) she was fairly obviously talking about the big huge implants... arm apparatus. False eye etc. She didn't remove all the internal nervous system connections, she just left them there because they were inactive. Fact.

What you are saying is that the borg psycically reached out into Picard's brain and delivered to him the data needed to destroy their cube in First Contact. Even by the fucking moronic standards of the Borg, that is dumb.
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Post by NecronLord »

And no. I won't take your word about a Voyager episdoe I've not seen, because you are a Dishonest Borg Fan-Whore.
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Post by harbringer »

Brian <sigh> why do you refuse to see what I am saying to you.

The nebula was a trick because they had no other reason to be there other than to hide their presence.

It doesn't matter that the cutter beam might(and I think we should all say might) be 30TW if you have 1500000 shadow ships facing 3 borg cubes. Prove to us the borg wont be vulnerable to this. We know that they use complex tactics and strategems so prove they can't sucker the borg into doing just this?.

If the Borg cannot defeat orbital defenses they have no raw materials to work with to create drones we have no idea if the materials to make borg ships are present in this ALTERNATE universe.

A power transformer can screw up a transporter lock certain metals can do this also prove it can work.

The actual scenario stated the OR wanted to WIPE OUT THE FLAMING BORG. At least try asking why we keep insisting on this.

ST to my knowledge do not have extensive ECM like B5 or SW so prove that they do and can cope with it or conversely dont and they possibly can't.

What if OMG the OR decide the best way to PROTECT their universe is to kill all the borg in the ST universe?.
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Post by Robert Walper »

NecronLord wrote:Not only does your quote come before mine, meaning Crusher could, like all those other Trek characters, Spock, Data et al not be infallible (FUCKING SHOCK HORROR!)
The good old reliable Trek stupidity arguement. Never saw this one coming. :roll: Think I'll start ignoring it from now on. It's used for no other purpose than to dismiss evidence to support your own views.
she was fairly obviously talking about the big huge implants... arm apparatus.
I suggest you look up the term "implant". His arm apparatus was not a implant, it was simply strapped on.
False eye etc.
He didn't have a false eye. :roll: Not that this is particularily important, but it nicely illustrates you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
She didn't remove all the internal nervous system connections, she just left them there because they were inactive. Fact.
Prove it. She said she was removing the implants. She had analysed him extensively and determined she could do it. The fact you don't like this is irrelevent.
What you are saying is that the borg psycically reached out into Picard's brain and delivered to him the data needed to destroy their cube in First Contact. Even by the fucking moronic standards of the Borg, that is dumb.
Not at all. Merely that his brain is still capable of picking up sporadic Borg signals. You know, like Chakotay did despite not having any implants. He could hear the Collective and even be controlled despite no implants. He's never been assimilated either.
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Post by Robert Walper »

NecronLord wrote:And no. I won't take your word about a Voyager episdoe I've not seen, because you are a Dishonest Borg Fan-Whore.
Concession accepted. You doubt my assertions, check with someone else who has seen it. Until then, my evidence stands and you cannot refute it.

I'll even be nice and help you check. Episodes in question: STTNG "Best of Both Worlds", STVOY "Unity"
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Post by NecronLord »

Robert Walper wrote: The good old reliable Trek stupidity arguement. Never saw this one coming. :roll: Think I'll start ignoring it from now on. It's used for no other purpose than to dismiss evidence to support your own views.
Good for you.

I suggest you look up the term "implant". His arm apparatus was not a implant, it was simply strapped on.
It was hard linked to his nervous system. That makes it an implant

He didn't have a false eye. :roll: Not that this is particularily important, but it nicely illustrates you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
So the scene of him having his eye drilled out in First Contact was just him hallucinating? More to the point, half his face was altered. So I don't recall exactly which bits were removed and altered. Your point? Replace false eye with face plate.

Prove it. She said she was removing the implants. She had analysed him extensively and determined she could do it. The fact you don't like this is irrelevent.
And in the next scene she says they're still there.

Not at all. Merely that his brain is still capable of picking up sporadic Borg signals.
These borg signals mysteriously fly through the ehter without needing pickup apparatus now?

You know, like Chakotay did despite not having any implants. He could hear the Collective and even be controlled despite no implants. He's never been assimilated either.
What did I say about not taking your word for things I've not seen you little shit?
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Post by NecronLord »

Robert Walper wrote:Concession accepted. You doubt my assertions, check with someone else who has seen it. Until then, my evidence stands and you cannot refute it.
Shut your dried-shit encrusted mouth. You've been proven to be dishonest on this very topic many times before. Your credibility is worse than that of "St Ralph the Liar."
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Post by Robert Walper »

NecronLord wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: You know, like Chakotay did despite not having any implants. He could hear the Collective and even be controlled despite no implants. He's never been assimilated either.
What did I say about not taking your word for things I've not seen you little shit?
Again, concession accepted.
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Post by NecronLord »

Robert Walper wrote:Again, concession accepted.
"Oooh Concession Accepted!"

