Dr. Who Season 2(28) Episode 4 Rewatch:Girl in the Fireplace

[Stark]

Because the windows are open, maybe?

[Straha]

It's really not. Those examples involve actual paradoxes. If they stop the Daleks before they get to Satellite 5, they won't have been on Satellite 5 thus they won't have met them and travelled back in time to stop them. That's a paradox.

Using the TARDIS to travel pack to Myle's being 37 and saving her from killer clockwork robots on the otherhand. Is not a paradox. Why is using the TARDIS rather than the time windows impossible when it won't cause a paradox?

Because the Doctor hasn't come back. The king and all of France has spent years with the Madame de Pompadour and, to top it off, the Doctor has seen her dead body go rolling off the grounds. So the Doctor can't go back without screwing all of history and crossing his own timeline (he's got a note from her saying he never showed up, interfered with the timeline after she had died, etc.)

Now, what the Doctor could have done is, after Rene shows him the fireplace, gone through the fireplace. Gathered up Mickey and Rose and then used the TARDIS to go back in time to get her without going through the window. If he'd done that, no paradox. But he was euphoric about not only not being trapped in France but also about having Rene coming with him in the future and didn't think it through.

[Stark]

He's talking about previously, when the robots seal the windows so they can't walk through; Rose suggests simply time-travelling to the 17th century in the TARDIS, but this is apparently impossible.

So was 'smash the window with the TARDIS', apparently. I mean, even if you assume as I do that the windows basically make the palace conterminous with the ship, the TARDIS would then basically be teleporting, and this is seen elsewhere. It's a plot device which I could conjure up an explanation for, but I prefer to wave my hand and say TIME SCIENCE and just enjoy the story.

Frankly, I'll be remembering this. People pick some inconsequential hole in a brilliant piece of drama, and then turn around and vote 5 for Smith and Jones. What is 'taste'?

[Ford Prefect]

Madame: May I present my lover, Charles I, King of France.
Doctor: Big deal, I'm the Lord of Time.

WIN!

While quite amusing, it would have been nice if someone could have called him on that. He's a Time Lord only by the very skin of his teeth, compared to someone like Romana, who was near the top of the class when she was at the academy. Admittedly, it's not like Rose is going to know the Doctor bombed out in school.

[Stark]

But he was a student activist, man, he was fighting the power! Romana was some nob bitch trying to rule the little people, y'dig?

[Ford Prefect]

But he was a student activist, man, he was fighting the power! Romana was some nob bitch trying to rule the little people, y'dig?

Romana became the President too. QED.

To be honest, I'd like to vote on this episode, but I just didn't catch it when it was showing. However, from what I've read in here, it would easily have been better than the majority of season 3 that I've seen.

[Stark]

Depending on my mood, it's either the best or second best single episode of the entire series. Utopia is pretty magical too, you see.

[Thanas]

Frankly, I'll be remembering this. People pick some inconsequential hole in a brilliant piece of drama, and then turn around and vote 5 for Smith and Jones. What is 'taste'?

Who did this?

[Atavarius]

This is what I believe Stark is referring to.

[Stark]

I was using generalised hyperbole. Nerds are all too happy, in my opinion, to fixate on some crazy detail (like this one) and then say 'zomg episode fails', and then turn around and lap up complete ship because it has explosions and spaceships. Look at WW3 - a pretty good S1 story, but LOL HAS FAARTZ so nerds hate it.

It's fascinating to me - people will try to be critical hardcases on largely irrelevant details, but can easily handwave away entire piles of complete shit and defend them from objections similar to theirs on smaller matters.

[Thanas]

^I generally agree, but Stark, c'mon - even though WW3 had its moments, the sheer sillyness of the slitheen did suck.

They got a lot better in BoomTown though, which I absolutely love. Margaret Blaine - one of the best villains of the entire series.

[Stark]

No, WW3 was a good story, did things with characters, and introduced the 'no really things have consequences now' thing they ran with until the end of S2. The slitheen were dumb, but so were the geth, the rhino-idiots, etc.

[Thanas]

No, WW3 was a good story, did things with characters, and introduced the 'no really things have consequences now' thing they ran with until the end of S2. The slitheen were dumb, but so were the geth, the rhino-idiots, etc.

I am not disputing any of that. It was a good story. Although the "consequences" had been previously introduced in "Rose" itself and had played a heavy part up to WWIII, but this would be a tangent.

What I am saying is that the giant, green, farting, ham-acted aliens substantually detracted from the quality of the episode. Imagine if they had been played like in Boomtown - less hamming it up, more seriousness and wordplay - the episode would have been way better because you wouldn't be wondering "Ugh. How silly is this?". Like with the Rhinos. I had the same reaction to them. Less to the Gelth, though.

[Stark]

Oh yeah, it definately suffered due to the silliness - my point is that those who instantly dismiss (and there are many on this board who won't even WATCH it because of zomg teh fartz) an episode of those grounds, and then sing the praises of brilliant stuff like Journey's End. That's the disconnect I don't understand.

