Elementals (Btech) Vs. Stromtroopers

Lt. Nebfer · Post by **Lt. Nebfer** » 2003-01-21 12:51pm

well sormes vs elementales the claners will win(there armor is just beter(look cooler two:))but if you look at the big pictur b-tech is not going to do as well(mech vs atst lets call it even now at-at wellthe atat will win but its hard calculating the range and firepower of b-tech units(if you just take it from the game the ranges suck 300m range for a 120mm come on so we have to do an abstract vertion) but i say the 1on 1 (or say 5 on 1 the atat wins(mabey)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 01:13pm

SirNitram wrote:If the stats are taken straight from the varying official sources and put in BTech, the AT-ST is a sub-par mech. Anything else that light is typically carrying missiles and jumpjets, though it does sport a nice range advantage. An AT-AT, frighteningly, is a king of the battlefield if it can keep it's flanks from being rushed. Seventeen klicks is devastating when your opponent is limited to 2 klick Gauss Rifles.

The limited range of BTech weapons is quite a handicap, isn't it?

Of course, Juggernaughts are banned from local games. They weigh as much as dropships, yet outrun even a jumpjet assisted light mech.

It wouldn't help. They would only represent oversized targets to be taken down from long range by max-firepower AT-AT shots. And woe to them if they get in the sights of an SPHA-T.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-21 01:16pm

Mike, I'm turing into a regular dept. of corrections here (sorry...), but (Nitram, correct me if I'm wrong...), the Juggernaut is a SW vehicle...he's talking about converting it to BT. [They converted it, but no one plays them, because they get horribly unbalanced in conversion.] Now, if you WANT to give us a Jug, go ahead, but I don't think it's in the force sub, either original, or new...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 01:19pm

Oh, OK. I thought he was talking about some obscure BTech unit that I hadn't heard of. If it's a converted SW vehicle, that's obviously off-limits, although the Empire might have a few of them on-hand.

Of course, if we're going to get away from the baseline units, there's also Viper droids with their energy-absorbing armour, tank droids, Balmorran bipedal war droids, etc. Just gets nastier

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-21 01:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:Oh, OK. I thought he was talking about some obscure BTech unit that I hadn't heard of. If it's a converted SW vehicle, that's obviously off-limits, although the Empire might have a few of them on-hand.

Of course, if we're going to get away from the baseline units, there's also Viper droids with their energy-absorbing armour, tank droids, Balmorran bipedal war droids, etc. Just gets nastier

The Empire has shitloads of Juggernaughts. They're giant 16 wheel tanks that resemble rolling slabs. WEG calls them the precursor of the AT-AT, and they are fearsome. Equal range to the AT-AT, 200 kph speed in a straight line, something like 4000 tons, and more guns. It always amuses me that WEG realized that a tank designed by the Empire would be better than the walkers, it's just not used because a walker is scarier.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-21 01:27pm

FEAR ME, MORTALS!

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/Juggernaut.html

NOTE: The aforementioned are WEG stats, and therefore of questionable accuracy.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-21 02:24pm

Stormtroopers arent that much fun vs Elementals gimme SPACETROOPERS

or even a Sith *L* an Elemental vs Vader would be fun

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-21 10:21pm

If we could use the OLD BT rules (before FASA emasculated tanks, artillery, and even the Mechs

), it would be more fair. At one point there was no rule about only using one engine, until a guy built a medium 'Mech with two engines that outran a recon 'Mech and peppered it with PPC fire until it dropped. The recon 'Mech was played by one of FASA's writers. The next revision of the rulebook included the "one engine" rule.

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-21 11:04pm

The Dark wrote:If we could use the OLD BT rules (before FASA emasculated tanks, artillery, and even the Mechs ), it would be more fair. At one point there was no rule about only using one engine, until a guy built a medium 'Mech with two engines that outran a recon 'Mech and peppered it with PPC fire until it dropped. The recon 'Mech was played by one of FASA's writers. The next revision of the rulebook included the "one engine" rule.

