Dig out the Space Marines

[starfury]

I think WR was being sarcastic, man. He just forgot the [/Rabid Trekkie] at the end of the statement

Yeah I thought so too, the statement being too outragous to be made by somebody like him, that helped cleared up everthing.

[Lord Revan]

And lets not forget that the Blood Raven's castellum in North Vandea was described as almost impossible to defeat apart from 2 major weaknesses, and this was in a icy plains rather a narrow pass and the Blood Raven's aren't exactly seige specialist either (they probably lack the nessery hardware to mount a large scale seige("flesh over steel" rule in the tabletop game).

[Ford Prefect]

Let's see... Low-profile armor, right? Stops (most) bullets, but bolts are explosive (aren't they?), so I'm going to say the Toughs will take a lot of casualties in spite of the grunts' ability to fly with their magic gravitic stuff. Likewise, I don't see their coilguns getting past the Marines' armor.

Keep in mind that the ammunition in guass guns is explicitly mentioned to be explosive. I think it was in the strip where we were first introduced to gunfoam, actually - there was certainly something aobut the detonation of the charge in the bullet and the gunfoam going off extremely close together, hence why there was only one BANG! sound effect.

[Gullible Jones]

Ah, got a link? I figured the rounds weren't explosive based on their not affecting low-profile armor, where as high explosives have been seen to affect armor (the case I most vividly remember involved a Gatekeeper in a full powered suit and a piece of explosive feces).

[Ford Prefect]

Ah, got a link? I figured the rounds weren't explosive based on their not affecting low-profile armor, where as high explosives have been seen to affect armor (the case I most vividly remember involved a Gatekeeper in a full powered suit and a piece of explosive feces).

There are almost seven years of strips. Over two thousand individual updates. You're asking me to go an find a single instant out of all these.

Pfft.

[Winston Blake]

700 Sentinels from the machine faction in the Matrix films and get a pair of agents as support (assume can perform any feat seen in the Matrix)

Machine gun fire can destroy a squid, a bolter is likely to destroy it and all those standing next to it. The agents are unlikely to be successful at using kung fo to take on someone wearing full power armour.

'Machine guns' that were obviously larger than an M2 HMG and fired explosive rounds. More like 20mm autocannons. They may even be more powerful than bolters.

[MJ12 Commando]

The Agents have 700 spare bodies and the demonstrated ability to dodge bullets as long as they aren't at point-blank range.

They also have superhuman strength.

The *best* method the Agents have of dealing with the SMs is getting the APUs to run in the opposite direction, taking their guns, and using them on the SMs.

Those things were, at a rough glance... 30mm? 40mm? Somewhere around there-they should be able to wound a Marine with sustained fire, and Agents have 700 lives if they get the APUs to run away real fast.

Not that they'll likely win, but they'll probably inflict some losses.

[Ford Prefect]

'Machine guns' that were obviously larger than an M2 HMG and fired explosive rounds. More like 20mm autocannons. They may even be more powerful than bolters.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that Godwyn pattern boltguns are almost 20mm.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Aren't the sentinels the only other enemies in the scenario with the agents? So no fresh bodies or machine guns.

[Lancer]

More information about the weapons that Tagon's Toughs carry.

Note that the low-profile body armor the Toughs wear is perfectly sufficient to deflect rounds fired from gauss/gunfoam pistols.

[Gullible Jones]

Hmm... In that case it may handle bolts as well. 20 mm is kind of big, it would depend how much momentum and KE the suits can handle.

On the other hand, Wikipedia says something about bolts having a "depleted deuterium" core - unless the WH40Kverse uses a different definition of "deuterium", we might be talking about a pygmy fusion bomb stuffed into a bullet, which would probably be sufficient to vaporize fullerene armor and the tissue beneath it.

That being said, it looks to me like the Toughs have a lot more raw power at their disposal (annie plants). If they've got anything better than G/G pistols, they'll probably win.

[MJ12 Commando]

Oh. I was confusing the APU scenario with the Sentinels.

Sentinels are actually fairly impressive, all things considered, so my opinion still stands that they lose a few SMs but win in the end.

[Gullible Jones]

Although Sentinals look quite cool from what I've seen, it was my understanding that they have no ranged weapons whatsoever?

[Lost Soal]

700 Federation troops armed with some air support in the form of a pair of Delta Flyers.

The Marines will lose this one. The troops are blips who would be massacred in seconds, however the two Delta Flyers are too much.
While the Fed isn't rated very highly in space combat and concentrated heavy weapons fire could probably punch through the shields given enough time, it could not be done fast enough to stop the flyers launching a dozen torpedoes which will obliterate the Dread and any Marines in the pass

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Delta flyers can't fit a dozen torpedoes. Maybe micro-torpedoes, but do we have any evidence about their yield? Do we even know how tough their shields are? SMs regularly take on fast, air-skimming vehicles, many of which are no doubt more densely armored than the Delta Flyer, so I don't think it will have quite the advantages you expect it to.

Also keep in mind that the IFs are from a universe that uses orbital bombardment and absurdly powerful artillery in its ground warfare, and they've had a week to prepare for it.

