Ranking Stargate Warships

[Batman]

Armour has mass while shields (apart from the generators of course) apparently do NOT. Inertial dampening in the Stargateverse apparently includes a form of mass lightening (or so I remember as per the episode where they had to get the SGC gate off Earth because it was about to explode and decided to use a 302 to tow it-sorry, good at SG-1 episodology, I'm not), but by the same episode, it has limits (the weight of the Gate-32 tons-apparently put a serious damper on the 302's accelleration AND endurance). So either the 302's compensators couldn't extend the field to include the gate, or they couldn't handle the additional mass.
So assuming it's the latter, going with shields over armour makes sense because while armour has mass and thus impacts your speed and maneuverability, shields don't (as long as you have the means to power shields, weapons and engines on full parallel, of course).
Armour has the advantage of always being on, even when every last electrical system on your ship just quit.
Armour has the disadvantage of always being on, even when you're on an utterly boring freight run through intergalactic space where there's nobody around to bother you.
From what I can tell, in Stargate shields are VASTLY more effective than armour (well, hull material, given the frequency with which Goa'uld constructs fall to modern day explosives I don't think they actually USE armour) so them going for shields first seems to make sense.

[Revy]

Armour has the advantage of always being on, even when every last electrical system on your ship just quit.
Armour has the disadvantage of always being on, even when you're on an utterly boring freight run through intergalactic space where there's nobody around to bother you.

Except Voyagers Batmobile armour, mind.

Remember as well, those troop deployment ships used by the Goa'uld (primarily Anubis and his allies, as seen in Last Stand and Full Circle) appeared to be armoured, as the shoulder launch rockets that hit one didn't even scratch the paintwork (or whatever) on the thing. Also, the O'Neill class ships utilise a special alloy that the Asgard developed which was, according to Thor, the strongest material they knew of (at that time). I would imagine then that the hull of the O'Neill and other ships of that class are made to take punishment, perhaps in response to the actual O'Neill having a dig at the Asgard for making super advanced ships that cant even take a little heat (what he says in Nemesis).

[Batman]

Armour has the advantage of always being on, even when every last electrical system on your ship just quit.
Armour has the disadvantage of always being on, even when you're on an utterly boring freight run through intergalactic space where there's nobody around to bother you.

Except Voyagers Batmobile armour, mind.

I assume you're being sarcastic there.

Remember as well, those troop deployment ships used by the Goa'uld (primarily Anubis and his allies, as seen in Last Stand and Full Circle) appeared to be armoured, as the shoulder launch rockets that hit one didn't even scratch the paintwork (or whatever) on the thing.

Assuming those were Tau'ri rockets that isn't anything to brag about. Armour that can shrug off modern day manportable weapons doesn't exactly translate into armour that can withstand MT-GT level firepower (i.e. what Stargate shields have to deal with).

Also, the O'Neill class ships utilise a special alloy that the Asgard developed which was, according to Thor, the strongest material they knew of (at that time).

Which doesn't mean dick, I'm afraid.

[Revy]

I assume you're being sarcastic there.

What for? I know that stuff has been described as stupid, but it is basically armour that can be turned on or off. Not saying that's a good idea, but it's an idea that was put into practice for a sci-fi show.

Assuming those were Tau'ri rockets that isn't anything to brag about.

Right. Because I totally didn't see them shoot down Gliders and Al'Kesh with missiles. The rocket that hit that troop ship didn't even scuff the surface of it. I guess I'm just easily impressed.

Armour that can shrug off modern day manportable weapons doesn't exactly translate into armour that can withstand MT-GT level firepower (i.e. what Stargate shields have to deal with).

Eh? I think you're being overly generous - we've seen Goa'uld weapons fire on the surface of planets. Ignoring the alternate reality 200MT shots that were only mentioned in one episode, and a bunch of unsubstantiated hyperbole from the characters, all we've seen is the equivelant of a few KT, if that. Pretty pathetic. As for the Goa'uld buster nukes that were used against Apophis' ships, I think there's been some dispute over whether they properly detonated as well.

