Tanks vs. Mechs: 1941 Force Sub Part 3

[Frank Hipper]

T-90s in 1941? Am I missing special conditions here?

That ain't no T-90. Red Storm may think it is, but it's not. The reactive armor is all wrong.

Picked because it was an overhead shot.

[Darth Wong]

Everything that hurls an object is technically kinetic. The point is one of quantification.

Non-explosive kinetic then, and they seemed better than other mobile suit MGs.

You obviously don't understand the word "quantification".

Precisely. This proves that the weight figures are total bullshit, these things must be made of feather-light materials, and they would be shot full of holes by small-arms fire.

The only infantry carried weapon I've seen hurt a Zoid was a rare anti-zoid weapon.

So, if weapon A of unknown capabilities from fictional universe can't hurt object B, you can somehow derive absolutes from that?

The fact that some shitty Zoid cartoon gun can't punch through what is obviously feather-light material does not mean that a properly designed modern gun would not get the job done.

Also in the series we've seen that there are multiple zoids capable of of taking hits from city destroying weapons (The Ultrasaurus took IIRC 2 or 3 hits from the DeathSaurer without being destroyed and could also withstand the city-destroying CPC of the Death Stinger for IIRC 30 minutes).

They must make cities out of dry kindling in this universe.

Could you also enlighten me as to how the weight figures can be wrong when we don't know what they're made of?

Please learn some basic physics. Do you know how bearings work? Do you know what I was referring to when I mentioned shock-loading, in regards to running at high speed? Not to mention those agile turns and stops? You DO know that the ground can only support certain kinds of pressures before giving way, right? And that you can't stop a 30 ton object and leap off to the right like a gazelle by lightly planting a foot in dirt? How much of this do I have to painstakingly explain to you?

[Sea Skimmer]

Everything that hurls an object is technically kinetic. The point is one of quantification.

Non-explosive kinetic then, and they seemed better than other mobile suit MGs.

Non-explosive kinetic rounds, which create huge dust clouds or balls of flame on impact. Blasts consistant with HE-FRAG and Incendiarie warheads, not solid AP rounds.

Also in the series we've seen that there are multiple zoids capable of of taking hits from city destroying weapons (The Ultrasaurus took IIRC 2 or 3 hits from the DeathSaurer without being destroyed and could also withstand the city-destroying CPC of the Death Stinger for IIRC 30 minutes).

America destroyed more of Tokyo with mere Incendiariy bombs then a small nuclear blast would have. Unless you have proof of huge energy releases that doesnt mean jack. They could have been under attack by a flame thrower.

[SylasGaunt]

Non-explosive kinetic rounds, which create huge dust clouds or balls of flame on impact. Blasts consistant with HE-FRAG and Incendiarie warheads, not solid AP rounds.

A solid AP shot that punched through one side of a Zaku, through the cockpit and out the other with no explosion whatsoever. (referring to the 90mm gatling guns carried by the Gundam Alex)

America destroyed more of Tokyo with mere Incendiariy bombs then a small nuclear blast would have. Unless you have proof of huge energy releases that doesnt mean jack. They could have been under attack by a flame thrower.

It was an energy beam with a single shot taking the city out and IIRC (looking for a video clip now) what we could see of the city in question was stone construction.

So, if weapon A of unknown capabilities from fictional universe can't hurt object B, you can somehow derive absolutes from that?

The fact that some shitty Zoid cartoon gun can't punch through what is obviously feather-light material does not mean that a properly designed modern gun would not get the job done.

Said weapon being designed to be used against something capable of withstanding the kind of exertions placed upon it. Nevermind the only Zoid we see it used on is one of the more lightly armored ones and that some of the more common zoids have shown they're capable of withstanding fire from point blank range from a cannon able to hurl a shell more than 60 miles.

They must make cities out of tinder in this universe.

Really? Looked like stone to me.

