Rant: Dune 7&8... it burns. (Spoilers)

[aerius]

I read Dick Marcinko and John Ringo books so I can't exactly say I have good taste nor high standards. With that said, I still can't believe how much Dune 7 & 8 sucked, it's even more unrealistic and contrived than Ringo's Kildar series and that says something.

[Stark]

This is really one for the books - people ranting about how much something sucks, and I'm not involved! Clearly I'm too smart to read Dune spinoffs?

As a KJA-Dune virgin, how much of the spectacular failure in these books was foreshadowed in the Butlerian Jihad books? I don't mean dramatically... you mention that 7&8 are much worse than the Butlerian books, but the recycle characters and you mention they are sort-of sequels.

[Imperial Overlord]

As a KJA-Dune virgin, how much of the spectacular failure in these books was foreshadowed in the Butlerian Jihad books? I don't mean dramatically... you mention that 7&8 are much worse than the Butlerian books, but the recycle characters and you mention they are sort-of sequels.

Not having read any KJA-Dune, but having heard from those who have on multiple occasions, that it was going to suck donkey balls was a given but that they would suck this badly was a surprise.

[Frank Hipper]

This is really one for the books - people ranting about how much something sucks, and I'm not involved! Clearly I'm too smart to read Dune spinoffs?

I am too, to an extent; I read the House prequels with increasing horror, and ended up literally tossing the first Butlerian Jihad book away from me at page 68.

As a KJA-Dune virgin, how much of the spectacular failure in these books was foreshadowed in the Butlerian Jihad books?

AFAIC, all of it.
What could be a more gross distortion of the few hints Frank Herbert gave about the Jihad?

It was a literal religious crusade against artificial intelligence, not a revolution against cruel machine masters.

Of course they were going spawn something that makes chugging a quart of hot chunky vomit seasoned with pubic hair seem preferable to reading their books.

[Nephtys]

Honestly, the House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino books weren't that bad. They seemed interesting to me since they detailed the era around the original Dune, with intrigues between nobles or some crap like that. Sure, a lot of their ideas were pretty lame, but they at least tried to be good fanfiction. I'll give them that. They were more enjoyable than a boring yarn like 'God Emperor of Dune', a 800 page epic about senility.

But oh wow. The Butlerian Jihad books were way off. I guess without a foundation written by someone who had sense, they made up all kinds of shit. Hello? An evil machine doctor that dissects babies for fun? The machines becoming evil because of a dissatisfied group of INTERNET WARGAMERS hacked them? That's like Shep causing doomsday because his Commadore 64 accessed WHOPR. Pretty much, the entire Butlerian Jihad was awful tripe. When I finished listening to them, I was just thinking.. ugh. What a trainwreck. I think I skipped ahead a few dozen chapters to cut down on the pain. Additionally, I think the machines here were inspired by the GENIUS Machines of 'The Matrix', as they acted pretty much in the same idiotic 'evil for evil's sake' manner.

No hint at all that they'd be pretty much transported into the 7/8 sequels.

[Dalton]

Man, and I thought Chapterhouse Dune was mind-numbingly boring and pretentious. I never knew the Dune universe became a parody of itself.

hee hee hee

[Frank Hipper]

Man, and I thought Chapterhouse Dune was mind-numbingly boring and pretentious. I never knew the Dune universe became a parody of itself.

hee hee hee

Pretentious I get, it's Frank Herbert, but boring?

You at least get a brief space battle, some ground action, and I thought the bit where the Bene Gesserit delegation goes to meet the Honored Matres on Junction was great...partly because of the none-to-subtle jab at Lucas in it.

[Balrog]

Jesus F. Christ.

If I ever write a series of good books, I'm making sure to put in my will that no one will ever touch them or make new material from them. You can't even trust your own children to not rape your work horribly.

[Dalton]

Pretentious I get, it's Frank Herbert, but boring?

You at least get a brief space battle, some ground action, and I thought the bit where the Bene Gesserit delegation goes to meet the Honored Matres on Junction was great...partly because of the none-to-subtle jab at Lucas in it.

Frank, I'm sorry, but reading Chapterhouse: Dune was only slightly less mind-numbingly boring than Christopher Tolkien's books on LOTR.

[Uraniun235]

Jesus christ.

The worst part is that one of my friends swears the prequel books are awesome and I have the horrifying thought that he will probably also find these 'sequels' to be awesome.

If I ever write a series of good books, I'm making sure to put in my will that no one will ever touch them or make new material from them. You can't even trust your own children to not rape your work horribly.

Balrog, let's be fair; there are authors who themselves could not be trusted with their own works. (See: Gene Roddenberry, J. Michael Straczyncski...)

Man, and I thought Chapterhouse Dune was mind-numbingly boring and pretentious. I never knew the Dune universe became a parody of itself.

hee hee hee

Pretentious I get, it's Frank Herbert, but boring?

You at least get a brief space battle, some ground action, and I thought the bit where the Bene Gesserit delegation goes to meet the Honored Matres on Junction was great...partly because of the none-to-subtle jab at Lucas in it.

It's been several years since I read Chapterhouse; what was the jab?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, in ChapterHouse Dune, Darwi Ordrade willingly comes before the Grand Honored Matre while the Bene Gesserit Forces under Miles Teg stages a massive assault on Giedi Prime (forgot the new name) and finally Junction itself.