[Straha]

Oh yeah, it definately suffered due to the silliness - my point is that those who instantly dismiss (and there are many on this board who won't even WATCH it because of zomg teh fartz) an episode of those grounds, and then sing the praises of brilliant stuff like Journey's End. That's the disconnect I don't understand.

I don't get it either. It's not like some of this stuff is "mindless but entertaining" either. It's just pure dumb-fuck boring or mindless, or both. To use our ratings as an example, I can understand Sound of Drums and Bad Wolf being the top two. I don't agree, but I understand. But why is dreck like Smith and Jones, Sontaran Stratagem, and the fucking Shakespeare Code rated in the top ten while episodes like Midnight and Boom Town are rated below average (or almost average)? It makes no bloody sense.

[Revy]

Didn't Journey's End wind up being one of the highest rated episodes of the lot? Maybe there's some kind of inverse quality law going on - the same kind of thing that makes people insist that Plan 9 From Outer Space is actually a very good film. The really really bad episode of Who are so bad people think they're good. Honestly, how else could anyone but a brain-dead zombie consider Love & Monsters to be anything other than pure crap?

[Stark]

Finales and premiers are always popular; if the finale of a season was rated low, that'd be a really bad sign for a series.

[Crazedwraith]

It's really not. Those examples involve actual paradoxes. If they stop the Daleks before they get to Satellite 5, they won't have been on Satellite 5 thus they won't have met them and travelled back in time to stop them. That's a paradox.

Using the TARDIS to travel pack to Myle's being 37 and saving her from killer clockwork robots on the otherhand. Is not a paradox. Why is using the TARDIS rather than the time windows impossible when it won't cause a paradox?

Because the Doctor hasn't come back. The king and all of France has spent years with the Madame de Pompadour and, to top it off, the Doctor has seen her dead body go rolling off the grounds. So the Doctor can't go back without screwing all of history and crossing his own timeline (he's got a note from her saying he never showed up, interfered with the timeline after she had died, etc.)

Now, what the Doctor could have done is, after Rene shows him the fireplace, gone through the fireplace. Gathered up Mickey and Rose and then used the TARDIS to go back in time to get her without going through the window. If he'd done that, no paradox. But he was euphoric about not only not being trapped in France but also about having Rene coming with him in the future and didn't think it through.

No. No. No. No. No!

Read Carefully please: I GET that bit. I'm not talking about that! I'm talking about instead of doing the dramatic climax bit; jumping through the time window and breaking it on a horse. Why he couldn't use the TARDIS then?

At that point he hasn't seen Rene later in her life. As far as I could tell there would be no reason going backing in the TARDIS to save 37 year old Rene FROM THE KILLER ROBOTS would cause a paradox. The Doctor says "Na-uh! Can't do that" but the only reason as far as I can tell is that because if they could they couldn't have the dramatic horse jumping through mirror bit or the emo Doctor-trapped-in-the-past bit.

[Stark]

You just remember your anal destruction of drama when the crap episodes roll around and you're saying 'zomg brainless fun'.

[Crazedwraith]

You just remember your anal destruction of drama when the crap episodes roll around and you're saying 'zomg brainless fun'.

Oh just shut the fuck up Stark. It was just a minor one line complaint before you started all you "lolololollo me parody uz!" shit. At which point I started arguing my point.

Note: I actually ranked this 5/5. It's just the whole: "Lets use the TARDIS!" "Na-uh!" Stuff made me roll my eyes a bit at the convenience of it.

[Stark]

Grow up dickless. Your entire post was redundant, as I'd already mentioned Straha's misunderstanding and talked about how it doesn't really make any sense. It just doesn't matter, and nerds focusing on bullshit details IS incredibly amusing when we're talking review threads of this nature. I mean, shit, even nitpicking little you didn't suggest just driving the TARDIS through the mirror as I did, clearly I'm a nazi!

[Thanas]

Oh yeah, it definately suffered due to the silliness - my point is that those who instantly dismiss (and there are many on this board who won't even WATCH it because of zomg teh fartz) an episode of those grounds, and then sing the praises of brilliant stuff like Journey's End. That's the disconnect I don't understand.

Well, people have not taste, as you said, and those are, after all, still people....Or I guess people are still rooted in the mindset of *OMG. Pretty explosions*.

[CaptainChewbacca]

But he was a student activist, man, he was fighting the power! Romana was some nob bitch trying to rule the little people, y'dig?

What if it was Romana that pulled that ring from the Master's ashes?

[Thanas]

^Why would she? Besides, I doubt she survived. She was the president of Gallifrey during the war and I am quite sure she of all people would not abandon her constituents.

No, if we have to go all timelordy, it would have to be the Rani. Or, you know, the easiest explanation - Lucy Saxon (after all, this could have been their getaway plan.

[DarkSilver]

Rated this episode a 5

I just got home, so I was finally able to get to my Series 2 DVD's and give it a viewing.

To be honest, as good as "School Reunion" was, this for me is Tenant's break-out point from Ecelsson. This is when his Doctor became real. Going beyond this point, there came problems though, how he likes to talk *way* to much, and his "guns r bad k?" thing just drove me crazy.

How is it that everytime I see a RTD byline on the title screen, the show became a little less enjoyable, but seeing Moffat there, and I know the story is going to be high quality?