Armour.A question

[Batman]

My bad. I was thinking terran technology armour there.

As I said I think it has been done but I do not remember the issues right now. You do not need to travel fast if you can stay alive for months inside your suit.

I'll just NOT think about how unpleasant that will be.

Simply ignores them outright, huh. Can we say no limits fallacy?

Realspace objects and beams just pass through them. Nothing no-limits about that because hyperenergy based weapons still work.

There used to be something about sufficiently powerful realspace stuff affecting hyperspace AND realspace phenomena merely being expressions of what happens in hyperspace. If that has been retconned since then, nevermind me.

Again, I was thinking terran level capships, which is firmly in the double-to triple-digit TT range (or used to be before they nerfed them).

"Conventional" firepower. There are many other weapon systems. For example it's not like weapons which can remove entire planets from realspace care about how much conventional firepower your shield can resist.

No. Until you can explain the mechanism by which they do so, however, you can also not assume they will be able to do so through said shields.

which is at least something we can quantify. DO calculate the 'hyperenergetische Primärwirkung' and show me why it would even apply to Wars or Trek shields in the first place. 4TT is 4TT is 4TT.

Perryverse shields can take far more brute firepower than TFCs and other hyperspace based weapons dish out.

As evidenced by-your saying so.

We have seen the mass of planets scattered by weapons which are not very effective against paratron shielded ships.

And those were naturally brute-force weapons and nothing technobabbly about them at all when that's the default in the Perryverse.

I would not go so far too assume that SW or Trek shields would be weakened the hyperenergetic anti-shield effects.

Thank you.

As I said, I've been out of the loop, but last I checked pre-nerf LFT ships actually had LESS firepower than 25th-35th century ones. The pre-nerf Entdecker class had a whopping 52GT per salvo, as opposed to a mid-25th century Galaxis' 240 and a Träger-class' 480. The Posbi ships I'll give you but which LFT ship had a triple figure TT salvo (and unless I missed something major they still can't put more than half of their firepower on one target due to he ship layout)?
And TFC are up to 600 rpm? Wicked!

The high-end NOVA-class had 8 triplet-batteries(3*2TT), 6 twin-batteries(2*3TT) and two pole quadruplet-batteries(wo do not know the caliber, however an older version had 4*4TT). That was a Tradom-war version which focused rather heavy on other weapon systems(there was even an ultrabattleship with only 30 TFCs in that cycle).
There have been ODIN-class vessels with 64*3 TT and 1*4 TT.
The small classes outgun the SI versions by far.
Posbis-ships had 50*6 TT during the Tradom war(for some reason both 2km and 3km cubes...).

I stand corrected, then.

It has been mentioned that the TFCs can interact with 5D fields generated by certain systems inside a ship and that's the reason why it's unwise to fire through a ship(unless it's hostile of course...).
However the Pobis(PR 1986) and small LFT cruisers (Andromeda mini-cycle) have shown the ability to fire all of their TFCs at once at one target. Maybe the problem was solved..or the cruisers are just small enough and the Posbis ships(without organic parts during the battle in 1986) did not care about the risk.

I was working off the assumption that TFC have to be pointing at the target to be able to fire at it. If that is no longer the case, hey, sucks to be me. I just wasn't aware of that change.

Pre-HI ENTDECKER-class ships are carriers(Omniträgerschiff in PR-terms) and have 20*2TT and 8*4TT(not 52 Gt ??),

The 52TT is as per the PR#2076 Datenblatt, Report 372. 8x4TT, 20x 1TT. I did NOT include the parasite craft.

Before you claim that they can not focus this firepower, even in the M87-cycle TFCs from 100 different units were able to put their fire at the same time in volume of 1km³ and 50000 arkonide ships(more or less the same technology as the LFT) were able to fire focus their fire at a 110 meter long ship during the Tradom war.

I NEVER claimed that they couldn't focus their firepower that precisely. I asked wether guns pointing in the opposite direction could be brought to bear.

The 10 shots per second TFCs or a cap-ship only thing afaik.

What, you're saying that smaller vessels have an even HIGHER ROF?
WAY wicked!!!