My point is, what ships in Stargate have displayed MG-GT level shots? Even the blasts from an Ori main cannon fired upon Dakara were pretty puny IMO, and that's damn near one of the strongest Stargate ship weapons we've yet seen, able to carve through shields like they weren't even there. The only remotely impressive display of ship-based firepower in Stargate I've yet seen, was when Anubis fired on Abydos, and the damage level there is largely unknown, and may have been amplified by the naqadah of the Gate itself (as Anubis specifically targets the Stargate in the following episode in order to do just that, a tactic that is totally redundant if you have a weapon that can level the whole planet).

Anyway, the unarmoured hulls of the 304's has been show to withstand shots from Wraith cruisers and hive ships without the entire ship being destroyed instantly, so adding any kind of armour at all could only help withstand damage. Especially considering the number of times shields fail, lose power, or get bypassed altogether.

Which doesn't mean dick, I'm afraid.

Right. Sure. The strongest material known to exist to the most advanced race I've seen on the show, designed to serve as the hull for a warship designed specifically to fight one of the deadliest enemies the Asgard have come across. Obviously it'd crumple like tissue paper as soon as anyone looked at it.

I'm not saying it'd take X amount of damage. I'm saying it's an onscreen example of a ship hull being made from what is described as the strongest known material availible to a super advanced race. Add to that the fact that we know that Naqadah can absorb massive amounts of energy and is tough enough to withstand meteor hits (and is one of the elements in the hull material) as well as Trinium, touted to be a certain number of times stronger than steel, and it should be possible for someone smarter than me to come up with some basic estimates as to that alloys strength. Although we have no idea how thick the ships hull actually is though.

[Batman]

I assume you're being sarcastic there.

What for? I know that stuff has been described as stupid, but it is basically armour that can be turned on or off. Not saying that's a good idea, but it's an idea that was put into practice for a sci-fi show.

Doesn't mean the mass goes away when the armour is off. The most (within the confines of Trek) realistic explanation is it's an extension of replicator technology, which means that when the Batmobile armour is off VOY is STILL lugging the mass that goes into it along.

Assuming those were Tau'ri rockets that isn't anything to brag about.

Right. Because I totally didn't see them shoot down Gliders and Al'Kesh with missiles. The rocket that hit that troop ship didn't even scuff the surface of it. I guess I'm just easily impressed.

You are. What that shows is Gliders and Al'Kesh aren't armoured worth shit. Those rockets aren't going to do bupkis to a modern day tank (except possibly inconviniecing it by breaking a tread).

Armour that can shrug off modern day manportable weapons doesn't exactly translate into armour that can withstand MT-GT level firepower (i.e. what Stargate shields have to deal with).

Eh? I think you're being overly generous - we've seen Goa'uld weapons fire on the surface of planets. Ignoring the alternate reality 200MT shots that were only mentioned in one episode, and a bunch of unsubstantiated hyperbole from the characters, all we've seen is the equivelant of a few KT, if that.

Which is already a not inconsiderable order of magnitudes beyond what Goa'uld armour is shown to resist.

My point is, what ships in Stargate have displayed MG-GT level shots?

Most if not all of the capital ships, essentially.

Even the blasts from an Ori main cannon fired upon Dakara were pretty puny IMO,

And you know that was a full power blast because? not that I don't seriously doubt you actually KNOW what a blast of that magnitude would look like,

and that's damn near one of the strongest Stargate ship weapons we've yet seen, able to carve through shields like they weren't even there.

You DO know that statement is USELESS without knowing the strength of the shield, yes? By that reasoning a 1GT weapon piercing a shield and doing 1 MT worth of damage has a power of 1 MT.

Anyway, the unarmoured hulls of the 304's has been show to withstand shots from Wraith cruisers and hive ships without the entire ship being destroyed instantly,

That's because unlike TNG, the SG universe knows that ships don't arbitrarily blow up just because you managed to pierce their hull somewhere.

so adding any kind of armour at all could only help withstand damage.

I note a complete and utter lack of you addressing the fact that apparently, in-universe shields are apparently a lot more efficient than armour and unlike armour DON'T up your mass.

