SG: Atlantis Season Premiere

[LadyTevar]

They don't really need to. The Asurans have all the knowledge of the Ancients, which at least in bredth if not depth in all areas, is at least the equal of that of the Asgard. What's more, they've the logistics to work with it, an educated population who can contribute to the generation of new ideas... you get the picture. Even with the knowledge of the Asgard, it's still quite easy to make Earth out to be the underdogs. That's not even counting that the Asurans don't die and are immensely superior to humans one-on-one too.

Have they come up with something new? Or are they simply improving on the old? I don't recall seeing anything the Asurans have that hasn't been the Ancient's tech writ large or expanded to a logical conclusion. They still have the same body-types as when they were created (as seen in Flashbacks); wouldn't part of New Ideas mean New Looks?

Personally, I have to wonder if the Asurans aren't like the fabled Faerie Lords: Able to mimic and improve, but never create.

[CaptJodan]

They really don't need to. It's not as if we can somehow magically reverse engineer every piece of Asgard tech in anything remotely resembling a short time-frame, if at all. Even Carter said in "Unending" that it would take years (and in fact it did take decades) to just look through the data, never mind actually use and implement any of it.

I was under the impression it wasn't just about reverse engineering. Given that Thor said "ALL" the knowledge they had, I would expect to see a progression of plans on how to build X weapon system, or how they learned to process neutronium.

And we really only had 2 people looking through the data, and one of those was to look at the history of the Asgard, the other trying to find a way to make a device do something it wasn't designed to do. I'm not saying they'll be churning out O'Neill class ships in a years time, but I think, given that they likely have full plans to their new weapons (as well as to other technologies), as well as working examples of said weapons, shields, transporters, time dilation devices, etc that it's not going to take a massive amount of time to get viable weapon systems prepared which they could defend Atlantis with.

Assuming they didn't pick McKay's brains en-route and just melt the thing from orbit as soon as they dropped out of hyperspace... Or sit outsystem and huck asteroids at Earth until it runs out of drones... They were actually clever enough to do that last in The Seige as I recall...

And that assumes Earth isn't warned about a possible impending attack, and that they have NOTHING else to help defend Earth with when they arrive. Again, it wasn't a very nail biting cliff-hanger.

They don't really need to. The Asurans have all the knowledge of the Ancients, which at least in bredth if not depth in all areas, is at least the equal of that of the Asgard. What's more, they've the logistics to work with it, an educated population who can contribute to the generation of new ideas... you get the picture. Even with the knowledge of the Asgard, it's still quite easy to make Earth out to be the underdogs. That's not even counting that the Asurans don't die and are immensely superior to humans one-on-one too.

I should clarify. I was technically speaking exclusively about the Wraith threat. Considering the terror the Replicators were on the Asgard, I have every confidence that the Asurans will prove formitable even if Earth develops the Asgard tech. What I don't see is unshielded Wraith Hive ships being a huge obstacle, unless those super beams were some kind of exotic weapon that only works on Ori mothership systems. And even then, the Asgard had other weapons at their disposal far more powerful than I think Wraith weapons have proven to be. The only way the Wraith remain a threat (beyond exotic weapon) is if they just use mass tactics against Alantis and their team, and that plot will get stale pretty fast.

Why? I'm pretty sure we see a jumper fly in through the shield in opening shot of the pilot. They have some kind of shield frequency modulator that lets them do that.

:: Conceeded. If it's been demonstrated enough before, then that's that. Too bad they went back to the frequency brain bug that ST made so famous, though.

[PREDATOR490]

The way this is going, the Asurans want Atlantis destroyed now. Before they were attempting to bullshit around the issue with captures and building fleets to take on the galaxy etc.
Now that Atlantis has been fucked up by their sat weapon then as soon as they pull of their little heist we should see the Asurans going full out at them and Earth. If they can make their own ZPMs then surely they must have lots of ZPM power to send a sat weapon straight to Earth and start their laser slice of the White House or Stargate Command. Failing that, do it to the bridge connecting both galaxies.

In all seriousness, the Replicators could screw Earth up with a single warship just revealing itself to the public. The following instability on Earth should FUBAR the Stargate programs.
If they want to make it really hard for Atlantis then just keep telling the Wraith where they are or that they are alive. You end up having the Wraith either succeed and Earth is distracted long enough for another force to be built or they fail and you have wiped out a good portion of the Wraith and Atlantis.

