The Flood

[NecronLord]

Hm. I wonder if we'll ever see a competent Ancient Race With WTFPWN Tech That Got Wiped Out For A Seemingly Trivial Reason™?

Closest thing to spring to mind are 40Ks Old Ones. Who were competant enough, but were ultimately defeated by thier opponents being incredibly dangerous...

[The Grim Squeaker]

They're not. In Halo 2, during the Scared Icon level, the Arbiter walks through clouds of airborne Flood spores without any NBC gear on him and is completely uninfected.

The one with the energy shields?
Human marines all ended up infected, and the rest may be chalked up to game mechanics. (Grunts do have NBC gear, if not full necessarily BTW).

[Balrog]

The Brutes walked around naked in H2, and the only energy shield Jackles have are mounted on thier arms. No NBC defense against 'spores' and yet they walk around and fight in clouds of them.

The Marines got infected, but every instance was from a big 'un latching on; none of them turned Flood just from inhaling the spores.

[Vanas]

What would be interesting is to know whether a wound would allow the Spores to infect you, as in, it needs to be carried in the blood, sort of thing. Perhaps they just can't survive all that long without getting into a blood stream, or maybe they're not potent enough without it. Just a thought, as they're clearly not affecting people/things just by floating about.

I think we can happily say, though, that even with the Flood at the Pretty Smart stage, only an Infection Form's going to be any use to the Flood. And even then, anyone who's broken the code (brown blobby person = zombie) is going to kill them fast. Looks like you need a lot of Flood, quickly, to be dangerous. If they get a Gravemind, they get more organised and infect faster, but that seems to be about it, unless you're stupid enough to let them steal a galaxy while you're pissing about making planetary scale jewelery. (D 4 L 4 Eva.).

Frankly, I'd be more worried by The Beast or the Phalanx. At least they actually do have the 'not dead until you've fired the Haloes' capability. And the Beast doesn't need Infection Forms.

[Peptuck]

What would be interesting is to know whether a wound would allow the Spores to infect you, as in, it needs to be carried in the blood, sort of thing. Perhaps they just can't survive all that long without getting into a blood stream, or maybe they're not potent enough without it. Just a thought, as they're clearly not affecting people/things just by floating about.

Correct. I believe you need the Infection Form itself alive and in contact for some time to actually infecta nything anyway; in Halo: The Flood, the Chief gets jabbed by an Infection Form in the throat, but Cortana immediately runs an electric current through his suit to kill the Infection Form before it can do anything more than penetrate the neck seal. In Halo: First Strike, Johnson has dead Flood cells rolling through his body from when he was attacked.

On the other end of the spectrum, Mercy has an Infection Form nibbling on his neck for at least a minute before the Chief shows up and rips it off his body, and he takes a while to turn. Truth also didn't have an Infection Form stuck to him, but shows signs of infection for at least a minute without transforming, and even then the Gravemind only speaks through his body. Judging from this and the much faster transformation times that occur when Infection Forms directly latch onto a body and enter, I'd say Infection Forms inject spores into their victims that wil turn them over time, but prolonged contact/penetration of the chest cavity dramatically speeds up the rate of transformation.

[Darth Ruinus]

I'd say Infection Forms inject spores into their victims that wil turn them over time, but prolonged contact/penetration of the chest cavity dramatically speeds up the rate of transformation.

Except in Halo 3 where a spore jumps on a marine and immediately turns it into a flood combat form.

[CaptHawkeye]

I don't have a problem with the Flood as they are portrayed in the canon; my only issues with the subject deal with the Halo installation, particularly the ambiguous nature of their weapon system. It is clear that the Forerunners designed it to kill all advanced organisms in the galaxy

I'm pretty sure Halo 3 made it clear or at least implied heavily that the Forerunner had nothing to do with the "creation" of the Flood. The logs on the Ark said at one point that they were extragalactic invaders. But it's been a while since I've played.

[Peptuck]

I'd say Infection Forms inject spores into their victims that wil turn them over time, but prolonged contact/penetration of the chest cavity dramatically speeds up the rate of transformation.

Except in Halo 3 where a spore jumps on a marine and immediately turns it into a flood combat form.

That's why I said "prolonged contact/penetration dramatically speeds up the rate of transformation." Its obvious from the Prophets' example, and the Halo Graphic Novel that one doesn't need to have an infection form lodged in one's chest to be infected, but the presence results in a much faster transformation.

[Darth Ruinus]

I'm pretty sure Halo 3 made it clear or at least implied heavily that the Forerunner had nothing to do with the "creation" of the Flood.

No one has claimed that the Forerunners made the Flood.

That's why I said "prolonged contact/penetration dramatically speeds up the rate of transformation."

Ooops, sorry, I missed the penetration part.

