Ghost int he Shell Vs... Halo

[Vendetta]

Cyborgs are easily mass produced. Military grade cyberbodies are not.

Even then, Section 9 aren't a battlefield unit, they have minimal small arms protection and not a lot of firepower, (this was even pointed out in SAC: 2nd Gig).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Cyborgs are easily mass produced. Military grade cyberbodies are not.

Even then, Section 9 aren't a battlefield unit, they have minimal small arms protection and not a lot of firepower, (this was even pointed out in SAC: 2nd Gig).

I would like to point out that Bartok happens to be a cyborg who once served in the military. So did the Major if I am not wrong.

[Darth Yoshi]

They had to deal with the Laughing Man who was a genius of a hacker.

The Laughing Man wasn't an AI, either. My point is that the Puppet Master can't be used to say that Section 9 has experience with super-AIs because we're dealing with SAC Section 9, not movie/manga Section 9.

[Ryan Thunder]

They had to deal with the Laughing Man who was a genius of a hacker.

The Laughing Man wasn't an AI, either. My point is that the Puppet Master can't be used to say that Section 9 has experience with super-AIs because we're dealing with SAC Section 9, not movie/manga Section 9.

Super-AI? She hacked a Covenant starship. Wow. That's impressive.

These are the guys that believe a Halo is a "sacred ring."

They're no more intelligent than a human being, as impressive as that is by our standards. They're "patterned" after one, in fact. On the sci-fi scale, that's hardly jaw-dropping, or even worthy of being called 'super'.

[Commander 598]

Most of the "hacking people" that I remember involved hacking said people's cyberbrains and granted I don't know the specifics on those, I DO know that basic UNSC implants are nowhere near as extensive. Claiming that Section 9 can take control of UNSC personnel due to the what, if memory serves correct, is nothing more than an electronic dog tag in their head is kind of stretching it don't you think?

While I think SPARTAN implants are a bit different than standard, they aren't much better. (I think their implants may relate directly to controlling their MJOLNIR armor. I don't remember though...)

[Nephtys]

Most of the "hacking people" that I remember involved hacking said people's cyberbrains and granted I don't know the specifics on those, I DO know that basic UNSC implants are nowhere near as extensive. Claiming that Section 9 can take control of UNSC personnel due to the what, if memory serves correct, is nothing more than an electronic dog tag in their head is kind of stretching it don't you think?

While I think SPARTAN implants are a bit different than standard, they aren't much better. (I think their implants may relate directly to controlling their MJOLNIR armor. I don't remember though...)

Cyberbrains are pretty extensive. But you should also take note that all of the hacking cases in the GITS shows and movies pretty much represents nearly all the cases of such crimes in the country. It's rare. Only the Major has ever demonstrated the ability to hijack a person, and that's always some poor chump with probably no real experience in doing anything but leaving their commercial firewall on.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Most of the "hacking people" that I remember involved hacking said people's cyberbrains and granted I don't know the specifics on those, I DO know that basic UNSC implants are nowhere near as extensive. Claiming that Section 9 can take control of UNSC personnel due to the what, if memory serves correct, is nothing more than an electronic dog tag in their head is kind of stretching it don't you think?

While I think SPARTAN implants are a bit different than standard, they aren't much better. (I think their implants may relate directly to controlling their MJOLNIR armor. I don't remember though...)

but hacking the Mjolnir armor instead of whatever implants the person wearing have is probably going to be a lot more effective.

[Commander 598]

And do what exactly? It's not like it can be remotely operated.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Most of the "hacking people" that I remember involved hacking said people's cyberbrains and granted I don't know the specifics on those, I DO know that basic UNSC implants are nowhere near as extensive. Claiming that Section 9 can take control of UNSC personnel due to the what, if memory serves correct, is nothing more than an electronic dog tag in their head is kind of stretching it don't you think?

While I think SPARTAN implants are a bit different than standard, they aren't much better. (I think their implants may relate directly to controlling their MJOLNIR armor. I don't remember though...)

but hacking the Mjolnir armor instead of whatever implants the person wearing have is probably going to be a lot more effective.

The Mjolnir armour has a wireless connection? .
It has a storage system for Cortana/other data and some sphisticated tech, but nothing like it's own AI or much anything that's been shown to be applicably "hackable" (Unlike cyborg brains with an open Wi-fi connection).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Mjolnir armour has a wireless connection? .
It has a storage system for Cortana/other data and some sphisticated tech, but nothing like it's own AI or much anything that's been shown to be applicably "hackable" (Unlike cyborg brains with an open Wi-fi connection).

