Stargate - The Ark of Truth

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-12-23 07:07pm

Thor wrote:We can only hope that this will be the last footwear to fall. The coordinates to the planet have already been programmed into your navigational computer. We have modified your engines and structural integrity fields to their maximum potential to assure your safe arrival. We will monitor your progress as best we can. Good Luck.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2007-12-23 08:09pm

Was that from some transcript site or did you just look at the episode? Cause I just have this nagging feeling about it.
Unfortunately season 6 is one of the few seasons I don't have DVD's for at the moment.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2007-12-24 01:36am

But unlike star trek...the writers know about all this technobabble issues...and constantly make FUN of themselves.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-24 04:21am

The problem with technobabble in Stargate is not the actual number of words spoken. The problem is that it totally ruins the original premise. This is supposed to be super-advanced technology, millennia beyond our own. How the fuck could we have developed so much understanding of it in such a short time that we seem to know all about its inner workings and physics principles?

Where were the physics labs testing all of the new principles that must have been learned in order to understand this stuff? How long would it take to even build the equipment necessary to run tests to confirm these theories?

As soon as I saw an episode of Stargate SG-1 where they demonstrated familiarity with and comprehension of the alien technology (never mind the ability to build their own), I felt that it was an insult to the intelligence.

Why couldn't they have kept the original premise from the movie, where this stuff was super-advanced technology that we apes could not understand apart from being able to turn it on and push the buttons? And of course, the answer is comfort zone: the writers are more comfortable working in the familiar territory of people building capital ships based on technobabble that they obviously understand even if we don't, etc. And the whole goddamned show takes place ... how many years in the future? None?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-12-24 05:22am

Darth Wong wrote:Where were the physics labs testing all of the new principles that must have been learned in order to understand this stuff?

Major experiments are done at Area 51 (or 52), as a general rule. The labs there are quite extensive apparently - when we see one of Rodney McKay's 'labs' when he gets a job there, it's the size of a small stadium. It's sheer nuttery of course, but that's where it all happens.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2007-12-24 05:30am

Just out of curiosity, if Stargate had managed to maintain the original premise of advanced technology beyond our ken, would there be any chance SG-1 could have succeeded in dealing with the many threats to Earth in the SG-universe? (Replicators, Apophis, etc)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-12-24 06:26am

Crom wrote:Just out of curiosity, if Stargate had managed to maintain the original premise of advanced technology beyond our ken, would there be any chance SG-1 could have succeeded in dealing with the many threats to Earth in the SG-universe? (Replicators, Apophis, etc)

They only deal with these guys via extreme luck - if Apophis had set off five minutes earlier in the first season finale, he would have conquered earth - anyway. They'd just have to emphasise the roles of their 'friendly aliens.'

I would have preffered the whole prometheus/battlecruiser arc if the Asgard had just plain made the things for humans.

Skylon · Post by **Skylon** » 2007-12-24 10:24am

Darth Wong wrote: Why couldn't they have kept the original premise from the movie, where this stuff was super-advanced technology that we apes could not understand apart from being able to turn it on and push the buttons? And of course, the answer is comfort zone: the writers are more comfortable working in the familiar territory of people building capital ships based on technobabble that they obviously understand even if we don't, etc. And the whole goddamned show takes place ... how many years in the future? None?

I always saw it as USAF wank.

I could follow certain stuff, like them capturing some alien fighters and learning how to fly them (especially with Teal'c around). But the capital ship stuff was the point I felt it hit overkill.

BTW: Not having watched the last few seasons I have to ask, is the cover-up of the Stargate Program still in effect? I remember when Anubis invaded Earth he wiped the Nimitz and its battle group, but still they were able to cover THAT up.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2007-12-24 10:29am

Skylon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Why couldn't they have kept the original premise from the movie, where this stuff was super-advanced technology that we apes could not understand apart from being able to turn it on and push the buttons? And of course, the answer is comfort zone: the writers are more comfortable working in the familiar territory of people building capital ships based on technobabble that they obviously understand even if we don't, etc. And the whole goddamned show takes place ... how many years in the future? None?
I always saw it as USAF wank.