[Noble Ire]

I don't have a problem with the Flood as they are portrayed in the canon; my only issues with the subject deal with the Halo installation, particularly the ambiguous nature of their weapon system. It is clear that the Forerunners designed it to kill all advanced organisms in the galaxy

I'm pretty sure Halo 3 made it clear or at least implied heavily that the Forerunner had nothing to do with the "creation" of the Flood. The logs on the Ark said at one point that they were extragalactic invaders. But it's been a while since I've played.

I was referring to the Halo installations, not the Flood, as Darth Ruinus pointed out.

I had always assumed that the Flood required infection forms to actually assimilate new organisms, at least under normal circumstances. The threat of the spores seemed to have come from the sheer volume seeded and produced after a Flood invasion, as demonstrated by the state of High Charity even in the early stages of the Gravemind's assault. Presumably, they are capable of growing Flood biomass on their own (as evidenced by the expansive growths on the station's walls), potentially including new infection forms and even "pure form" warriors if conditions are right; it is likely that the complete removal of these spores is difficult, leaving a likelihood of reemergence even if the overt components of a Flood attack are beaten back.

[Connor MacLeod]

A big part of the problem with the Flood (as I see it) and debates involving the Forerunners in general are two fold:

1.) We know SOME about them, some of it is implied (somewhat mythologically in some cases perhaps, but others more historically) what they can or cannot do, how big they were, and so on and so forth.

On the other hand, there's also still alot we don't know (nothing definite on firepower, military size, size of their Empire, etc.) and that can be dangerous, because some people will extrapolate to hell out from what they do know (and many of them do it rather idiotically at that. Not all would be dishonest though, some could just be fanboys or think opinions matter as much as fact.).

2.) The Forerunners ARE an ancient power, they aren't well known, are mysterious adn even somewhat mythological, and what little we do know is pretty impressive. As above, this can lead people to assume they might be nigh-godlike. (Similar logic has long driven rabid Fivers with regards to the First Ones. They're millenia old, so they MUST be super powerful, even if quantitative evidence says otherwise.)

This also leads to further speculation along the lines of "if a can beat b, and b seems to be more powerful than c, then A can beat C." In other words, if the Forerunners really ARE nigh-godlike, and the Flood can still beat them, then you must be nigh-godlike in order to defeat the Flood.

Silly, but it happens alot.

I should also point out that alot of this tends to carry certain assumptions that may or may not be true. There's always the assumption of "isntant/rapid" assimilation, though the evidence for this tends to be rather inconsistent as I recall (depending on who is claiming it. Alot of what I've seen/heard tends to come from "in-game" transformations of characters, for example.)... or that they can automatically assimilate anything (again similar logic to "if they can beat/bypass the nigh-godlike forerunners, then noone can defend agains thtem) in the same vein you see the Borg handled with their assimilation/adaptation, atcaully.

Matters of HOW the fight is carried out (as I've noted) also tend to get ignored. As I said, we don't know EVERYTHIGN about the Forerunners, but we know enough to conclude that for some reason or another, they opted to use organic troops rather than robotic ones, even though they had massive industrial capabilities and sophisticated ground and space-based military automation. Perhaps there is a valid reason for this (even though we've seen TWO AIs that could fight independently and reliably of human control), and I admit it is still possible, but the conclusion I can draw as far as the evidence goes is that the Forerunners were morons, and this tended to contribute GREATLY into facilitating the Flood Victory. (Mendicant Bias' betrayal and hatred of humanity, ther triggering of hte Halos, etc.)

I should also note that the ability of the Flood vs various universes tends to depend on a number of factors:

- Speed/availability of FTL transport. This is a HUGE one. Universes where travel is unpredictable/unreliable, slow, dangerous, or tightly controlled (like with the Imperium in 40K) can be a detriment to the rapid progression of the Flood. WHereas in STar Wars (where FTL travel is plentiful) it can be something of an asset.

This does have a few extra caveats though. It assumes that the Flood invading a system will usually be able to overwhelm planetary defenses, or infiltrate without detection. In some cases it may be true, but not neccesarily a given (In SW, for example, the novel Shatterpoint makes it clear that bio scanners and sterilization is a key part of travelling to a new planet, and suggests strongly that on most worlds you're required to land and go through a starport for health/safety/trade purposes.) Use of fixed/regulated landing sites - ie starports - can also help hamper infiltration. (and if someone isn't using a port, it can also be a sign something is wrong.)

Defenses are the big one. The scope and density of defenses is a big deal, as is things like planetary shields and whatnot.

- Scope/speed of communications. This is a big one too. Sparse, unreliable, or intermittemt/nonexistent FTL communications can be an asset to the Flood, as it limits the speed at which the alarm can be sounded. Whereas fast, reliable,a nd common FTL communication (IE SW Holonet, subspace, etc.) can easily and rapidly spread the warning.

