Team HFS!(SSJ2 Vegitto, Thor, Superman) vs The Culture

[Robert Treder]

Yeah, pre-Crisis Superman could handle this on his own.

And Thor can already travel through space, I'm pretty sure.

[consequences]

Where the fuck do people keep getting this tearing apart galaxies bullshit for DBZ? If anything, we see less and less colaterral damage as the series goes on.
On the Picosecond garbage: If they can accelerate themselves to such a great extent, what need do they have for the room of Spirit and Time? Buu and Cell were killing people at a rate perceivable to human senses, otherwise they would have depopulated the planet within the first ten seconds. This gives subjective centuries to train in at the speeds that I keep hearing claimed.
Note: Unless you can post scans of the later manga, the anime is the only continuity you have to work with for the Cell games and on.

[Yogi]

Note: Unless you can post scans of the later manga, the anime is the only continuity you have to work with for the Cell games and on.

So, you're using Anime. Fine.
Movie 8.
Brolli.
Time to destroy galaxy: 5 seconds.
Thank you for playing.

[consequences]

Haven't a number of DBZers contested the movies as being part of the continuity?
Also, one big blast, fine, doable, by the ravings I've heard should have taken less than a millisecond, but okay.
Tracking down and absorbing/turning into candy and eating entire cities? Took a minimum of hours, more like days in some cases.
If we use five seconds per planet as the standard, and assume zero travel time or searching necessary to find targets, it would take decades to destroy every Major Culture presence, even if we assume that a Culture installation that could take a supernova to the face and yawn is only as tough as a planet.
I don't dispute the fact that they can kill planets, just the idiocy that every stray shot that leaves a ten foot crater was supposed to contain enough energy to obliterate the planet/solar system/galaxy/whatever.

[Seggybop]

The movies are part of the continuity as long as they don't conflict with the series. Same as like SW. Movies 1, 8, 9, and 13 I'm pretty sure are in.
So, the Culture has no defense for their entire galaxy suddenly and without warning exploding. zyahahahahahaa

[Yogi]

Haven't a number of DBZers contested the movies as being part of the continuity?

I'm one of them. However, I'm debating by your rules, not mine, and in the universe of Consequence, Anime is cannon.
Or would you like to retract your claim and claim that it is NOT cannon. If so, you better provide a good reason.

Tracking down and absorbing/turning into candy and eating entire cities? Took a minimum of hours, more like days in some cases.

I you will notice, Buu wasn't serious, he was having fun. Whe he was originally was going to kill Bee, he healed it so it would run away, and he refused to kill it because it refused to run away from him. When Buu becomes serious about extermination, he fires ONE shot.

If we use five seconds per planet as the standard, and assume zero travel time or searching necessary to find targets, it would take decades to destroy every Major Culture presence, even if we assume that a Culture installation that could take a supernova to the face and yawn is only as tough as a planet.

I said GALAXY, not planet.

I don't dispute the fact that they can kill planets, just the idiocy that every stray shot that leaves a ten foot crater was supposed to contain enough energy to obliterate the planet/solar system/galaxy/whatever.

Math > "doesn't look right"

[consequences]

Well, for Movie number 8 to have been canon, it would have had to take place in the one week period before the Cell games to fit in with the established continuity. Trunks is there, Goku's alive, Gohan can go Supersaiyajin, which really limits the available time that the movie could possibly take place in. This would also require them all to go gallivanting off to another planet (maybe galaxy, I don't quite remember), without the slightest worry that Cell might do something other than just sit and wait. Its barely conceivable, if completely out of character for this to happen. Also, most of the time in the bref period before the Cell Games is already accounted for in the episodes. And Movie 8 is one of those that is relatively easy to fit into the continuity(i.e. its not absolutely impossible like movie number 12)
Unfortunately, I'm not willing to wake up my housemates to retrieve my copies of the movie, so a reviewing of the galaxy destruction in five seconds is going to have to wait until at least tomorrow. It go against my memory of the movie, but what the hell, it was pretty fun. Nowhere near as good as either of the Cooler movies however.

