Just read WWZ

[K. A. Pital]

This is amazing. It's like you've never seen a Romero zombie film

I've seen "Land of the Dead". It follows the same premise that zombies can take over the Earth; well, at least it's not as ridiculous as WWZ since it doesn't really detail how the fuck a bunch of zombies took over it; also, Romero's zombies are kind of smart.

Additionally, the situations in both Dawn and Day fit the world-wide pandemia situation you're talking about better than almost any other zombie story in existence, given that anyone who dies will reanimate, regardless of who killed them, zombie or otherwise.

No, I'm talking about a superlethal pandemia which kills off the majority of humans, leaving the zombies with a weakened or almost non-existent humanity to deal, a-la I Am Legend.

Fuck, even Day of the fucking Triffids had humans blinded by a comet to explain the possibility of takeover by something extremely clumsly and unintelligent; similar extraneous circumstanes should exist in every zombie scenario.

[Ford Prefect]

I've seen "Land of the Dead". It follows the same premise that zombies can take over the Earth; well, at least it's not as ridiculous as WWZ since it doesn't really detail how the fuck a bunch of zombies took over it; also, Romero's zombies are kind of smart.

Land of the Dead was retarded, and is so wildly different from Night, Dawn and Day that I have trouble believing that it was actually made by Romero, even if it did feature the same 'space radiation making zombies' stuff. Even Day of the Dead suggested that civillisation still persisted despite there being zillions of zombies meandering around.

EDIT: I should retract that part about Day of the Dead, as thinkign back to the film, I'm pretty sure I'm totally wrong.

[ray245]

Although I have to question, when did the Zombie Genre end up as a science fiction as compared to fantasy?

[Crazedwraith]

Although I have to question, when did the Zombie Genre end up as a science fiction as compared to fantasy?

It pretty much depends on how the Zombies were created I suppose. Zombies created by viral infection or cosmic radiation or infectious space dust or whatever sounds science-fiction-y whereas when one employs necromancy and dark rites to rise you're undead shambling hordes that's clearly in the 'Fantasy' section.

[Vehrec]

I kinda want to know, given a slow shambling zombie that doesn't get attacked by animals and eaten, how long would it last before it just rotted away at the joints and fell apart? Or, what is the zombie half-life, the amount of time it takes for half the zombies to stop being credible threats?

Maybe I should find a coroner to ask this question to.

[SylasGaunt]

Suppose the same amount of time it takes any corpse to rot in given conditions.

WWZ zombies at least don't do that for a while since most microbes and such take one look at a zombie corpse and go 'no fucking way man!'. There are still some that will attack an infected corpse but it results in a massively slowed decay process.


Though I'd like to add that WWZ does not at any point pretend that zombies are a threat to people who keep calm enough for their brain to work except in overwhelming numbers. For example that whole bit with the blind old guy. There was also mention I believe of an Indian officer who kept his men calm and collected and they proceeded to stack them up until they ran out of ammo.

[lance]

Zombies with automatic weapons, and disguises, maybe.
http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=090214&mode=weekly

[Minischoles]

Suppose the same amount of time it takes any corpse to rot in given conditions.

WWZ zombies at least don't do that for a while since most microbes and such take one look at a zombie corpse and go 'no fucking way man!'. There are still some that will attack an infected corpse but it results in a massively slowed decay process.


Though I'd like to add that WWZ does not at any point pretend that zombies are a threat to people who keep calm enough for their brain to work except in overwhelming numbers. For example that whole bit with the blind old guy. There was also mention I believe of an Indian officer who kept his men calm and collected and they proceeded to stack them up until they ran out of ammo.

Yeah, General Raj-Singh who formed an infantry square of his men and they held out as long as their ammo did, with him having to be evacuated by chopper, that was then copied by pretty much every army to deal with the zombies.

[Commander 598]

Shaun of the Dead is basically the most realistic zombie movie...and I can't say I saw much to nitpick in 28 Days Later.

[CaptHawkeye]

Shaun of the Dead is basically the most realistic zombie movie...and I can't say I saw much to nitpick in 28 Days Later.

Shaun of the Dead was an implied mockery of the subject matieral and the people who believe it. Just like Hot Fuzz was a blatent mockery of ZOMG SERIOUS over the top action movies.

Nitram really put the crux of "zombies fail" a while ago when he was arguing with some loser troll over WWZ. It turns out zombie tactics are little more than human wall spam. The problem is, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD found out during, ya know, WORLD WAR 1, that human walls don't work at all. Even if you hurl huge plumes of men at your enemy. Some nerds have countered me with "yeah well zombies are totally suicidal and won't stop regardless of casualties or supply!". Yeah, read about the history of the Japanese Army to see what happens even when you have lots of men in your wall who "don't care about death".