Especially considering the number of times shields fail, lose power, or get bypassed altogether.

I note a complete and utter lack of incidents of armour preventing that.

Which doesn't mean dick, I'm afraid.

Right. Sure. The strongest material known to exist to the most advanced race I've seen on the show, designed to serve as the hull for a warship designed specifically to fight one of the deadliest enemies the Asgard have come across. Obviously it'd crumple like tissue paper as soon as anyone looked at it.
I'm not saying it'd take X amount of damage.

Essentially, yes you are.

I'm saying it's an onscreen example of a ship hull being made from what is described as the strongest known material availible to a super advanced race. Add to that the fact that we know that Naqadah can absorb massive amounts of energy and is tough enough to withstand meteor hits

More or less anything is able to withstand meteor hits. Why don't you give me the mass and velocity of the meteor on impact.

(and is one of the elements in the hull material) as well as Trinium, touted to be a certain number of times stronger than steel,

which isn't particularly impressive, I'm afraid. There's a REASON modern day tank armour ISN'T steel and 'STRONGER' is a relative term anyway.

[Revy]

Doesn't mean the mass goes away when the armour is off. The most (within the confines of Trek) realistic explanation is it's an extension of replicator technology, which means that when the Batmobile armour is off VOY is STILL lugging the mass that goes into it along.

Yeah, I know that I saw that mentioned before. I was only pointing out that it's armour that can be switched on and off at the push of a button, not that it's a good idea, which it is largely considered not to be.

You are. What that shows is Gliders and Al'Kesh aren't armoured worth shit. Those rockets aren't going to do bupkis to a modern day tank (except possibly inconviniecing it by breaking a tread).

Really? I didn't think tank armour was that good. I thought most shoulder launch rockets would use decent AP or HEAT warheads. Does anyone know what type of weapon it is that they were using there? I saw Teal'c fire a Stinger when he was running away, but I don't know what the rockets they fired earlier were.

Most if not all of the capital ships, essentially.

Examples? Because I've seen capships like Ha'Taks fire on planets. I've seen SG1 keep running when those shots hit the ground, and if they were MT level they'd be dead. Instead we see a big chemical level explosion not much more than a C4 blast. I seem to recall as well Ba'als fleet attacking Anubis over Jonas' homeworld. He had every reason to want Anubis dead and no reason to pull his punches, yet the shots that miss and hit the city below did little more than knock chunks out of the buildings. Hardly MT/GT levels blasts.

And you know that was a full power blast because? not that I don't seriously doubt you actually KNOW what a blast of that magnitude would look like,

Because? Oh hell, maybe because it was a deadly weapon that Adria wanted destroyed? Oh no, you're totally right, she set her death ray to 'mild scuffing' level before letting loose on what she describes as the ONE threat in all the galaxy to her and the Ori's goals.

As to what one would look like, well I would expect a MT level blast to AT LEAST look on par with the stock footage of nuclear explosions I've seen, since the shots hit a mountainside in a planetary atmo. Instead, when those shots hit, Landry is able to stand within eyeshot of the blast before running through the Gate, and he doesn't get fried or blinded or anything. I suppose it'd be possible to work out his distance from the blasts and go from there, but you're right, I don't know how to calculate from that. I mean I've read other threads where someone would at least step in and point out whether the visible blasts seen are MT level or not. If someone here said one way or the other, I'd accept that. That's all I ask.

You DO know that statement is USELESS without knowing the strength of the shield, yes? By that reasoning a 1GT weapon piercing a shield and doing 1 MT worth of damage has a power of 1 MT.

You were missing my point behind the statement. You claim that SG ships have MT/GT level weapons as standard. They were clearly outgunned by the Ori ships. We know Ha'Tak shields can take Ha'Tak weapons fire for a time, yet Ha'Tak shields cannot even survive ONE shot from an Ori cannon. Ergo we know from that that Ori cannon shots are stronger than Ha'Tak weapon shots, I'd have thought anyway. So if Ha'Tak ships (as the most common capship in Stargate) have MT/GT weapons as you say, then the logically stronger Ori weapons ought to be on that level if not more.