I could follow certain stuff, like them capturing some alien fighters and learning how to fly them (especially with Teal'c around). But the capital ship stuff was the point I felt it hit overkill.

BTW: Not having watched the last few seasons I have to ask, is the cover-up of the Stargate Program still in effect? I remember when Anubis invaded Earth he wiped the Nimitz and its battle group, but still they were able to cover THAT up.

That was a meteor storm.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2007-12-24 11:46am

That's actually the biggest thing that bothers me about the later seasons of the show. Somehow, a big chunk of the Air Force and the civilian government knows about the interstellar brouhaha, and they informed other governments through their ambassadors. The Russians already knew about it and had their own program for awhile, but they seem to keep it on the DL as well.

ALL THESE PEOPLE know about the SGC, and yet the average person does not. That is a bigger violation of SoD to me than Carter having a 250 IQ and the USAF building a Star Destroyer.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-24 12:27pm

Crom wrote:Just out of curiosity, if Stargate had managed to maintain the original premise of advanced technology beyond our ken, would there be any chance SG-1 could have succeeded in dealing with the many threats to Earth in the SG-universe? (Replicators, Apophis, etc)

If Stargate had maintained its original premise, it would not have had to resort to the comic-book plot device of inventing continuously more powerful alien threats in order to keep things hopping. Make no mistake: the cyclic escalation of alien powers was necessitated by their failure to keep the humans limited by the constraints they should have logically had.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-12-24 02:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:From what I heard, it's all time-travel. The Trek-ification of Stargate is complete. It started as a show about jump-gates with a "Chariots of the Gods" flavour, and when I checked in later, I saw all the usual bog-standard Trek-inspired sci-fi cliches: human-built capital starships, technobabble, bubble shields, etc. But adding in a time travel-based plot? That's the kicker.

Let's be fair though. There's something to be said for the better dialogue and acting. If I'm going to watch absurd time travel premises, I'd rather have some witty dialogue sprinkled in that isn't delivered by a bunch of cardboard cut-outs.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-12-24 04:37pm

ray245 wrote:But unlike star trek...the writers know about all this technobabble issues...and constantly make FUN of themselves.

That's a cop-out. Being arch and knowing about the drivel you're writing is no substitute for not writing drivel in the first place

I do find it somewhat telling that the only episodes people seem to remember are the novelty ones - O'Neil and Teal'c in a time loop, for instance, or the Farscape knock-off.

Mind you, I couldn't comment on recent seasons, since Channel 4 in the UK gave up showing Stargate SG-1 years ago, with season 7, I think, and Atlantis season 1.

Bit of a trend, there; they did the same thing with Enterprise, and almost the same thing with Babylon 5. BBC2 gave up on Voyager after season 4. Not that that was a real loss.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-12-24 04:42pm

Having now watched the leaked Ark of Truth, I've got to say, it will probably be quite good when it's done. There were a few things that were a bit dodgy, to my reckoning, but for the most part, it was a good story.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-12-24 05:09pm

I always thoguht the cropping up of mass-lightening was the worst bit in Stagate, particularily since a good many other sci fi shows seemed determined to copycat it as if it were a "better" solution to plain-ol brute force.

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2007-12-24 07:43pm

NecronLord wrote:Having now watched the leaked Ark of Truth, I've got to say, it will probably be quite good when it's done. There were a few things that were a bit dodgy, to my reckoning, but for the most part, it was a good story.

Just caught it. A few plotholes though. For starters, why was Earth so spooked when the Ori fleet showed up in the Sol system? I thought in an alternate reality, we already established that we can use the entire ZPM to cloak the entire planet?

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2007-12-24 08:56pm

Stargate seemed to have suffered from not knowing if it was Arc based or episodic. Some of their best stuff is Episodic (the Aschen, those comedy episodes like 'The other Guys' or that Groundhogs day episode), and some of their best stuff is Arc based (Half of what leads up to defeating Apophis, stuff like 'Summit').