This ties into another "advantage" often touted for the Flood - that the Forerunners/USNC knew about the Flood, knew what it could do, and therefore had warning, but that other universes won't know or understand the flood (at least until its too late.) While they may not immediately know EVERY SINGLE DETAIL about the Flood, it doesn't take much to figure out "invading forces crashed onto our planet, and are turning us all into space zombies!" and devise countermeasures. Indeed, in some universes (like 40K) enemies like that aren't unusual, and means to counter them would probably help against hte Flood.

- competency: A big one, IMHO. The Flood's more dangerous to enemies that allow the Flood time to invade/grow/expand without restraint, or who could be counted on to definitively under-utilize their abilities. (I'm betting we could include the Feddies in this example,)

- Industrial capability and the presence of robotics: This is again, a major asset, because one of the key abilities of the Flood is to convert organic troops (and thus their ships, equipment, etc.) to their cause. Denying them troops or planets or anything like that hampers the Flood, therefore. And universes that can basically spam out large numbers of robot troops, vehicles, ships, and whatnot will also have an advantage, since robots can't be infected, they are more readily expendable. And I imagine logistics are easir.

[Darth Ruinus]

Does anyone have the quote for the Shatterpoint bio-scanner sterilization thing? Sounds like it would be useful when dealing with Flood wankers.

[Peptuck]

Connor's got it right. The main, big example most people would point to regarding the Flood's ability to rapidly assimilate would be High Charity in Halo 2, but that doesn't hold up when you consider that ALL the Flood infestation encountered in that level is localized in the governmental towers right where In Amber Clad crashed. The Flood expanded FAST in that localized area (within roughly one hour) primarily because they had surprise and a civil war on their side. There's not a lot of evidence given regarding how fast the Flood took the REST of High Charity, which is important.

In the Terminals, at least, the Flood take some time to convert a biosphere and overrun a planet, and these are planets that the Forerunners themselves admit have been left weakened and defenseless by their own dependency on the Forerunners themselves for military protection.

[Rytheo]

Does anyone have the quote for the Shatterpoint bio-scanner sterilization thing? Sounds like it would be useful when dealing with Flood wankers.

Does it matter? Anyone infected by the flood is easily recognizable, so that shouldn't be a problem. More to the point SW armies could rely solely upon droids so the risk of infection in battle is basically 0.

[Noble Ire]

Does anyone have the quote for the Shatterpoint bio-scanner sterilization thing? Sounds like it would be useful when dealing with Flood wankers.

Does it matter? Anyone infected by the flood is easily recognizable, so that shouldn't be a problem. More to the point SW armies could rely solely upon droids so the risk of infection in battle is basically 0.

The threat of infection for individual soldiers on the field is not a signficant factor in a Flood invasion scenario. In open combat, while some insufficiently-protected soldiers are likely to be consumed, the major threat an invading force would be stolen weaponry and vehicles in the hands of the Flood, or from sheer numbers of combat forms. The primary concern would be Flood incursions into unsuspecting civilian population centers. If such an event occurs and is allowed to progress to a certain stage, it won't matter what kind of soldiers one deploys to contain the situation; the area is already lost.

[Swindle1984]

Flood suck.

Why the fuck do Halo players wank to then when they are the single biggest thing that ruined Halo games ?

For the same reason that Star Trek fanatics claim that the Borg can "remodulate" their shielding to ward off kinetic impacts and that every 40k versus scenario almost immediately devolves into shouting matches regarding the all but unstoppable corrupting influence of Chaos. People who debate versus subjects generally have a favorite universe, and they tend to make excuses for it; since the primary antagonizing force in a universe in generally one of its most powerful factions, partisans tend to latch onto and exaggerate them beyond all reason.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Flood as they are portrayed in the canon; my only issues with the subject deal with the Halo installation, particularly the ambiguous nature of their weapon system. It is clear that the Forerunners designed it to kill all advanced organisms in the galaxy (presumably intending to shelter themselves in the Shield installations like the one at Onyx), but there seem to be contradictions regarding the Halo pulse's effect on the Flood itself. In Halo:CE, Cortana states that it only "kills their food", implying that the weapon can't actually kill Flood, or at least, not reliably eliminate them everywhere, while in Halo 3, Guilty Spark posits that a "tactical pulse" at the Ark will kill directly kill all of the Flood in the immediate area. It is my assumption that the weapon is lethal to everything at a "close" range, but may not be powerful enough to reliably destroy every last Flood spore at the edges of the effect perimeter; however, this hypothesis has never been directly corroborated.

I also have issues regarding the survival of the early ancestors of the species of the Covenant, but such a point digresses from the subject at hand.

The reason the Covenant even got started was because the Prophets remembered the Forerunners kidnapping them, firing Halo, and then returning them to their home world. They were primitives who formed a religion around the space gods and, after starting a war with the Elites, managed to call a truce and eventuall alliance by convincing them of the same religion by showing them Forerunner artifacts.

The entire Covenant civilization is one giant cargo cult.