40K force subsitution...

[2000AD]

I don't know if this is overwritten by any of the novels/et al (I don't like the 40K setting, but I like the system), but Exterminatus isn't that impressive. In the core rulebook, part of the fluff text describes a fleet that tried to 'BDZ' a planet of tentacled Beholder-like creatures. When they tried, though, the planetary defenses came to life and whipped their tails. So, obviously, the IoM can't BDZ at will...it takes some preparation time, and if there are planteray defenses, they can't at all.

Rememebr that Exterminatus does not mean bombard a planet till nothing lives. It means kill everything on the planet. There are many different ways of doing this, eg. redirected asteroid bombardment, conventional bombardment (BDZ), virus bombing, etc.

quote:
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Originally posted by NecronLord:
Humm the Necrons have been around for 600 Million years. They never developed warp tech. Their FTL is leagues more advanced than the Empires. Their warships can annihalate star systems they have destroyed galaxies. Their tech is sufficient to cut off an alternate dimension, completely.
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If the Necrons are this powerful why havn't they ass raped everything in the galaxy?

[SylasGaunt]

Because the Necrons like every other elder race aren't in their prime at the moment, however unlike the Eldar they're picking up strength as more and more tomb worlds become active and the C'Tan start rebuilding their strength after their 60 million year slumber.

[NecronLord]

quote:
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Originally posted by NecronLord:
Humm the Necrons have been around for 600 Million years. They never developed warp tech. Their FTL is leagues more advanced than the Empires. Their warships can annihalate star systems they have destroyed galaxies. Their tech is sufficient to cut off an alternate dimension, completely.
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If the Necrons are this powerful why havn't they ass raped everything in the galaxy?

According to Farseer Maechu, in most futures they do. Their current back yard science project is to cut off the warp, thus removing all ftl from everyone else, and eliminating those pesky psykers.

[xiophen]

Humm the Necrons have been around for 600 Million years. They never developed warp tech. Their FTL is leagues more advanced than the Empires. Their warships can annihalate star systems they have destroyed galaxies. Their tech is sufficient to cut off an alternate dimension, completely.

Okay. So there's a limit. But from what I've seen of them, wouldn't you think that something like, say, the Orcs or the Eldar seriously lack the industrial or scientific capacity to outperform the Empire. Remember, we're not talking an Imperial battle group with no support, right? We're talking THE WHOLE EMPIRE, planets and resources and all, plop surrounded by 40K hostile forces. That's a big pool of shit for the 40Kers to wade through.

?!?!? orcs can build guns out of wire and boxes? the orKs alone would out number the GE by millions to one *thank god they fight eachother more then anyone else.

As for the Eldar they can sing into exixtance what ever they need they have detroyed stars can cros a galaxy in a few minutes of time. REmember the Eldar no where at their hieght were with a few other younger races begining to drive the necrons back and had weapons that could kill the necrons. While granted the Eldar arnt at their peak but by fluff from farseer it was stated that worse case senerio where the Eldar and IOM actuaully tried to commit genocidal war on each other the eldar in their diminished capacity could still defeat the IOM.

As foir industry for war the IOM has been fighting war on a galixy level for 10k year. they have millions of worlds to pool resources from the IOM is immence it spands 70k LY from the BFG and 40k rule books. The biggest advantage the GE has against chaos, orks, nids and Tau is that they can get their fast though with the exception of tau to ofset the Ork and nid numbers somewhat *though the millions of ships for a small hive fleet to the billions of ships for the current fleet would be a problem* The GE goal is to survive from the short term to the big turn to ramp up production to the point where they can sustain a war from 5 different antagonists all of which are reoughly equal in size or greater.

[Darth_Shinji]

If the Necrons are this powerful why havn't they ass raped everything in the galaxy?

They need to eat the mental equivelent of a star I've heard to get back to full power. Also most of these powers mentioned seem to be only the capabilities of the C'tan themselves. So Necrons themselves while dangous, can't go around destroying star sysems. (By all apperances at least.)

On-topic I think it would be an intresting switch. On the positive side they have hyper drive and better organition. While on the other hand they lack any psyic tech and seems to be smaller in man-power. (I know everyones said these, but let me inerate my opionions.)

Personal I think its problems overweight its advantages. While the Imps could make pyc-tech evantually and even man-power. They still have that intail period when all of these wars are going on. And they are not equiped to hndle them. I mean what would happen in a black crusade, or a Waagh, or the hive-fleet (Which is going on), happen? Or all at the same time?

[NecronLord]

If the Necrons are this powerful why havn't they ass raped everything in the galaxy?

They need to eat the mental equivelent of a star I've heard to get back to full power.