If I recall correctly, the combat suit does have a communications module. Otherwise, how does the wearer communicate with anyone?

[MJ12 Commando]

And do what exactly? It's not like it can be remotely operated.

Who needs to? Just scram that fusion reactor that powers it, and the Spartan will be wearing five hundred pounds of dead weight.

A military cyborg has better aim and heavier firepower than the Chief, as well as a stealth advantage. FYI, in any situation where long-range weaponry may be employed, this is an extreme disadvantage for the guy who has merely human aim instead of a targeting program implanted directly into his brain.

[Ford Prefect]

I would like to point out that Bartok happens to be a cyborg who once served in the military. So did the Major if I am not wrong.

Both Batou and Kusanagi have served in the military, as has Ishikawa - all in the same unit during a UN peacekeeping mission. Conversely, Saitou was a mercenary in the same conflict.

Cyborgs are easily mass produced. Military grade cyberbodies are not.

Given that military grade cyberbodies are deployed by the dozens - the Section 4 Rangers have them, and it is likely the Umibozu are all full-body replacements given their legendary reputation - they're certainly mass produceable. They're just too expensive for most civillians to afford.

Even then, Section 9 aren't a battlefield unit, they have minimal small arms protection and not a lot of firepower, (this was even pointed out in SAC: 2nd Gig).

Of course, this is clearly bullshit - when they were assaulted by the Umibozu at the end of 1st Gig, they brought out all manner of big guns, like Batou's chaingun and Borma's missile launcher. They also have Saitou's large calibre rifles, specifically the 20mm monster which blows tunnels through solid tank armour, as seen when the HAW 206 dodges his shot.

And they always have a cadre of think-tanks, be they Tachikomas or Uchikomas. While not exactly heavy duty compared to an MSDF Type 303 or a full-sized tank, they're not to be sneezed at.

[Plekhanov]

And they always have a cadre of think-tanks, be they Tachikomas or Uchikomas. While not exactly heavy duty compared to an MSDF Type 303 or a full-sized tank, they're not to be sneezed at.

Not least because of their insane manoeuvrability, those things leap about like spiderman and are well armed. In fight in an urban environment the ability of the tachikomas to take position essentially where ever they feel like would pose a threat the spartans are unlikely to be prepared for.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And they always have a cadre of think-tanks, be they Tachikomas or Uchikomas. While not exactly heavy duty compared to an MSDF Type 303 or a full-sized tank, they're not to be sneezed at.

Not least because of their insane manoeuvrability, those things leap about like spiderman and are well armed. In fight in an urban environment the ability of the tachikomas to take position essentially where ever they feel like would pose a threat the spartans are unlikely to be prepared for.

Not least Section 9 is known to occasionally use camouflage suits. Armed reconnaissance is part of their plethora of skills.

[Ford Prefect]

Not least because of their insane manoeuvrability, those things leap about like spiderman and are well armed. In fight in an urban environment the ability of the tachikomas to take position essentially where ever they feel like would pose a threat the spartans are unlikely to be prepared for.

I'm reminded of the the battle against the Jigabachi ('Digger Wasp' wasn't it?) attack helicopters. Though completely outmatched in terms of armament and armour, the Tachikoma units were capable of fighting against them through a clever use of terrain, thermoptic camo and extreme agility. The only attack unit with even comprable manoeuvrability are the MSDF Type 303s, as seen when one was duking it out with the three Tachikomas for Batou's life at the end of the first series.

[Ford Prefect]

Not least Section 9 is known to occasionally use camouflage suits. Armed reconnaissance is part of their plethora of skills.

Apologies for the double post, and the nitpick, but it should be noted that several members of Section 9 have their thermoptic camo built in - most notably the Major, but Paz and Batou have done it in plain clothes as well. In fact, Togusa should be able to as well, given his head can do it.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Togusa only has a cyber brain though, he doesn't have any prosthetics to speak of. So he probably needs to carry the gear on his person.

The Major, Paz and Batou are all full-body cyborgs.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Only the Major has ever demonstrated the ability to hijack a person, and that's always some poor chump with probably no real experience in doing anything but leaving their commercial firewall on.

