Enterprise vs. Concordia

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 01:21pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: The E-D has drilled through over 40 km of solid rock in 19 seconds.
After heavy phaser modifications, if I recall correctly, and lets not forget
NDF effects, which don't work on dense materials, like hull armor....

Do you really think that 12 meter fighter really has 2 meters of armor on the whole thing?

WC2 era fighters have 6 to 10 cm of armor on them. 18 cm on the Broadswords.

Read the fucking link you idiot. I was showing you that the armor is given in a aproximate rating of something like DuraSteele. The Concordia does NOT have 4 meters of armor.

And do you really think that even if they had 4 meters of armor that it would be as effective as kilometers of rock? Do you think it would stop torpedoes that have penetrated the crust of planets upon impact? Do you have any idea just how dense WC armor is or are you just making assumptions?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 01:35pm

Alyeska wrote: Read the fucking link you idiot. I was showing you that the armor is given in a aproximate rating of something like DuraSteele. The Concordia does NOT have 4 meters of armor.

The fucking thing is 900+ fucking metres long and is a fucking DREADNOUGHT. Of course it's going to have 4 metres of armor.

And do you really think that even if they had 4 meters of armor that it would be as effective as kilometers of rock?

Then why are these uberpowerful phasers that penetrate kilometres of
rock shown to have jack shit effects against ship hull in trek?

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-28 01:40pm

While everyone is concentrating on the Concordia's fighter wing I'm wondering what a few salvos of its antimatter guns (which, in the WC canon, bypass shields) or a hit from the Concordia's phase transit cannon would do to the general health and wellbeing of the Enterprise. Not very good things, I suspect.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 01:42pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Read the fucking link you idiot. I was showing you that the armor is given in a aproximate rating of something like DuraSteele. The Concordia does NOT have 4 meters of armor.
The fucking thing is 900+ fucking metres long and is a fucking DREADNOUGHT. Of course it's going to have 4 metres of armor.

Proof?

http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wcsoblackdevastator.shtml

According to your reasoning this Fighter has 4 meters of armor on it. That is a inocorrect. And unlike you, I know something about the series. For starters armor is rated by its penetration value comparison to Durasteele. The Concordia does not have 4 meters of armor simply because it does not use Durasteele as its armor. It uses something better then Durasteele, but it is rated to its equivilant in Durasteele.

And do you really think that even if they had 4 meters of armor that it would be as effective as kilometers of rock?
Then why are these uberpowerful phasers that penetrate kilometres of
rock shown to have jack shit effects against ship hull in trek?

Oh, you mean like when Fed phasers have NDFed off portions of the enemy hull? Completely vaporized sections of enemy ships?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 01:44pm

Enlightenment wrote:While everyone is concentrating on the Concordia's fighter wing I'm wondering what a few salvos of its antimatter guns (which, in the WC canon, bypass shields) or a hit from the Concordia's phase transit cannon would do to the general health and wellbeing of the Enterprise. Not very good things, I suspect.

AMG guns bypass WC2 era shielding. As of WC3 and WC4 AMG guns didn't penetrate shields anymore. You had to batter the shields down, then blast through the armor. You would have to prove that WC2 shielding is similar to the Enterprises shields.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 02:05pm

Alyeske, if i may jump in....
even if the armor was indeed at the thickness suggedted by sheppard, iirc that is HULL armor. what aboust superstructure? 4 meters fore and aft and 5 meters on each side.....does the size of the superstructure even support that? Also i do believe(with near certainty) you are right. the armor in WC is rated in cm equivilant of durasteel, it's a benchmark, like rockwell hardness scale.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 02:07pm

Alyeska wrote: Proof?

Easily. It's a fucking capital ship, hence, has the room for armor.
The Vesisvuius in WCP:SO has 4,000 cm of armor. Even assuming
a 1,000 to 1 ratio of durasteel equivalent/armor, which is really
insanely generous, thats still 1 metre of armor protecting you.

Oh, you mean like when Fed phasers have NDFed off portions of the enemy hull? Completely vaporized sections of enemy ships?

Examples, please.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 02:09pm

MKSheppard wrote: Even assuming
a 1,000 to 1 ratio of durasteel equivalent/armor, which is really
insanely generous, thats still 1 metre of armor protecting you.

Goddamn lack of an edit button and goddamn my shit metric conversion
skillz

I meant 4 metres.....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 02:12pm

MKSheppard wrote: I meant 4 metres.....

*thwacks head* Disregard all previous posting in the last few minutes,
I need to go brush up on my metric skillz.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 02:13pm

Easily. It's a fucking capital ship, hence, has the room for armor.
The Vesisvuius in WCP:SO has 4,000 cm of armor. Even assuming
a 1,000 to 1 ratio of durasteel equivalent/armor, which is really
insanely generous, thats still 1 metre of armor protecting you.

The Vesisvuius? is that even a Concordia class ship? and what exactly is Durasteel (in the WC context) anyway? What is it's hardness? what is it's density? give us a baseline for 1 cm of 'durasteel equivilant' so calcs can be made instead of saying dumb shit like 'its a cap ship, it has room for armor'

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 02:16pm

Col. Crackpot wrote: The Vesisvuius? is that even a Concordia class ship?