[Luzifer's right hand]

There used to be something about sufficiently powerful realspace stuff affecting hyperspace AND realspace phenomena merely being expressions of what happens in hyperspace. If that has been retconned since then, nevermind me.

Yeah sun, black-holes and similiar things have hyperspace effects.
However ships and stations with advanced semi-manifestation have ignored the side effects of such objects and most(if not all..the semi-stuff is a Castor invention and not mentioned in old issues) stuff which "phase-shifts" you is based on the semi-manifestation stuff.

No. Until you can explain the mechanism by which they do so, however, you can also not assume they will be able to do so through said shields.

They throw the targets into hyperspace. If you want to claim that a target could somehow stay in realspace without access to PR-hyperspace technology than provide evidence. To claim that something that can throw entire planets, stars and in some cases whole star system into hyperspace can not do the same to objects protected by shields which never have demonstrated such ability, SW shields for example do not even protect against SW stuff like hyperspace wormholes.

As evidenced by-your saying so..

All evidence in the series points in that direction. I know that it means nothing on this board but I asked Castor this very question and he agreed with me which is why im certain that my interpretation of the evidence is correct and not yours. You can read it on the guestbook of his homepage if you are interested(entry 2). You are the one who posts in "because I say so" mode.

And those were naturally brute-force weapons and nothing technobabbly about them at all when that's the default in the Perryverse.

The weapon effect of of intervall-cannons is pure mechanical force(mentioned multiple times in the series and in Castors commentary), that it is caused by technobabble is not relevent. Shields are also caused by technobabble, that makes shields like those of a swarm not less real when a star impacts it and is destroyed.

The 52TT is as per the PR#2076 Datenblatt, Report 372. 8x4TT, 20x 1TT. I did NOT include the parasite craft.

Ah. The data sheet are often full of mistakes(they have improved over time though..i still remember the fighter with "Septim-Parallelspurtriebwerk".
PR-2104

»Feuer!«, murmelte ich, und Tete Kramanlocky sowie sein Stellvertreter Paton Qerah, die Leiter der
Schiffsverteidigung, brachten das gewaltige Waffenarsenal des ENTDECKERS zum Einsatz:
Acht überschwere Transformkanonen mit Kalibern bis zu 4000 und 20 schwere mit Kalibern bis zu 2000
Gigatonnen nahmen bei einer Kernschussdistanz von 15 Millionen Kilometern Salvenfeuer auf.

Those stats are the same in all issues I looked at.

I was working off the assumption that TFC have to be pointing at the target to be able to fire at it. If that is no longer the case, hey, sucks to be me. I just wasn't aware of that change.

I NEVER claimed that they couldn't focus their firepower that precisely. I asked wether guns pointing in the opposite direction could be brought to bear.

You still need to point them at the enemy, however nothing speaks against turrents which can "point" inside the ships. It's not like the matter a ship is made of is an obstacle for a TFC. As I said I only know that the light cruisers and Posbi ships can use all of their TFCs at once against one target.
It's often mentioned that all TFCs fire at once when capital LFT ships fight but I know of no battle in which only one hostile was in weapon range. I do not feel the urge to jump to a conclusion.

What, you're saying that smaller vessels have an even HIGHER ROF?
WAY wicked!!!

Smaller ships have a lower rate of fire, the "Sammel-Entmaterialisator" needed for the ten shots per second was something introduced with the ENTDECKER-class and while such TFC-addons have been mentioned on board of other big LFT ships and on board of Posbi ships I have yet the find evidence for such addons on board of small ship(and I doubt I will as the technology is gone after the HI).

[Yuri2356]

Typically I'd Culturevulture this, but in the intrest of something new I'd undergo genetic modification and drive a Dalek suit.

Exterminate.

LP

You may not need to be modified. There are at least two occasions where a normal person climbed into a travel machine and used it just fine. (Once was in the original Dalek Serial, and the second was some time in the Second Doctor's era. IIRC) And in the dew Series, Dalek Sec revealed that, at very least, there's enough open space inside the casing of a Time-War Dalek to fit an adult human.

[Admiral Valdemar]

As a wanked out piece, the Gelfield Mk. XII from Contact would be nice.