You heard wrong. They need to eat stars themselves, and have begun to do so Necron Codex Page 5. Their primary sustanance is stars, they eat life forms because they have more flavour, as you would eat a sweet.

Also most of these powers mentioned seem to be only the capabilities of the C'tan themselves. So Necrons themselves while dangous, can't go around destroying star sysems. (By all apperances at least.)

All the C'tan can do is consume stars and redirect that energy. Their technology was created by the necrons. The c'tan are adept at directing warfleets and the like, and in actual combat are exceedingly dangerous, but the technology was designed by the Necrons. The Black Hole weaponry and so on are aboard necron warships. (Those things that kick the shit out of IoM warships are in fact "Harvest ships" they are the Necron equivalent of tractors)

[white_rabbit]

Are you positive that the Blackhole weapons are mounted on Necron Ships NL ?


The Codex actually says that its "C'tan" using black holes to destroy Solar Systems, and at that time the C'tan probably wouldnt have needed Stasis tomb equipped vessels

GE can take 'em out their Mechanized Suits with their walkers

Really ?

And when the Manta Missile Destroyers blast the hell out of several Battalions worth of AT-ATs....what then

Its rather telling that the Empire would actually have to use Walkers to take what are in effect Tau Heavy Infantry, Tau also use rather nasty grav-tanks armed with some seriously powerful Railguns, as well as missile tanks etc.

The basic trooper is armed with a rifle that can smash through two armour Tau without a problem literally cutting them in half, they have cloaked stealth troopers in powered armour, combat drones, lots of nasty missiles.

the Empires numbers would allow them to beat the Tau, but in any ground engagement they Tau are going to give them a seriously bloody nose.

[NecronLord]

Are you positive that the Blackhole weapons are mounted on Necron Ships NL ?

The Codex actually says that its "C'tan" using black holes to destroy Solar Systems, and at that time the C'tan probably wouldnt have needed Stasis tomb equipped vessels

I would take them to be the 'Weapons of Godlike Power' described in my sig. Anything else is a redundant multiplication of terms. Also the C'tan would need starships to travel faster than C. Consider, the Eldar can extinguish stars, it's not that hard for the Necrons to generate a black hole, considering their mastery of intertialess drive technology and superdense materials (living metal being unscratchable by 15+ gigawatt lasers ) All they would have to do is disable the star, and then push on it. Considering what the ship in the biginning of nightbringer is doing, that would be fairly easy for them.

[Darth_Shinji]

You heard wrong. They need to eat stars themselves, and have begun to do so Necron Codex Page 5. Their primary sustanance is stars, they eat life forms because they have more flavour, as you would eat a sweet.

Then what was the point in working for the C'tan if all of that power was only the Necrontry tech? I always though those ships were powered by or were avatars of the C'tan. If I had my book with me I'll would see if I could find what made me think that. Also that ships of godlike power were apart of it. But there was more.

[NecronLord]

The Nightbringer's ship is imbued with a fraction of his power. In answer, Necron tech is godlike (they are over 600,000,000 years old) The C'tan won the war due not only to their raw power but also because they acted as a rallying point for the surviving Necrontyr. The Necrontyr did not on the whole work for the C'tan until the C'tan turned them into necrons. I would say only about half of them were C'tan worshippers. Not that it matters, The Necrons are capable of unleasing such curb stomping, how they developed that ability is irrelevant.

[xiophen]

WEll technically its GW's traditional draw. The Old one won the first war against the Necrontry. the necs got the C'tan involved who promptly through a long war beat the old wond but in turn were fought to a stand still by the younger races. the true outcome of the war was indoubt when the enlsavers attacked and pushed both the younger races and the necrons back the Necrons in turn admited defeat the knew they couldn't win with the current situation *that and they had eaten each other* so they got smart took the old stasus tech that the necrons had and went into stasus and let the younger races fight the enslavers. which consequently we know from the rise of the Orks and Eldar they won. Technically at best you can describe it as a draw at worse a defeat, considering in the end it was the Necrons and C'tan that went into hiding while the younger races went on to defeat the enslavers and take control of most of the galaxy.

[white_rabbit]

Also the C'tan would need starships to travel faster than C

IIRC in the novels Nightbringer manages to do rather well without a Necron vessel to transport him, getting to a different star system without the aid of a necron vessel.

would take them to be the 'Weapons of Godlike Power' described in my sig.

godlike power can be applied to even your basic Necrontyr particle whips and lightening arcs really, Godlike power is too vague.

At full power the C'tan wouldnt need the Necron ships, while the Necron might have the technology, its still stated that the C'tan do the system killing.

[NecronLord]

Also the C'tan would need starships to travel faster than C

IIRC in the novels Nightbringer manages to do rather well without a Necron vessel to transport him, getting to a different star system without the aid of a necron vessel.