Please learn some basic physics. Do you know how bearings work? Do you know what I was referring to when I mentioned shock-loading, in regards to running at high speed? Not to mention those agile turns and stops?

You're the engineer, that's why I asked, of course if you insist on acting like a jerk when someone politely asks for information knock yourself out.

You DO know that the ground can only support certain kinds of pressures before giving way, right?

Yes.

And that you can't stop a 30 ton object and leap off to the right like a gazelle by lightly planting a foot in dirt? How much of this do I have to painstakingly explain to you?

True, on the other hand in this case there's no in-series contradiction to anything.

[Sea Skimmer]

A solid AP shot that punched through one side of a Zaku, through the cockpit and out the other with no explosion whatsoever. (referring to the 90mm gatling guns carried by the Gundam Alex)

Dud round, or too long of a time delay. With their shit armor you'd need a near instantaneous fuse to explode a penetrating hit inside before it punches out the back.

It was an energy beam with a single shot taking the city out and IIRC (looking for a video clip now) what we could see of the city in question was stone construction.

Hamburg and Dresden where also built of stone. That didn't stop the firestorms from forming after a only a few hundred bombers struck. Your average stone or brick building has quite a lot of wood in it. '

At this pount we will know return to Zoids, The Gundam debeat is long since dead with a victory for the Tanks. Look up the orginal 50+ pages of threads if you want. Notice how after page eight of the first one the whole thing was sustained only by two fan whores.

[AdmiralKanos]

Said weapon being designed to be used against something capable of withstanding the kind of exertions placed upon it. Nevermind the only Zoid we see it used on is one of the more lightly armored ones and that some of the more common zoids have shown they're capable of withstanding fire from point blank range from a cannon able to hurl a shell more than 60 miles.

Must be a shell made out of tin.

They must make cities out of tinder in this universe.

Really? Looked like stone to me.

So does paper mache.

Please learn some basic physics. Do you know how bearings work? Do you know what I was referring to when I mentioned shock-loading, in regards to running at high speed? Not to mention those agile turns and stops?

You're the engineer, that's why I asked, of course if you insist on acting like a jerk when someone politely asks for information knock yourself out.

Oh, I hadn't realized that it might be a sincere question. Normally, people who are ignorant of such incredibly basic concepts try to hide it.

You DO know that the ground can only support certain kinds of pressures before giving way, right?

Yes.

Then you should understand why they cannot have the mass attributed to them, hence, as I said before, the mass figure is shit.

And that you can't stop a 30 ton object and leap off to the right like a gazelle by lightly planting a foot in dirt? How much of this do I have to painstakingly explain to you?

True, on the other hand in this case there's no in-series contradiction to anything.

Are you saying that if they don't explicitly point something out, you reject it even though it makes perfect sense? If they don't say that water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius in their universe, you figure it doesn't? Who cares if it's in-series? Those moves cannot be performed with a bot of the specified weight. They perform the moves anyway, so the weight is obviously wrong.

[SylasGaunt]

Dud round, or too long of a time delay. With their shit armor you'd need a near instantaneous fuse to explode a penetrating hit inside before it punches out the back.

Now where's your proof that the Gundam Alex used explosive rounds?

Hamburg and Dresden where also built of stone. That didn't stop the firestorms from forming after a only a few hundred bombers struck. Your average stone or brick building has quite a lot of wood in it. '

There's a big difference between the payloads of several hundred bombers delivered over time and one shot that results in a single massive blast.

Must be a shell made out of tin.

Proof? Or are you just goign to make arbitrary judgements with no backing?

So does paper mache.

People can't live in multi-story paper-mache buildings now can they? Or are you going to claim all the near identical stone nearbye was paper mache to?

Oh, I hadn't realized that it might be a sincere question. Normally, people who are ignorant of such incredibly basic concepts try to hide it.

I've never had any reason to study the workings of mechanical joints, engines, etc. so when something involving them comes up it only makes sense to ask someone who does yes?

