Not Digging that WH40K?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-09-24 05:32pm

Warhammer is fun to analyze and watch it broken down, to try and make logical conclusions how it came to be and how it works. The turn off for many is the prevalent GRIM DARK +100000000000000!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to a degree you're not amazed people aren't just label as dsyfunctional emo bitches. And really...look at their subtext "In the dark future, there is only WAR!". That says enough that anyone can form some idea. What punctuates is how everyone is some degree of monster. As a science fiction universe it starts depressing and analysis makes sure you realize, it is worse then one thinks it is. If not one's cup of tea all good.

As all fiction, the major deterrent can be the fanbase. While no more retarded then any popular fanbase of a science fiction bent, it does tend to asorb the dark whiny bitches more then others because of bent. Also, I agree with Necron on the computer bent. It added yet another batch who are dumber then a majority of retard and of course like Starcraft retards they apply game logic to their arguments. Though one can argue this is seen in other fanbases with idealized looks at their society, with Trek being on the definitive forefront.

As for Versus, it's rare just to come across a person to put the effort to doing analysis because that takes actual effort to come up with results that can be peer reviewed and not laughed at. Only Wars really suffers from the reverse because they are top dog. And the size of WH40K makes it easy to spew large shit for numbers and to have morons to masturbate to. Very very few people anaylize. Most just spew some large number they think because they cannot be arsed to research shit.

Course to say that it's fans are dumber then Wars/Trek...really stop swinging your dick thinking it's shinier. WH40K just has the unfortunate addition of retarded dark bent, because of the gothic setting along with nature. One can objectively look at most fanbases and see the majority, like people, are fucking retards.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2008-09-24 05:48pm

'Chant the Litany of Stealth louder, the Emperor can't hear you!'

Really, I think the joke's on those who take the setting as a totally serious window into something else. Sure, there are parts that are, but then you'll hit one of the silly bits and, at least for me, they're all the more awesome because you're not expecting it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-09-24 05:51pm

White Haven wrote:'Chant the Litany of Stealth louder, the Emperor can't hear you!'

Really, I think the joke's on those who take the setting as a totally serious window into something else. Sure, there are parts that are, but then you'll hit one of the silly bits and, at least for me, they're all the more awesome because you're not expecting it.

The Orks encapsulate this idea perfectly, and is one of the major reasons I enjoy 40K. A race where belief of certain looks and color make things better? Sorry, that is a direct stab at the whole darkness incarnate most of 40K and is refreshing to see in fiction at times.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-09-24 06:44pm

Ghost Rider wrote:As all fiction, the major deterrent can be the fanbase.

This.

In my teens I considered 40k like any other universe (ie, pretty lame but a framework for stories). As it has 'matured' and moved more into the public eye, it seems to have become very much more 'self conscious'. 40k fans have always been of the 'zomg head vaporised!!!11' type, but with the new fluff etc there's very little room to move on the setting anymore, and it's just not very interesting. It's an interesting setting, and there's a lot of scope for interesting shit (and I hear from a lot of people the novels are interesting, whether I believe them or not) but the appearance of the game to an outsider - particularly if you listen to fans - is a tedious, post-modern lameness. As GR says, this is common to a great deal of fiction, but it's an obstacle to getting enough perspective on the setting nonetheless.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2008-09-24 07:04pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
White Haven wrote:'Chant the Litany of Stealth louder, the Emperor can't hear you!'

Really, I think the joke's on those who take the setting as a totally serious window into something else. Sure, there are parts that are, but then you'll hit one of the silly bits and, at least for me, they're all the more awesome because you're not expecting it.
The Orks encapsulate this idea perfectly, and is one of the major reasons I enjoy 40K. A race where belief of certain looks and color make things better? Sorry, that is a direct stab at the whole darkness incarnate most of 40K and is refreshing to see in fiction at times.

That's why I play Orks for 40k - they're a mockery of the entire grimdark, because they fight for the hell of it, don't really care whether they win or lose, and their stuff works because they think it does.

To be honest, the only things I really like about 40k are the Orks (as opposed to everything else) and some of the specialty games - I like Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda, and Dark Heresy keeps the doom and gloom down to a more personal level than ZOMG GALAKTIK WAR!

