Stargate "Ark of Truth" - what the fuck?

[Darth Wong]

Instead of Ark of Truth, a nice, 2 hour war movie would have been good.

Say -

Without the Ori, the Priors lose most of their powers, so they go the Gou'ald route and fake it (the staffs still work, and they can use Gou'ald tech to boot), but the SGC + Free Jaf'fa, after learning this go; Okay, no, not again, and we get a big ass space battle out of it. It takes alot, but without the Prior's controlling the ships directly, the Milkway manages to take the day.

This is followed by a trip through the Supergate. Where we find the Priors their have been overthrown by the rebel movement we saw hinted at in the 'Vala inside Daniel's body' at the end of Season 9.

They made those stupid toilet-seat ships too powerful for that, didn't they? It would be a lot easier if the weapon which killed the Ori did so in such a manner that a lot of the Priors were aware of their deaths somehow, thus causing a schism within their ranks as the diehard believers battle against those who realize now that the Ori were not gods after all.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

When was the series at its best? I have only seen the first five seasons, after which they stopped showing it here. There were some good episodes, but on average it was somewhere between DS9 and Voyager... Combat was especially bad for a series that's supposed to be military scifi. I wonder how much FN paid them for switching from the MP5 to the P90. What the hell is wrong with the M4 carbine anyway? (a lot actually, but it's still better than the P90).

Season 3. Not that the surrounding seasons were bad, mind, but the third season was definitely its Golden Age. It was the ideal mixture of things still being "new" and SGC being inexperienced and still trying to explore a galaxy full of nasty stuff, while at the same time the actors and writers had found their characters and were developing them strongly. Earlyseasonitis had cleared up about halfway through season 2.

I do feel your pain on the P90 thing, though. I too cannot fathom why they don't use M4s or at least stick with the MP5s; M4 SOPMOD (or Canadian mockups thereof as the show was filmed in Vancouver, you can see this in all but the very first few episodes wherever M4 mockups are shown: they use a model of optics in service with the Canadian military, not ACOGs) would be perfect for the role SG-1 carries out on a lot of their missions.

The further irony in this is that they actually had to stop using the P90s during season 7 because of ammunitions shortages caused by the Iraq war. So what do they do? They give Carter a bastardized abomination of an M16 family weapon (the weapon itself defies classification, it's that much of a hideous monstrosity concocted in some insane weapons engineer's secret volcano lair).

[Marcus Aurelius]

Season 3. Not that the surrounding seasons were bad, mind, but the third season was definitely its Golden Age. It was the ideal mixture of things still being "new" and SGC being inexperienced and still trying to explore a galaxy full of nasty stuff, while at the same time the actors and writers had found their characters and were developing them strongly. Earlyseasonitis had cleared up about halfway through season 2.

I do feel your pain on the P90 thing, though. I too cannot fathom why they don't use M4s or at least stick with the MP5s; M4 SOPMOD (or Canadian mockups thereof as the show was filmed in Vancouver, you can see this in all but the very first few episodes wherever M4 mockups are shown: they use a model of optics in service with the Canadian military, not ACOGs) would be perfect for the role SG-1 carries out on a lot of their missions.

So I basically did not miss that much... I don't pirate on principle and I have been comtemplating whether to get the later seasons on DVD or not.

About the P90: I believe they either got some money from FN or they chose it because it looked futuristic. The MP5 and the M4 look like standard modern military firearms, but there is nothing special in their look. I suppose switching from the MP5 to P90 could be rationalized by the better armor penetration of the 5.7x28mm bullet, but if I remember correctly, they had AP bullets, which could penetrate the Jaffa armor even for the MP5.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Yeah.

Another thing on the Ori? That whole "They got power from their worshippers" stuff. As in they actually feed on, and get more power from, being worshipped by an entire galaxy.

To put it in perspective, there's one other faction in fiction I know of that sucks energy from worshippers: The Universal Church of Truth. They're from a comic book universe (Marvel Comics to be precise, recently featured in the Guardians of the Galaxy series, which I like). And they fly around in templeships. Powered by religious faith. Yeah.

Though when one thinks about it, Stargate is closer to the "comic book" side of the scale than "less soft sci-fi" like, say, S:AAB, not mentioning at all the hard sci-fi stuff. The lone exception might be the movie sequel novels that weren't part of the SG-1 mythos and had Ra as the only alien, with Earth building Orion drive spaceships and stuff.

