Moderator: NecronLord
Of course. Why do you think he led the Crusade from the front instead of staying on Terra, slowly being driven insane by a army's worth of bureacrats?NecronLord wrote:The Emperor seems to have been perfect in every way. Except that he sucked as a politician (which is presumably why he was so dependant on the Sigillite) and thus mis-managed his sons before the Heresy.
The artbooks go into more detail, but basically, Magnus said 'Nooo, I'm being a SORCERER, nuts to you goldy boy' right after Nikea. After that, regardless of his intentions, he was trafficking with warp entites and so on, even when his 'supposedly' revered father had told him not to, on pain of death. If Fulgrim got what he deserved for being dumb, Magnus and the Sons doubly so. The Emperor actually said 'More sorcery, and I will kill you and yours' to him, in public at Nikea.2000AD wrote:For a start Magnus' sorcery could have been used for good and that's what he was trying to do.
Secondly, saying "Magnus just eventually said 'sod it'" kinda glosses over the fact that one of his brothers came and slaughtered his people, destroyed his lifes work and kicked the shit out of him (IIRC Index Astartes said Russ broke Magnus' back) all while he was trying to help 'the good guys'.
That to me seems to be a more justifiable reason for siding with Horus, rather than "he just said 'sod it'".
That's contrary to the Imperial Truth, which is presumably drummed into him as everyone else (Except, oddly enough, Magnus) in the Legions. The Eldar don't have soul-stones, they have shiny geegaws around their necks. There's no such thing as gods, afterlives, or any of that, remember?I have little sympathy for Fulgrim given that he makes 2 massive mistakes.
1- Not being able to link picking up a sword that had a bunch of aliens having an orgy round it and the appearence of a strange voice in his head. He doesn't even make the connection when he kills a Wraithlord and feels the life leave it's soulstone. If the Eldar can keep the souls of dead people alive in things, then maybe other races can too, especially when said sword has a big stone in it.
True, but it states that he notices the soul leaving the stone when he crushes it. He doesn't even have to believe it's a soul stone, it is alien after all, all he has to do is make the connection between the Eldar stone apparently holding a counciousness and the stone on his sword that he pays a lot of attention to right after he crushes the soul stone.That's contrary to the Imperial Truth, which is presumably drummed into him as everyone else (Except, oddly enough, Magnus) in the Legions. The Eldar don't have soul-stones, they have shiny geegaws around their necks. There's no such thing as gods, afterlives, or any of that, remember?
Which he was warned about in advance, he was even told the nature of chaos, it seems, and which, because of his disobedience, damned Earth. Magnus' message ruined the Emperor's scheme to capture the webway, and just for good measure, turned Earth into a demon-world; the only thing stopping the billions-population homeworld of man being a capering demon-nest is the Emperor ensconced on the throne.2000AD wrote:I haven't read the artbooks, but it doesn't look like they stray too far from the Index Astartes.
Magnus made a dumb descision while still having good intentions, Fulgrim just made a plain dumb descision.
Magnus, despite disobeying his father about using sorcery, was still loyal to his cause, just like Eisenhorn and Ravenor are still loyal despite becoming Radicals. He only stopped being loyal when he had all his acts (albeit some of them dumb) trying to prove his worth thrown back in his face with a nice 'fuck you' from the Space Wolves attached.
And at that point he's clearly under magical compulsion. Remember how part of him wants to just leave the demon sword where it landed after he used it to distract Khaine, but is practically dragged over into picking it up?True, but it states that he notices the soul leaving the stone when he crushes it. He doesn't even have to believe it's a soul stone, it is alien after all, all he has to do is make the connection between the Eldar stone apparently holding a counciousness and the stone on his sword that he pays a lot of attention to right after he crushes the soul stone.
However the wording afterwards does make it look like the sword manipulated him to forget about it as soon as possible.
Frankly, when there's a greater demon's metaphorical dick in your brain, I can easily forgive lack of rationality. When you're told what's at stake, and still decide to be a sorcerer, because you like it...However this still doesn't absolve him of the retarded descision to trust the very sword he just admitted had betrayed and corrupted him.
Turned Earth into a deamon world? Where the fuck is that mentioned? I know Flase Gods and Index Astartes mentioned the wards on the Emperors Palace being screwed but I dont recall any thing mentioned about turning it into a deamon world.NecronLord wrote:Which he was warned about in advance, he was even told the nature of chaos, it seems, and which, because of his disobedience, damned Earth. Magnus' message ruined the Emperor's scheme to capture the webway, and just for good measure, turned Earth into a demon-world; the only thing stopping the billions-population homeworld of man being a capering demon-nest is the Emperor ensconced on the throne.
I'm not debating that he made a stupid descison. And given that Horus isn't dancing around going "Wahoo, the gods have told me Earth is fucked, this whole thing just got way easier" in the latest books I doubt Earth is 'ker-ploded'.Magnus was warned, some portion of his minions said they should just send the message astropathically, but because he wanted to show the Emperor how great his new sorcery was, he ker-ploded Earth.
Hence why I said:And at that point he's clearly under magical compulsion. Remember how part of him wants to just leave the demon sword where it landed after he used it to distract Khaine, but is practically dragged over into picking it up?