For something more ground in reality, I love the suits in Revelation Space. No clunky knight's suit of armour with servos and a gun, but something sleek, organic like and powerful.

[Batman]

There used to be something about sufficiently powerful realspace stuff affecting hyperspace AND realspace phenomena merely being expressions of what happens in hyperspace. If that has been retconned since then, nevermind me.

Yeah sun, black-holes and similiar things have hyperspace effects.
However ships and stations with advanced semi-manifestation have ignored the side effects of such objects and most(if not all..the semi-stuff is a Castor invention and not mentioned in old issues) stuff which "phase-shifts" you is based on the semi-manifestation stuff.

I know semimanifestation is a recent development and personally, I think it makes a lot more sense than the earlier explanations. Doesn't change the fact that saying that realspace event won't affect them period is a no limits fallacy when we KNOW they interact with realspace to some degree (unless semimanifested ships become invisible)

No. Until you can explain the mechanism by which they do so, however, you can also not assume they will be able to do so through said shields.

They throw the targets into hyperspace.

Which weapons are we talking about? And by the way, that sort of sounds like a mechanism.

If you want to claim that a target could somehow stay in realspace without access to PR-hyperspace technology than provide evidence.

I can't recall claiming that.

To claim that something that can throw entire planets, stars and in some cases whole star system into hyperspace can not do the same to objects protected by shields which never have demonstrated such ability,

Which I never did,

SW shields for example do not even protect against SW stuff like hyperspace wormholes.

Where's that from? As you claim it I'll assume it happened somewhere, but I hadn't heard of it before. I didn't even know Wars had hyperspace wormholes.
This is going to be really embarrassing if it was in one of the pre-NJO novels.

As evidenced by-your saying so..

All evidence in the series points in that direction. I know that it means nothing on this board but I asked Castor this very question and he agreed with me which is why im certain that my interpretation of the evidence is correct and not yours. You can read it on the guestbook of his homepage if you are interested(entry 2). You are the one who posts in "because I say so" mode.

Okay, Perryverse shields can take far more firepower than TFC and other technobabble weapons dish out. They can do so by a factor of...?

And those were naturally brute-force weapons and nothing technobabbly about them at all when that's the default in the Perryverse.

The weapon effect of of intervall-cannons is pure mechanical force(mentioned multiple times in the series and in Castors commentary), that it is caused by technobabble is not relevent.

Yes it is. For example you can't assume it will interact with shields the same way it does with inert matter, what with one intricately involved with hyperspace and the other-not.

Shields are also caused by technobabble, that makes shields like those of a swarm not less real when a star impacts it and is destroyed.

Which has what exactly got to do with their technobabble nature meaning they won't necessarily act the same in different situations?

The 52TT is as per the PR#2076 Datenblatt, Report 372. 8x4TT, 20x 1TT. I did NOT include the parasite craft.

Ah. The data sheet are often full of mistakes(they have improved over time though..i still remember the fighter with "Septim-Parallelspurtriebwerk".
PR-2104

»Feuer!«, murmelte ich, und Tete Kramanlocky sowie sein Stellvertreter Paton Qerah, die Leiter der
Schiffsverteidigung, brachten das gewaltige Waffenarsenal des ENTDECKERS zum Einsatz:
Acht überschwere Transformkanonen mit Kalibern bis zu 4000 und 20 schwere mit Kalibern bis zu 2000
Gigatonnen nahmen bei einer Kernschussdistanz von 15 Millionen Kilometern Salvenfeuer auf.

Those stats are the same in all issues I looked at.

That's still only 72 TT in my book. Not exactly hundreds... As I said with the refire rate improvements, they come out way ahead, but per salvo their firepower is pretty benign compared to post-2400s Solarian Empire ships.

I was working off the assumption that TFC have to be pointing at the target to be able to fire at it. If that is no longer the case, hey, sucks to be me. I just wasn't aware of that change.
I NEVER claimed that they couldn't focus their firepower that precisely. I asked wether guns pointing in the opposite direction could be brought to bear.

You still need to point them at the enemy, however nothing speaks against turrents which can "point" inside the ships. It's not like the matter a ship is made of is an obstacle for a TFC.

