nBSG - New Episode

tumbletom · Post by **tumbletom** » 2006-01-10 02:21pm

If Roslin dies, she should be in Adama's head, sort of like six is in Baltars

Kinda guiding the way....

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2006-01-10 03:42pm

Another fantastic episode! I was wondering today if the rank and file Cylons, namily the Raider ships and Centurions, get downloaded to the Cylon homeworld or "Resurrection" ship when they get destroyed? I'm inclined to believe that they don't, that they are true robots, programmed to do one specific task and follow orders. We don't know how sentient the Raiders and Centurions are, such as if they feel human emotions. Just speculating outloud.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-01-10 04:54pm

I'm curious as to people's opinions on the morality vs. need of Roslin's plan.

Basically, should Roslin have considered first locking her away, rather than simply assassinating her outright? She didn't even seem to think of alternative measures. I know that the Galactica brig is practically an open door brig these days, but it seems to me a more moral choice...perhaps even one closer to Roslin's personality type, would be to let proper justice take it's course. Arrest Cain, try to find a tribunal again, assemble, have a trial with witnesses from Pegasus telling everyone what happened under her command, and THEN roasting her.

It just seemed slightly like they jumped to the highest extreme immediately.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-10 06:47pm

CaptJodan wrote:I'm curious as to people's opinions on the morality vs. need of Roslin's plan.

Basically, should Roslin have considered first locking her away, rather than simply assassinating her outright? She didn't even seem to think of alternative measures. I know that the Galactica brig is practically an open door brig these days, but it seems to me a more moral choice...perhaps even one closer to Roslin's personality type, would be to let proper justice take it's course. Arrest Cain, try to find a tribunal again, assemble, have a trial with witnesses from Pegasus telling everyone what happened under her command, and THEN roasting her.

It just seemed slightly like they jumped to the highest extreme immediately.

*shrug* You'd have to 'arrest' her by surprise. Emailing her a warrent or supeana or something is going to end up with a civil war. The simple fact is, though Rosiln is the President, by their law,and Adama accepts that, Adama has more real power than Roslin because of his command.

Cain has more power than both Adama and Roslin because of her command. Plus Cain doesn't exactly seem as compliant with Roslin being President as Adama is.

Lee said something in the first season, about if they didn't follow their Constitution, Roslin wouldn't be the president and Adama wouldn't be a commander and thus Lee wouldn't have to do as they ordered.

Cain seems aweful close to this distinction. So far, Roslin hasn't given her any real 'orders' and I believe Cain is somewhat amused at Roslin, but that would change drastically if the President ORDERED Cain to do something specific that went against what Cain wanted to do.

If the President did, I think Cain would stop listening to the law, stop considering herself part of the 'goverment' and ignore Commnad Structure (such as it is) and more or less think of herself as her own nation/entity with ofcourse herself as dictator. She pretty much runs her ship that way, anyways.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-01-10 08:43pm

I agree with most of that. It's clear that if Cain was ordered by Roslin to step down whilst Cain was still aboard Pegasus, she'd flat refuse, and blow Colonial One sky high in the process.

Clearly the right tactic WOULD be to take her by surprise. Ask her to come onto Colonial One, and have either Adama's marines, or even Roslin's Secret Service arrest her.

Taking her by surprise and throwing her in the brig would allow Roslin to try and get justice back on track. So far, this hasn't worked well for Roslin, and honestly I can't see how that's a good thing. If the tribunal can't work for Galactia, and military justice ala Cain style doesn't work, then what DO they use as a form of justice for the regular joe who steals a loaf of bread on Cloud Nine. It would be a great way to reestablish Colonial law where, for the moment, Colonial law has been dubiously practiced at best.

I think she's just setting a bad precedent, and an even worse example. And she should know better, as 5 minutes before she wanted to kill Cain, she gave Cain the song and dance about how they are the example setters.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2006-01-10 08:49pm

Somethings I am courious about

The Galactica has 1 good Cylon Transport (The one Boomer stole), and 1 beat up one (That rammed the Galactica). Where are these?

Did these have the Transponders.

Why was there a transponder placed on the Bridge of the Galactica during the miniseries.

From the Season 2 DVD sneak peak, Six flips a marine in a quick scene. Also Boomer talks about murdering 10,000's of thousands of cylons, and about how humanity maybe should not survive.

Hairbrain theory, but the whole Adama is a cylon thing, if it meant Zak. That would screw everyone up. LOL

Good episode, can't wait until Fri. I am courious on where the whole Roslin Arc is going.

ngc7293 · Post by **ngc7293** » 2006-01-11 12:01am

I figure the reason Roslin didn't have Cain arrested and put in the brig was for the same reason she got put there.

Like Roslin, Cain is responsible for doing some really bad things yet she has plenty of people who sympathize with her. Killing her might make her a martyr, but this is a military organization, so orders are followed by the one in command (hence, the killing of the civilians).

xerex · Post by **xerex** » 2006-01-11 08:27am

CaptJodan wrote:I'm curious as to people's opinions on the morality vs. need of Roslin's plan.

