One Space Marine in the Indian Mutiny

[Gullible Jones]

If a they can shrug off a bolter round, maybe. If they can't, no way.

(Even if the shell doesn't penetrate their armor, the sheer force of impact ought to do at least some damage - think of the way a mace blow can hurt a guy wearing plate mail. WH40K doesn't seem to be much for following the laws of physics though, so the Space Marine may be invulnerable to anything and everything that the British troops can throw at him.)

[Stark]

Shhh he's smart so it's impossible to point guns at him, so it doesn't matter how good his armour is!

[Gullible Jones]

Hey, that sounds an awful lot like an OA argument.

(Something else that might work is fire. Flamethrowers are apparently effective anti-infantry weapons in the WH40K universe, if Wikipedia is right. A trap involving a well-hidden barrel of gun powder could also be effective, depending on the range at which the Marine could smell a burning fuse.)

[Cykeisme]

If a they can shrug off a bolter round, maybe. If they can't, no way.

(Even if the shell doesn't penetrate their armor, the sheer force of impact ought to do at least some damage - think of the way a mace blow can hurt a guy wearing plate mail. WH40K doesn't seem to be much for following the laws of physics though, so the Space Marine may be invulnerable to anything and everything that the British troops can throw at him.)

While it's true that the massive acceleration during the transfer of momentum will affect the contents of any armour, no matter how strong, you're assuming a human being inhabiting the power armour.

Space Marines are supposed to jump out of aircraft and hit the ground unassisted on occassion, so presumably their resistance to getting jell-o-fied is far greater.

[Ghost Rider]

*sigh*

This is where math would shut up one party or the other in terms of what would hurt our powered armor friend.

So who wants to actually put something forward instead of "SM rox0rz/suxx!!!!"

[NecronLord]

A Fist is a thinker. His senses are better than you can imagine. He is not going to allow himself to get downrange of a cannon, and if he does, he can unsling his bolter, and destroy the entire apparatus in a single shot faster than the cannon's crew can possibly load and traverse their weapon.

I thought they could shrug off a modern tank shell?

Hell no.

[NecronLord]

Shhh he's smart so it's impossible to point guns at him, so it doesn't matter how good his armour is!

It is when the guns in question are so extremely limited in thier accuracy that they'd need him to stand still while they fire ranging shots. The smallarms, not so much, cannons. Yeah, they're going to have serious difficulty hitting most generic super-soldiers unless they are stupid enough to charge gun emplacements head on like the light brigade, which, this guy being from a chapter of seige experts, it's safe to say he's not going to be doing that. While I'm unaware of Space Marines ever surviving the appopriate transfer of momentum, they can move at considerable, say highway car speeds, which leads me to suspect that the Marine would have to be a moron (say, a Black Templar) in order to allow the relatively slow, imprecise, non-automatic heavy weapons of the time to subject him to the sustained fire required to reliably hit him.

Let's for example, look at an Armstrong Gun, The RBL Armstrong 12-pr Field Gun, introduced to widespread use by the British Army in the 1860s. It's a comparatively small thing I've chosen for its relative suitability for shooting at small targets (due to 'comparatively' lightweight carriage) and the fact that it was a considerable step forward in certain respects - such that the gun-type's inventor, William Armstrong, recieved a knighthood for his work - meaning information is plentiful.

Firing an ~5.44 Kg shot/shell at 372 m/s, with a KE of 376.5 Kj, and a momentum of some 2023.68 kg m/s. Enough to knock him over at the very least. I'm not sure if there's examples of comparable 40K weapons with detail enough to be comparable. This is pretty hefty - lasguns might have vastly more energy, but nothing like the momentum - but attention should be paid to the fact that is still the age of the gunlayer, and having to calculate the elevation for the gun. Unless a Space Marine blunders into a number of them, hitting him will be difficult indeed.

It is of course possible to hit the Space Marine with these by sheer luck, or with heavier rockets, or that he'll accidentally get caught downrange of an artillery battery, but I certainly wouldn't count on it.

[PeZook]

Shhh he's smart so it's impossible to point guns at him, so it doesn't matter how good his armour is!

It's 1857 artillery. Not only is it not designed to fire at single men, it doesn't even have the simplest targetting optics, while the Marine can reliably engage the cannon using his bolter from several hundred meters, from prone position.

If you fired an entire battery at him for long enough, then one of the solid balls would probably hit him out of sheer luck, but then we have to ask: What kind of ruse would you use to draw him before an entire prepared battery of cannons?

That's completely discounting the fact that the Marine does, in fact, possess a considerable advantage in range, accuracy and sensors. He won't always have the luxury of choosing the battle ground, of course, but he has considrable leeway. Like being able to strike at night with no decrease in effectiveness.

As for maths, a mid-XIXth century cannon (like the 20-pdr parrot rifled gun) fired a 10-kg projectile at about 350 m/s.

That gives 612,5 kJ of kinetic energy and 3500 kg m/s of momentum. Not that much, actually, but more than enough to turn a human into paste, so it's a reasonable lower limit, discounting his armor and superhumanness.