Actually, the concept of gods or god-like entities siphoning power from worshipers is a fairly common one in fantasy fiction. The most explicit version I can think of right off hand is from David Eddings, in his interminable The Elenium and The Tamuli. The god of the Elene Church, whose dogma denies the existence of other gods, is, huge, powerful, aloof and scary when compared with the hands-on but rather puny thousand or so Younger Gods of Styricum, who not only have a tiny base of worshipers due to a history of genocidal pogroms by the Elene god's followers, but they also have their worshiper subscription list split a thousand ways.

Why the Stargate folks thought that it would be a good idea to put even more fantasy into their SF...

[Jade Falcon]

Actually, the concept of gods or god-like entities siphoning power from worshipers is a fairly common one in fantasy fiction. The most explicit version I can think of right off hand is from David Eddings, in his interminable The Elenium and The Tamuli. The god of the Elene Church, whose dogma denies the existence of other gods, is, huge, powerful, aloof and scary when compared with the hands-on but rather puny thousand or so Younger Gods of Styricum, who not only have a tiny base of worshipers due to a history of genocidal pogroms by the Elene god's followers, but they also have their worshiper subscription list split a thousand ways.

Why the Stargate folks thought that it would be a good idea to put even more fantasy into their SF...

Not that I've read it for a while, but wasn't this also used in Star Wars:Dark Empire? The Deep Core World of Byss was essentially used as a giant 'battery' for Palpatine to leech the life energy off the populace there?

[Gandalf]

I had trouble watching the Ori episodes without being annoyed that it was basically Christianity in everything but name. They couldn't go that extra distance and say that it looked like Jesus & Pals.

I know that such a thing would be impossible in an American TV environment, but it still shit me.

As for the show itself, I felt that it jumped the shark when the whole Abydos village ascended. That was fucking weak.

[PREDATOR490]

This movie would have went better if they had attempted even a slight attempt at a space battle. The X304 was able to dial into the Ori galaxy and pass through without encountering any resistance which there is no way in hell you can justify beyond writer fiat.

The series had SG-1 fucking with the Ori gate on several occassions with the latter sending a bomb through to kill all the Ascended beings thus the Ori should be placing dedicated warships to guarding that gate but they didnt.

Instead, the closest thing we get to a space battle is watching 4 Ori motherships hammering away at a crippled ship while we get the Replicator subplot playing along inside. Yeah, lets spend a good portion of the film watching a tired enemy of the replicators abuse the ship while the ACTUAL villans sit outside scratching their heads as the once-powerful-beams-of-doom being ignored.
The only thing that situation really serves to demonstrate is that Asgard shields can withstand a shockingly large amount of damage which makes one wonder why the Asgard didnt have a more prominant role during the series. Granted, they were dying but they decided to commit mass suicide rather than help fight the Ori with whatever warships they had left with those shields / weapons ?

[Steve]

This movie would have went better if they had attempted even a slight attempt at a space battle. The X304 was able to dial into the Ori galaxy and pass through without encountering any resistance which there is no way in hell you can justify beyond writer fiat.

The series had SG-1 fucking with the Ori gate on several occassions with the latter sending a bomb through to kill all the Ascended beings thus the Ori should be placing dedicated warships to guarding that gate but they didnt.

Instead, the closest thing we get to a space battle is watching 4 Ori motherships hammering away at a crippled ship while we get the Replicator subplot playing along inside. Yeah, lets spend a good portion of the film watching a tired enemy of the replicators abuse the ship while the ACTUAL villans sit outside scratching their heads as the once-powerful-beams-of-doom being ignored.
The only thing that situation really serves to demonstrate is that Asgard shields can withstand a shockingly large amount of damage which makes one wonder why the Asgard didnt have a more prominant role during the series. Granted, they were dying but they decided to commit mass suicide rather than help fight the Ori with whatever warships they had left with those shields / weapons ?

I always thought the death of the Asgard would've worked better if A) the Asgard Core being on wasn't the equivalent of broadcasting a "Here I am, come kill me!" signal and B) instead of blowing themselves up, the Asgard upgrade Odyssey and the other Daedalus-class ships, give Humans some more tech, and then go around the Milky Way kicking Ori ass. Instead of passively blowing themselves up, the Asgard choose to die saving the galaxy they, y'know, declared themselves the benevolent guardians of.