Yes, but that may have taken hundreds of years, which is nothing in 40K.

would take them to be the 'Weapons of Godlike Power' described in my sig.

godlike power can be applied to even your basic Necrontyr particle whips and lightening arcs really, Godlike power is too vague.

At full power the C'tan wouldnt need the Necron ships, while the Necron might have the technology, its still stated that the C'tan do the system killing.[/quote]

By supernova prehaps, but they can't generate the mass to create a black hole. Even if they could will a star into becoming a black hole, it's planets would still orbit it quite happily. (minus the light going out) Said black holes must be a conventional weapon, or the C'tan have the ability to spontaneously create mass, something I've never heard of them being able to do.

[Skelron]

Also for the Empire to bare in mind their vaunted Planetary shields will be a lot less use to them, The Eldar very often have Web Way exits/entrances On a Planets surface, many of these capable of allowing Full Armies to exit at will, that means that the first warning for an Imperial Planet is exactly the same as an IoM's warning, when the first shots are fired, perhaps not even this much. (As with a Farseer directing the attack the first few garrison's could have communication's cut before they realise they are under attack.) This allows the Eldar to strike when and how they wish... With Suppieor weaponly and training. This will lead to a havy buildup of resources being needed on all planets until it can be determined which planets the Eldar are interested in. (an almost impossible task) The drain on Empire Ground resources has begun. Then we know that Ork Teleporter's are Warp based meaning any Spacehulk that appears will be able to bypass Planetary shields... Ork war paryties are notouriously difficult to put down, as a single surviving Ork can lead to a future WAAARRGGHH on the planet as it breeds through Spore's not Sexually.

Chaos will spruing up unguarded, initially the Emporer may not even view them as being bad, they are close in nature to the Dark Side of the force after all, but they will not share power with him, Nid's will steam roll as they always have across the Empire, once they land on a planet tjhe Empire has nothing capable of stopping them. Bio-Titans will dominate the battlefields...

The Necron's have been dealt with else where

One on one the Empire might be able to survive these threats... (Might being subjective I don't think they can but it's close) but with all of the threats of the 40K universe I don't think they have a chance of holding it together.

[2000AD]

Bio-Titans will dominate the battlefields...

What about massed AT-ATs? Those massive siege turbolasers could probably be used on them as well .(not the ones from AoTC, the big mofo's) Orbital bombardment like what Wedge did in the NJO? Size matters not?(dark jedi)

[white_rabbit]

Bio-Titans will dominate the battlefields...

What about massed AT-ATs? Those massive siege turbolasers could probably be used on them as well .(not the ones from AoTC, the big mofo's) Orbital bombardment like what Wedge did in the NJO? Size matters not?(dark jedi)

Massed fire will definately be the way to go against Bio-Titans, although a relitively recent evolution of Bio-titans has been Bio-plasmic energy shielding to match Titan grade Void shields.

Yes, but that may have taken hundreds of years, which is nothing in 40K.

Less than 3 months to move 70,000 lightyears for the weak as a baby Nightbringer in the novel.

By supernova prehaps, but they can't generate the mass to create a black hole. Even if they could will a star into becoming a black hole, it's planets would still orbit it quite happily. (minus the light going out) Said black holes must be a conventional weapon, or the C'tan have the ability to spontaneously create mass, something I've never heard of them being able to do

Theres a lot of assumptions for either side, Im sorry, but until theres more information IMO its the C'tan "warping reality" not the Necron technology that vapes systems.

[NecronLord]

Fine. You call it majico C'tan makinging black holes on their own. I'll call it necron technology.

[Vejut]

Skelon, reasons for just up and declaring sheilds permiable to warp teleports?

Orks are no problem:
Ork: WAAAAGGGHHHH!
Stormie, 100+m away:
(blaster fire)
(ork falls, missing chest.)

Or better
(E-WEB fire)
(same result)

You have one group whose main strategy is getting in close enough Hand to Hand combat is actually a viable option vs. a group with very high powered ranged weapons....

Bio-Titans dominating feild: Watch AoTC: Those heavy Turbolasers in the clone army were knocking down fairly large spacecraft. I would say that speaks well of thier ability to take down a large, fleshy, slower target...

Evidence for superior weaponry on the part of the eldar? it could just as easily be that a blaster would obviously make mincemeat of a Terminator.

and what will the precog capable emporer be doing during all this? How about his dark jedi? Hell, he made a deal with the Ssi-ruuk, why not with chaos too?

[consequences]

The Tyranid invasion is pathetically easy to deal with, withdraw defenses, wait for them to move in to take a planet's biomass, hyper the DS in, and blow the planet up in their faces. The same can be accomplished without the DS with a few ships commiting a BDZ.
There is also the question of whether the Tyranids have any chance of breaching a full planetary shield.
Whoohoo, billions of Imperial Guardsmen, turn the Empire's industrial machine loose, and produce trillions of battle droids in six months or less.