Well, if we're really going to pull into the deep dark recess of what's allowed, I'll just crack open MaxTech and call it a day. Maximum range just went out the window, I tripled my armor, we've got weapons a Stormie would kill his own mother for, and an Atlas could literally pick up an AT-ST and use it as a club. (Odder things have happened). Level 3 is fun like that, but we don't like using it because it's Munchy.

Bit of explaining is in order, I suppose. 4th Edition Battletech, that is, the rules system that's described by the CBT people as the "official representation of the Battletech universe", has three rules levels, named, of all things, Level 1, 2, and 3. Level 1 is the "Lostech" era between, oh, 2800 or so and 3030ish. It's variously known as "Old Skool, CrapTech, and basically covers the era of the Sucession Wars, when everything good was scarce and everything bad was everywhere.

Level 2 covers Star League-era technology, the Clans, and everything after 3048 in-game. It's the stuff we're typically talking about when we're debating things about Battletech.

Level 1 and 2 are the rules that are legal for tournament play. They're the only rules you "need", and they're the only ones FASA/FanPro allow in the various Bloodright Trials, Gunslinger Tournies, etc, etc, etc.

Level 3, on the other hand, is all the "special" stuff. It's comprised of all the "But wouldn't it make sense for it to be like this" rules, all the special equipment various depraved chaps have come up with over the years, and so forth. Incorporating level 3 rules into the "How the universe works" bible really clears up alot of things. It's not legal for tournament play, but it is something that's perfectly allowable in pickup games or what have you.

It's also possible to design a fifty ton hovertank that can crank 250 kph, carry enough armor to laugh at an E-Web, and shoot the aforementioned E-web with a gauss rifle from five klicks away. And I'm really not getting into the really oddball stuff, like superchargers, PPC Capaciters, or, well, the entire section of electronics that gets added in.

But we don't generally like using Level 3, because most people think the stuff's munchy. That said, it could be used if it was neccesary, and I'm kicking myself wondering why I never did it over at Spacebattles. *makes mental note*

That leaves aside Phantom Mech Capability, of course...the only Jedi ever outside the Star Wars universe, Morgan Kell and Yorinaga Kurita, just blow the entire invasion force apart themselves...they literally can't be hit.

And Mike, if you're going to remove the theater shield, then there's no point to even having this matchup, because the Impstars could slag the entire base from orbit.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-21 11:56pm

Slacker wrote:
The Dark wrote:If we could use the OLD BT rules (before FASA emasculated tanks, artillery, and even the Mechs ), it would be more fair. At one point there was no rule about only using one engine, until a guy built a medium 'Mech with two engines that outran a recon 'Mech and peppered it with PPC fire until it dropped. The recon 'Mech was played by one of FASA's writers. The next revision of the rulebook included the "one engine" rule.
Well, if we're really going to pull into the deep dark recess of what's allowed, I'll just crack open MaxTech and call it a day. <snip MaxTech stuff>

Yeah, I know, MaxTech is sorta the wankfest of wankfests for giant mecha fans. I was just saying go back to something like BT1e, before everything was geared towards making the Mechs king of the battlefield at all cost to realism (what bit there was). I could see using two engines in a design. It would provide redundancy, although it would be far more mechanically complex (though if you're building a walker in the first place...)

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-22 09:15am

Oh, absolutely. I agree 100%. That said, MaxTech does exist as an option should it ever prove neccesary.
*looks at Dark's sig*
I see some of my minions in the Cult of Weber have worked their way over here. Exceeeeeeeeeeeellent.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-01-22 10:19am

One bit about the BTech universe. It is stated several times that elementals are not designed for open field use. They are designed for urban or dense terrain regions where they can use their high mobility to close with an enemy quickly before superior long range fire can take them out.

Elementals are though fast and agile mothers. An Elemental forced to close over open terrain can bounce along like a psychotic frog on crack and be very hard to hit. Shrapnel from arty strikes is going to be very unlikely to harm them and their rapid speed will make ranigng in on them to be difficult at best.

AT-AT's and AT-ST's will blast the bell out of them with accurate fire but once the Elementals get close to them the fight will be over.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-22 10:50am

Given they have air supprot persay, and still ignoring how they would fuck the Empire over.

I still give the Stormies because they have better combined force untis.