Then you should understand why they cannot have the mass attributed to them, hence, as I said before, the mass figure is shit.

That would vary depending on the surface though yes?

Are you saying that if they don't explicitly point something out, you reject it even though it makes perfect sense? If they don't say that water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius in their universe, you figure it doesn't?

If they said it didn't then I'd assume the scale had been changed for some reason or that there was something screwy about that particular bit of water. Since they haven't said anything about the freezing temperature being different I assume it's the same.

Who cares if it's in-series? Those moves cannot be performed with a bot of the specified weight. They perform the moves anyway, so the weight is obviously wrong.

Even if we accept that then what bearing would this have upon the durability of the armor considering we don't know it's composition and the whole series takes place on another planet anyway.[/quote]

[AdmiralKanos]

Must be a shell made out of tin.

Proof? Or are you just goign to make arbitrary judgements with no backing?

The fact that it doesn't knock over a feather-light bot, yet can supposedly go 60 miles on inertia. Connect the dots.

So does paper mache.

People can't live in multi-story paper-mache buildings now can they? Or are you going to claim all the near identical stone nearbye was paper mache to?

And stone doesn't burn, so it's quite frankly a given that if the city goes up in flames, there must be flammables. Unless you're talking about a nuclear blast, which would have all sorts of recognizable side effects, I don't see what you're trying to prove.

I've never had any reason to study the workings of mechanical joints, engines, etc. so when something involving them comes up it only makes sense to ask someone who does yes?

Yes, but you're going to get ass-raped by your local auto mechanic sooner or later if you don't learn this stuff. Bearings do not like shock-loading, and the shock-loading of a 30-ton object RUNNING AND JUMPING would be an engineering nightmare. Even Star Wars and Star Trek seem ultra-realistic compared to a universe where you can make a 30-ton object run and dodge like a gazelle.

That would vary depending on the surface though yes?

Not really. A 30 ton object can't stop like that on any surface. A hard surface would simply make the thing slip, and a soft surface would give long before the bot stops.

Who cares if it's in-series? Those moves cannot be performed with a bot of the specified weight. They perform the moves anyway, so the weight is obviously wrong.

Even if we accept that then what bearing would this have upon the durability of the armor considering we don't know it's composition and the whole series takes place on another planet anyway.

If the weight is extremely low, then the impact of a shell which does not knock it over must also be extremely small. Therefore, you are obviously overrating their mechanical strength; this is just another sci-fi universe with piss-weak weapons.

[SAMAS]

Precisely. This proves that the weight figures are total bullshit, these things must be made of feather-light materials, and they would be shot full of holes by small-arms fire.

The only infantry carried weapon I've seen hurt a Zoid was a rare anti-zoid weapon.

So, if weapon A of unknown capabilities from fictional universe can't hurt object B, you can somehow derive absolutes from that?

Actually, there are several infantry weapons shown. From pistols to the Anti-Zoid rifle he's mentioning. But that's really neither here nor there.

They must make cities out of dry kindling in this universe.

They don't.

Could you also enlighten me as to how the weight figures can be wrong when we don't know what they're made of?

Please learn some basic physics. Do you know how bearings work? Do you know what I was referring to when I mentioned shock-loading, in regards to running at high speed? Not to mention those agile turns and stops? You DO know that the ground can only support certain kinds of pressures before giving way, right? And that you can't stop a 30 ton object and leap off to the right like a gazelle by lightly planting a foot in dirt? How much of this do I have to painstakingly explain to you?

[/quote]

Zoids never turn with that much agility, although they often wish they could. Of particular note is an episode where a Lightning Saix and a Liger Zero(Jaeger Armor) were engaged in a high-speed chase. The Liger makes a turn, and has to tear through a few hundred feet of forest before it can complete it.