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-09-24 07:58pm

Personally, I like the grimdark. It reeks of the 80s counter-culture that cropped up in a lot of british comics of that era. In general, I like the British tinge to the product, it might be subtle for some people, but it really doesn't take itself seriously at all. It's just a setting probably influenced as much by Monty Python as it is horror, sci-fi and a very 80s British look at religion, World War 2 and 1. Imagine a race of Mr Gumbys, with green skin and a fondness for rioting. That's the orks.

As for hope and its antitheis, it's wherever you find it. The good people are usually the focus of the stories, that you get to write into silly but action-packed, gory, conspiratorial and spooky situations. I've never been connected to the fanbase, but I like the art and the stories I've read. I think Ciaphas Cain appeals to me the most. I cannot knock a universe that has a philosopher called Eyor deDonki.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2008-09-24 08:13pm

I think that's the thing about it; it's not totally grimdark - you need to get the silliness as well - from the fact that one of the founding legions and their primarch is named after a gay victorian poet, to the Orks in general (which actually got more comical as the rest of the setting darkened around them). Some more recent fans only see the grimdark, and are too po-faced to get the joke.

Oh, and "Eyor deDonki"? where did that come from?

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2008-09-24 08:39pm

andrewgpaul wrote:I think that's the thing about it; it's not totally grimdark - you need to get the silliness as well - from the fact that one of the founding legions and their primarch is named after a gay victorian poet, to the Orks in general (which actually got more comical as the rest of the setting darkened around them). Some more recent fans only see the grimdark, and are too po-faced to get the joke.

Not to mention CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2008-09-24 08:40pm

andrewgpaul wrote:Oh, and "Eyor deDonki"? where did that come from?

One of the Ciaphas Cain novels. They have very many silly names and references in them.

I think part of the problem is that people start off thinking that 40k is meant to be Serious Business, and when it turns out not to be, they think the joke is somehow on them.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2008-09-24 09:16pm

I only got into WH40K thanks to the BL 10th anniversary sale and I didn't expect much. But I found I love the over the top ridiculous nature of the setting, after 25 years of Trek and SW it was a relief to find something that made fun of itself.

Like Rye, I'm not connected to the fanbase. The folks on the BL forum are just as nutty as those on the ST and SW official forums and I don't much care for that. But WH40K is best enjoyed with the brain off, the novels at least IMO were never meant to be taken seriously.

Tanasinn · Post by **Tanasinn** » 2008-09-24 09:35pm

40k is, when you boil it down, built entirely on the Rule of Cool, not logic. You have to either get used to the lack of logic (CHANT THE LITANY OF STEALTH) or it'll bug the shit out of you.

Not that you can't have some pretty interesting stories of galactic war in a despotic theocracy, even WITH the Rule of Cool everywhere.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2008-09-24 11:01pm

Coyote wrote:Something about the WH40K setting just turns me off, nay, leaves me cold or even hostile. I don't know if it's th eover-done Goth motif

Actually even many of the fans will admit to disliking all the GRIMDARK of the current 40K, and even mock it. It doesnt change the enjoyment of the universe at all. Of course, maybe this is because I'm more into the novels than the games side. The novels tend to be more diversified in their atmosphere and flavor.

or the rediculous tech or the weird magic stuff,

The only difference between 40K and other sci fi/space opera like SW, or ST or whatever is that they don't try masking the fact its "magic or ridiculous" the way alot of sci fi, even the hard sci fi wanking will. Anything you've seen in 40K will be no better or worse than you would run across in other sci fi, in my mind at least. (I've read the Culture novel "EXcession" and for all intents and purposes you could treat Chaos as being something like that, at least in my mind.)

or just the attitudes of the "ZOMFG t3h WH40K is t3h ub3rzorz!!11" fans.

I admit I haven't run across many of these fans, though I've seen a few. Maybe its just where I hang out.

But there's something about W40K that just rubs me the wrong way. When WH40K is brought up in a "vs." scenario, I feel like WH40K should not be included as a serious contender. It's like going to a high-level state dinner between the US and China where serious concerns are going to be discussed, and the table is set with caviar and steak and things like that, and then some wiseass bring a bowl of Fruit Loops or something.

I can't see why you'd assume that. I've been doing quite a bit of 40K analysis for some time now, and I think I've done a pretty good job of demonstrating that in many respects they have comparable capabilities. They lose out to SW in some respects (industrial capacity, droids in some regards, etc.) but they have other advantages (their psykers are the equal or superior of Force users, and far more numerous, and their ships seem to be far more durable, and they have a fuckload more of them.)