[[R_H]]

I just finished listening to the WWZ audiobook (shorter than the book sadly), what I liked was the way the book was written (interviews). The Battle of Yonkers just provoked a "you've got to be shitting me" response. IMO, the defeat was the only thing that gave the Zs a chance.

[ray245]

Shaun of the Dead is basically the most realistic zombie movie...and I can't say I saw much to nitpick in 28 Days Later.

Shaun of the Dead was an implied mockery of the subject matieral and the people who believe it. Just like Hot Fuzz was a blatent mockery of ZOMG SERIOUS over the top action movies.

Nitram really put the crux of "zombies fail" a while ago when he was arguing with some loser troll over WWZ. It turns out zombie tactics are little more than human wall spam. The problem is, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD found out during, ya know, WORLD WAR 1, that human walls don't work at all. Even if you hurl huge plumes of men at your enemy. Some nerds have countered me with "yeah well zombies are totally suicidal and won't stop regardless of casualties or supply!". Yeah, read about the history of the Japanese Army to see what happens even when you have lots of men in your wall who "don't care about death".

Well, people would simply argue back that we don't understand how zombie works. That zombies don't experience panic and shell shock, hence they would be able to charge at you until their bodies is ripped into pieces.

[CaptHawkeye]

Well, people would simply argue back that we don't understand how zombie works. That zombies don't experience panic and shell shock, hence they would be able to charge at you until their bodies is ripped into pieces.

I'd ask them to try and find me as many cases as possible where signifigant or even minimal numbers of Japanese soldiers experienced debilitating shell shock or panic. Plenty of Japanese units were totally annihilated in battles even at point-blank range. Remember even the Japanese had guns.

See: All of Guadalacanal. See: All of New Zealand.

[Black Admiral]

Well, people would simply argue back that we don't understand how zombie works. That zombies don't experience panic and shell shock, hence they would be able to charge at you until their bodies is ripped into pieces.

That really doesn't matter; quick-firing artillery and automatic weapons are very unforgiving in that respect. You can't simply swamp them with bodies, as the French in 1914 or the Madhists at Omdurman learned to their great cost.

"Shuffler" zombies would have even greater difficulty, not least in lacking any capability whatsoever to suppress such fire.

[Pulp Hero]

Also, another thing that bothered me about the Battle of yonkers is that even non-headshots would put the zombies out of action. Think about a .50 or 20mm round hitting a zombie center of mass. The zombie might still be "alive" and trying to attack people, but physically it would be immobile and not a threat.

[CaptHawkeye]

Listen, some people take video game/movie damage and ballistics at face value. They think zomg no headshot = no kill. That upon impact the only thing a bullet does is make a cute little hole and then a guy magically dies. They don't understand things like shock, conservation of momentum, how the human body even fucking works.

[[R_H]]

Also, another thing that bothered me about the Battle of yonkers is that even non-headshots would put the zombies out of action. Think about a .50 or 20mm round hitting a zombie center of mass. The zombie might still be "alive" and trying to attack people, but physically it would be immobile and not a threat.

Not to mention any other previous damage done to the zombies.

Completely out there, but what about using a bulldozer, or a vehicle equipped with a mine flail (and like on the Crab, with cutters to stop the flail from getting tangled up). Quite likely retarded ideas, but oh well.

Why weren't landmines deployed in the path of the zombies?

[frogcurry]

Or just put some bars around a large truck and drive over them. They'll even walk out towards you in the truck to try and get your brains.

Thats the bit that really bothers me about Yonkers. Not the artillery or heavy weapons, they were the wrong type of equipment for the job due to the relatively high cost of the ammo. But the infantry could just get into Bradleys/ APCs and fight entirely from inside the vehicles in the first place, firing out the rifle slits (I assume american APCs have these). Or equip bomb disposal robots with guns and send them into the zombie midst under remote control... There's no need to go into a hand-to-hand combat situation with zombies in an outdoor environment in daytime, ever.

[Pulp Hero]

Also, another thing that bothered me about the Battle of yonkers is that even non-headshots would put the zombies out of action. Think about a .50 or 20mm round hitting a zombie center of mass. The zombie might still be "alive" and trying to attack people, but physically it would be immobile and not a threat.

Not to mention any other previous damage done to the zombies.