She did hack Batou into punching himself in the face in one episode.

[Ford Prefect]

Togusa only has a cyber brain though, he doesn't have any prosthetics to speak of. So he probably needs to carry the gear on his person.

The Major, Paz and Batou are all full-body cyborgs.

Yeah, I know. But look at when he turns invisible in the first episode - while he is wearing a combat suit, he's not wearing anything over his head, such as the thermoptic veils used by the Major in the movie.

She did hack Batou into punching himself in the face in one episode.

To be honest, I don't think that's a particularly good example. The Section 9 members seem to be on a kind of personal network, given that they were supposed to be able to get into Aramaki's head when he went missing, but couldn't because he was in autistic mode. The fact that there was no backlash from Batou's inevitable attack barriers (which Togusa has) and the fact she did it wirelessly seems to suggest this.

[Beowulf]

Military grade cyber bodies can't be impossibly expensive for a private citizen to own. Major Kusanagi had at least one spare.

They can also be impossibly accurate. As in, shoot down a bullet with a bullet accurate.

Cortana hacking anything won't be much of a problem. Thing is, you generally need to have some clue of how it all works to be able to hack it. Even disregarding that, she's limited to the processing power of MC's suit. Section 9 has that of all the Tachikomas. Each of them is a decently capable hacker in their own right. Anyway, I seem to recall that the Covenant AI Cortana hacked was really a much degraded copy of herself.

[Darth Yoshi]

Super-AI? She hacked a Covenant starship. Wow. That's impressive.

These are the guys that believe a Halo is a "sacred ring."

They're no more intelligent than a human being, as impressive as that is by our standards. They're "patterned" after one, in fact. On the sci-fi scale, that's hardly jaw-dropping, or even worthy of being called 'super'.

When did I mention Cortana? Both of my posts restricted themselves to the Puppet Master, which is a GitS super-AI.

As for Batou punching himself, IIRC the Major has all the ghost keys for everyone in the unit.

[[R_H]]

Here are some quotes from First Strike that describe what Cortana is capable of (I've only read through up to page 250 though, so I'll write another post when I'm finished).

pg.53
" With all due respect to Miss Polaski's skill, Cortana said, allow me to point out that I process information a million times faster and - " (interrupted by Master Chief)

" I need you to link with the flagship's intraship battlenet, the Chief cut in, when we're close you'll need to shut down its weapons. Jam its communications."

" Connecting to the Covenant battlenet, Cortana announced over the ship COM. Accessing their weapons systems. Stand by."

pg.54
" Forward weapons systems and shields are disabled, Cortana said."

pg63
While moving through a service corridor
" Stop here, Cortana said...A lucky break, look to your left and down 20 cm...That's a data port, or what passes for one with Covenant Engineers. I'm picking up handshake signals in shortwave and infrared."

" Once I'm directly in contact with the ship's battlenet, I can infiltrate and take over their systems. You'll still need to get to the bridge and manually give me access to their engineering systems. In the meantime, I may be able to control secondary systems and buy you some time."

" If you're sure (said the Chief). When have I not been sure she snapped. The Chief could sense her impatience through the neural interface."

" Cortana was built for software intrusion. She had been programmed with every dirty trick and code-breaking algorithm that the Office of Naval Intelligence, Section Three had ever created, and a few more tricks she'd developed on her own. She was the ultimate thief and electronic spy. She slipped into the Covenant system."

" It was easy the first time she had entered their netwok as the Longsword (interceptor/gunboat they boarded the Covenant ship with) had approached the flagship. She had set their weapons systems into a diagnostic mode. The Covenant had determined the problem and quickly reset the system, but it had gained Polaski the precious seconds need to get inside the launch bay. ... Now the element of surprise was gon and the system's counterintrusion programs were running on high alert. Something else prowled the systems now. Delicate pings bounced off the edges of Cortana's presence; they probed and withdrew. It felt as if there were someone else running through their systems. A Covenant AI? There had never been any reports of alien AIs. ... She scanned the ship's schematics, deck by deck, then flashed through the vessel's surveillance systems. She picked out the quickest route to the bridge from their current position and stored it in a stolen tertiary system buffer. She multitasked a portion of herself and continued to analyze the ship's structure and subsystems."

pg.65
" Within the flagship she spotted a dozen hunt and kill Elite teams sweeping the corridors. She scrambled the ship's tracking systems, generate electronic ghosts of the Chief and his team along a path to the nose of the ship, where UNSC command and control centers were typically located. Maybe she could fool the Elites into a wild goose chase. She uploaded the coordinates of those enemies into the Chief's HUD."