I'm open to arguments in favor, hence I post this here rather than just as a Vent.

i have to ask, what part of 40K are you following? There's the tabletop wargame, but there's also the spinoff RPGs (like Dark Heresy, but also Inquisitor, etc.) as well as the novels (which I happen to follow) There's also the modelling angle I suppose.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2008-09-24 11:03pm

Ghost Rider wrote:The Orks encapsulate this idea perfectly, and is one of the major reasons I enjoy 40K. A race where belief of certain looks and color make things better? Sorry, that is a direct stab at the whole darkness incarnate most of 40K and is refreshing to see in fiction at times.

Or the Ciaphas Cain novels. I have yet to meet anyone who dislikes Ciaphas Cain.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I agree completely. Its fucking retarded. And in any vs. scenario, especially with SW, its ludicrous fans give it a blank cheque of possibilities stilted in its favor, and a bunch of limitations so the other side doesn't splatter them like a bunch of goth morons.

This has to be you're most idiotic, pompous, and retarded statement yet. I applaud your ability to continually suprrise me with your inability to contribute anything tangible to a debatE (except what you can parrot from other people, that is.)

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-24 11:16pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: I can't see why you'd assume that. I've been doing quite a bit of 40K analysis for some time now, and I think I've done a pretty good job of demonstrating that in many respects they have comparable capabilities. They lose out to SW in some respects (industrial capacity, droids in some regards, etc.) but they have other advantages (their psykers are the equal or superior of Force users, and far more numerous, and their ships seem to be far more durable, and they have a fuckload more of them.)

I think he's more refering to how 'silly' Warhammer 40,000 is in comparison to other science fiction universes. I don't think this is a totally unfair position to have, especially if you're looking at the Orks or Chaos, and even the aesthetics of Space Marines can be off-putting, as not everyone likes the knightly orders with guns in spaaaace aspect. It almost certainly has nothing to do with their technological capabilities, and more with the atmosphere of the setting. Not everyone likes to see a giant man in shining armour smashing a twenty foot tall daemon's head in with a hammer, while missiles and lasers fly around like party favours. While Star Wars has its story telling built in fantasy conventions, it is still not quite as literal as 40k - psykers are more clearly wizards than Jedi are, even if Obi Wan is built from Gandalf, right down to the magic sword.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-09-24 11:17pm

99.9% of the stuff you will encounter isn't science fiction. It is science fantasy. And depending on how your tastes lie, you will favor a series depending on which part it plays up, the science or the fantasy. It's a personal thing. WH40K plays up the fantasy angle, and plays it up hard. I'm not a fan of that, I like the science part. As a result, I'm not that big a fan of WH40K. It's not that it's bad, its that it doesn't run to my tastes. I only appreciate the fantasy portion of it when it is being lampooned or satirized (eg Ork heavy things or the Cain books). When it plays up the science angle hard (Abnett books) I can enjoy it, but if it tries taking the fantasy part serious (Ultramarine books) I really just can't get into it.

Given the biases on this forum, I suspect this is the reason for the views expressed here. We favor the science. We tolerate rule bending like FTL or magic energy weapons, and we will turn a blind eye to things like the Force or energy beings, but we prefer things that put science to the forefront.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2008-09-25 01:26am

Coyote wrote:But there's something about W40K that just rubs me the wrong way. When WH40K is brought up in a "vs." scenario, I feel like WH40K should not be included as a serious contender. It's like going to a high-level state dinner between the US and China where serious concerns are going to be discussed, and the table is set with caviar and steak and things like that, and then some wiseass bring a bowl of Fruit Loops or something.

I very much enjoy the grimdark and the endless war and all the incredible over-the-topness of it. Compared to all the shades of gray you see muddled about in the vast variety of sci-fi books and features and games, 40k is unabashedly dark and offers a kind of setting that is in immensely short supply. What I see as 'realism' almost always comes off as minimalism or futurism in science fiction. I just finished Clarke's "The Light of Other Days" and despite that it was written in all seriousness, I never could take it as seriously as even a 40k piece. When they ask me to take the ridiculous as patent fact, that's a suspension of disbelief. When they throw some orky paint on it and say "No suspension of disbelief required," I can somehow accept it more readily, instead of spending my time attempting to rationalize why I shouldn't think it silly.

