Mechs and Walkers: The future of warfair or a lame duck?

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-22 09:11pm

Only if it is just marginally larger than the soldier himself. Power armor is practical and an excellent idea, but any mecha purporting to replace a tank is a liar.

What makes you think that? Power armor requires ungodly amounts of maintenance and how can you fit the servos around joints? A better idea would be to use stormtrooper armor.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-01-22 09:17pm

jaeger115 wrote:What makes you think that? Power armor requires ungodly amounts of maintenance and how can you fit the servos around joints? A better idea would be to use stormtrooper armor.

The primary advantage power armor would have over stormtrooper armor is carrying capacity and speed. A sufficiently advanced suit (a la Robert A. Heinlein's starship troopers) gives the trooper the same armored protection as stormtrooper armor, plus far superior mobility and armament.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-22 09:22pm

jaeger115 wrote:
Only if it is just marginally larger than the soldier himself. Power armor is practical and an excellent idea, but any mecha purporting to replace a tank is a liar.
What makes you think that? Power armor requires ungodly amounts of maintenance and how can you fit the servos around joints? A better idea would be to use stormtrooper armor.

Servomotors are a bad idea, too much complexly and bulk. However an artificial muscle would be effective. Storm trooper armor is NBC protection and good body armor; it doesn't increase the solider carrying capacity. That's the main advantage of power armor, though fragment protection would be very useful, artillery is the biggest killer of infantry.

Power armor need not be totally enclosing either; the US Army is looking into a form of limited exoskeleton. It would boost carrying capacity and allow for greater endurance, but doesn’t really provide protection.

A Stormtrooper in such would be very effective.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-22 09:29pm

Servomotors are a bad idea, too much complexly and bulk. However an artificial muscle would be effective. Storm trooper armor is NBC protection and good body armor; it doesn't increase the solider carrying capacity. That's the main advantage of power armor, though fragment protection would be very useful, artillery is the biggest killer of infantry.

Power armor need not be totally enclosing either; the US Army is looking into a form of limited exoskeleton. It would boost carrying capacity and allow for greater endurance, but doesn’t really provide protection.

A Stormtrooper in such would be very effective.

I prefer the KISS system. After all, heavier weapons can still be carried on vehicles.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-22 09:33pm

jaeger115 wrote:
Servomotors are a bad idea, too much complexly and bulk. However an artificial muscle would be effective. Storm trooper armor is NBC protection and good body armor; it doesn't increase the solider carrying capacity. That's the main advantage of power armor, though fragment protection would be very useful, artillery is the biggest killer of infantry.

Power armor need not be totally enclosing either; the US Army is looking into a form of limited exoskeleton. It would boost carrying capacity and allow for greater endurance, but doesn’t really provide protection.

A Stormtrooper in such would be very effective.
I prefer the KISS system. After all, heavier weapons can still be carried on vehicles.

Not real practical to build a dugout to shelter a Hummer though.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-22 09:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:When rioters have AT-Guns, your are screwed millions of ways already.

That is like saying riot shields are useless because they can't stop HMG bullets.
Don't be ridiculous; nobody uses a 200 million dollar super-tech armoured vehicle to shut down a typical riot.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of an AT-ST, not an anime mecha, but you're right, I forgot to take cost into account.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2003-01-22 09:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:When rioters have AT-Guns, your are screwed millions of ways already.

That is like saying riot shields are useless because they can't stop HMG bullets.
Don't be ridiculous; nobody uses a 200 million dollar super-tech armoured vehicle to shut down a typical riot.

Rock Proof Armor: $2500
Second hand Auto Engine: $1000
Crappy electrical system: $500
Hand made steel structure: $5000
Spray paint: $20
Duct tape: $30
Natural Gas flamer: $200
Scaring the bejesus out of greenies: priceless

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-22 09:51pm

I don't see mechs becoming usefull. Even if you could get a mech to have more firepower, mobility, etc. then a tank they would never be popular in the military. Besides all the valid stuff about mechs being to damn tall for there own good, one factor really kills them: cost. Mechs have to have all kinds of extra euipment just to stay upright, never mind move. So good ol' tank would remain the most cost effective choice.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2003-01-22 09:55pm

Maybe if they were like Heavy Gears... though that's more like Power Armor.

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-01-22 10:00pm

If you can get them to work like the gears in Xenogears, then they wouldn't be that bad. Then again we don't have energy sources that tap into the fourth dimension yet.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-01-22 10:27pm

lame ducks. reasons already listed.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-22 10:30pm

VF5SS wrote:Maybe if they were like Heavy Gears... though that's more like Power Armor.

Bit big for PA. Smallest Gear is the Ferret at 3.6 meters tall. Mind, they've got one of the most logical progressions for how their mechs developed (worker construction/mining mechs pressed into combat service as a last ditch, turned out to be useful, developed from there), but they're still not terribly practical. Besides, a combined infantry/armor force would most likely tear apart most Heavy Gear forces, neural net or no. I like HG as much as the next fan, but it's not likely to become reality.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-22 11:01pm

weemadando wrote:Run for the hills men! Before this flames erupt forth and burn all us sinners!