That and if we include the Viper Droids who gives a fuck about agility...they basically shot from and wait for the retaliation...or heck for close range, The stormies use the Emperor Pet Rancors he used in DE2.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-22 12:16pm

Slacker wrote:Bit of explaining is in order, I suppose. 4th Edition Battletech, that is, the rules system that's described by the CBT people as the "official representation of the Battletech universe", has three rules levels, named, of all things, Level 1, 2, and 3. Level 1 is the "Lostech" era between, oh, 2800 or so and 3030ish. It's variously known as "Old Skool, CrapTech, and basically covers the era of the Sucession Wars, when everything good was scarce and everything bad was everywhere.

That's the Lawsuit Level, where every single mecha was ripped from Macross and several other japanese cartoons and toys. Also the components were simpler: 3 sizes of lasers, 1 ppc, and a few ACs and missile types. This I remember from my old PC games (Battletech & Mechwarrior).

Level 2 covers Star League-era technology, the Clans, and everything after 3048 in-game. It's the stuff we're typically talking about when we're debating things about Battletech.

The UglyMech level, when they had to replace all robots because of lawsuits... so all Mechs became ugly and unrecognizable

This is what Mechwarrior 2 onwards have (I think)

Also we got weapons like "extended range small laser" and "reduced range large laser" and "reduced damage ppc" and "enlarged small missile", etc.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-22 12:23pm

I think that the GURPS mecha design rules are a tad more "realistic".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-22 12:50pm

DocMoriartty wrote:One bit about the BTech universe. It is stated several times that elementals are not designed for open field use. They are designed for urban or dense terrain regions where they can use their high mobility to close with an enemy quickly before superior long range fire can take them out.

We're talking about a big flat open field, gents.

Elementals are though fast and agile mothers. An Elemental forced to close over open terrain can bounce along like a psychotic frog on crack and be very hard to hit. Shrapnel from arty strikes is going to be very unlikely to harm them and their rapid speed will make ranigng in on them to be difficult at best.

How fast? How agile? How many qualitative arguments must we hear?

AT-AT's and AT-ST's will blast the bell out of them with accurate fire but once the Elementals get close to them the fight will be over.

If they take losses from that tactic (assuming these guys can get close to them without being obliterated after covering 15-20km over open terrain while under fire, for fuck's sake), they'll just send another wave with war droids and ground troops for more support.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-01-22 12:55pm

Darth Wong wrote:
DocMoriartty wrote:One bit about the BTech universe. It is stated several times that elementals are not designed for open field use. They are designed for urban or dense terrain regions where they can use their high mobility to close with an enemy quickly before superior long range fire can take them out.
We're talking about a big flat open field, gents.
Elementals are though fast and agile mothers. An Elemental forced to close over open terrain can bounce along like a psychotic frog on crack and be very hard to hit. Shrapnel from arty strikes is going to be very unlikely to harm them and their rapid speed will make ranigng in on them to be difficult at best.
How fast? How agile? How many qualitative arguments must we hear?
AT-AT's and AT-ST's will blast the bell out of them with accurate fire but once the Elementals get close to them the fight will be over.
If they take losses from that tactic (assuming these guys can get close to them without being obliterated after covering 15-20km over open terrain while under fire, for fuck's sake), they'll just send another wave with war droids and ground troops for more support.

Open field then ground to paste. In fact any enagement agsinst AT-AT's or other heavy imperial gear will be a ground to paste situation unless the battle is somewhere like Endor.

This is rather unfair engagement though. BTECH was a game first and a series of books second. Game first means all weapons in the game have ranges that are so short that it is just pathetic. The US Military of today fields weapons with greater ranges.