Unless I made a really glaring error (it's always possible...), in which case please point it out.

[NecronLord]

Unless I made a really glaring error (it's always possible...), in which case please point it out.

I doubt it, given that my math on a smaller (if rifled) gun is broardly similar.

[Ford Prefect]

In comparison, even the most anemic of .50 BMG rounds has an kinetic energy of over 15,000 joules, and Power Armour should take that like it takes rain, based upon the ornithopter attack scene in Nightbringer. That's an extreme lower limit, given that the weapon was an autocannon, though I can't really find any sort of reliable projectile weights for 20mm calibre ammunition.

Of course, there is momentum to consider. However, I do recall at least one instance of a Space Marine taking enough momentum that he was knocked for several 9maybe even dozens) or metres. It might have been a book featuring Grey Knights, actually.

[PeZook]

In comparison, even the most anemic of .50 BMG rounds has an kinetic energy of over 15,000 joules, and Power Armour should take that like it takes rain, based upon the ornithopter attack scene in Nightbringer. That's an extreme lower limit, given that the weapon was an autocannon, though I can't really find any sort of reliable projectile weights for 20mm calibre ammunition.

Of course, there is momentum to consider. However, I do recall at least one instance of a Space Marine taking enough momentum that he was knocked for several 9maybe even dozens) or metres. It might have been a book featuring Grey Knights, actually.

Momentum is the key here, though. The British don't have anything that can actually penetrate the armor (at least not anything they can use on the battlefield), so their best bet is to hope and try to turn the guy to mush inside it.

I wonder about efficiency of momentum transfer ; If the guy is thrown dozens of meters, he could actually shed quite a bit of this momentum on the way.

[Ford Prefect]

Momentum is the key here, though. The British don't have anything that can actually penetrate the armor (at least not anything they can use on the battlefield), so their best bet is to hope and try to turn the guy to mush inside it.

Yes, exactly. Hence why I actually mentioned it. I don't recall the specific novel, but I think Space Marines have actually survived falls at terminal velocity or close to it, after leaping from Thunderhawks. That might give an indication of exactly how much hitting would be needed

[Dark Hellion]

IIRC in Grey Knights Aluric is flung about 250m, I believe it is also through a several meter thick stone wall. It might be the Terminator who dies though.

Of course, we really don't want to start the what space marines can survive lists. I am pretty sure that various Iron warriors have survived losing just about everything, and then some. Twice.

[K. A. Pital]

Luring him into some sort of underground bunker, then dropping it down would not work? What if they sacrifice high-rank officials to make him come?

[Dark Hellion]

Unfortunately, depending upon the author, the space marine can probably both survive and escape by eating acidicly dissolved soil until he is free. Remember Space Marines can't make babies, as they have had 400 years of wank sucked from their junk and injected into everything else.

[MJ12 Commando]

In comparison, even the most anemic of .50 BMG rounds has an kinetic energy of over 15,000 joules, and Power Armour should take that like it takes rain, based upon the ornithopter attack scene in Nightbringer. That's an extreme lower limit, given that the weapon was an autocannon, though I can't really find any sort of reliable projectile weights for 20mm calibre ammunition.

Of course, there is momentum to consider. However, I do recall at least one instance of a Space Marine taking enough momentum that he was knocked for several 9maybe even dozens) or metres. It might have been a book featuring Grey Knights, actually.

A WWII-era 20mm autocannon shell (from here: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWeb ... viewPage/6) weighs something like ~.125 kg or thereabouts (about a quarter pound).

Use that if you'd like.

[PeZook]

One thing is certain - we can expect some tremendously quick advancement in armor-defeating technology, as every military in the world tries to figure out something that will kill the Marine.

Luring him into some sort of underground bunker, then dropping it down would not work? What if they sacrifice high-rank officials to make him come?

Make the bunker a powder storage room, and have the official volunteer and carry a lantern with him inside.

The problem is that you don't know when the Marine will come, and even then - the success of this plan is not guaranteed, as it depends on the enemy doing exactly what you want him to do. That's always a recipe for disaster...

The Brits could, maybe, try to buy off somebody with access to his armor (sooner or later, he will have to do minor repairs, and thus get out of the suit) to sabotage it, or maybe try and turn the Fist againt the people he's fighting for.

[PeZook]

Unfortunately, depending upon the author, the space marine can probably both survive and escape by eating acidicly dissolved soil until he is free. Remember Space Marines can't make babies, as they have had 400 years of wank sucked from their junk and injected into everything else.

Well, if he is trapped under tonnes of dirt, it will take him considerable time to even remove his helmet. During which the Brits can, say, drill a deep hole and pour acid inside it, or drop a shitload of dynamite in. Their main problem, I think, is that they don't know what exactly the guy is capable of, and it's not like he's gonna tell them "Oh, I can eat rocks, too."

[Prozac the Robert]

Is SM armour self repairing at all? Could something like a cavalry charge with thrown pots of acid do enough damage to fuck him up? Melt his sensors perhaps? Or maybe ruin his bolter?