40k may not be for some people, but it's no worse than any other theme as far as I can tell. If what you're looking for is hard science then you're clearly looking in the wrong place, but the same could be said of Star Wars. Saying that Trek or Wars are like caviar or steak is ignoring a great, swollen mass of their fiction, canon, presentation, and setting. While it may gall you to think that Star Wars vessels could be pounded into scrap by a flying cathedral, the power level of a setting has nothing to do with the worth of a setting. You can't throw a setting out the window just because it's a little silly though.

A good question is, what would you consider to be appropriate at the Big Kid's table? You'll find it hard to put forth any recommendation that all of us here couldn't find some glaring issues with. I think you just need to accept that you have a subjective opinion and no real great logic behind it and you just don't like 40k. That's hardly a big deal, nobody says you have to.

Commander 598 · Post by **Commander 598** » 2008-09-25 02:57am

I like 40k, and while I can see the inherent silliness in the setting I also have no trouble whatsoever in taking it as seriously as anything else. So what if the mindset and abilities of human and aliens civilizations 30,000 years from now don't quite jive with what we think now? That's just the way things are, and it seems to work fairly well for all involved parties.

Also, I'm well read enough to know that EVERY LAST SPECK OF LIFE in the 40k universe is currently murdering another speck of life for it's own survival, there are entire civilizations of varying tech levels out there blissfully ignorant of the galactic horrors threatening to consume them...and hell, even the Imperium doesn't just waltz in and shoot the aliens all the time. The first Cain novel was all about defusing a potential war with the Tau via, wait for it, DIPLOMACY. Alien mercenaries (Namely the Kroot) being in the service of vague Imperium factions is not exactly uncommon either, IIRC. 40k doesn't even live up to it's own grim hype...unless you're talking about Chaos...

Commander 598 · Post by **Commander 598** » 2008-09-25 02:59am

Commander 598 wrote:I like 40k, and while I can see the inherent silliness in the setting I also have no trouble whatsoever in taking it as seriously as anything else. So what if the mindset and abilities of human and aliens civilizations 30,000 years from now don't quite jive with what we think now? That's just the way things are, and it seems to work fairly well for all involved parties.

Also, I'm well read enough to know that EVERY LAST SPECK OF LIFE in the 40k universe is currently murdering another speck of life for it's own survival, there are entire civilizations of varying tech levels out there blissfully ignorant of the galactic horrors threatening to consume them...and hell, even the Imperium doesn't just waltz in and shoot the aliens all the time. The first Cain novel was all about defusing a potential war with the Tau via, wait for it, DIPLOMACY. Alien mercenaries (Namely the Kroot) being in the service of vague Imperium factions is not exactly uncommon either, IIRC. 40k doesn't even live up to it's own grim hype...unless you're talking about Chaos...

Forgot to add, I would like to leave you with this:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/ ... 195108.jpg

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2008-09-25 03:09am

Many people are saying that they don't like the fantasy element of WH40k, and I can certainly understand that. What surprises me, though, is that some people complain that WH40k takes itself entirely too seriously.
Really? This is the universe with psychic soccer hooligans iiin spaaace (Orks) and an Inquisition that makes the witch hunter in Monty Python and the Holy Grail look professional ("An 'innocent' plea is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty." "Innocence proves nothing"), where the Imperial Guard eat Soylens Viridians and entire regiments are sent to the wrong planet due to mix-ups in a bureaucracy straight from the Trials of Asterix. Where giant walking cathedrals battle against space Godzillas and nuns with guns run rampant. If anything, Warhammer is deliberately over the top as often as possible.

Personally, I got into the series because I thought the model spaceships were cool and was interested in finding out where they came from, as I am a sucker for cool spaceships. As a huge fan of Star Wars and Lovecraft, 40k instantly appealed to me. It's the ultimate sci-fi addict's guilty pleasure: you've got fleets and armies battling demons, robots and space-monsters with a tongue-in-cheek sense of humor (or in this case, humour) to top it all off. There's a little bit of something for everyone.

When I want something serious and grimdark, I'll go read the paper, or better yet the News And Politics forum. When I want real literature, I'll read some Steinbeck, Roth, Murakami, or some other literary work. And when I want to blow off steam by plunging into some hilarious entertainment with a high explosion-to-character ratio, I'll go with 40k.