Despite all of that, Ha'Tak weapons fire on planet surfaces seem far less than even a single MT, as does the apparently more powerful Ori shots. I might very well be wrong because I'm no expert. In that case, all I ask is the same courtesy given to Trekkies when they ask how you know Wars ships have gigaton level weapons - a visible example onscreen backed up by the calcs explaining how they are Gig level shots. Trekkies still deny this even when you provide them with evidence, but I'm at least willing to admit I'm wrong, so I don't think I'm making a hugely unreasonable request.

I note a complete and utter lack of you addressing the fact that apparently, in-universe shields are apparently a lot more efficient than armour and unlike armour DON'T up your mass.

That's because I don't think that at all. I 100% agree with you that shields are more efficient than armour, and that armour does use up mass. Thumbs up. I totally think you're right. All I'm saying is, would it make any sense at all to maybe add some armour for backup? I mean we frequently see Goa'uld personal shields get penetrated, and the Goa'uld get injured or downed because their shield was pierced. Maybe if they had some decent armour on as well, they would have survived. In Trek, the Defiant has ablative armour, which saves it's ass when it's shields get knocked out, or against the Dominion ships with their shield-bypassing beam weapons.

As you say, shields are a better, more efficient defence to employ (at least in these sci-fi shows). I just think that given the number of times shields are knocked out, bypassed, or intentionally dropped (not to mention the hyperspace ambush trick used against the Phoenix and the Repli ships) wouldn't it be prudent to add some armour as a backup? A kind of insurance policy for just such circumstances?

I note a complete and utter lack of incidents of armour preventing that.

Umm, because armour is not actually used? The two exceptions I mentioned have not been observed in space combat for us to tell if their armour would be effective or not (unless you count the possible O'Neill mini-ship seen fighting the Ori invasion, but even with that we never see what happens to that ship).

Essentially, yes you are.

No, I'm not. What I *am* saying is that the Asgard made the hull of one of their ships out of a really tough alloy. What for? Don't know, if I had to guess I'd say to protect it, seeing as it was a warship designed to fight. Didn't say jack about it being able to survive nukes, ori beams, drones or anything. If I did, *that* would be saying 'it can survive X'. Instead, I just pointed out an example of someone making a warship with a strong hull.

More or less anything is able to withstand meteor hits.

What? Umm, can you clarify this please?

I can't provide calcs to back anything up. I would however ask, as kindly as possible, if someone with more math and science skills than me, could please do some sort of calcs or observations. If those show I'm wrong, fine I'll hold my hands up. I used to think Trek ships were far more advanced and powerful than Wars ships, but the observations and calcs I read here convinced me otherwise.

which isn't particularly impressive, I'm afraid. There's a REASON modern day tank armour ISN'T steel and 'STRONGER' is a relative term anyway.

I only mentioned it because I read in another thread that Mike was in favour of steel as a generally good material to use in a wide variety of things. Plus, if the Asgard used Trinium in an alloy that was the strongest material they knew of, for the purpose of seving as the hull of their most advanced warship, I figure it's the right material for the job. And Naqadah is a high-density superconductive material. I also read here that superconductive properties of the Galactica hull could have allowed it to withstand weapons fire in place of shields (Here). Might not a Naqadah hull do the same? I don't know. I just say, Naqadah is dense, tough (stargates made of the stuff take a lot of abuse) and superconductive. I figured then making a hull from a Naqadah alloy might offer some decent protection, though I'll concede that's pure conjecture on my part.

[Stargate Nerd]

Trekkies still deny this even when you provide them with evidence, but I'm at least willing to admit I'm wrong, so I don't think I'm making a hugely unreasonable request.

Well I don't have an example involving the Goa'uld, but in No Man's Land a Wraith Hive ship is hit by a ~1 gigaton missile from the Daedalus and survives, in fact after a brief period of time it not only destroys the Orion, but also puts the Daedalus out of commission. If you recall, two Wraith Hive ships will destroy each other rather quicklike if they start shooting their blue light shows.