[The Nomad]

And you think the Culture's ability to attack realspace targets from a different dimension is any less of a cop-out?

No. It's called standard ability. Like blowing up planets or stars.

About Time Travel : unfunctionnal cop out. If Supes needs to Time travel, then Culture's tech has effect on him, then he's dead. How can he time travel if he's dead ? That's why time travel cop outs are bullshit.

Superman can travel fast enough to phase through a different dimension, reach them in no time, then tear em ta shreds

Proof that he can reach Cultureverse Hyperspace.

Proof that those brainless characters can resist to effectors, which affect beings of God-like intelligence.
Proof that they can withstand to a black hole or CAM ammo appearing within their head through a Displacer wormhole.

[Ghost Rider]

He punches holes in time...he literally was admitted by Curt Swan(may he rest in peace) and Julius Schwartz as THE DC Deus Ex Machina.

For the other...they have quantifiable explainations...Superman doesn't, thus pointless to ever put him in any debate because he can have any ability he wants because the writers have done that sort of extrapolation to infinity.

You might as well have renamed him God...except you have proof of the Big Boy Scout's existence.

[The Nomad]

You wanna play this ?

Fine.

Culture cop-out : Sublime, and reach omnipotence. Unless you can provide proof that anyone in the Team HFS can be faster than a Mind and prevent It from Subliming, It erases them from existence before they had a chance to time travel.
That or a random pre-existing Sublimed destroys the Team HFS

Brolli.
Time to destroy galaxy: 5 seconds.

I remember that scene.
Obviously in the DBZverse, light is faster than light . What's the policy concerning tech vs magic here ?

[Ghost Rider]

sigh...you do understand when writers call him their version of a Deus ex machnica...there's nothing to quantify, right?

You're basically asking anyone to rate the all powerful and going what would he do against the Culture...when it's impossible to say given his powers raise and loer in accordance to what he wants...at his height he re-altered time, punched holes to go to other places to defeat the Time Trapper and restore the multiversal balance.

He has complete immunity to anything that will make him lose(if he needs some new power...it comes about)

I may as well argue...what would happen if we set Jack Kirby vs Dr. Doom...Jack Kirby uses his eraser.

[Yogi]

What Pre-crisis Superman has been able to resist shall be listed below.

1) Not Darkseid
2) Not God
3) Not the Specter (at least I don't think so)
4) But pretty much everything else

He's fast enough to travel back to time, so he can grab the Sword of Superman. When he does that the list is changed to

1) Not God
2) But pretty much everything else

About Insert any other ability here : unfunctionnal cop out. If insert any other person here needs to insert ability, then insert second person tech has effect on him, then he's dead. How can he insert ability if he's dead ? That's why insert ability cop outs are bullshit.

It would be silly of me to say that Darth Vader force choking the Punisher is a cop-out, since that obvoiusly means the Punisher can affect Darth Vader, so how can Vader choke if he's dead?

You have yet to prove why TIME TRAVEL deserves special status as a "cop out ability". Your argument could have been for ANY ability, is someone has to use it, he better so do before the opponent kills him. NO FUCKING SHIT, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. Problem is you have yet to prove that the Culture can kill SuperSkipAroundTheUniverseLikeItsNothingMan before he travels through time.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually he did beat Darkseid...as well as Spectre

God/the Presense has always remained a slight edge above him.

Grabbing his sword turns him from godlike to God...

That and seriously saying Time-Travel is a cop out...fine...but he exerts enough physical force to enter other dimension(he did it with Mxy). He has also shown that he can just gain abilities(mind being taken over...his Super-Brain will just come up with Super Mind defense)

Literally as I said there isn't anything to quantify with Silver Age Supes.

