NX-01 at the Battle of New Caprica

[Starglider]

One thing to keep in mind is that nuclear weapons today are a lot less strong than say nuclear weapons during the 1960s.

Modern nuclear weapons are (with very few exceptions) much smaller and lighter, for use on small, MIRVed ballistic missiles rather than strategic bombers and huge liquid-fueled ICBMs. The yield per tonne steadily improved over the course of the cold war, for any given weight class (the highest absolute efficiencies are only achieveable in large weapons).

This is not the case for Trek. Photonic torpedoes use almost identical casings to TMP and TNG era photon torpedoes.

So I don't think you can draw a straight line and say that photonic torpedoes are weaker than movie torpedoes just because they are older.

Yes, I can. They're the same physical size and almost certainly have lower reaction efficiencies and a lower safe antimatter fill mass. They're first-gen, weaponised prototypes; equivalent to the very first nuclear weapons. Indeed if their development parallels that of nuclear weapons, the 'theoretical maximum yield' reached by the DS9 era (according to the DS9 tech manual, PTs are maxed out - thus necessitating the development of quantum torpedoes) will be a few hundred times that of the original photonic torpedoes.

That would seem to indicate that Raiders are armed with nukes in about the 50 kilton range.

Not surprising given how tiny those raider missiles were; comparable to a modern air-to-air missile. The ones fired by the base ships are much, much bigger.

[Chevron_Seven]

Starglider: Not surprising given how tiny those raider missiles were; comparable to a modern air-to-air missile. The ones fired by the base ships are much, much bigger.

Yet Pegasus managed to survive being hit by three nuclear missiles fired by baseships while Galactica was severely crippled by one missile from a raider. Unless we are to believe that Pegasus is several orders of magnitude tougher than Galactica that would tend to imply that capital ship nukes probably aren't much stronger than raider nukes. Especialy when we consider that it didn't take that much of a pounding to render Pegasus out of the fight over New Caprica. Though as others have pointed out the point of Cylon nukes is pretty irrelevant because the Cylons rarely use them despite ample chances to wipe out Galactica with them. On the otherhand we know a single 50 kilton nuke will do heavy damage to Galactica and battlestars seem to be tougher than basestars. That means based on the lowend of Reed's statement even if he was boasting a bit a single photonic torpedo hit could do signficant damage to a basestar.

Matt Huang: Chevron, the problem is that the NX-01 lacks the rate of fire to overwhelm Cylon point-defense, even if all that consists of is a Raider-wall.

We have seen the Cylons use point defenses when? The only thing we've seen resembling point defenses on Galactica is her flak barrage and the point defense cannons on Galactica and Pegasus. Is there a single case where a basestar has managed to shoot down anything that a battlestar has fired at them? The rounds from the main battery of Pegasus moved no faster than a photonic torpedo yet as far as I know we have never seen a basestar attempt to intercept a round.

Matt Haung: The NX-01 was also significantly damaged by a quarter-kiloton blast against the (unpolarized at the time) hull. While it certainly is less vulnerable to damage when the hull is polarized, the NX-01 at the end of the Xindi arc isn't in top of the line condition either, so we can use the unpolarized hull as an extreme lower-limit for durability.

As I mentioned up thread my intent which didn't come across clearly in the first post. Was this is Enterprise after the end of the Xindi Arc and after the ship has been repaired.

[Darwin]

Especialy when we consider that it didn't take that much of a pounding to render Pegasus out of the fight over New Caprica.

Well, you have to take into account that Pegasus was minimally crewed at that time, and probably didn't have all her normal damage control teams.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yet Pegasus managed to survive being hit by three nuclear missiles fired by baseships while Galactica was severely crippled by one missile from a raider. Unless we are to believe that Pegasus is several orders of magnitude tougher than Galactica that would tend to imply that capital ship nukes probably aren't much stronger than raider nukes. Especialy when we consider that it didn't take that much of a pounding to render Pegasus out of the fight over New Caprica. Though as others have pointed out the point of Cylon nukes is pretty irrelevant because the Cylons rarely use them despite ample chances to wipe out Galactica with them. On the otherhand we know a single 50 kilton nuke will do heavy damage to Galactica and battlestars seem to be tougher than basestars. That means based on the lowend of Reed's statement even if he was boasting a bit a single photonic torpedo hit could do signficant damage to a basestar.

