Webers "PAth of the Fury" Empire vs GE

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-19 12:47pm

2500 is the largest figure I can remember from the books, and that was overloading the drive, normal max was 1400, I have no frigging clue where they got 4300 from, it wasn't in the copy of Path of the Fury that I own.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-19 01:25pm

About the accels:
Quote Path of the Fury, page 182:
"<Well, we've got a quarter LS lead on them now, and we'll go on opening it at forty-three KPS squared till we hit Soissons's Powell limit and I can really start opening up..."

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-19 01:27pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:But we also know they might be able to use their acceleration compensators to limit or negate the effect - it depends on how strong the SLAM's gravity field is, really

They are strong enough to "tear a planet to pieces".
Quite strong, I might think...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-20 04:31am

Dahak wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:But we also know they might be able to use their acceleration compensators to limit or negate the effect - it depends on how strong the SLAM's gravity field is, really
They are strong enough to "tear a planet to pieces".
Quite strong, I might think...

That doesn't tell us much. Even if we assume they can destroy an ISD or any warship the Empire throws at them in one shot, this hardly makes it any sort of wonder-weapon against the Empire. Hyperdrive advantage (both in speed and tactical flexibility) can give them mobility to dodge the missiles (particularily at the ranges most Weberverse ships engage at) and keeping close to their planets can negate their use of such weapons. Deprived of the SLAMS, the Furyverse has a much harder time offensively (ISD's being considerably more durable and heavier firepower wise.)

FBHthelizardmage · Post by **FBHthelizardmage** » 2003-01-22 12:31pm

Question which page is the 1 GT quote on? (so I don't have to look all the way through the book for it)

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-22 12:41pm

Can't remember page, but it was when the Poltava attacked the fortresses, something to the effect of the commander put on her headset just as the first 1000 megaton warhead impacted.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-22 06:41pm

ggs wrote:The blackholes used by Furyverse are not the same as the psuedo-blackholes used by the Vong.

How are Vong black holes "pseudo-black holes"?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-23 12:02am

Normally the Vong gravity wells don't last very long, when they have actually formed Lasting Black Holes, NR ships tend to die instantly upon hittng them, but this hasn't been tested on cap ships.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-23 12:59am

consequences wrote:Normally the Vong gravity wells don't last very long, when they have actually formed Lasting Black Holes, NR ships tend to die instantly upon hittng them, but this hasn't been tested on cap ships.

Yes it has. They used ramming attacks on Fondor shipyards, the refugee ship leaving at the start of Jedi Eclipse, and the Duros city ships. Every single time the voids were canceled and it was the ship impacting and breaking apart that did the damage. And the "gunship" that rammed the duros station is 600-700 meters long, a fully capital ship.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-23 01:01am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
ggs wrote:The blackholes used by Furyverse are not the same as the psuedo-blackholes used by the Vong.
How are Vong black holes "pseudo-black holes"?

Well, they don't suck up the planet when used in atmosphere, the don't disrupt orbits when the ships pass by, they are movable...

All in all, they seem identicle to those used by the furyverse.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-23 01:34am

This debate is still going on? Don't tell me its still occuring at Spacebattles.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-23 01:45am

What the fuck is it with sci-fi writers and black holes? There are 5 fucking things the writers are too goddamned stupid to realize:

A black hole has MASS/ENERGY; it is impossible for a device to generate a black hole without putting in the requisite amount of mass/energy. This limits the "size" of the resulting black hole to the mass/energy of the missile itself; at most, it could only generate an ultra low-mass singularity.
An ultra low-mass singularity will spontaneously evapourate into a shower of gamma rays. A device which produced a tiny singularity from its own mass would simply explode in a burst of gamma rays so it's really no more dangerous than a M/AM device.
The event horizon of an ultra low-mass singularity will be microscopic (assuming it could be stabilized through some inconceivable method, since that would require the cessation of Hawking radiation and neutralization of the laws of quantum physics).
An ultra low-mass singularity will have no more gravitational attraction at any given distance than the original missile did (until you get into its microscopic event horizon, of course).
An ultra-low-mass singularity moving at 0.98c would pass harmlessly through a starship, doing almost no damage whatsoever. In fact, it could probably pass right through a human body with almost no effect; certainly less destructive than a 7.62mm bullet making that same trip. It would core out a microscopic hole through your body as it passes through, but that's it. It would probably heal without incident, and the hole would probably be so small that only individual cells are damaged, not whole groups of cells

Black-hole weapons are technowank for morons. Maybe somebody should point that out to the people at spacebattles who are wasting their time on this shit.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-23 02:24am

Go easy on the Author of the book, it was one of his first, and he was trying for a different propulsion concept than those normally seen. If you really want to correct him, go to Baen's Bar and challenge him.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-23 02:26am

Weber's books never really went for technical accuracy (only the real appearance of, IIRC) - considering some of the so called yields he can get from fusion technology (hundreds of megatons - comparable outputs for energy weapons, etc.)