The only time someone tried something similar was in the New Century Zero series, where a Liger Zero was being chased by a pumped-up Dark Horn. The Liger's pilot leads the Dark Horn through a series of turns, all in the same direction. Eventually, the Dark Horn's joints do wear out from the sharp turns it was forced to make while chasing the Liger(As you can tell by the picture, Dark Horns are not built for agility).

Oh, and do you remember this?

As for the original question, no. The strength of SW materials is ridiculously high and entirely unrealistic. To build a 17km long ship and accelerate it at 3000 G's without massive deformation is simply not possible using any remotely feasible materials. We could muse that the SW galaxy has found some way to create entirely artificial atomic structures by manipulating subatomic particles, but if we're going to ask what we can realistically achieve, we can say with a high degree of certainty that we will never achieve that. We are talking about needing materials which are a thousand times stronger than anything we have.

[AdmiralKanos]

Zoids never turn with that much agility, although they often wish they could. Of particular note is an episode where a Lightning Saix and a Liger Zero(Jaeger Armor) were engaged in a high-speed chase. The Liger makes a turn, and has to tear through a few hundred feet of forest before it can complete it.

And the ground can support this activity ... how?

Oh, and do you remember this?

As for the original question, no. The strength of SW materials is ridiculously high and entirely unrealistic. To build a 17km long ship and accelerate it at 3000 G's without massive deformation is simply not possible using any remotely feasible materials. We could muse that the SW galaxy has found some way to create entirely artificial atomic structures by manipulating subatomic particles, but if we're going to ask what we can realistically achieve, we can say with a high degree of certainty that we will never achieve that. We are talking about needing materials which are a thousand times stronger than anything we have.

Yes, and I presented the proof for the aforementioned material strength. How does that change the fact that A) the bot literature invariably describes materials made from elements we are aware of today and B) the ground does not support the activity they are supposedly capable of? Is dirt much stronger in the Zoid universe too?

[Typhonis 1]

ECm against WW2 tech???? um excuse me but the ruskies hardly even had RADIOS for there tanks the commanders used flags .Whats the ECM going to do to optically tracked weapons

[SylasGaunt]

The fact that it doesn't knock over a feather-light bot, yet can supposedly go 60 miles on inertia. Connect the dots.

Actually that's one of the more common things that happens when a Zoid takes a hit from the big cannons, they get knocked over, though usually the armor remains intact.

And stone doesn't burn, so it's quite frankly a given that if the city goes up in flames, there must be flammables. Unless you're talking about a nuclear blast, which would have all sorts of recognizable side effects, I don't see what you're trying to prove.

The city didn't go up in flames, the beam hits then there's a damn big explosion.

Yes, but you're going to get ass-raped by your local auto mechanic sooner or later if you don't learn this stuff.

Such would be the case but the mechanic in question is a friend of the family (and other members of my family do know this stuff).

Bearings do not like shock-loading, and the shock-loading of a 30-ton object RUNNING AND JUMPING would be an engineering nightmare. Even Star Wars and Star Trek seem ultra-realistic compared to a universe where you can make a 30-ton object run and dodge like a gazelle.

I made no claims on the realism of the series just on what it's shown to be capable of.

Not really. A 30 ton object can't stop like that on any surface. A hard surface would simply make the thing slip, and a soft surface would give long before the bot stops.

That's a phenomena we do see fairly often with larger zoids when they try to stop suddenly (one pilots often use to firing in one direction while they slide in another).

Who cares if it's in-series? Those moves cannot be performed with a bot of the specified weight. They perform the moves anyway, so the weight is obviously wrong.

Unless there's some other systems in effect we do not know about.

If the weight is extremely low, then the impact of a shell which does not knock it over must also be extremely small. Therefore, you are obviously overrating their mechanical strength; this is just another sci-fi universe with piss-weak weapons.

See above, being knocked over is one of the more common results of a hit, armor penetration is less so.

We've also seen the Death Stinger go through lava flows without problems and the Ultrasaurus survive hits from the Deathstinger's CPC.