[Winston Blake]

'Machine guns' that were obviously larger than an M2 HMG and fired explosive rounds. More like 20mm autocannons. They may even be more powerful than bolters.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that Godwyn pattern boltguns are almost 20mm.

I checked '.75 in in mm' in google before posting, hence 'may even be'. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a gun which is actually bigger than a space marine might be more powerful than a short-barreled single-handed weapon.

On the other hand, Wikipedia says something about bolts having a "depleted deuterium" core - unless the WH40Kverse uses a different definition of "deuterium", we might be talking about a pygmy fusion bomb stuffed into a bullet, which would probably be sufficient to vaporize fullerene armor and the tissue beneath it.

WH40K almost certainly uses a different definition of "deuterium", since the phrase 'depleted deuterium' is gibberish. Besides, do you assume that modern tank rounds are mini-fission bombs just because they use depleted uranium?

Although Sentinals look quite cool from what I've seen, it was my understanding that they have no ranged weapons whatsoever?

Yeah it's pretty stupid. All they've got is those little grenade-drone-missile things, like the one that blew up a 'hovercraft'. The lasers are presumably short range.

Anyway, all I was saying was that a bolter would not be 'likely to destroy [a Sentinel] and all those standing next to it.'

[Ford Prefect]

I checked '.75 in in mm' in google before posting, hence 'may even be'.

I prefer a manual approach with my stainless steel ruler.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a gun which is actually bigger than a space marine might be more powerful than a short-barreled single-handed weapon.

I think it's unreasonable, simply on the basis that where boltguns fire small anti-armour rockets, the bullets used by Zion are all hand milled. Certainly the APU guns were able to dismantle Sentinels with considerable ease, and they are most certainly not larger than a Space Marine. There are Space Marines bigger than APUs, for example.

And more to the point, durability is almost certainly in the Marines favour if the Sentinels can be taken out by something like a 20mm autocannon - in Nightbringer (as I recall), a Space Marine saves a woman from being dismembered by propping himself over her and taking the hits against his backpack, with pretty much no ill effect. As a lower limit, this is 20mm.

[Winston Blake]

I think it's unreasonable, simply on the basis that where boltguns fire small anti-armour rockets, the bullets used by Zion are all hand milled.

I can only remember the scene with the ridiculous hand-filled RPG rounds, not any ammunition. Ignoring the patina of bullshit that pervades the Matrixverse, there has got to be heavy industry going on in Zion, or maintaining all their crap would be impossible.

I don't see how simply being a rocket and being anti-armour grants bolts superior status. Gyrojet rounds are an old idea, and shaped charges aren't special (as Iraqi EFPs and WWII improvised anti-tank munitions show). I admit that I'm not as familiar with 40k as I'd like, so maybe there is something about ~12 gauge boltguns that makes them unexpectedly powerful.

Certainly the APU guns were able to dismantle Sentinels with considerable ease, and they are most certainly not larger than a Space Marine. There are Space Marines bigger than APUs, for example.

I didn't know that. I was just assuming they were about yay big:

Compared to an APU such as:

And more to the point, durability is almost certainly in the Marines favour if the Sentinels can be taken out by something like a 20mm autocannon - in Nightbringer (as I recall), a Space Marine saves a woman from being dismembered by propping himself over her and taking the hits against his backpack, with pretty much no ill effect. As a lower limit, this is 20mm.

That's fine, I was just contesting the point that Sentinels were taken out by mere 'machine guns', hence super-awesome bolters would = 'lol devastation'. Obviously the guns above are more than just machine guns, and the smallest thing I know of that is not a 'machine gun' is a 20mm autocannon.

Reconsidering that, it's hard to understand what could be inside those APU guns. Obviously they're far bulkier than a real 20mm, yet the ammunition looks fairly small.

[Ford Prefect]

I don't see how simply being a rocket and being anti-armour grants bolts superior status. Gyrojet rounds are an old idea, and shaped charges aren't special (as Iraqi EFPs and WWII improvised anti-tank munitions show). I admit that I'm not as familiar with 40k as I'd like, so maybe there is something about ~12 gauge boltguns that makes them unexpectedly powerful.

It might have something to do with the massively more advanced technology available to them. Thermal effects alone would sugesst one to two kilograms of TNT equivalent.

I didn't know that. I was just assuming they were about yay big:
*snip*

First off, there's no actual frame of reference for that picture. While I doubt he's a particularly massive example of Space Marine kind, he's going to be approaching two and a half metres tall.

Compared to an APU such as:
*snip*

There are have been Space Marines that have required bits of Dreadnaught to use as armour. I can't remember exactly how NecronLord phrased it, but 'sometimes veritably enormous' fits.

That's fine, I was just contesting the point that Sentinels were taken out by mere 'machine guns', hence super-awesome bolters would = 'lol devastation'. Obviously the guns above are more than just machine guns, and the smallest thing I know of that is not a 'machine gun' is a 20mm autocannon.

Reconsidering that, it's hard to understand what could be inside those APU guns. Obviously they're far bulkier than a real 20mm, yet the ammunition looks fairly small.