Better yet... give the Wraith the hyperspace tech to cross the galaxies.

The major problem that comes from SGA and SG1 is the fact they always play up major threats and yet you sit though half a dozen filler episodes that achieve relatively nothing and these big threats only really show balls or capability at the cliff hanger. Followed by them promptly getting cut off and stumped so they cant use that awsome ability again.

Is it too much to ask for some kind of war like DS9 had with the Dominion or Babylon 5 ?
They had fillers but it also carried across the idea of it really being a war they were fighting. DS9 getting lost and having to be retaken etc. B5 coming under serious seige action.

[NecronLord]

Have they come up with something new? Or are they simply improving on the old? I don't recall seeing anything the Asurans have that hasn't been the Ancient's tech writ large or expanded to a logical conclusion. They still have the same body-types as when they were created (as seen in Flashbacks); wouldn't part of New Ideas mean New Looks?

Personally, I have to wonder if the Asurans aren't like the fabled Faerie Lords: Able to mimic and improve, but never create.

No idea. They seem to emulate the Ancients a lot, but that doesn't necesserily mean they're uncreative; the Ancients' culture was essentially static, at least in terms of 'what our city ships look like' and other new looks, for millions of years. The Asurans appear to have only been in that rut for ten thousand.

The writers haven't said 'Asurans are unable to create' so, at least from the context of above 'can they be written to be threatening to post-asgard humans' they can be as innovative as one likes.

[NecronLord]

unless those super beams were some kind of exotic weapon that only works on Ori mothership systems.

Or they might only have one set. Earth doesn't have Asgard logistics. Say making one of those things requires ten kilos of neutronium. Where would Earth get it? They're stuck with making crude tools, to make slightly less crude tools...

They're not likely to be matching whatever Aurila had to build those things (and remember, the Asgard culture as a whole had apparently been preparing for that refit for some time) any time soon. So they've a minimum of one asgard-fitted starship, and I think the remaining Ori ships will probably bump it right up to the top of their jihad-targets-list now.

And even then, the Asgard had other weapons at their disposal far more powerful than I think Wraith weapons have proven to be. The only way the Wraith remain a threat (beyond exotic weapon) is if they just use mass tactics against Alantis and their team, and that plot will get stale pretty fast.

Or the Wraith could come into their own ubertech (and let's face it, beating the shit out of an Earth starship and stealing their computers shouldn't be that hard, if they work at it). As an established spacefaring culture (I know, this is Stargate, where prolonged use of FTL appears to retard common sense) they should be able to utilise such knowledge far better than petrol-age savages.

[CaptJodan]

Or they might only have one set. Earth doesn't have Asgard logistics. Say making one of those things requires ten kilos of neutronium. Where would Earth get it? They're stuck with making crude tools, to make slightly less crude tools...

The same could have been said about many of the advances made in the series, with the difference being that Earth was stumbling about with only reverse engineering as a guide to building the X-302s and X-303. Minus any special tech they have/had (transporters, rings, shields) they still are a huge step above modern space capabilities (Sublight engines, missile technology, metalergy etc).

Considering their homeworld had a source of neutronium, I think getting the material wouldn't be the hard part, it would be refining and processing it. Earth has done a fairly decent job with blindly finding ways of refining exotic materials in the past (Trinium for example), but I agree that particular mineral may be too hard for them unless the Asgard core has information regarding how the Asgard came to be capable of refining and using it.

The limiting factor I see is the time it would take for Earth scientists to process and understand the information, which, yes, might take a few years, and then the construction of some kind of inferstructure. This took several years for Earth to get going for the X-302 and 303 projects, but it was well within the timeframe of Stargate.

As an established spacefaring culture (I know, this is Stargate, where prolonged use of FTL appears to retard common sense) they should be able to utilise such knowledge far better than petrol-age savages.

Naquada-age savages. Get it right. And given the Wraith seem to use primarily organic based technology, I think they'd have as much trouble as Earth in some areas. Certainly their own infurstructure would have to be massively retooled.

What you're basically saying is that the Wraith could well become a frightening force again if they showed more brain power than the humans of the show and actually started fighting smart. Of course, this could be applied to Earth or the Atlantis Expedition as well. It generally is a quality based on the writers' whim that week. As a general over-arching rule, though, I think Earth has been given a major boost in technology beyond the Wraith, and if they exploit that, the Wraith will likely not be much of a threat beyond "evil-doer plan of the week" that you suggest.