But they didn't take anything anywhere. So Prometheus was introduced. So what? It was a plot device for like five episodes and didn't do crap. Okay, so the Russians were told about the SGC. So what? And so on. You could feel the MPD of having so many writers with different ideas and ignoring minor continuity. The Technobabble got pretty bad over time for this reason as well.

and let's not forget how terrible a lot of their 'Genre Shifting' episodes were that tried to do other stuff. Like that one where Carter and Daniel play X-Files detectives with a town full of people who turn into Goa'uld at night?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2007-12-24 09:04pm

Hmm, love the inconsistant depiction of Ancient/Alteran lifespans. But at least they are consistant on "free will above all else" thing the Ascended beings have going. I wonder what historical events triggered that one.

Altantis rejects die after 10k years in stasis, but Merlin and Morgan where both shown to be in the original ship which left the Ori home galaxy! Also the Stargate network was designed just as the Ancient's left the Ori home galaxy when we see a notebook.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2007-12-25 12:15am

The movie falls between "meh" and "ok" for me. Whoever keeps pushing the replicator stories need to go. Was really hoping for something more epic/original to end the their ultimate badguy story.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2007-12-25 01:28am

Xon wrote:Hmm, love the inconsistant depiction of Ancient/Alteran lifespans. But at least they are consistant on "free will above all else" thing the Ascended beings have going. I wonder what historical events triggered that one.

Altantis rejects die after 10k years in stasis, but Merlin and Morgan where both shown to be in the original ship which left the Ori home galaxy! Also the Stargate network was designed just as the Ancient's left the Ori home galaxy when we see a notebook.

Merlin ascended...then descends again because he is pissed with all those ascended ancients and decided to wipe them out.

Penfold · Post by **Penfold** » 2007-12-25 02:54am

ray245 wrote:Merlin ascended...then descends again because he is pissed with all those ascended ancients and decided to wipe them out.

So, Moros leaves the Ori galaxy for the Milky Way, survives the plague and is on Atlantis when it leaves for the Pegasus Galaxy, then returns to Earth when the Ancients are defeated by the Wraith, and Ascends, only to return to build his weapon, goes into stasis when Morgan destroys it, and dies shortly after he's revived by SG-1?

This means that he lived 4,990,000 years, was an Ascended being for about 9,000 years, came back as Merlin, and died because he spent a millennium in stasis.

You and the writers fail at math.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2007-12-25 03:34am

Penfold wrote:
ray245 wrote:Merlin ascended...then descends again because he is pissed with all those ascended ancients and decided to wipe them out.
So, Moros leaves the Ori galaxy for the Milky Way, survives the plague and is on Atlantis when it leaves for the Pegasus Galaxy, then returns to Earth when the Ancients are defeated by the Wraith, and Ascends, only to return to build his weapon, goes into stasis when Morgan destroys it, and dies shortly after he's revived by SG-1?

This means that he lived 4,990,000 years, was an Ascended being for about 9,000 years, came back as Merlin, and died because he spent a millennium in stasis.

You and the writers fail at math.

Well...I didn't watch the ark of truth...so I have no idea he is alive when the ancients are living the ori galaxy..

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2007-12-25 05:37am

Penfold wrote:
ray245 wrote:Merlin ascended...then descends again because he is pissed with all those ascended ancients and decided to wipe them out.
So, Moros leaves the Ori galaxy for the Milky Way, survives the plague and is on Atlantis when it leaves for the Pegasus Galaxy, then returns to Earth when the Ancients are defeated by the Wraith, and Ascends, only to return to build his weapon, goes into stasis when Morgan destroys it, and dies shortly after he's revived by SG-1?

This means that he lived 4,990,000 years, was an Ascended being for about 9,000 years, came back as Merlin, and died because he spent a millennium in stasis.

You and the writers fail at math.

Where are Morgan and Merlin shown as being on the original ship that left the Ori galaxy?