I think we can assume it is just a feature of the madness of APUs.

[Dendrobius]

Seems like concensus has been reached in that with the exception of the two Star Wars forces, everybody else gets slaughtered.

Question: how about 700 FORCE:Ground soldiers from Hyperion-verse? Say they're all equipped with what Kassad was running around with the first time he duelled Moneta, but with no other support. How would they fare?

[Imperial Overlord]

Seems like concensus has been reached in that with the exception of the two Star Wars forces, everybody else gets slaughtered.

Question: how about 700 FORCE:Ground soldiers from Hyperion-verse? Say they're all equipped with what Kassad was running around with the first time he duelled Moneta, but with no other support. How would they fare?

FORCE wins. The bhees from the FORCE multirifle alone can shoot through a palace and bore holes a quarter of a kilometer long through solid rock.

[Winston Blake]

I don't see how simply being a rocket and being anti-armour grants bolts superior status. Gyrojet rounds are an old idea, and shaped charges aren't special (as Iraqi EFPs and WWII improvised anti-tank munitions show). I admit that I'm not as familiar with 40k as I'd like, so maybe there is something about ~12 gauge boltguns that makes them unexpectedly powerful.

It might have something to do with the massively more advanced technology available to them. Thermal effects alone would sugesst one to two kilograms of TNT equivalent.

Ah, so they are indeed 'lol supertech'. Given that I can't even understand what 90% of an APU gun's volume is supposed to do, I'll have to concede that bolters are almost certainly more powerful.

[brianeyci]

Man did anybody have the same reaction as me looking at that APU toy?

I almost barfed out my dinner laughing.

I've seen Matrix before but it was all one huge blur and I wasn't really thinking, but in plastic it looks awful. The guy's expression is priceless. The overly huge guns for no reason just look like overcompensation.

By the way if someone wants to be generous they can calc the firepower of a Delta Flyer from the truck scene in Future's End. A Delta Flyer doesn't need torpedoes or micro-torpedoes to do close air support, but it's fucked unless someone can come up of a shot of Flyer taking a full power phaser or torpedo shot and I can't think of any.

[Peptuck]

I don't see how simply being a rocket and being anti-armour grants bolts superior status. Gyrojet rounds are an old idea, and shaped charges aren't special (as Iraqi EFPs and WWII improvised anti-tank munitions show). I admit that I'm not as familiar with 40k as I'd like, so maybe there is something about ~12 gauge boltguns that makes them unexpectedly powerful.

It might have something to do with the massively more advanced technology available to them. Thermal effects alone would sugesst one to two kilograms of TNT equivalent.

Ah, so they are indeed 'lol supertech'. Given that I can't even understand what 90% of an APU gun's volume is supposed to do, I'll have to concede that bolters are almost certainly more powerful.

Presumably, the extra space fills out the standard-issue Stupid Sci Fi Movie Tacticool Quota.

[Connor MacLeod]

Whether or not the two SW forcecs can pull it off will depend heavily on

a.) What kind of equipment they have, and

b.) what sorrt of tactics they're expected to use.

Now, the seocnd point first. If either force is expected to charge the Space MArines and the Marines defend from a fortified position, they're screwed. Stormies *might* survive certain kinds of lower-end bolter fire (both impact and explosive effects.), but there are weak points (and Space Marines are good shots) and even if the bolts don't penetrate (impact or explosion) they're going to knock around if not injure from force/momentum transfer alone. And if they somehow survived to get up close, then they're definitely fucked, since SM's are stronger and tougher.

The Droids stand a slightly better change in charging, due to the SBDS, Droidekas, and the tanks, but even then its not a guarantee and losses will be heavy amongst the low end droids. And they still suck at hand to hand.

If they can stand off and snipe, then they can stand a chance. Again, teh droids will do better here due to droidekas and tanks (especially, as NL indicated, the tanks.)

As for the first point...

The Stormies to succeed need the heavy long rifles like repeating rifles or the DLT-19/20s. E-11s lack both the range and punch to penetrate otherwise (Bolters can easily reach out to 500-600 meters, longer ranged than the E-11s.) Other than that, the only useful weapons are the TD's and they'd have to be in throwing range (which is unlikely.)

If the Stormies are equipped more like sandtroopers (long rifles, repeaters, and grrenade launchers), then they possibly have the range and firepower to be effective.

The AT-STs are going to be vitually useless unless they outrange the Dreadnought, because they'll basically have comaprable firepower and the Dreadnought is arguably tougher. The only chance is maybe if the AT-ST's concussion grenade launchers are configured for anti-armour (assuming they can, like sticking in proton grenades.) And there's still the heavy weapons...

Battle droids standard armaments (not much larger than an E-11 really) ain't going to be much use either. Again, longer rifles are needed (which I bleieve do exist at elast for some droids.) although their lack won't cripple the Tradefed forces as badly as the stormies, because of the SBDs and Droidekas.

The droid tanks ought to easily outgun the Space Marines and dreadnought, although range is still an issue and that doesn't mean that the heavy weapons crews or Dreadnought cannot hurt them back.