What next, will you show me your diploma from S. Hitty Ph.D's school of debating for toddlers?
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Post by Ghost Rider »

One small bit since I'm not about to wade through ten pages of people giving out no math on ST side...or if they did, they didn't do enough to objectively prove their point to the B5 people.

Walper...provide him the goddamn quote. Going this concession bullshit doesn't work until your have hard proof.

So put it up or shut up about it.
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Post by NecronLord »

It's probably at best something nice and vague that he is choosing to interpret as Telepathic Borg... :roll:
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Post by Robert Walper »

Ghost Rider wrote: Walper...provide him the goddamn quote. Going this concession bullshit doesn't work until your have hard proof.

So put it up or shut up about it.
How does one provide a "quote" for a scene, series of scenes, or entire episode?

Chakotay had a neural transciever attached to his neck to repair damage to his brain. The device was then removed. Later on in the episode, the hive mind of the group on the planet took control of him and used him to activate the Borg cube.

Obviously implants are not required to hear or even be controlled by a hive mind.

I can provide the transcript of the episode in question: Here
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Post by harbringer »

Just to make sure I am not going to to be a bastard, is this the total limit of what has so far been put forward?:

The borg may have 40 MT (or slightly less) to 1 GT (upper limit) shielding

The borg do not have billions or millions of cubes sitting waiting for something to happen and thus have fewer resources available

There is at this time no upper limit or likely figure for vorlon/shadow fleet strength

Shadow cutter beam (and vorlon weapons) have a minimum of 30TW

Standard borg tactic is to wade in against the opposition

Offensive capabilities are on par or better than the federation who defeated the borg twice

Nukes pretty available for ship captains in B5 and maybe up to 500MT

B5 has ECM (may interfere with transporters)

Borg have transporters and may have whacky assimilation clouds, assimilation beams and other stuff.

OR have hyperspace cloaking and planet killers

There isnt a lot there to have a definative answer is there...
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Post by NecronLord »

Robert Walper wrote:Obviously implants are not required to hear or even be controlled by a hive mind.
One just has to be deliberately targeted by a communications array, and have recently altered brain chemistry. A bit different from what you've been saying, no? In any case, you're now back to 'The borg were telling Picard how to destroy their own ship in First Contact' then?
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Robert Walper wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Walper...provide him the goddamn quote. Going this concession bullshit doesn't work until your have hard proof.

So put it up or shut up about it.
How does one provide a "quote" for a scene, series of scenes, or entire episode?

Chakotay had a neural transciever attached to his neck to repair damage to his brain. The device was then removed. Later on in the episode, the hive mind of the group on the planet took control of him and used him to activate the Borg cube.

Obviously implants are not required to hear or even be controlled by a hive mind.

I can provide the transcript of the episode in question: Here
To the first question, by actually taking the RELEVANT QUOTES from the episode or episodes, dumbfuck. Do you have to have this shit spelt out for you? :roll:

And honestly you provided what you should've done when you were spewing Concession accepted instead of blathering.

Just because you are spewing the words, doesn't make it so to the observers unless you show irrefutable proof that evidence supports you.
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Post by Lost Soal »

At the end of the VOY Ep in question the doctor gives his prognosis of how it happened.
When Chakotay was linked for the purposes of healing him the neural link raised the level of "Neural Peptides" in Chakotas brain and the residual Peptides "hightened his telepathic receptivity". It was stated earliar in the episode the the side effects of the link would remain for a few hrs after they had finished. From the doctors prognosis, it suggests that an hr or 2 later and they would not have been able to control him.
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Post by Bellator »

That is an explanation about Borg Telepathy (which apparantly exists). However, that isn't an explanation for why Picard could still hear them years later...or perhaps it's a residual side effect? The Borg could no longer take Picard over, but his "level of neural peptides" might still be slightly higher then in non-assimilated humans, and allowing him to still hear the collective. :?:
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Post by Crown »

Seriously; has anyone considered the possibility that Picard is just highly delusional? Not as far fetched as you might think.
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Post by SirNitram »

Crown wrote:Seriously; has anyone considered the possibility that Picard is just highly delusional? Not as far fetched as you might think.
I'd have considered it highly likely if it wasn't for two facts from First Contact:

1) The 'Voices' weren't just reflecting his fears.
2) No Drones seemed to give a damn about him walking the halls with a prisoner.
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Post by Bellator »

and for the fact that he knew that the Borg were coming before he got a call from his admiral.
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