[The Nomad]

Ok. Then the following may happen :

*A hotheaded member of the Team HFS ( say Vegitto ) blows up the Galaxy.
Thus, he blows up the Dead Worlds and the Aerospheres and whatever similar artifact there is in the Culture Galaxy.
Therefore, the Team HFS has to fight hords of angry Sublimed. In short terms : God-like entities. Or God, as Dorolow would say. Team HFS looses.
If the Sublimed do not rebuild the Galaxy when rebuilding their toys, then the surviving GSVs and Orbitals sheltered in Hyperspace flee to another Galaxy and rebuild their civilisation.

Culture wins.

*Supes tries to time travel and destroy the Culture in the past. Concession : the material Culture can't do much things about it. But therefore he endangers the Sublimed part of the Culture, which destroys/erases/bans him before he can time-travel.
Or if the Sublimed Culture has transcended from causality and doesn't show interest in its material part, even then ultimately the Culture survives as a God-like entity.

Culture wins.

*anyhow, the Culture Minds might be intelligent enough to make one of the uberbeings destroy or damage one of the Sublimed Artifacts.

Culture wins.

You know, Cultureverse has its version of Deus Ex Machina too...

[Ghost Rider]

Supes is a deus ex machnia.

Literally in trying to kill him you are basically trying to destroy something which his Super-brain will automatically just go "Gotta get a new power"

Overall the pointlessness of the debate to which you are actually trying to quantify. Silver Age Superman. He really isn't...he does the Impossible...he defied everything physics and the real world threw at him and essentially is saying let put two very poewrful beings and God against the Culture.

And unless the Culture can stop a being who PUNCHES(do you even realize how utterly unfeasible and asinine this is...yet it's there in Superman) holes in dimensions and time, and can do pretty much whatever he wants, you're not going to make much sense.

[Yogi]

I just remembered. He can "vibrate" from one dimension to another. To be specific, a scientist was trying to escape from him using a machine that could travel between dimensions, and Superman was following him just fine.

How the heck does he VIBRATE between dimensions?

I know know this because there was a LONG thread on a MB I visit about Pre-Crisis Superman vs. SSJ4 Goku.

[Ghost Rider]

Same way Barry Allen does...it's never explained just simply done so that the poor reader doesn't think Pre-Crisis is able to teleport.

[Darth_Shinji]

Ok. Then the following may happen :

*A hotheaded member of the Team HFS ( say Vegitto ) blows up the Galaxy.
Thus, he blows up the Dead Worlds and the Aerospheres and whatever similar artifact there is in the Culture Galaxy.
Therefore, the Team HFS has to fight hords of angry Sublimed. In short terms : God-like entities. Or God, as Dorolow would say. Team HFS looses.
If the Sublimed do not rebuild the Galaxy when rebuilding their toys, then the surviving GSVs and Orbitals sheltered in Hyperspace flee to another Galaxy and rebuild their civilisation.

Culture wins.

*Supes tries to time travel and destroy the Culture in the past. Concession : the material Culture can't do much things about it. But therefore he endangers the Sublimed part of the Culture, which destroys/erases/bans him before he can time-travel.
Or if the Sublimed Culture has transcended from causality and doesn't show interest in its material part, even then ultimately the Culture survives as a God-like entity.

Culture wins.

*anyhow, the Culture Minds might be intelligent enough to make one of the uberbeings destroy or damage one of the Sublimed Artifacts.

Culture wins.

You know, Cultureverse has its version of Deus Ex Machina too...

NO by your logic the culture verse wins. Not the Culture. From what I've heard the Sublimed are not apart of the Culture so the Culture doesn't win. It mearly survives when other beings of the Cultureverse come in and curb stomp the guys. And the DBZ guys wouldn't have to blow up a galaxy. If they could do that to a galaxy in 5 secs. Imgaine what they could do to all of the cultures occuiped space in less time than the Culture could react.


And to this whole hyperspace ability not being a copout is posterious. A copout is a ability that renders one side a compleate victory no matter what.