And after several intense firefights that eliminate the Ori ships in the Milky Way - but which leave the Asgard weakened in numbers from losses - Thor leads the survivors to the Supergate to blow it up. Just that when they arrive, Adria comes through the Gate and unleashes her beefed up Ascended powers on them and wipes them out. The Ancients try and restrain her, since she's 'broken the rules", but the overconfident arrogant asses don't use enough force and she smacks around the Ancients sent to confront her before returning home.

This would also neatly explain why the Ancients followed Morgaine to the Pegasus Galaxy and stopped her from overtly helping Daniel and Vala in telling them the Sangraal wasn't on the two worlds they were asking about, but didn't interfere with Morgraine healing Teal'c, talking to Daniel, and then showing Vala what buttons to press on the Ark, each of them a helluva lot more overt than "The Sangraal isn't on those two worlds".

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, the entire "Ancients" storyline seems like shit to me. Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of the show anyway, but it seems to me that it's strayed so far from its roots it's not funny. They basically went and made up their own version of the Q continuum, for fuck's sake. They should never have made up the "Ancients" or this lame-ass concept of "ascension" in the first place.

[Thanatos]

I wonder how much FN paid them for switching from the MP5 to the P90. What the hell is wrong with the M4 carbine anyway? (a lot actually, but it's still better than the P90).

Having actually fired a P90, I like it and could see why they would carry it as their PDW.

[Thanatos]

Crap, got distracted by the P90.

I stopped watching the show when RDA semi retired. Frankly, I'm glad I did because the show sounds like someone worked it over with a lame bat and then made it put its mouth on the weirdness curb.

[Solauren]

Instead of Ark of Truth, a nice, 2 hour war movie would have been good.

Say -

Without the Ori, the Priors lose most of their powers, so they go the Gou'ald route and fake it (the staffs still work, and they can use Gou'ald tech to boot), but the SGC + Free Jaf'fa, after learning this go; Okay, no, not again, and we get a big ass space battle out of it. It takes alot, but without the Prior's controlling the ships directly, the Milkway manages to take the day.

This is followed by a trip through the Supergate. Where we find the Priors their have been overthrown by the rebel movement we saw hinted at in the 'Vala inside Daniel's body' at the end of Season 9.

They made those stupid toilet-seat ships too powerful for that, didn't they? It would be a lot easier if the weapon which killed the Ori did so in such a manner that a lot of the Priors were aware of their deaths somehow, thus causing a schism within their ranks as the diehard believers battle against those who realize now that the Ori were not gods after all.

At the end of Season 10, the Asguard gave the SGC all there technology + knowledge, including upgraded weapons that riped throught the toilet bowls in a few shots, and upgraded shields that could take toilet-bowl shots.

As well as 'turn anything into anything on file' transporter/replicator technology.

It would be childs play for the SGC to mass produce the Asguard weapons now.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I wonder how much FN paid them for switching from the MP5 to the P90. What the hell is wrong with the M4 carbine anyway? (a lot actually, but it's still better than the P90).

Having actually fired a P90, I like it and could see why they would carry it as their PDW.

Don't get me wrong, the P90 is a fine PDW, but why did O'Neill and Carter have to carry a PDW? Certainly the P90 was the right weapon for Daniel, who was not professional military. A lot better than the pistols he used in the beginning. I realize that O'Neill and Carter were both Air Force officers, but they were supposed to be well trained in small arms handling and combat.

[Thanatos]

Don't get me wrong, the P90 is a fine PDW, but why did O'Neill and Carter have to carry a PDW?

They're the "flagship" team rather than a combat team. They see more combat than the combat teams because they're the main characters, but their official duties are diplomatic and scientific scouting. A PDW is the natural choice for someone with those duties since its compact but still effective if things go to hell.

I realize that O'Neill and Carter were both Air Force officers, but they were supposed to be well trained in small arms handling and combat.

Hate to break it to you, but you can be well trained and still use a P90.
*points to sig*

I liked as a weapon. It has extremely low recoil and its the most controllable weapon I have ever used in full auto. I wish we had them for vehicle crews, as its compact dimensions makes it much easier to store then the M4.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Don't get me wrong, the P90 is a fine PDW, but why did O'Neill and Carter have to carry a PDW?

They're the "flagship" team rather than a combat team. They see more combat than the combat teams because they're the main characters, but their official duties are diplomatic and scientific scouting. A PDW is the natural choice for someone with those duties since its compact but still effective if things go to hell.