Combat isn't that simple! You cannot assume that a 50kT device really does that much damage to a Battlestar in normal circumstances. Look at the case of the Taiho: An incompetent damage control operation resulted in the ship being lost from a single torpedo hit which should not have impaired its combat capability at all, because of a simple mistake. The same thing happened in a different way with Shinano's untrained crew. Generally speaking, ships don't just "stand up" to damage to a certain point and then blow. Active damage control is required to keep the damage from a single hit from becoming progressive. If a conventional missile were to strike the bay of an unmanned Battlestar, it would easily eventually destroy it through progressive fires, because nobody would be there to put them out. In the same way, a 50kT fighter nuke can cause significant damage to an unprepared, undermanned vessel.

[K. A. Pital]

STUKAS? Ouch. That hurt.

Stukas. Attacking a space ship from a very distant future. Right... Good god, why? Screenwriters like this need to be thrown into very deep pits where no one will ever give them a note of paper.

[Gil Hamilton]

To buttress Duchess' reply, her point is exactly what we see in the Battlestar Galactica miniseries when the Galactica gets hit with a nuke. The Battlestar wasn't damaged in a really significant way by the nuke except in for some sections in the flight, which was on fire. Their damage control crews rushed to put it out, but it wasn't enough and the fire was possible going to spread to the fuel lines in the flight pod. So Tigh ordered the section sealed (over Tyrol's protest, because some of the damage control team was still in their fighting fires) and had the air in the section evacuated to space to put out the fire.

This illustrates what Marina was talking about. Tyrol's decision was to continue fighting the fire with handheld gear (due to the destruction of the water mains in that section), but Tigh made a decision to evacuate the section to space. Tyrol didn't want to do it because of the crews still inside the second, who might or might not survive this depending one what gear they happened to be wearing. A single human decision, not structural damage to the ship itself, was the difference between the not crippling loss of a couple sections and a few of the crew, and quite possibly the entire ship or the entire flight pod being destroyed. Experience comes into this, it's very likely that Tyrol or the other guy at the Damage Control Console had never even been in more than than a drill, while Tigh was an experienced (if drunk and belligerent) officer with actual combat experience.

[Braedley]

Yet Pegasus managed to survive being hit by three nuclear missiles fired by baseships while Galactica was severely crippled by one missile from a raider. Unless we are to believe that Pegasus is several orders of magnitude tougher than Galactica that would tend to imply that capital ship nukes probably aren't much stronger than raider nukes.

After Galactica plummeted some insane distance through the atmosphere. It was already hurting when it jumped out.

Especialy when we consider that it didn't take that much of a pounding to render Pegasus out of the fight over New Caprica.

You have got to be kidding me! Pegasus was being raped up the ass by at first three Basestars, and then a fourth, yet it still survived long enough to ram one of the Basestars. Without flack or fighters, the two main defences for a Battlestar. I may be mistaken, but I think one of the reasons why they didn't bother trying to save the Pegasus was because FTL was knocked out near the beginning of the fight.

Though as others have pointed out the point of Cylon nukes is pretty irrelevant because the Cylons rarely use them despite ample chances to wipe out Galactica with them. On the otherhand we know a single 50 kilton nuke will do heavy damage to Galactica and battlestars seem to be tougher than basestars. That means based on the lowend of Reed's statement even if he was boasting a bit a single photonic torpedo hit could do signficant damage to a basestar.

Yeah, if the NX-01 survives long enough. They'd be raider swarmed and missile spammed just like Pegasus and Galactica, and it definitely can't take it like the Battlestars

[CaptJodan]

The NX-01's weapons and targeting systems were damaged earlier in the episode; so Reed had to aim by eye. That was why they slowed down.

Took far too long to get back to this, but that's how it goes.

The problem is, I don't think that excuses the multiple passes a 1940-ish eara bomber was able to have on Enterprise. Enterprise should be perfectly capable of a boom and zoom maneuver that allows them to hit the target once they've identified its location. That they were wasting their time trying to hit these Stuka's that some claim weren't even a threat rather than concentrate all their efforts on hitting the facility itself is another mistake.

Stas: You know, it would have at least made MORE sense had it been an ME-262 or even a flight of 109s or 190s. A Komet or a Salamander would have done fine also. It wasn't like the writers couldn't make it so these funky weapons could be fitted aboard any such aircraft. (If you could have a 50mm gun in the 262 like the A-1a/U4, you should easily be able to carry those little pellet shooter energy cannons.) Some writer obviously just had a hard-on for seeing a Stuka battle it out with a starship. The excuse that Stukas were used over that of other types because it was famous falls pretty flat, as 262s, 190s, and 109s were probably equal, if not more famous, and certainly better adapted for the role.