It's the equivalent from WC Prophecy: SO, he wanted to drag in
Prophecy fighters, so I dragged in the Vesiviuus. I really did fuck
up big time on my math, I picked too large a number.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 02:29pm

hey sheppard , on a side note, i noticed you location. the nautilus is one hell of a cool ship. i've been through her several times. it's a pretty cool museum. so i take ityou live in groton? if so about a half hour or so away the uss saratoga foundation has opened a museum up at india point in providence with an old soviet boomer. the very same ship they used to film K-19 the widowmaker. it's actually pretty funny to see the diference between what the ruskie's were building and what we built.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 02:33pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:hey sheppard , on a side note, i noticed you location. the nautilus is one hell of a cool ship. i've been through her several times. it's a pretty cool museum. so i take ityou live in groton?

No, I live in Maryland. I did visit the USS Nautilus once on a family trip
though. My avatar and location is a homage to Disney's 20,000 Leagues
under the sea.

As for the armor thickness, armor has to be thick, no matter what, even
if it's uberarmor that is incredibly dense, in order to resist projectiles
effectively.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 02:49pm

doh! that went right over my head. lol

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-28 02:56pm

Even if phasors aren't very effective against the hull, the QT's should be able to handle it pretty well imho.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-28 02:58pm

apocolypse wrote:Even if phasors aren't very effective against the hull, the QT's should be able to handle it pretty well imho.

They would have to close into firing range then...it would get messy

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 03:04pm

Coaan wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Even if phasors aren't very effective against the hull, the QT's should be able to handle it pretty well imho.
They would have to close into firing range then...it would get messy

the concordia does have pretty good point defence weaponry, i imagine torps could be picked off fairly easily at sublight. With the bulk of all that armor and whatnot restricting manuverablity of the concordia, perhaps warp strafing would be a good idea.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-28 03:59pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Coaan wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Even if phasors aren't very effective against the hull, the QT's should be able to handle it pretty well imho.
They would have to close into firing range then...it would get messy
the concordia does have pretty good point defence weaponry, i imagine torps could be picked off fairly easily at sublight. With the bulk of all that armor and whatnot restricting manuverablity of the concordia, perhaps warp strafing would be a good idea.

It would be a fantastic idea if it actually existed.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-28 04:09pm

Couldn't they use the picard manuever? (sp?) Since Confed doesn't have any knowledge of it, they won't expect it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 04:18pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Coaan wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Even if phasors aren't very effective against the hull, the QT's should be able to handle it pretty well imho.
They would have to close into firing range then...it would get messy
the concordia does have pretty good point defence weaponry, i imagine torps could be picked off fairly easily at sublight. With the bulk of all that armor and whatnot restricting manuverablity of the concordia, perhaps warp strafing would be a good idea.

WC point defense weapons can shoot down enemy torpedoes roughly 50% of the time. QTs travel a hell of a lot faster and are a lot harder to stop.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 04:24pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Proof?
Easily. It's a fucking capital ship, hence, has the room for armor.
The Vesisvuius in WCP:SO has 4,000 cm of armor. Even assuming
a 1,000 to 1 ratio of durasteel equivalent/armor, which is really
insanely generous, thats still 1 metre of armor protecting you.

That is not proof. I have already pointed out that fighters are rated in the meters for armor. Now unless your saying that they put superior armor on fighters then their capitalships, your entire statement is idiotic. You further ignore the fact that I have stated MULTIPLE times that WC armor is given an equivilant rating. They don't have 400CM of fucking armor because they don't armor their ships with Durasteele. Get it through your pathetically thick skull that the 400 CM rating is a comparison rating. If you had half a mind, you would take note of the fact that SHIELDS are also rated in the CM standard. They are rating armor and shields to a comparison of some other type of material.

Oh, you mean like when Fed phasers have NDFed off portions of the enemy hull? Completely vaporized sections of enemy ships?
Examples, please.

FC, Borg ship has hull damage spread out after phaser fire stops. Insurrection. Larger hole then the size of the phasers is created. Then we also have plenty of examples of Breen, Cardassian, and Dominion weapons being fired and after the beam stops the hull it continued to be eaten away.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 04:26pm

And are worth a couple megatons generously.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 04:26pm

(refering to Q-torps)

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 04:59pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And are worth a couple megatons generously.(refering to Q-torps)

*sigh* that simply is not a logical assumption. can we agree that the weapons in trek are at least AT LEAST an order or magnitute more powerful than modern day weaponry? that being said the mainstay of the US nuclear arsenal is the W-80 thermonuclear warhead. it has a yield of appx. 1.1 MEGATONS. Do you mean to tell me that you honestly believe that in three hundred years explosives technology has not progressed by at least an order of magnitude? THAT IS NOT LOGICAL considering the fact that nuclear weapons technology has progressed from 10-14 kiloton hiroshima type weapons to the past the megaton level in less than sixty years.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:05pm

On-screen evidence is canon. Period. It is "illogical" the engineers of the fictional ST Fed Starfleet would allow the Galaxy warp core to remain in service after the first failure.

Furthermore, are World War I firearms longer ranged, more powerful, and better at stopping infantry then modern rifles?

Yes, they are.