" A ticle of feedback teased through the data stream. Cortana locked onto the source of that feedback, listened, discerned a nonrandom pattern to the signal and then cut off contact. She had no time to play hide and seek with whatever else was in this system."

"Cortana had to finally admit to herself that she didn't have the power to contend with a possible enemy artificial construct. She had absorbed a tremendous volume of data from Halo's systems: eons' worth of records on Halo's engineering and maintenance, the xenobiology of the Flood, and every scrap of information on the mysterious Forerunners. The information would take her a week of nonstop processing to examine, collate, codify...let alon understand. Even compressed, all the data filled her and cut into optical subsystems that she usually reserved for her processing. She had a naggin suspicion that the file compression had been too hasty - and that the Halo data might be corrupted. In effect, the vast amount of information she had copied bloated her, made her slower and less effective."

pg.66

" She sent a blocking countersignal along the connection where this other was trying to contact her. The portion of her consciousness examining the ship's structure discovered that the bridge had another access point. She should have seen that immediately, but this other entrance had been filed under the schematics as an emergency system. It was a tiny corridor that connected to a set of escape pods. That route shared a vent with an engineering passage."

" She continued to track both teams (Chief couldn't fit through the above mentionned corridor) and the relative positions of the Covenant parties. She replicated additional ghost signals to confuse the enemy."

" She detected an energy spike on the flagship's lateral sensors. One cruiser off to starboard moved farther away; it turned, its engines glowed, the black around rippled electric blue. The Covenant ship sped forward, tore the night and vanished into Slipspace. Cortana noted their departure vector for future reference...a possible clue at the location of their homeworld."

pg.67
" As Cortana pondered this (why that cruiser suddenly left), she continued to generate a countersignal to math to the probe sent by the other presence in the system. She hoped to cloak her activity as long as possible. The other's signal morphed into a series of Bessel functions and she compensated to match" (Doesn't really say anything to me, especially the part with the Bessel functions)

"She automated this process (referring to above), commandeering a portion of the Covenant's own NAV computer to do so, and then she herded the electronic ghosts of the Chief and the others to confuse the pursuing Elites. At the same time, she continued her study of the Covenant ship and its systems - it was a unique opportunity. The information on their advanced Slipspace drive, their weapons - it could leapfrog human technology decades forward."

" Cortana had to focus on protecting the Chief. She halted her other searches and scrutinized the ship's schematics. There had to be something she could use. A weapon. A way to stop their enemies - there: the backup terminus for their atmospheric preprocessors. Unlike the other systems, this one was classified as low priority and had minimal security layers. She generated several hundred thousand Covenant codes in a microsecond and cracked the system. She diverted the air vents along the corridors the Chief and his team occupied to the primary systems. She then tasked the processor pumps to service the rest of the ship and activated them - in reverse. ... The other presence in the system tried to shut the pumps off. She blocked that signal and assigned a new code to the security systems 'WE REGRET TO INFORM YOU' (no clue what this means)."

[Commander 598]

And do what exactly? It's not like it can be remotely operated.

Who needs to? Just scram that fusion reactor that powers it, and the Spartan will be wearing five hundred pounds of dead weight.

I don't think it quite works like that... If I remember correctly they had to manually (With their hands) set one to "go off" in First Strike.

[[R_H]]

And do what exactly? It's not like it can be remotely operated.

Who needs to? Just scram that fusion reactor that powers it, and the Spartan will be wearing five hundred pounds of dead weight.

I don't think it quite works like that... If I remember correctly they had to manually (With their hands) set one to "go off" in First Strike.

Not to mention that it explodes rather violently too...The wearer wouldn't be wearing 500 pounds of dead weight, they'd be dead.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

hasn't Cortana shown an ability to basically hijack the Master Chief's reflexes in the books?
Either way, I'd be surprised if the suit's reactor doesn't have software safeties as well as the manual ones. They had to manually set the power-pack to detonate, but I imagine the Spartans (and the government that paid for them) would rather a chance needler round didn't cause the suit to explode. There should be plenty of safeties and triggering any one of them makes the suit a serious hindrance.