Has anybody ever had the bright idea of actually building turrets like that?

As I said I only know that the light cruisers and Posbi ships can use all of their TFCs at once against one target.

As I don't know the layout of those ships this is of course speculation but might that be due to them having the TFC arranged in a way that enables them to fire on the same spot without having to fire through their own ship?
Assuming terran ships are still spherical, all you need to do to achieve that is have all the TFC in the same hemisphere.

What, you're saying that smaller vessels have an even HIGHER ROF?
WAY wicked!!!

Smaller ships have a lower rate of fire, the "Sammel-Entmaterialisator" needed for the ten shots per second was something introduced with the ENTDECKER-class and while such TFC-addons have been mentioned on board of other big LFT ships and on board of Posbi ships I have yet the find evidence for such addons on board of small ship(and I doubt I will as the technology is gone after the HI).

Ah. My bad.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I know semimanifestation is a recent development and personally, I think it makes a lot more sense than the earlier explanations. Doesn't change the fact that saying that realspace event won't affect them period is a no limits fallacy when we KNOW they interact with realspace to some degree (unless semimanifested ships become invisible)

The most recent version of such technology the "Schattenschirm) leaves a shadow-like effect in realspace. Objects, beams and gravity just pass through it.
Simulations(in-universe) suggest that no ammount of realspace firepower can threaten a ship protected by such a shield, as the simulations were also correct in regard to gravity based weapons used by servants of the chaotarchs I see no reason to assume that they are wrong(2361).

Ships under ATG are invisible, but that's nothing new..they are not even in the same "time" as an object not under ATG.

Which weapons are we talking about? And by the way, that sort of sounds like a mechanism.

Many weapons throw targets into hyperspace, the most common are gravity bombs.

Where's that from? As you claim it I'll assume it happened somewhere, but I hadn't heard of it before. I didn't even know Wars had hyperspace wormholes.
This is going to be really embarrassing if it was in one of the pre-NJO novels.

The thingy created by the Emperor by his force storm technique was called that. Dark Empire IIRC.

Okay, Perryverse shields can take far more firepower than TFC and other technobabble weapons dish out. They can do so by a factor of...?

We could get some kind of lower limit for system paratron shields as supergiant star at 0.5 was not considered a viable means of breaching the shield of the Sol system.(some kind because the star was a strong hyperenergy source too).

Resisting the firepower of PK weapons is more or less the only thing we have for ships. It's not like we could calc anything from sun-dipping events as they are 5D sources(and worse...Sol is 6D source and there were suns which rape time with their 5D effects...) and nobody has ever overwhelmed a ship paratron with something you could calc.
The only stat we have for paratron technology is that a microsecond long paratronrift can shunt up to 1.22 x 10^25 J into hyperspace(post Hi.)

There are some stats from data-sheets 1,2*10^30 W/m² for a USS shields(all layers) and 4,5*10^51 for the Basis but you can find some rather insane things in the data-sheets before Castor joined the team(not there are just little mistakes from time to time). I prefer to ignore the early data-sheets complelty(apart from the art itself of course).

Yes it is. For example you can't assume it will interact with shields the same way it does with inert matter, what with one intricately involved with hyperspace and the other-not.

I admit that you have a point in the case of hyperspace based shields.

Which has what exactly got to do with their technobabble nature meaning they won't necessarily act the same in different situations?

The point is that it does not matter at all if a star crashes into a shield are a giant wall in space. That the shield is created by technoabble is not important.

That's still only 72 TT in my book. Not exactly hundreds... As I said with the refire rate improvements, they come out way ahead, but per salvo their firepower is pretty benign compared to post-2400s Solarian Empire ships.

As I said it's a carrier....
Odin-class ships with 64 triplet TFCs have been mentioned in the series and even a post-Tradom(when the arkonide had anti-TFC systems) Nova-class had 116 TT.

Has anybody ever had the bright idea of actually building turrets like that?

They do not look like something out of WW2, there is no way to know how you "point" the emitters used at a target.

As I don't know the layout of those ships this is of course speculation but might that be due to them having the TFC arranged in a way that enables them to fire on the same spot without having to fire through their own ship?