Now in Camelot, both the Korelev and Odyssey fires entire salvos of those missiles at the Ori motherships and they don't even scratch them.

[Bilbo]

Trekkies still deny this even when you provide them with evidence, but I'm at least willing to admit I'm wrong, so I don't think I'm making a hugely unreasonable request.

Well I don't have an example involving the Goa'uld, but in No Man's Land a Wraith Hive ship is hit by a ~1 gigaton missile from the Daedalus and survives, in fact after a brief period of time it not only destroys the Orion, but also puts the Daedalus out of commission. If you recall, two Wraith Hive ships will destroy each other rather quicklike if they start shooting their blue light shows.

Now in Camelot, both the Korelev and Odyssey fires entire salvos of those missiles at the Ori motherships and they don't even scratch them.

When have we ever seen missiles take down the shields on any ship? As far as I can remember any time they are fired on Goa'uld or Ori ships they just explode with little effect (though most impact the shields instead of fully detonating). I am going to have to watch the episode you mentioned. If you are right it would be one of the only times an Earth ship fired missiles at a Wraith Cruiser and didnt have them shot down or rammed by a Wraith Dart.

Earth's main problem is their missiles are slow as hell. Speed wise they appear more in line with Tomahawk missiles which fly very slow as opposed to ICBMs which operate at multiple levels of mach and would at least remove the chance of Wraith darts destroying them with suicide rams.

[Bilbo]

Doesn't mean the mass goes away when the armour is off. The most (within the confines of Trek) realistic explanation is it's an extension of replicator technology, which means that when the Batmobile armour is off VOY is STILL lugging the mass that goes into it along.

Yeah, I know that I saw that mentioned before. I was only pointing out that it's armour that can be switched on and off at the push of a button, not that it's a good idea, which it is largely considered not to be.

You are missing the point. The armor cannot be turned on and off. What can be turned on and off is the replicators built into the base of the armor that regenerates it when damaged. Whether or not these are turned on though the armor is still there and adding mass to the ship.

In fact this armor is the worst type possible. It is armor so it adds weight to the ship and reduces performance. But it is also like shields in that it requires power to be the most effective. Especially when you consider that to be useful as described it is an ablative armor which constantly breaks off when damaged instead of being strong enough to repel some of the attack fire. Which suggests that if you depower the replicators that repair the armor an enemy may core through the armor very quickly.

[Revy]

You are missing the point. The armor cannot be turned on and off. What can be turned on and off is the replicators built into the base of the armor that regenerates it when damaged. Whether or not these are turned on though the armor is still there and adding mass to the ship.

In fact this armor is the worst type possible. It is armor so it adds weight to the ship and reduces performance. But it is also like shields in that it requires power to be the most effective. Especially when you consider that to be useful as described it is an ablative armor which constantly breaks off when damaged instead of being strong enough to repel some of the attack fire. Which suggests that if you depower the replicators that repair the armor an enemy may core through the armor very quickly.

Yeah, it's a pretty crappy idea, but that's Voyager for you. Mind you, would it work better if they used holographic armour instead? Does holomatter have mass? I'm not sure. It seems to appear solid, and can simulate the texture of matter. We saw one instance where Voyager projected holo ships to divert Kazon fire, and the enemies weapons fire was stopped by the projections. If that's the case then holographically projected armour could cover the hull without adding to its mass, and could be switched on or off as desired. Mind you, that's not very different from shields really. In fact it's probably worse, since you need the energy requirements to create simulated armour instead of a simple forcefield or barrier, which would do the same job. I can only guess that there might be some merit to it, seeing as Voyager bothered to expend the energy to project holo ships to fight the Kazon, in addition to providing power to the shields ... though that could be down to the whole stupid 'holodeck energy not compatible with rest of ship systems' nonsense.

Well I don't have an example involving the Goa'uld, but in No Man's Land a Wraith Hive ship is hit by a ~1 gigaton missile from the Daedalus and survives, in fact after a brief period of time it not only destroys the Orion, but also puts the Daedalus out of commission.