Completely out there, but what about using a bulldozer, or a vehicle equipped with a mine flail (and like on the Crab, with cutters to stop the flail from getting tangled up). Quite likely retarded ideas, but oh well.

Why weren't landmines deployed in the path of the zombies?

An armored bulldozer (or even better an M-60 tank) with flails is a decent idea, though if I were to write a zombie story, the dangers of throwing infected zombie particles into the air would be a concern to limit use.

As for mines, anything command detonated (like claymores) would be perfect. I wouldn't lay a traditional minefield though because afterward soldiers would have to clear the area of mines, which is a dangerous task- add to that infectious zombie guts and the occasional bity head would make it pain in the ass.

Or just put some bars around a large truck and drive over them. They'll even walk out towards you in the truck to try and get your brains.

Thats the bit that really bothers me about Yonkers. Not the artillery or heavy weapons, they were the wrong type of equipment for the job due to the relatively high cost of the ammo. But the infantry could just get into Bradleys/ APCs and fight entirely from inside the vehicles in the first place, firing out the rifle slits (I assume american APCs have these). Or equip bomb disposal robots with guns and send them into the zombie midst under remote control... There's no need to go into a hand-to-hand combat situation with zombies in an outdoor environment in daytime, ever.

On a note about bomb disposal robots- those would be perfect for clearing buildings. Send one in with a mounted shotgun or radio detonated demo charge and have it check most of nooks and crannies before sending in live soldiers.

Actually, now that I think about. Clearing buildings of zombies would be treated a lot like clearing them of bombs- send in the robot, then send in the guy in a bombsuit (with Kevlar gloves) to open up all the doors and stuff a robot can't get to, then send in the regular soldiers.

[Raxmei]

Or just put some bars around a large truck and drive over them. They'll even walk out towards you in the truck to try and get your brains.

Thats the bit that really bothers me about Yonkers. Not the artillery or heavy weapons, they were the wrong type of equipment for the job due to the relatively high cost of the ammo. But the infantry could just get into Bradleys/ APCs and fight entirely from inside the vehicles in the first place, firing out the rifle slits (I assume american APCs have these). Or equip bomb disposal robots with guns and send them into the zombie midst under remote control... There's no need to go into a hand-to-hand combat situation with zombies in an outdoor environment in daytime, ever.

Most American APCs don't have rifle slits, though I saw an MRAP once that had firing ports. It's a bit more elaborate than you need anyway. Some FMTVs (new medium cargo truck, has an annoyingly high truck bed) with a pallet of ammo, a gallon of lube, and a dozen privates with M16s in the back would be good enough. Of course, that the battle was fought incredibly poorly was part of the point the author was trying to make. Anyone trying to call that incident a likely outcome of such a confrontation is badly misinterpreting the text. Some people say that the degree of incompetence shown is implausible, and there is room for argument there. And then there are the technical issues, which Brooks appears to have done little if any research on.

[Mr Bean]

Listen, some people take video game/movie damage and ballistics at face value. They think zomg no headshot = no kill. That upon impact the only thing a bullet does is make a cute little hole and then a guy magically dies. They don't understand things like shock, conservation of momentum, how the human body even fucking works.

Did you even read World War Z? Or listen to it? Max Brooks zombies are magic or rather it's explicitly spelled out how they work in the books and detailed on why limb shots do nothing to stop them.

The feeling I get from half the posts here is a dogpile of people who did not even fucking read the book. But then we've had this exact same damn thread four times now. However it's been six months so all is forgiven.

So let me repeat some of the highlights of previous threads
Solanum is a magic virus(Turns body into self sufficient organize in under 48 hours)
Solanum zombies only "die" due to head shots because the magic virus runs only the bodly functions required for muscle movement
Because as said before, the virus is magic(It had to be to violate as many rules as it does)

Magic Virus Zombies are still deadly when just a head. (Pulp Hero, CaptHawkeye)
At Yonkers(Per the book) the military "lost" due to incompetence and lack of planning and not preparing for the engagement. The Book goes into great detail on everything from poor positioning of infantry, to putting them in full MOPP gear on a godamn hot day to not having enough ammo for sustained operations.

Something that was pointed out even in the book is the fact that Yonkers was a defense held just outside New York city and while WWI was a great show with thousands of people were dieing every square mile. The Zombies were swarming to Yonkers in the millions. While this should have allowed simple defense in depth it is also noted(By the Book) the forces at Yonkers should have easily been able to hold as long as ammo held out. Except for one massive fuckup after another.