Assuming terran ships are still spherical, all you need to do to achieve that is have all the TFC in the same hemisphere.

That is of course possible and would make sense for the cruisers.
But that the Posbi ships are designed that way seem not very likely to me.

[kinnison]

Niven's Known Space has it for armour at the moment, I think. There is a suit in one of his stories, worn by an ancient extinct race, that will stop literally anything. The suit in question had a stasis field generator built in; the alien in question survived planetary re-entry at approximately 0.5c without harm. This works because the stasis field stops time within it.

The only way of cracking a stasis field was to enclose it within another time-distort field; according to Nivenverse physics these fields cannot be layered.

In another Known Space book, a small ship used the local star as a brake, impacting at about 0.9c and going about halfway towards the stellar core on its way through.

The most famous use of this field was in Ringworld; the Liar was hit by the Ringworld defense laser, which was revealed in a later book to be powered by a solar flare.

Not bad armour!

[Imperial Overlord]

Stasis Fields are not armour. The artificial single megamolecule with reinforced bonds General Products hulls are armour. Almost totally indestructable, although enough antimatter will take them out. They tend to be transparent to certain wavelengths and have a few gaps for equipment and hatches, but are almost invulnerable. Stack a stasis field on top of that and it gets really gross.

[Ford Prefect]

For something more ground in reality, I love the suits in Revelation Space. No clunky knight's suit of armour with servos and a gun, but something sleek, organic like and powerful.

I'm reading Revelation Space now, and I'm actually really looking forward to that suit's appearance.

[kinnison]

Imperial, most of the armour discussed in this thread relies on some sort of forcefield for most of its effectiveness, so what's so different about a stasis field?

As for GP hulls, I sort of agree (although you'd better be sure that none of GP's customers see in the wavelengths of your enemy's lasers) but this stuff doesn't protect against really big kinetic or explosive impacts. Because the hull may stand up to it, but the triple-digit-G shock loadings from the impact smash the crew to jelly along with, possibly, quite a lot of the internal machinery of the ship.

GP hulls don't protect against gravity fields either; see Neutron Star.

[Imperial Overlord]

Of course they don't provide protection from gravity, their merely uber wank as opposed to reality raping. A stasis field stops time from the inhabitants, immobilizing them when it is on. It isn't armour at all. I do concede that more than a few people mention force fields, but unlike stasis fields they don't freeze the user while they are on.

[Pilgrim]

Lessee... the armor I want I don't think has been written about. The stuff from Hyperion is close, but moves right out into space fantasy.

What it would need:

• Non-invasive neural interface.
  High speed.
  Flight would be nice but not necessary.
  With the ability to survive said high speed. Some sort of fluid or gel for the pilot to cushion the g-shocks.
  Diamond or diamondoid armor.
  Good ecm and camouflage, ideally active.
  Sensor booms to look around corners without risking the body of the suit (à la Appleseed).

Anyone got anything like this in what they've read?

[kinnison]

Lessee... the armor I want I don't think has been written about. The stuff from Hyperion is close, but moves right out into space fantasy.

What it would need:

• Non-invasive neural interface.
  High speed.
  Flight would be nice but not necessary.
  With the ability to survive said high speed. Some sort of fluid or gel for the pilot to cushion the g-shocks.
  Diamond or diamondoid armor.
  Good ecm and camouflage, ideally active.
  Sensor booms to look around corners without risking the body of the suit (à la Appleseed).

Anyone got anything like this in what they've read?

The Night's Dawn Trilogy universe is probably capable of this - starship pilots, at least Adamist ones, have bodies laced with nanomechanical skeletons, down to cellular level, which stiffen when subject to high double digit-G acceleration and make it harmless. Virtually everyone also seems to have a hell of a lot of nanoelectronic hardware, so a control interface shouldn't be a problem.

However, the relevant armour is not explicitly described in that series - but then he doesn't get down to the nitty-gritty much.

On a slightly less speculative level, Drexler (sp?), one of the leading lights of nanotech speculation, has described a suit with very similar properties to this. I can't remember the name of the book - sorry.