I vaguely recall that fight. Did they actually tell us the warhead yield for the missiles? I can't remember, I thought the only gig sized nukes used in Stargate were the Gatebusters and the Horizon weapon platform. I'm not so sure the 304 anti-ship missiles are gig sized, though I admit I can exactly recall.

Either way, the nuke caused serious damage but did not destroy it outright. Ironically though a Wraith ship is one of the few ships that dont use shields, and uses armour instead.

The Orion was destroyed however because theu had to divert shield power to weapons just to fire the drones in the first place. Without it's shields it got hammered and destroyed in a matter of moments. If it had been fully operational, and able to use both shields and weapons, then it would have been a different story. And a shorter one.

Earth's main problem is their missiles are slow as hell. Speed wise they appear more in line with Tomahawk missiles which fly very slow as opposed to ICBMs which operate at multiple levels of mach and would at least remove the chance of Wraith darts destroying them with suicide rams.

What aout MRV type missiles? Like a missile that splits into a bunch of smaller missiles, each carrying a nuke. They use missiles like that in Andromeda, I recall, specifically to counter anti-missile defences by overwhelming them through numbers.

[Revy]

I'm not so sure the 304 anti-ship missiles are gig sized, though I admit I can exactly recall.

Sorry, meant to say I can't exactly recall.

[Bilbo]

What aout MRV type missiles? Like a missile that splits into a bunch of smaller missiles, each carrying a nuke. They use missiles like that in Andromeda, I recall, specifically to counter anti-missile defences by overwhelming them through numbers.

Are you talking about real life MiRV of the Andromeda version? The real life Earth version are built to throw three smaller nukes at a target for better coverage on impact than one single large nuke. This off-set any problems with targetting accuracy and got more warheads on target with less launchers. Its not a defensive adaption.

All the SGC needs is faster missiles though they will probably retain the same missiles since right now the Asgard beam weapons are build capable for Earth and are the end all be all weapon right now in the Stargate Universe.

[Stargate Nerd]

When have we ever seen missiles take down the shields on any ship? As far as I can remember any time they are fired on Goa'uld or Ori ships they just explode with little effect (though most impact the shields instead of fully detonating). I am going to have to watch the episode you mentioned. If you are right it would be one of the only times an Earth ship fired missiles at a Wraith Cruiser and didnt have them shot down or rammed by a Wraith Dart.

Well afaik the only time a missile impacted shields without going off was when Apophis was about to attack Earth at the end of Season 1, though there is still some disagreement over whether they did explode but couldn't damage the shields or whether or not they impacted prematurely.

Earth's main problem is their missiles are slow as hell. Speed wise they appear more in line with Tomahawk missiles which fly very slow as opposed to ICBMs which operate at multiple levels of mach and would at least remove the chance of Wraith darts destroying them with suicide rams.

They're probably close to mach range, but space is big. According to my crude calculation and measuring method ( which maybe woefully inaccurate due to scaling issues) they close a distance of about ~5Km in 21 seconds in the episode No Man's Land. That makes about 857km an hour.

I vaguely recall that fight. Did they actually tell us the warhead yield for the missiles? I can't remember, I thought the only gig sized nukes used in Stargate were the Gatebusters and the Horizon weapon platform. I'm not so sure the 304 anti-ship missiles are gig sized, though I admit I can exactly recall.

That's a good question. I think they're called Mark III or Mark VII and I assumed that and read elsewhere that they have to be 1 gigaton at least since the original Goa'uld Buster used in the Serpent's Lair was 1 gigaton.

Either way, the nuke caused serious damage but did not destroy it outright. Ironically though a Wraith ship is one of the few ships that dont use shields, and uses armour instead.

It's glorified meat as NecronLord put it.

The Orion was destroyed however because theu had to divert shield power to weapons just to fire the drones in the first place. Without it's shields it got hammered and destroyed in a matter of moments. If it had been fully operational, and able to use both shields and weapons, then it would have been a different story. And a shorter one.

I know I was merely pointing out that it was still in operating condition even after being hit.

[Stargate Nerd]

This is what I'm referring to in No Man's Land btw.

The gif is about 2.5mb

http://www.zshare.net/image/51160878bc4fe7c2/