Elementals in the end though are merely more agile versions of SW Spacetroopers. Consider them in that vein and they work well. Try to make them tank busters in open fields and they deserve to die.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-22 01:32pm

Of course. Mind you, the thread started out in a more general sense, but as soon as we start talking about a force made up of only AT-AT's and AT-ST's, we're obviously looking at a Hoth force sub (it's not like they're so one-dimensional under most circumstances), and that WAS a big open field. Ideal environment for artillery. I don't know about, say, MOUT; the cost and logistical requirements of a mech and power-suited army is much higher than that of a more well-balanced army like the Stormies use, and BTech can't deploy resources as quickly as the Empire can anyway, which just makes it worse. If stormie E-11's aren't powerful enough to take down the armoured units, they would just switch to the big clonetrooper-style guns or maybe even T-21's, which will fry up mech units easily. Big mechs and heavy armour in cities would be a bad idea anyway, so it would basically be elementals against stormies. The big mechs would not fare well in an environment where infantry can easily take them down.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-22 02:15pm

So are the rules for Mekton z in it weapons can be nasty and hex ranges are longer 1 hex= 50 meters wepaons range 8 means that its long range is 64 *VEG* sure you get a -4 to hit but still the ranges are better than in BT

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-22 03:34pm

SPHA-T's aside, the Empire has quite a few more missile and artillery systems to support its walkers.

http://daltonator.net/mks/ISB/Ch9.htm

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-22 10:13pm

Well, Artillery's not solely the province of the Empire, either. Long Toms and Arrow IV platforms could both engage the AT-ATs at range, and Arrow IV platforms, especially mechs like the Naga or that model of the Catapult, are mobile enough to "Shoot and Scoot", which would mean that AT-ATs are going to have a helluva time knocking them out.

And AT-ATs, like I said, don't have what I would call a remarkable rate of fire. Yes, they could blow the hell out of the Elementals, but then it's going to let the Battlemechs into range, and then it's going to be all over except for the screaming the other way.

And Mike, I don't know what impression you've gotten that Battletech armies are "Mechs and battle armor only", but they're not. In fact, the most successful militaries in Btech history have been combined armed units. The Star League Defense Force, the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns, and later the Armed Forces of the Federated Commonwealth, all combined mechs, infantry, armor, aerospace fighters, artillery, and battle armor in a unifed force that trains together, is deployed together, and fights together. They also typically outpreform all mech forces terribly. See the Fourth Succession War for more details.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-22 10:17pm

Since there are lots of man-portable stormie weapons which can take down even the biggest mech, why do you think there would be a problem? The AT-AT's don't need a huge refire rate when one hit will take down any other unit, and I doubt the mech artillery will be useful against them, given some of the specs I've seen (eg- about a foot of RHA penetration, etc).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-22 10:21pm

Slacker wrote:Well, Artillery's not solely the province of the Empire, either. Long Toms and Arrow IV platforms could both engage the AT-ATs at range, and Arrow IV platforms, especially mechs like the Naga or that model of the Catapult, are mobile enough to "Shoot and Scoot", which would mean that AT-ATs are going to have a helluva time knocking them out.

And AT-ATs, like I said, don't have what I would call a remarkable rate of fire. Yes, they could blow the hell out of the Elementals, but then it's going to let the Battlemechs into range, and then it's going to be all over except for the screaming the other way.

And Mike, I don't know what impression you've gotten that Battletech armies are "Mechs and battle armor only", but they're not. In fact, the most successful militaries in Btech history have been combined armed units. The Star League Defense Force, the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns, and later the Armed Forces of the Federated Commonwealth, all combined mechs, infantry, armor, aerospace fighters, artillery, and battle armor in a unifed force that trains together, is deployed together, and fights together. They also typically outpreform all mech forces terribly. See the Fourth Succession War for more details.

The max range of any Battletech weapon is only something like 20,000 meters, for the Long Tom. Many Star Wars pieces are rated for 25+ klicks and WEG generally understates things. The horizon line is more likely the limit.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-22 10:30pm

Question: if combined-arms forces exist in the BTech universe and are as effective as one would surmise, then why do all-mech forces exist at all? They are hideously expensive, their logistical train is hopelessly unwieldy, and they get their asses kicked by a much less expensive combined-arms force.

PS. Keep in mind that even before an AT-AT get LOS of sight on them (at which point they're toast), shielded gunships at low altitude and TIE interceptors at high altitude would give them nightmares.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-22 10:32pm

IIRC, Victor Steiner-Davion was the first to mess around with combined forces in the "modern" era. Until then, everyone had just assumed Mechs were superior and didn't try using combined forces. I may be wrong, though, BT history isn't my strong point.