And those are in order
1. Not taking advantage of the terrain, instead of putting troops atop buildings they were placed in fighting positions and fa to few infantry were on the front line for the amount of zombies to be engaged.
2.The standing orders of troops being forced to fight in MOPP gear (Which is useless against Zombies) and allowing the Press in right behind the front lines(And News Choppers over-head)
3.Tanks and APC's carrying standard load out heavy on Anti-Tank light on High Explosive and Anti-Infantry. As well as not being crammed to the roof with extra ammo for the MG's. Same thing with artillery which had less than a full days load.
4.Lack of grasp of the shear number of zombies being attracted. (Well over two million zombies "attacking" down a single six lane highway)
5. Moral. In Max Brooks World-Landwarrior is not a giant piece of shit and all of the front-line troops are equipped with it giving the soldiers in those holes a true grasp on just how many damn zombies are head their way. Combine that with full communications and a surprise zombie attack in the rear leads to a massive fuckup panicky full scale retreat.



And the last reason as Nitram put it the last go around "It's the godamn writers fiat". No one ever raises any storm about the fact that World War Z is fought against magic zombies and those same people go on to complain that the military did not behave in a realistic manor.

Max Brooks wanted to write a Zombie apocalypses book, so he wrote one. Some parts make more sense then others but regardless. it's magic zombies VS the World.

[Pablo Sanchez]

And the last reason as Nitram put it the last go around "It's the godamn writers fiat". No one ever raises any storm about the fact that World War Z is fought against magic zombies and those same people go on to complain that the military did not behave in a realistic manor.

In other words, your argument is that suspension of disbelief also covers idiot plots, so WWZ takes place in fictional world where not only are there zombies, also all people in positions of authority are too stupid to do their jobs. This really makes me want to read it now, thanks.

[Junghalli]

WWZ zombies at least don't do that for a while since most microbes and such take one look at a zombie corpse and go 'no fucking way man!'. There are still some that will attack an infected corpse but it results in a massively slowed decay process.

Realistically that would probably leave dessication as the main problem. So how long would it take a corpse to dry out sufficiently that the muscles become useless? I suppose it would depend on the environment. In the desert it might only take a couple of days, in more temperate areas longer.

I suppose the zombies would probably get fluids from their victims, which would let them survive longer. Assuming they don't simply retain an instinct to drink.

[Mr Bean]

Realistically that would probably leave dessication as the main problem. So how long would it take a corpse to dry out sufficiently that the muscles become useless? I suppose it would depend on the environment. In the desert it might only take a couple of days, in more temperate areas longer.

I suppose the zombies would probably get fluids from their victims, which would let them survive longer. Assuming they don't simply retain an instinct to drink.

See aforementioned points the Zombies are Magic. They do decay but it takes years and if frozen solid are ready to go the instant they thaw.

In other words, your argument is that suspension of disbelief also covers idiot plots, so WWZ takes place in fictional world where not only are there zombies, also all people in positions of authority are too stupid to do their jobs. This really makes me want to read it now, thanks.

Pablo don't make me reach into the Mess to bring up real life example after example of military people to godamn stupid to do the job they are assigned let alone go to history to find hundreds of examples of military minds who pissed away victory through boneheaded mistake after boneheaded mistake.

Pablo, at this time, in this age considering the economic crises we are in right now you really want to make your counter-argument that of course people aren't as stupid as the people in the book?

As pointed out during the second WWZ thread Yonkers is a possible scenario. Unlikely but not impossible even given today knowledge and ability.

[CaptHawkeye]

I'm amused Bean thinks anything in that description makes the book sound at all interesting. It's not like I have limited time and am not interested in head slamming my way through is obvious nerd-pandering shit.

Maybe if it was more technical and less wanktastic cautionary tale I might be interested but whoopslolzomgbbq it isn't. Of course, I wouldn't even give a shit about if nerds didn't act like zombies are some kind of revolution in horror and storytelling. WWZ is their bible. Hint: They're a story element about social change. Whoops there goes the genre.

So let me repeat some of the highlights of previous threads
Solanum is a magic virus(Turns body into self sufficient organize in under 48 hours)
Solanum zombies only "die" due to head shots because the magic virus runs only the bodly functions required for muscle movement
Because as said before, the virus is magic(It had to be to violate as many rules as it does)

Yeah thanks. That makes the book sound soooo interesting now. Really.

A long time ago zombie movies were actually fun because it wasn't about shitty social commentary. It really was just about some scared, freaked out dudes marooned in the middle of nowhere surrounded by little more than paticularly durable rioters. Then they ran out of matieral.

I think zombies are actually a good sign of the state of the horror genre in general.