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-23 02:51am

Remember that fusion tech doesn't always mean the limited reactors we are still working towards ourselves.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-23 03:20am

It does in this case. WE're not talking antimatter reactors (which have been distinct from fusion in any case.)

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-23 06:39am

Connor MacLeod wrote:This debate is still going on? Don't tell me its still occuring at Spacebattles.

It is

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-23 08:44am

consequences wrote:Go easy on the Author of the book, it was one of his first, and he was trying for a different propulsion concept than those normally seen. If you really want to correct him, go to Baen's Bar and challenge him.

If I went after him about it, I'm sure he'd just say it shouldn't be taken too seriously. Which is fine; my gripe was actually for the benefit of readers who populate these "vs" debates and pretend to be scientifically knowledgeable, yet spout this idiocy that a micro-mass singularity would devastate any starship, tear planets apart, etc. Look around, you'll see a LOT of fans who subscribe to some pretty ignorant misconceptions about singularities and black holes. It's OK to be ignorant of black holes (it's not as if these theories will have any effet whatsoever on humanity in our lifetimes), but not if you plan to spout pseudoscientific arguments about them in a "vs" debate.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-23 08:50am

Deliver me from stupid!

How would you classify Vong singularities? Dumb as fuck maybe?

They are claimed to directly bend space-time.

But that requires energy as much as anything else I guess and in a black hole energy as well as matter become irrelevant, right?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-23 08:56am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Deliver me from stupid!

How would you classify Vong singularities? Dumb as fuck maybe?

They are claimed to directly bend space-time.

But that requires energy as much as anything else I guess and in a black hole energy as well as matter become irrelevant, right?

Vong singularities are horrible writing, and that's all there is to it. The "dovin basal" or whatever the hell they call their furry black-hole generators can't possibly make a singularity of greater mass/energy than they possess; such would be a violation of conservation of energy, and they might as well just say that by the miracle of biotech, they can grow creatures that generate energy from nowhere.

Similarly, the idea of using one of these singularities to "swallow up" a turbolaser is idiotic; what do they think happens to the turbolaser's energy? It goes away? Ignoring CoE AGAIN? Of course not; it becomes part of the black hole. And what happens to the black hole when it goes away? Vanishes into nothing? Idiotic; it should RELEASE all of the energy that was pumped into it, including the turbolaser. Sorry, but the YV stories are mostly moronic pinhead-level bullshit writing, which is one of the reasons I consider them near-worthless.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-23 09:04am

*apologist mode?*

Darth Wong wrote:Vong singularities are horrible writing, and that's all there is to it. The "dovin basal" or whatever the hell they call their furry black-hole generators can't possibly make a singularity of greater mass/energy than they possess; such would be a violation of conservation of energy, and they might as well just say that by the miracle of biotech, they can grow creatures that generate energy from nowhere

Maybe they can draw power from the ship?

Similarly, the idea of using one of these singularities to "swallow up" a turbolaser is idiotic; what do they think happens to the turbolaser's energy? It goes away?

I believe re-directed maybe.
Maybe it's all about conversion to something the thing can handle with very high efficency grades? Maybe it turns it into neutrinos like SW shields do?

Idiotic; it should RELEASE all of the energy that was pumped into it, including the turbolaser.

Maybe it does?

Sorry, but the YV stories are mostly moronic pinhead-level bullshit writing, which is one of the reasons I consider them near-worthless.

Once you get around the problems of the gravity crapola I think it's pretty good, atleast after Star by Star the stories are quite good, especially Traitor.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-23 09:43am

If those basals are doing all of these things, they're not doing it with black holes.

The Schwarzchild radius is 2MG/c^2. Say a basal has a mass of 5 tons; even if it converted its entire mass into a singularity, its event horizon would be only 7E-24 metres. That is not a typo; this fucking thing would be smaller than an atom.

Even if you violate QM and stabilize this thing, how are you going to use subatomic-sized black holes to block turbolaser fire? And hell, if you fire them through something at 0.98c as in the Weberverse, how much damage as they likely to do? Knock a few atoms out of place? Big deal.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-23 09:46am

How big a radius would it have with them ass of an earth like planet have? Or something with the mass of our sun?

Eh, maybe their not black holes, just some technobabble wazoo jammed real far up the ass.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-23 09:50am

His Divine Shadow wrote:How big a radius would it have with them ass of an earth like planet have?

About 9 millimetres.

Or something with the mass of our sun?

About 3 km.

Eh, maybe their not black holes, just some technobabble wazoo jammed real far up the ass.

Exactly.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-23 09:52am

Can I have the formula you use to calculate those things? I might be able to turn it into a calculator, like the ones I got on my website.