Incidentally, I don't really think this is how it will go down. The Odyssey will be destroyed in a final battle with the Ori followers, Earth having only downloaded from the Asgard core about X% much of information, and so their advances are limited in only a few select areas when the plot calls for it. End of problem.

[PREDATOR490]

Well Atlantis has season 4 and Season 5 to play with maximum. Very few spin of series have ever managed to go beyond the 5 season point or even reach it. The only one I can think of is Star Trek and we all know how that ended up going. The major problem is that Star Trek had something of a basis to allow those series to develop.

Stargate dosent have that kind of basis. SGA is basically DS9 and SG1 was TOS. I find it unlikely they would attempt to make another spin off like Voyager or TNG on a ship based setting. The Stargate angle makes ship exploration pointless within the galaxies we have seen so unless you want to have act-of-plot hurl an X303 to the Delta... opps... uhhh other side of the universe then its kinda screwed.
Wouldnt really be Stargate if there is no Stargates in it either, of course we can always have the Ancient cast offs show up who end up being more human hating bullshit bad guys seeding the galaxy with Stargates.

At best I see SGA season 5 ending with Earth finally learning about the Stargate program and maybe pull a B5 "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" view into the future where humans end up becoming the new Ancients / Vorlons etc.

[Zac Naloen]

At best I see SGA season 5 ending with Earth finally learning about the Stargate program and maybe pull a B5 "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" view into the future where humans end up becoming the new Ancients / Vorlons etc.

*cough* You do know they already have a third series in the works?

[NecronLord]

The same could have been said about many of the advances made in the series, with the difference being that Earth was stumbling about with only reverse engineering as a guide to building the X-302s and X-303. Minus any special tech they have/had (transporters, rings, shields) they still are a huge step above modern space capabilities (Sublight engines, missile technology, metalergy etc).

Indeed. I'm suggesting that the writers wouldn't exactly be out of order by giving the Asurans and Wraith equally good, if not better, research and mil-industrial oomph.

Considering their homeworld had a source of neutronium, I think getting the material wouldn't be the hard part, it would be refining and processing it. Earth has done a fairly decent job with blindly finding ways of refining exotic materials in the past (Trinium for example),

Trinium's notably easy to work with, mind. *Eyes an arrow*

but I agree that particular mineral may be too hard for them unless the Asgard core has information regarding how the Asgard came to be capable of refining and using it.

The limiting factor I see is the time it would take for Earth scientists to process and understand the information, which, yes, might take a few years, and then the construction of some kind of inferstructure. This took several years for Earth to get going for the X-302 and 303 projects, but it was well within the timeframe of Stargate.

Naquada-age savages. Get it right. And given the Wraith seem to use primarily organic based technology, I think they'd have as much trouble as Earth in some areas. Certainly their own infurstructure would have to be massively retooled.

What you're basically saying is that the Wraith could well become a frightening force again if they showed more brain power than the humans of the show and actually started fighting smart. Of course, this could be applied to Earth or the Atlantis Expedition as well. It generally is a quality based on the writers' whim that week. As a general over-arching rule, though, I think Earth has been given a major boost in technology beyond the Wraith, and if they exploit that, the Wraith will likely not be much of a threat beyond "evil-doer plan of the week" that you suggest.

Incidentally, I don't really think this is how it will go down. The Odyssey will be destroyed in a final battle with the Ori followers, Earth having only downloaded from the Asgard core about X% much of information, and so their advances are limited in only a few select areas when the plot calls for it. End of problem.

Ouch. Don't give them ideas.

[PREDATOR490]

At best I see SGA season 5 ending with Earth finally learning about the Stargate program and maybe pull a B5 "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" view into the future where humans end up becoming the new Ancients / Vorlons etc.

*cough* You do know they already have a third series in the works?

I thought it was just a rumour or being considered at this point. Is it in actual production ?
If not then I still have doubts that such a series will come about. Watching Stargate go the way of Star Trek isnt that appealing especially when its basis for doing so is considerably weaker.
Star Trek had a logical if poorly implimented way of expanding their universe which Stargate dosent really have given its reliance on Stargates to justify itself.

Would it really be a Stargate spin off if there is no Stargates in it ?
Which means we have a rehash of Atlantis in yet another galaxy with yet another great foe, who yet again are powerful enough to be a threat but Earth curbstomps as always. Of course they could totally go off the wall and actually change the status quo but that has a greater chance of failure. Bit like how Crusade went down the drain despite people loving B5.