[Admiral Valdemar]

From what I have seen I will only post this much; the wanking over the insane powers that "Pre-crisi Supes" and SSJ Goku and other DBZ characters have makes battles hard to quantify. How do you debate someone who can ignore the most basic premise of physics (no time-travel) or "punch" through universe? In reality non of this could be done, same with Trek and their ability to have Voyager survive a black hole. NOTHING can do that no matter how powerful.

The DBZ stuff is funny too, they go on about blasting galaxies yet most all their battles have punch fights that barely register no matter which medium they are in.

It's quite simple. If that "team" went into the Cultureverse and pissed about like that, the beings higher up on the pecking order will get a bit pissed. The more powerful (yes, there are more powerful races in the Cultureverse) will take notice. Then there are the sublimed who can just blink you out of existence.

I trust I have made my point clear that such a debate falls back on either time-travel or god wankfests, in which case it cannot be done for the same reason a Daleks Vs. Timelords debate cannot. It's impossible.

Thankyoucomeagain!

[Ghost Rider]

From what I have seen I will only post this much; the wanking over the insane powers that "Pre-crisi Supes" and SSJ Goku and other DBZ characters have makes battles hard to quantify. How do you debate someone who can ignore the most basic premise of physics (no time-travel) or "punch" through universe? In reality non of this could be done, same with Trek and their ability to have Voyager survive a black hole. NOTHING can do that no matter how powerful.

The DBZ stuff is funny too, they go on about blasting galaxies yet most all their battles have punch fights that barely register no matter which medium they are in.

It's quite simple. If that "team" went into the Cultureverse and pissed about like that, the beings higher up on the pecking order will get a bit pissed. The more powerful (yes, there are more powerful races in the Cultureverse) will take notice. Then there are the sublimed who can just blink you out of existence.

I trust I have made my point clear that such a debate falls back on either time-travel or god wankfests, in which case it cannot be done for the same reason a Daleks Vs. Timelords debate cannot. It's impossible.

Thankyoucomeagain!

THANK YOU

[FBHthelizardmage]

I am very tempted to quote the matrix here.
"whats the good of being Deus ex machnica, if your dead?"

the reaction time diffrence means that by the time that PC superman can manifest any of his wank fantasy powers he will be dead or if that isn't possible then the culture will sublimb. they will them be as powerful as he is. And far far more numerous.

the rest of the team are quite frankly chaff.

[Ghost Rider]

Read the Valdemar post...he puts it succiently why this is pointless.

And once again saying reaction time is pointless...we don't know the said reaction time of Silver Age supes...thus can't make a comparison.

[The Nomad]

NO by your logic the culture verse wins. Not the Culture. From what I've heard the Sublimed are not apart of the Culture so the Culture doesn't win. It mearly survives when other beings of the Cultureverse come in and curb stomp the guys. And the DBZ guys wouldn't have to blow up a galaxy. If they could do that to a galaxy in 5 secs. Imgaine what they could do to all of the cultures occuiped space in less time than the Culture could react.

Lol but part of the Culture are Sublimed. Therefore if Sublimed Culture wipes out Supes, the Culture wins. Same applies to the "destroy Artifacts" thing : the Culture survives, therefore it wins. Just because the E-E didn't destroy the two Son'a cruisers with its own weapons in INS doesn't mean it didn't win ( not a good example, agreed ).

[The Nomad]

And I forgot : the Culture can Sublime whenever they want. But unless the Team tries to mess up with them in that new state, it will be zero-to-zero : the Culture will then ignore them as the ants they will be. Unless they choose to blow up any souvenir of its mortal existence the Culture may elect. NOOOT good.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Assume Supes is pre-crises

Culture looses.

Badly.

No contest.

This is the person who could do pretty much anything.

I was thinking the same thing, Pre Crisis Silver Age Superman could move at almost limitless speed and could clap and extinguish a star.