And how strong is he really? How about the same cavalry but with heavy nets? Enough weighted nets made out of strong cable might hold him in place for long enough to get some cannons aimed or to lob on a few satchel charges.

[PeZook]

Is SM armour self repairing at all? Could something like a cavalry charge with thrown pots of acid do enough damage to fuck him up? Melt his sensors perhaps? Or maybe ruin his bolter?

I don't think the armor is self-repairing, and I wouldn't count on acid pots - charging on herseback with a pot of acid is a...risky proposition, and then you have to throw it with good enough aim to hit something vital and suspectible to acid, all that while the SM is actively resisting.

And how strong is he really? How about the same cavalry but with heavy nets? Enough weighted nets made out of strong cable might hold him in place for long enough to get some cannons aimed or to lob on a few satchel charges.

If you can immobilize him somehow, then it's just a question of sticking dynamite up his helmet, from the neck, and voila - scrambled SM head.

This is a good idea, actually, but deployment of such a net would be a real pain, and then you need to catch him on your terms, which itself is a major problem.

[Aaron]

Is SM armour self repairing at all? Could something like a cavalry charge with thrown pots of acid do enough damage to fuck him up? Melt his sensors perhaps? Or maybe ruin his bolter?

And how strong is he really? How about the same cavalry but with heavy nets? Enough weighted nets made out of strong cable might hold him in place for long enough to get some cannons aimed or to lob on a few satchel charges.

I haven't seen anything to indicate SM armour is self repairing but I don't own the Codex's. Marines are described repairing their armour in alot of books. Though the serious damage has to be fixed by a specialist.

[K. A. Pital]

I doubt the Earth materials of the time could seriously immobilize the SM for a long time. Burying him under heaps of earth, that I can understand, but a net? He'd tear it to shreds so fast the British would not be able to say UTINNI.

[PeZook]

I doubt the Earth materials of the time could seriously immobilize the SM for a long time. Burying him under heaps of earth, that I can understand, but a net? He'd tear it to shreds so fast the British would not be able to say UTINNI.

A net made out of cable, maybe? It would be useful to quantify SM strenght a bit,and see if he could rip it apart. Also, use lots of them

[white_rabbit]

Is SM armour self repairing at all? Could something like a cavalry charge with thrown pots of acid do enough damage to fuck him up? Melt his sensors perhaps? Or maybe ruin his bolter?

And how strong is he really? How about the same cavalry but with heavy nets? Enough weighted nets made out of strong cable might hold him in place for long enough to get some cannons aimed or to lob on a few satchel charges.

I haven't seen anything to indicate SM armour is self repairing but I don't own the Codex's. Marines are described repairing their armour in alot of books. Though the serious damage has to be fixed by a specialist.

Hmm, stormbolters have "self repair" circuits, and I recall mention of the body glove being self repairs etc.

Nothing like armour reconstituting itself etc though.

I should point out that Marines can mostly spit acid and chew through iron bars, and usually carry really sharp knives

Yes, exactly. Hence why I actually mentioned it. Razz I don't recall the specific novel, but I think Space Marines have actually survived falls at terminal velocity or close to it, after leaping from Thunderhawks. That might give an indication of exactly how much hitting would be needed

Believe it or not, but the normally fairly reasonable Anthony Reynolds has Elysian stormtroopers breaking the sound barrier when they drop into combat, then surviving the deceleration when they are just about to hit the ground.

Marines getting bashed 30 meters, hundreds of meters etc by fist, dark crozius, explosions are all examples available

[NecronLord]

If they can be hurled 30 meters, and survive, then they're likely to survive twelve pounder shots to the chest, given that such a shot would impart around 20 m/s of velocity, if the marine weighed 100 Kg (Probably quite conservative). Cannons do have an advantage in this department, their shells were heavy which is of course, why they had such heavy mountings.

Of course, the twelve pounder is very much a lower limit. Much heavier guns existed, including one sthat could potentially impart hundreds of meters per second of momentum onto a space marine, giving a much higher chance of killing him.

The armour used by Imperial Fists cannot be capable of any particularly sophisticated self-repair. Captain Lexandro D'Arquebus' armour is disabled by Jain Zar in Harlequin and his only choice is to abandon it, and spend the remainder of the book running around naked except for his weapons and some ammunition. Of course, lesser damage could have some kind of internal compensation or re-routing system involved.

As for luring the Space Marine into a trap, it would have to be quite inventive. Remember, it's not just the Space Wolves that have heightened senses of smell, it's all of them. They can probably smell that the basement's full of gunpowder.

The Fists are a fairly bad choice in this kind of thing given that, as shown in the (ancient, but in this respect, not contradicted) novel Space Marine, they select and train their recruits to maximise their intelligence (hence the above quote, 'a fist is a thinker' which is one of their training mantras). Black Templars or Blood Angels would be a choice more likely to blunder into traps, or try a head-on assault toward a gun battery.

However, it's possible that if it becomes necessary for the Space Marine to travel somewhere unseen, as to for example, capture Grant of Campbell, he could be killed, as without the armour, the weapons of the time had considerable power, if (by modern standards) poor range and accuracy.