Basically, should Roslin have considered first locking her away, rather than simply assassinating her outright? She didn't even seem to think of alternative measures. I know that the Galactica brig is practically an open door brig these days, but it seems to me a more moral choice...perhaps even one closer to Roslin's personality type, would be to let proper justice take it's course. Arrest Cain, try to find a tribunal again, assemble, have a trial with witnesses from Pegasus telling everyone what happened under her command, and THEN roasting her.

It just seemed slightly like they jumped to the highest extreme immediately.

ngc7293 wrote:I figure the reason Roslin didn't have Cain arrested and put in the brig was for the same reason she got put there.

Like Roslin, Cain is responsible for doing some really bad things yet she has plenty of people who sympathize with her. Killing her might make her a martyr, but this is a military organization, so orders are followed by the one in command (hence, the killing of the civilians).

you've got to figure that Cain has her loyalists and as long as she's alive they're going to try and rescue her or disrupt Roslin's authority. if Cain is dead they have no one to rally around

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2006-01-11 01:22pm

Its worth pointing out that the crewmen who tipped off Tirol and Agathon seemed to hold the Admiral in very high regard nor see anything wrong with the methods used to deal with Cylons and possibly even those labeled traitor by the Admiral. These are not normal people in a normal black and white moral situation. They are still in the mindset of, for lack of a better analogy, having had their entire civilization wiped out by a long hated enemy. Being able to distinguish between right and wrong gets harder under these or similar circumstances, its entirely too easy to make choices born more from rage and hate than something more rational is not easy under these circumstances as many whose countries have endured war and terrorism can testify. It was estimated elsewhere in the thread that it has been..what? about six months since the destruction of the Twelve Colonies? And people think its suprising that we are not seeing characters take the high road instead of expediency and generally act as rational as people not under the constant threat of extinction?

Neo-BSG has many analogies to our world but it is not our world, we are on the outside looking in. Characters do not act as if we were in their position because our perspective is vastly different than their's. Galactica is at its core, an apocalypse story, its the end of the world and as far as many people would be concerned, anything goes.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-01-11 03:03pm

Knife wrote:Lee said something in the first season, about if they didn't follow their Constitution, Roslin wouldn't be the president and Adama wouldn't be a commander and thus Lee wouldn't have to do as they ordered.

Cain seems aweful close to this distinction. So far, Roslin hasn't given her any real 'orders' and I believe Cain is somewhat amused at Roslin, but that would change drastically if the President ORDERED Cain to do something specific that went against what Cain wanted to do.

If the President did, I think Cain would stop listening to the law, stop considering herself part of the 'goverment' and ignore Commnad Structure (such as it is) and more or less think of herself as her own nation/entity with ofcourse herself as dictator. She pretty much runs her ship that way, anyways.

I saw the opening and middle chapters of this story. From what I observe, Cain's already severed all ties to Colonial law and the constitution. She's a war criminal and likely to plot a military coup against the Council as to butter her toast each morning. Roslin's only real options are either to arrest her by surprise or have Adama arrange an "accident" for her.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2006-01-11 03:56pm

To provide a counter-point to the "I love Cain's XO Fisk" crowd, we should keep in mind that all the dirt on Cain that he leaked to Tigh happened when he was drunk off his ass. Tigh might have told Adama Fisk was legit, but Tigh was ALSO drunk off his ass.

Laird said "things happen". "Things Happen" can be Cain pressing civillians into service and shooting the families of those that resist. "Things Happen" can be he was helping repair Vipers aboard Pegasus and then the civie fleet got nuked by a BaseStar.

All I'm saying is that we wait for a litttttttle more verifiable source on Cain's worst crimes than a drunk officer. It's not like we don't have enough to validate her execution already, which is probably why it's so easy to believe the more machab of Fisk's drunken tales. I wouldn't be tooo surprised if after Cain is injected with lead we find out "Ooooops, you mean we never told you guys aboard Galactica that Fisk makes it a weekly event to make up drunken stories to tell to other officers? Our bad......"

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2006-01-11 04:50pm

Shadow WarChief wrote:To provide a counter-point to the "I love Cain's XO Fisk" crowd, we should keep in mind that all the dirt on Cain that he leaked to Tigh happened when he was drunk off his ass. Tigh might have told Adama Fisk was legit, but Tigh was ALSO drunk off his ass.

Laird said "things happen". "Things Happen" can be Cain pressing civillians into service and shooting the families of those that resist. "Things Happen" can be he was helping repair Vipers aboard Pegasus and then the civie fleet got nuked by a BaseStar.

All I'm saying is that we wait for a litttttttle more verifiable source on Cain's worst crimes than a drunk officer. It's not like we don't have enough to validate her execution already, which is probably why it's so easy to believe the more machab of Fisk's drunken tales. I wouldn't be tooo surprised if after Cain is injected with lead we find out "Ooooops, you mean we never told you guys aboard Galactica that Fisk makes it a weekly event to make up drunken stories to tell to other officers? Our bad......"

Sure, that makes sense. Cain ordered her marines to shoot up the fucking Galactica bridge during a celebration, and you don't think she's capable of killing some civilians or her own officers for disobeying orders?