Having re-read this bit and others I'm going to conceed that maybe he wasn't as retarded as I initially made out, as it's now obvious that the deamon in the sword is on deus ex machina levels of mental manipulation seeing as it has a primach wrapped around it's little finger.Page 310-311 wrote: Fulgrim's hand itched to reach out and grip the sword once more, but a screaming portion of his mind begged him not to.
He took a faltering step towards the weapon, his hand out stretched, though he could not remember consciously ordering it to do so. His balckened fingers trembled and his muscles strained as though forcing their way through an invisible barrier. The siren song of the sword was strong, but so was his will, and what remained of his vision of the dark gods birth stayed his hand for a moment.
At the end of the book it would appear that killing Ferrus freed Fulgrim from the swords influence (like how in the older material almost killing the Emperor made Horus come to his senses and simularly Luthar and Lion'el Johnson, it waits to be seen if these are over ridden by the new books). Given that he's sitting there lamenting everything and calling the people that sided with Horus fools I'm willing to believe he was thinking with a relatively clear head at that point.Frankly, when there's a greater demon's metaphorical dick in your brain, I can easily forgive lack of rationality.
And because you think it can be beneficial. Lets not gloss over the fact that Magnus thought sorcery was a big part of mankinds future and that it could be used for good.When you're told what's at stake, and still decide to be a sorcerer, because you like it...
The Emperor, in his not very infinite wisdom, was attempting to seize the webway from the eldar, and doing so from his own basment on his most populated planet. When Magnus sent his signal, it overloaded and destroyed the Palace's wardings, allowing demons to get in, and confining the Emperor permanantly to sitting in it and holding the demons back with his mind powers.2000AD wrote: Turned Earth into a deamon world? Where the fuck is that mentioned?
And the human parts of Servitor #283782 on the Vengeful Spirit can try and fight its enslavement. That doesn't mean it's going to succeed.The section you mentioned does imply he's trying to fight it though:
Remember, Primarchs don't seem quite as tough as their legends make out. A 'mere' wraithlord injures him considerably here. What's more, the Emperor appears to, in the new fluff, not bothered to have told most of the the Primarchs that demons and such exist, making it even harder to resist if you don't know what you're dealing with.it's now obvious that the deamon in the sword is on deus ex machina levels of mental manipulation seeing as it has a primach wrapped around it's little finger.
And he still is, in the 41st Millennium, as far as we know. He's just trapped inside his head, thinking relatively clearly. Demons have never been that good at controlling what people think; once possession is relatively advanced, they seem to derive pleasure from having their victim aware. Carnelian in Chaos Child springs to mind; he knows exactly what's going on, but has no control of his actions until Eldrad Ulthran shows up.At the end of the book it would appear that killing Ferrus freed Fulgrim from the swords influence (like how in the older material almost killing the Emperor made Horus come to his senses and simularly Luthar and Lion'el Johnson, it waits to be seen if these are over ridden by the new books). Given that he's sitting there lamenting everything and calling the people that sided with Horus fools I'm willing to believe he was thinking with a relatively clear head at that point.
It was/is, according to the Emperor's plan. But that doesn't necesserily mean the way he want about it was good. Despite his intentions, taking to sorcery in secret, while appearing to comply, after being 'told things only he and the Emperor knew about the warp' seems to be a very, very, very foolish idea.And because you think it can be beneficial. Lets not gloss over the fact that Magnus thought sorcery was a big part of mankinds future and that it could be used for good.
"Very useful." Of course, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence (especially, I'd imagine) still managed a 5:1 kill ratio against the Sons on Prospero, so they're hardly indespensible.And to an extent it was. It gave him a chance to try and persuade Horus to stay good and provided forewarning of the Heresy.
I'm guessing it also provided numerous military benefits in the campaigns they persecuted as well. I cant remember anywhere this is explicitly stated but given how effective psychic powers are in battle it's not that much of a jump to a conclusion.
Well, there's no disputing taste. But I can't think too well of him for deciding 'I'll pretend to comply, and then take what I full well know is a seriously dangerous practice underground.
So to recap my position I still think that Magnus is the more tragic character.
Supposedly he did, or at least, told Magnus something of great importance about the nature of the Warp. Whether or not Magnus was privy to the Emperor's long term plans is speculative.Imperial Overlord wrote:Considering Magnus is a product of sorcery, and his own skill at it, I think the real problem is the Emperor not taking Magnus aside and saying "look, these are the reasons I have to restrict psychic activity for now."
Yes. The more that's revealed about the Emperor, the more disappointing he is. You'd have thought his efforts to break the webway could have been done somewhere near 'the front' after all. His 'make super-psykers' machine in Faith and Fire (assuming it really was his) was plenty-distant from Earth, after all.Of course, it is in the treatment of his Primarchs that the Emperor continually fucks up. He keeps them in the dark, lies to them, and lets the grow insecure, distant, and dissatisfied.
I think he didn't realize just how much his sons (well, at least the ones who actually cared) looked up to him, especially Horus. He probally figured they'd be able to do the "right" thing without having to prompt them.NecronLord wrote:Yes. The more that's revealed about the Emperor, the more disappointing he is.