[SAMAS]

Actually, much of the battlefields on Zi are rather arid and weathered. So much of the fighting is either in the desert on on rock.

[Vympel]

ECm against WW2 tech???? um excuse me but the ruskies hardly even had RADIOS for there tanks the commanders used flags .Whats the ECM going to do to optically tracked weapons

I assume this force sub is using modern Russian equipment as in previous ones- regardless, the burden of proof is on the mech fanboy side to prove that ECM will somehow have an effect on tank gunner's sights, anti-tank missiles, etc.

[Vympel]

Actually, much of the battlefields on Zi are rather arid and weathered. So much of the fighting is either in the desert on on rock.

Watching these things flail around and sink in the mud would be interesting

[Typhonis 1]

Thread staets mechs vs Tanks 1941 force sub.........

[Vympel]

Thread staets mechs vs Tanks 1941 force sub.........

I know, but there have been two previous threads, and in both cases the Russian forces got modern equipment- we assume it's the same.

[SylasGaunt]

There are several zoids that can be equipped with optical cloaking systems making them invisible.

Also, if the environment in question is muddy it may inhibit movement on plenty of the bigger zoids but all the hover capable ones (Berserk Furher, Sinker Ray etc.) won't have any problems, and the Warsharks alone are going to present a helluva problem.

[Darth Wong]

Sorry, I was confusing this with Battletech, where we do know what they're made of. In the case of Zoids, if they're accurately modelled after the toys, they use a ridiculously inefficient configuration of armour and locomotion. I would have to see more of the show in order to figure out more about what they can and cannot do (frankly, the track record of people honestly describing the strengths and weaknesses of their own favourite obscure sci-fi series is poor at best), although their inability to perform in anything other than a hard rock environment would be a serious impediment.

On the other hand, they do have the dubious distinction of the single funniest robot name I've ever seen.

[SylasGaunt]

Yes, you can see why they renamed that thing the Warshark in the dub (and that one is I think going to be a royal pain in the ass for the Ruskies to deal with considering it's ability to fight from underground).

I'd also like to note that we've seen Zoids operating in forested and sandy environments.

One odd little tidbit I seem to remember somewhere was that the zoids were themselves the native lifeforms of Zi (though I think the guns etc. are human additions)

[consequences]

Given the amount of effort they go to to stage the fights in Zoids, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they had deliberately compressed the battlefields down to solid rock to facilitate the viability of heavy mechs. These people orbitally drop large canisters with a judge robot to every sanctioned fight, and recover them quicly enough to use the same judges in less than a week when there are said to be thousands of them(large meaning 30 foot tall cylinder).
Lets face it, the only true viability of mecha is in gladiatorial combat, where the visual appeal would be far more important to the viewers than combat effectiveness, or relative cost..

[SylasGaunt]

Given the amount of effort they go to to stage the fights in Zoids, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they had deliberately compressed the battlefields down to solid rock to facilitate the viability of heavy mechs. These people orbitally drop large canisters with a judge robot to every sanctioned fight, and recover them quicly enough to use the same judges in less than a week when there are said to be thousands of them(large meaning 30 foot tall cylinder).
Lets face it, the only true viability of mecha is in gladiatorial combat, where the visual appeal would be far more important to the viewers than combat effectiveness, or relative cost..

That's in Zoids Zero which takes place long after Zoids: Chaotic Century (which covered an actual war).

[consequences]

Only Zoids I'm personally familiar with.

[SylasGaunt]

Only Zoids I'm personally familiar with.

Ah. Not that that's hard considering the timeslot Chaotic Century had during the initial runs (though they put it on in the afternoon later).

[Darth Wong]

Yes, you can see why they renamed that thing the Warshark in the dub (and that one is I think going to be a royal pain in the ass for the Ruskies to deal with considering it's ability to fight from underground).

Ummm, underwater, not underground.