Spiny Norman · Post by **Spiny Norman** » 2006-01-11 05:00pm

Watch the ep again. The watch logs Caine was going over were the Galactica's. Watch her expression. She knows her actions were wrong based on Adama's and she knows it's going to come out sooner or later. Fisk might have been drunk, but he wasn't BSing. She's as much positioning those marines to eliminate Adama's command because he won't be her yes-man as much as she's preparing to cover her tracks in the biggest way possible. And as a bonus for her, she'll have two Battlestars to wage her quixotic war.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-11 05:52pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Knife wrote:Lee said something in the first season, about if they didn't follow their Constitution, Roslin wouldn't be the president and Adama wouldn't be a commander and thus Lee wouldn't have to do as they ordered.

Cain seems aweful close to this distinction. So far, Roslin hasn't given her any real 'orders' and I believe Cain is somewhat amused at Roslin, but that would change drastically if the President ORDERED Cain to do something specific that went against what Cain wanted to do.

If the President did, I think Cain would stop listening to the law, stop considering herself part of the 'goverment' and ignore Commnad Structure (such as it is) and more or less think of herself as her own nation/entity with ofcourse herself as dictator. She pretty much runs her ship that way, anyways.
I saw the opening and middle chapters of this story. From what I observe, Cain's already severed all ties to Colonial law and the constitution. She's a war criminal and likely to plot a military coup against the Council as to butter her toast each morning. Roslin's only real options are either to arrest her by surprise or have Adama arrange an "accident" for her.

Agreed. I believe in Cain's mind (and I suppose there is some points there) she's as entitled to be the 'leader' of humanity as some Secretary of Education is. Their whole civilization is gone. Roslin and Adama are picking up the pieces to make a new try at it.

Cain rather just dump it all and be a dictator like entity with her command and use it and anything she can grap for, basically, a revenge like action.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2006-01-11 08:57pm

Wonder if a Martial Law edict went down during the Cylon attack on the Colonies. If so, then Cain mihgt have a legal leg to stand on with regards to seizing civilian assets and shooting resisters.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-01-11 09:01pm

Even if one did, the President is still the Commander in Chief, and legally she has every right to be given the chain of succession, no matter how improbable it was that everyone above her would be killed. I'm sure she didn't declare martial law.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-11 09:02pm

No time for a martial law edict. Galactica was witness to the destruction of the political structure and has since continued the gov't in exile. Cain's only leg to stand on is that she has a big modern battle ship.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2006-01-11 09:05pm

But if Cain was acting within the last known legal parameters with out knowledge of the legal President's existance, then she was legally "within the right". Which may be why Rosilin wants to kill her vice put her on trial.

Who's to say that Other colonial goverments besides Caprica didn't start declaring Martial Law? Hell, we don't even know if the Pegasus was in the Caprica system when it all went down, and if the other colonies started issuing Martial Law edicts (with nothing substantive coming out of Caprica proper) than Cain may have made the decision that, based upon availible information,Martial was occuring throughout the colonies.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-11 09:11pm

Then, why, when she arrived, did she not immediately cede control back to the commander in chief upon learning of new orders being in place?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2006-01-11 09:15pm

We haven't seen her actually disobey a direct order from the surviving civilian leadership. While I have no doubt that she thinks little of Rosilin and will only obey her if it suits her, she's also spent the last 6 months operating the Pegasus seperate from everyone else, and may think that Rosilin abdicated any claim to being CnC when she ordered the fleet to flee.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-01-11 10:08pm

Lonestar wrote:We haven't seen her actually disobey a direct order from the surviving civilian leadership. While I have no doubt that she thinks little of Rosilin and will only obey her if it suits her, she's also spent the last 6 months operating the Pegasus seperate from everyone else, and may think that Rosilin abdicated any claim to being CnC when she ordered the fleet to flee.

We haven't seen Roslin give Cain any orders because Roslin doesn't touch the military. Roslin essentially ceded all military affairs to Adama, who in turn ceded them to Cain upon her arrival.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-01-11 10:17pm

From the last couple of episodes, I miss some good lingering space shots. I re-watched the miniseries, and I miss those long drawn out jerky zooms and follows of spaceships. Made it seem a lot more serious and gritty.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-01-11 10:19pm

Trytostaydead wrote:From the last couple of episodes, I miss some good lingering space shots. I re-watched the miniseries, and I miss those long drawn out jerky zooms and follows of spaceships. Made it seem a lot more serious and gritty.

There were some good ones of the Pegasus. The editors are probably worried about cramming in enough plot, which would mean cutting those cool shots.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-01-12 04:05pm

Now that we know a Resurrection Ship is following the fleet, what happened to the "spirit" of the Boomer that died on the Galactica? Was her soul transferred back and what will happen then when a new body she inhabits confronts the Chief?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2006-01-12 04:50pm

Trytostaydead wrote:Now that we know a Resurrection Ship is following the fleet, what happened to the "spirit" of the Boomer that died on the Galactica? Was her soul transferred back and what will happen then when a new body she inhabits confronts the Chief?

Shes' on the Resurrection ship now, I believe. Wasn't that her in the episode with Lucy Lawless?