Ordrade dies... naturally.

[Frank Hipper]

It's been several years since I read Chapterhouse; what was the jab?

In the lobby of the hotel on Junction, discussing droid servants, Odrade and Tamalane make remarks to each other to the extent of (it's been a while since I read it, too):
"Why do they make these things to sound like friendly humans?"

"I know, it obscene."

In Heretics of Dune, Herbert also goes to some length to get the point in that anyone who's a 3-P-O is a person who enjoys cheap substitutions.

[Manus Celer Dei]

I suspected the prequel crap would tie back into the sequels with those probe thingys Omnius sent out and when the navigator in House Corrino went crazy and sensed something. But seriously:

A bunch of nothing happens, before it's revealed that those two are really Omnius (AKA, Skynet) and Erasmus (AKA, Robo-Snydley Whiplash), the machine overlords from the butlerian Jihad prequels.

What the fuck. Hell, didn't the epilogue of Chapterhouse explicitly state they were creations of the Tleilaxu that gained independance?

[Frank Hipper]

I suspected the prequel crap would tie back into the sequels with those probe thingys Omnius sent out and when the navigator in House Corrino went crazy and sensed something. But seriously:

A bunch of nothing happens, before it's revealed that those two are really Omnius (AKA, Skynet) and Erasmus (AKA, Robo-Snydley Whiplash), the machine overlords from the butlerian Jihad prequels.

What the fuck. Hell, didn't the epilogue of Chapterhouse explicitly state they were creations of the Tleilaxu that gained independance?

Explicitly, not really.
Implicitly, you betcha.

We know the Honored Matres were running from "those of many faces".

We know that Duncan kept thinking of Face Dancers every time he saw them.

We know that the new Face Dancers (how "new" they really are, and if they originated from the Scattering isn't clear), posess the ability to absorb the memories of of vast numbers of people.

That's more than enough for most people to conclude that the pair Duncan kept seeing were Face Dancer originated, but not Pinky and the Brian.
Apparently the glowing green net that Duncan observed them behind was Skynet.

[Mayabird]

Guess who has the book. Time for some quoting fun.

"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

"Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down."

...[a few lines of sarcastic comments about what they'd say to a Master]...

Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and..."

"It's personas we take, Marty."

"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

That looks pretty explicit to me. These are Super Face Dancers, changed just like the Bene Gesserit and the Fish Speakers had when they became the Honored Matres. How you could read that and get ancient computers of evil I don't know.

[Nephtys]

They made another tie in. The 'super face dancers' were face dancers made by the Tleilaxu Master Researcher who was making synthetic spice in the 'House Corrino' prequels, who the machines subverted out in the here-be-dragons land.

[Mayabird]

Wait, you mean that silly Tleilaxu synthetic spice that was being produced some three thousand years too early, back in the days of Leto I, according to those crappy House prequels? (Yes, I was dumb enough to read the first two - fortunately I didn't go further). And then they were Face Dancers, except they're also evil computers of doom?

I'm almost wondering why I bother asking. The stupid already burns and I know it'll only get worse from here.

[Frank Hipper]

Guess who has the book. Time for some quoting fun.

"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

"Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down."

...[a few lines of sarcastic comments about what they'd say to a Master]...

Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and..."

"It's personas we take, Marty."

"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

That looks pretty explicit to me. These are Super Face Dancers, changed just like the Bene Gesserit and the Fish Speakers had when they became the Honored Matres. How you could read that and get ancient computers of evil I don't know.

Thank you, I haven't replaced all my books yet and was going by memory.

[Jadeite]

Wait, you mean that silly Tleilaxu synthetic spice that was being produced some three thousand years too early, back in the days of Leto I, according to those crappy House prequels?

Yes, but the research project failed, and was then destroyed in the Atreides liberation of Ix.

[Guardsman Bass]

That's pretty bad even for KJA, at least in comparison to what I've read of the prequels and the Butlerian Jihad. And how the hell did they get away with the water-resistant worms? Wasn't it intrinsically part of the sandworms' biology that they couldn't stand water (which was why before they start developing in worms, the sand jellyfish or whatever they are called had to lock up all the surface water)?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

the sand jellyfish or whatever they are called

Sandtrout.

[Dahak]

Well, it would be really interesting to see/read the documents left behind by Herbert himself to see what he really intended.
But I think it won't happen....

[DogsOfWar]

Before now, I didn't even know Dune had sequels. Thank you Nephtys for making sure I never read them, thus allowing me to hold on to the illusion that they really don't exist.

I've seen stuff made by ST fanboys that was better than that

[General Soontir Fel]

I've finished it yesterday. The big "peace, love and understanding" at the end just doesn't fit into the Dune-verse. At all.

IMHO, there's only one real Dune novel. Everything else is good to run-of-the-mill fanfiction, but just that.

Oh, and if anyone thinks this is the end... think again. Inside the Sandworms of Dune front cover, which lists all the Dune works (Herbert's and KJA's), it says that there's an upcoming novel, Paul of Dune.

I do have to wonder what it'll be about, considering that pretty much the whole history of the Dune-verse has been covered...

[Ryan Thunder]

Dear Vaul... That's just pathetic.

You know you're a bad writer when a dying, senile man can write a story that trails off, unfinished at his death, and still do a better job than you.