[SylasGaunt]

Skelon, reasons for just up and declaring sheilds permiable to warp teleports?

That would be because the Warp doesn't exist in SW and thus their shields would in no way be set up to block it?

Orks are no problem:
Ork: WAAAAGGGHHHH!
Stormie, 100+m away:
(blaster fire)
(ork falls, missing chest.)

More like Ork gets shot in the chest and keeps coming. Or if the Stormy does have his blaster power turned up the ork falls down and the stormtrooper gets dogpiled by all the rest of them.

You have one group whose main strategy is getting in close enough Hand to Hand combat is actually a viable option vs. a group with very high powered ranged weapons....

Just like the Imperium has yet the orks still manage to get in there.

Bio-Titans dominating feild: Watch AoTC: Those heavy Turbolasers in the clone army were knocking down fairly large spacecraft. I would say that speaks well of thier ability to take down a large, fleshy, slower target...

You underestimate the agility of titan scale weapons (though I don't know how a Bio-titan compares to an Imperium titan in that department).

Evidence for superior weaponry on the part of the eldar? it could just as easily be that a blaster would obviously make mincemeat of a Terminator.

Well a Necron can take something on the order of 15-20 gigawatts and is less tough than a termie.

and what will the precog capable emporer be doing during all this? How about his dark jedi? Hell, he made a deal with the Ssi-ruuk, why not with chaos too?

What Dark Jedi? As far as I recall the closest thing to a Jedi aside from vader that the Emperor had were a few crimson guards and darktroopers with limited force abilities.

And I can actually see him making a deal with Chaos.. notably with Tzeentch.. but I can tell you those deals are all going to end badly for him.

[Vejut]

True enough, I guess.
What's the power figure for a blaster? It was taking large chunks out of the DS wall, and I'd think that was a tad tougher than an Ork. IIRC, Lasguns, BTW, until very recently, didn't even have stocks (which really helps at range.) [bolters still don't]...I'd also wonder about their power level.

Numbers for the titans?

The Termie comment was just me shoving out something I figgured would help get the "No evidence" point across. Honestly, I'd suspect Termie armor could stop at least an E-11, but I didn't have any evidence, either way.

Sorry, Meant stuff like his emporer's hands, Crimson Guard, etc. Mainly meant as a counter to the Farseer prediction thing: Impy has it too...

And I don't know, deals with chaos may end bad with the citizens of the empire, but as for the emporer himself, he'd probably fit in pretty well....

[SylasGaunt]

True I could definitely see Tzeentch taking him on as a servant, Palpy's certainly sneaky enough to qualify, maybe even daemon prince material... of course I don't know whether to call that a win for 40K or the Empire.

What's the power figure for a blaster? It was taking large chunks out of the DS wall, and I'd think that was a tad tougher than an Ork. IIRC, Lasguns, BTW, until very recently, didn't even have stocks (which really helps at range.) [bolters still don't]...I'd also wonder about their power level.

I recall one putting the big clonetrooper rifles at 8 mJ, and even a piddly Laspistol can burn through quite a bit of rock with a shot, but i'll have to find my book to check the figures. As for bolters well Adeptus Mechanicus praetorians with heavy bolters and plasma guns were doing more damage to attacking Necrons than a 15 gigawatt laser mesh so that says something.

Numbers for the titans?

I'll have to look but I recall some mention of city destroying weapons in Hereticus, and Storm of Iron had a leak from a Titan plasma cannon annihilating entire troop formations.

The Termie comment was just me shoving out something I figgured would help get the "No evidence" point across. Honestly, I'd suspect Termie armor could stop at least an E-11, but I didn't have any evidence, either way.

Ah.

Sorry, Meant stuff like his emporer's hands, Crimson Guard, etc. Mainly meant as a counter to the Farseer prediction thing: Impy has it too...

True, but the Farseers seem to do a much better job (Like Eldrad Ulthran predicting a tyranid hive fleet coming close to an Eldar Maiden world thousands of years in advance and setting things up so that at a precise time an Ork fleet would end up attacking the tyranids and diverting them off course).

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

Well a Necron can take something on the order of 15-20 gigawatts and is less tough than a termie.

uhhh.... How is a Necron less tough that a termie??? Necrons can reform after being turned into blobs of molten metal. I would very much like to see a termie do that.

[SylasGaunt]

Actually as I recall you hit a necron with a weapon that slags it and it's done. Termies can stand around inside plasma reactors and get stepped on by titans.

[consequences]

Probably referring to physical damage necessary to impair function, without accountng for the Necron's ability to rebuild themselves.