Having lighter weapons for the "flagship" team is fine in theory, but ultimately the practice should dictate the weapons choice. And the way I remember it, the SG-1 team was in a pretty intensive combat on a regular basis.

Hate to break it to you, but you can be well trained and still use a P90.
*points to sig*

My intention was not to imply that you were not well trained. I was merely pointing out that its raison d'être was to be the self-defence weapon for personnel who are not supposed to engage in small arms combat on a regular basis.

I liked as a weapon. It has extremely low recoil and its the most controllable weapon I have ever used in full auto. I wish we had them for vehicle crews, as its compact dimensions makes it much easier to store then the M4.

Yes, its probably a very good weapon for vehicle crews, fighter pilots and such, but I don't remember the SG-1 team crewing any vehicles too often either. All in all I don't think that the P90 is crap, but I do believe at least the professional military members of the SG-1 should have carried something with a bit more range and punch.

[Darth Nostril]

Frankly, the entire "Ancients" storyline seems like shit to me. Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of the show anyway, but it seems to me that it's strayed so far from its roots it's not funny. They basically went and made up their own version of the Q continuum, for fuck's sake. They should never have made up the "Ancients" or this lame-ass concept of "ascension" in the first place.

Got the complete boxset of all ten seasons ... there is a definite and very visible downgrade in quality in the last three.
The Ancients storyline started way back, culminating in the battle over Antartica. That should have been the beginning of the end for the Ancient arc, sending the expedition to Atlantis should have spelled the end of the Ancients in the Milky Way.

I'll echo something that was said earlier, the ascension of the population of Abydos was pure wankery, there was no need for it and it robbed the series of the aspect of tragic loss, something they did manage with the death of Dr Frasier but then somehow threw to the wayside.

[Crazedwraith]

I'll echo something that was said earlier, the ascension of the population of Abydos was pure wankery, there was no need for it and it robbed the series of the aspect of tragic loss, something they did manage with the death of Dr Frasier but then somehow threw to the wayside.

Frasier's Death was Season 7, after the Abydos ascension in Season Six's Finale and was attempt to get back the feeling that people could die that they lost with the death dodging inherent in Daniel's ascension. Before that they had a pretty good record of not being shy of killing of re-occuring characters at least, starting with Kowalski in the 2nd episode.

Sadly they reverted to lameness the following season and gave Jacob/Selmak the worst death ever.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Don't get me wrong, the P90 is a fine PDW, but why did O'Neill and Carter have to carry a PDW?

They're the "flagship" team rather than a combat team. They see more combat than the combat teams because they're the main characters, but their official duties are diplomatic and scientific scouting. A PDW is the natural choice for someone with those duties since its compact but still effective if things go to hell.

Having lighter weapons for the "flagship" team is fine in theory, but ultimately the practice should dictate the weapons choice. And the way I remember it, the SG-1 team was in a pretty intensive combat on a regular basis.

This is something Atlantis did a bit better than than SG1, as I recall. The main Atlantis team didn't get themselves into firefights anywhere near as much as SG-1 did, and Atlantis' marine units they sent when they were expecting one used normal assault rifles of some kind (M16s? M4s? I have no idea, I can't tell most guns apart).

[Darth Nostril]

Frasier's Death was Season 7, after the Abydos ascension in Season Six's Finale and was attempt to get back the feeling that people could die that they lost with the death dodging inherent in Daniel's ascension. Before that they had a pretty good record of not being shy of killing of re-occuring characters at least, starting with Kowalski in the 2nd episode.

Yeah I know, bad wording on my part, I meant it to imply Frasiers death followed Abydos, then the writers fiat character invulnerability shields sprang up once again shortly after.

Sadly they reverted to lameness the following season and gave Jacob/Selmak the worst death ever.

That really pissed me off, after Selmak's speech about living for two hundred years as a host before Selmak needed to find a new host, implying that the symbiote would live for centuries to come, we suddenly get to where Selmak dies of old age three years later, killing Jacob in the process.

But then that represents how bankrupt the writers were for new storylines.
The whole Ori thing left me cold, I didn't care one way or the other.
Ark of Truth was just pants, from beginning to end, it didn't engage me at all.
Gripping hand I liked Continuum, it was a return to the old SG-1, tongue in cheek nonsensical time travel bollocks.
So it had a great big reset button, it was meant to from the very start.