PREDATOR490 · Post by **PREDATOR490** » 2007-12-25 12:42pm

Having gained access to this... movie... somehow...

I have to say it seemed overly shit to me and I dont mean because the quality of the leak is poor with missing effects. They just HAD to bring in the replicators for fuck knows why even after all the hell they caused before.
If the IOA has any brains it should know that even the Ancients got shafted when they tried to make Replicators as a weapon.

I'm excessively dissappointed with more Ancient / Ori ascended being wanking. They can heal, summon lightning storms and create elaborate traps etc. but the best we get for an Ancient fight is Adria vs. Morgan is a minute of swirling blobs.
Speaking of which, how is it exactly that Morgan can operate in the Ori galaxy yet they couldnt do the same on Ancient territory ?
Morgan said she was an outcast so I'm finding it odd that she can exert her powers in the Ori galaxy without attracting Adria's attention before they depowered her. Even after this Adria should have 2 galaxies worth of non- prior worshippers who arent linked over a single outcast Ancient. I

The acts of plot and general story are pretty underwhelming for the end of a 10 season show with the uber-bad Ori.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-12-25 01:19pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:I have to say it seemed overly shit to me and I dont mean because the quality of the leak is poor with missing effects. They just HAD to bring in the replicators for fuck knows why even after all the hell they caused before.
If the IOA has any brains it should know that even the Ancients got shafted when they tried to make Replicators as a weapon.

No they didn't. Until McKay tampered with them, the Asurans never killed a single Ancient. The Asurans asked to have themselves modified to remove their rage, and the Ancients suceeded, wanting expensable war slaves. When this failed, the Ancients bombed the Asurans, and tried to kill however many million or thousand Asurans existed at the time, and succeded.

It's just that when the Asurans rebuilt, they built a grander city than any the Ancients constructed, and successfully made war on the wraith, until the wraith found an exploit in the (incompetantly written by the Ancients, of course) base code to shut them down. If anything, the Asurans simply showed the Ancients up by being more capable than them. I wouldn't really call that 'shafted.'

The Asurans only succeeded in killing any of the slavers who built them when the Tau'ri accidentally allowed them to alter their base code.

The original replicators were simply given the goal of 'increase your numbers and defend yourselves' which they did faithfully. These ones were presumably given the objective of 'use all means to destroy the Ori' and if that means securing themselves from human aggression in order to best make war on the Ori, so be it.

I was glad to see the old replicators back, and their lethality being acknowledged. What got me was the zombie-replicators. That replicator would surely have been better if it had just pounced on Cam, and sprayed acid on his face. That and the role of the 'queen' model in early infestation seemed over-emphasised - if that were to continue, it'd probably lead to borg-esque dumbing down, but that's not really a worry. Also, the initial replicator probably should have been blue, as it would surely have been made from asgard materials.

I'm excessively dissappointed with more Ancient / Ori ascended being wanking. They can heal, summon lightning storms and create elaborate traps etc. but the best we get for an Ancient fight is Adria vs. Morgan is a minute of swirling blobs.

Because of course, that's not a placeholder segment. All we know about that fight is that it will feature SG1 and Doci cowering on the floor while it goes on.

Speaking of which, how is it exactly that Morgan can operate in the Ori galaxy yet they couldnt do the same on Ancient territory ?

The Ancients are collectively more powerful. They've been forcing their rules onto the Ori. The Ori are not able to simply eliminate unbelievers themselves, remember. The Ancients shield such people.

Morgan said she was an outcast so I'm finding it odd that she can exert her powers in the Ori galaxy without attracting Adria's attention before they depowered her.

As long as Morgan was acting within the rules, the Others would enforce their rules upon Adria. If she stepped beyond what's permissable, they would have punished Morgan directly.

Even after this Adria should have 2 galaxies worth of non- prior worshippers who arent linked over a single outcast Ancient.

I assume that the Priors channel worship somehow (Orlin did say it was a complex process, after all).