And you know what? At this point in time, the 40k universe is more coherent, more consistent, and of higher content quality than the ST or SW extended universes. Damning with faint praise, I know, but it makes a difference in which books I choose to pick up when I get bored.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-25 04:43am

Commander 598 wrote:Alien mercenaries (Namely the Kroot) being in the service of vague Imperium factions is not exactly uncommon either, IIRC.

Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, depending on how liberal they are, will quite happily induct aliens into their warbands, and it is possible for aliens to get Inquisitorial seals of approval, of a sort. Kal Jerico's sister, I believe, had a Kroot in her employ, to follow up your example, and I'm fairly sure she's an Inquisitor.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-09-25 04:54am

I love 40k because of its preposterous absurdity, so yeah. It's totally manic-depressive and schizophrenic! Just my style!

If anything, Warhammer 40,000 needs more whores. (And less Tau)

Seriously, it's ridiculous, I love it.

Zablorg · Post by **Zablorg** » 2008-09-25 07:53am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I love 40k because of its preposterous absurdity, so yeah. It's totally manic-depressive and schizophrenic! Just my style!

If anything, Warhammer 40,000 needs more whores. (And less Tau)

Seriously, it's ridiculous, I love it.

Don't worry, I'm sure after a while their anime fetish will peter out and they'll salivate over some new race. Eldar, I would expect, unless they've done that already.

I agree with Shroomie, and a small part of the appeal for me is that there is no set environment. I don't know about Fantasy in this regard, but as there are a practically infinite amount of planets this can make for some very good stories. You can even get medieval themes out of it if you so desire.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2008-09-25 08:40am

Ford Prefect wrote:
Commander 598 wrote:Alien mercenaries (Namely the Kroot) being in the service of vague Imperium factions is not exactly uncommon either, IIRC.
Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, depending on how liberal they are, will quite happily induct aliens into their warbands, and it is possible for aliens to get Inquisitorial seals of approval, of a sort. Kal Jerico's sister, I believe, had a Kroot in her employ, to follow up your example, and I'm fairly sure she's an Inquisitor.

Kal's mum is the Inquisitor, his sister is part of her warband/coterie, and is trained as an arbiter.

I like to think that a lot of the problems with the setting are countered by the fact that theres so much scope to it that you can happily avoid the stuff that pisses you off if you are playing some of the games, trying to take the setting as a whole is a little silly, particularly if you just go off, " In the grim darkness of the far future".

Just because its grimdark, doesn't mean there isn't humour, or optimism etc.

I would heartily agree that a lot of silly buggers get involved, but I'd like to see any one say with a straight face that this isn't endemic within every fanbase.

When it plays up the science angle hard (Abnett books) I can enjoy it, but if it tries taking the fantasy part serious (Ultramarine books) I really just can't get into it.

I'd really recommend you get hold of Titanicus by Abnett, its very revealing about the whole mystical bullshit angle of the Adeptus mechanicus, and gives some good hooks for reasons why the handwaving and chanting isn't quite so pointless. Not a hint of "magic", even from the chaos guys, its quite refreshing not to have a screaming gribbly monster erupting out of someones brain as the chaos badguy.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2008-09-25 09:06am

See me, i love 40k.

It's exactly what i always wanted in sci-fi, that is to say, it's the Crusades in space with magic. That's why i love Star Wars too, it's space knights with magic and laser swords. Wizards with space pirates and laser six shooters, fighting psychic space knights in space.

Thank you sir may i have another?

I'm just a whore for science-fantasy. I'm not hiding it, i came out of the sci-fantasy closet years ago. If either SW or 40k ever somehow factored either ghosts, literal ghosts and wraiths, and dragons into the mix i'd probably soil myself.

Also, for some reason it reminds me of a twisted, GRIMDARKZ version of Lensmen, and yes i'm a huge Lensmen whore too. I'm generally a whore i guess but i'm a clean whore, like a call girl, not one of those dirty, crack addicted whores.

Sorry for the 40k/SW love, i know this is a "LOL 40k sux nutz!" thing, i understand it's not everyone's cup o' tea. I could go on for pages and pages about series i despise, starting with the Xeelee series and working down. Just wanted to say that.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-09-25 09:09am

18-Till-I-Die wrote:ghosts, literal ghosts

Warhammer 40,000 has ghosts in it - there are rules for using them ont he table-top, no less. One could make a rather effective argument that Force ghosts are ghosts too.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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