I would respond, but I'm too busy laughing my ass off.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-01-23 12:08am

You know, if it walks, it can be tripped...

At this time, any walking mechanism would be too complex. However, if someone comes up with some sort of artificial muscle and a decent small efficient powersource with a lot of output, then that might change.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-23 12:16am

EmperorMing wrote:You know, if it walks, it can be tripped...

At this time, any walking mechanism would be too complex. However, if someone comes up with some sort of artificial muscle and a decent small efficient powersource with a lot of output, then that might change.

Then you just use the pwer source on a tank. Any breakthrough in material or power technology will make a tank more powerful and efficent as well, and the tank starts with massive advantages anyway.

For the mecha to catch up there muts be some massive advance in a technolgoy used on mecha but not tanks. Not too many of those.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-23 12:23am

someone said it earlier: any tank [or other military vehicle] will be superior to any mech given equal technological advancment

the reason is that to get a mech up and running requires enormous amounts of power. so much so that I doubt you could get one to walk using jet fighter engines as a powerplant.

suppose you had a powerful enough engine. that begs the question "why build a mech at all?" If you can make a large humanoid robot lift its own weight (many many tonnes) why not put that powerplant in a tank and make the TANK hover? Thats easier then having a mech lift itself, by far. It'd be like a harrier jump jet that doesnt waste shitloads of fuel hovering and can fire large sized rounds without damaging itself. Essentially you'd get SW hovertanks with the added bonus of supersonic speeds.

Now ask yourself, why would you build a large slow wasteful mecha when the same powerplant could propel a supersonic hovercraft with tank sized guns? answer is you wouldnt. the hovercraft would be all terrain, the mecha would be fucked up by forests, ice, water, sand dunes, etc. the hovercraft has no firing pivot, the mecha will fall over upon firing its first shot. the hovercraft is faster, stealthy, and smaller then the mecha, and can travel thousands of miles under its own power while the mecha needs transport craft. The hovercraft costs considerably less then the mecha.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-23 12:26am

What about something about as small as a tank, but has four legs and can run really, really fast? (think VOLTRON, people!)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-23 12:29am

I really doubt you could build a supersonic tank without at least using a ramjet, and going supersonic so low to the ground with such a poorly shaped object would be a weapon in itself from the shockwave.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-01-23 12:53am

Arrow Mk84 wrote:Do you see mechs and walkers (Btech, Star Wars, Robotech, whatever) as being useful war machines or just a lame duck idea? If you say lame duck, what do you think the future holds?

As for me, I'm on the fence at the moment.

We've debated this subject over and over here. For the most part, it's agreed that Mecha are just useless sci-fi fanboy wankfests. Too much mechanical complexity for too little gain. Military vehicles of the future will look very much like military vehicles of today, except that they'll have more sophisticated/reliable/cleaner powerplants and more lethal weapons. (If we're assuming no world-upsetting breakthroughs in physics, then you won't see any hovering vehicles that use "antigravity.")

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-01-23 03:13am

Quack, quack quack, quack quack quack quack quack quuuuuuuuuaaaaaack!

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-23 05:05am

Darth Wong wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:When rioters have AT-Guns, your are screwed millions of ways already.

That is like saying riot shields are useless because they can't stop HMG bullets.
Don't be ridiculous; nobody uses a 200 million dollar super-tech armoured vehicle to shut down a typical riot.

AT guns are totally unecessary. A manpack dumb weapon like an RPG would more than suffice. ATGMs would just make it even uglier.

Tanks have been placed in this situation before- you need infantry support for armor to survive (it is quite useful in cities- blasting strongpoints with it's main gun etc) but a big tall mecha will be that much more vulnerable and will have that much less weapons.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 06:31am

Ifr we're going with anything that has legs then it's either power armour like normal or maybe Fuchikoma style, that at least is somewhat viable and Fuchis have wheels fo fast mobility.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-23 06:36am

Why the hell is this humanoid mecha war machine thing so attractive anyway?

Like dammit why don't they make a future TANK game for once!

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 06:37am

Vympel wrote:Why the hell is this humanoid mecha war machine thing so attractive anyway?

Like dammit why don't they make a future TANK game for once!

The thoery of popular opinion overrules us, many like mechs and that's how it is.

I want another Bolo game, meself.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-01-23 06:49am

Vympel wrote:Why the hell is this humanoid mecha war machine thing so attractive anyway?

Like dammit why don't they make a future TANK game for once!

Think good old Ogre or the Rengenade Legion / Tog stuff.

Tanks Howercraft and bigass battles

I think TOG could give The Empire a run for their money should start a separate topic

/off surfing for info on TOG!

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Mechs and Walkers: The future of warfair or a lame duck?

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