Na'vi and Free Will

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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Samuel wrote:Or they can figure out a way to use the planetary network to store information. As it is the system is inefficient based on trees as the unit. If they could find a way to seperate out the communications part and grow that they could make the planet mind more powerful and more useful to themselves.
Umm, it's a redundant planet-scale network that stores the conciousnesses/memories of the dead. And it's inefficient?

While I'm sure it could be made better, don't you think there's some things they could be best served doing first? Like developing spaceflight?
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Sure, you need a tree for each of the nodes. If you can increase the number of nodes you can make it faster- I'm thinking a parallel for agriculture.
While I'm sure it could be made better, don't you think there's some things they could be best served doing first? Like developing spaceflight?
Except that going from "holds memory of our ancestors" to making it usable for computing is helpful for that as well.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Samuel wrote:Sure, you need a tree for each of the nodes. If you can increase the number of nodes you can make it faster- I'm thinking a parallel for agriculture.
As we've learnt to our peril, natural systems are astoundingly complex. While encouraging more soul trees (and home trees?) would be sensible to provide more interface points, interfereing with it beyond that is undoubtedly beyond their skill for the forseeable future.

Except that going from "holds memory of our ancestors" to making it usable for computing is helpful for that as well.
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Interfacing computers with the brain directly: Who knows. Evidently pre-Avatar era to an extent.

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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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NecronLord wrote:Why? There is no reason whatsoever that science must be accompanied by ecological destruction. The fact that the Na'vi have a preexisting equivalent to the motorcar (giant lizard things they can ride by connecting mind-tentacle, one bonded to every adult) would vastly reduce any ecological impact of technological development. They have no need for roads, and all the fossil fuels that go with.
As we have the horse and other servant animals. There's no reason to believe their mounts will not have the same flaws (tire, be inconvenient to care for, not be strong enough to haul bulk goods, etc etc) that led us to replace ours.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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GuppyShark wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Why? There is no reason whatsoever that science must be accompanied by ecological destruction. The fact that the Na'vi have a preexisting equivalent to the motorcar (giant lizard things they can ride by connecting mind-tentacle, one bonded to every adult) would vastly reduce any ecological impact of technological development. They have no need for roads, and all the fossil fuels that go with.
As we have the horse and other servant animals. There's no reason to believe their mounts will not have the same flaws (tire, be inconvenient to care for, not be strong enough to haul bulk goods, etc etc) that led us to replace ours.
Do you not comprehend how many orders of magnitude superior a banshee is to a horse?

What's more, of those, the first is only dubiously relevant; the vast majority of people rarely need a vehicle (if they do at all) for more than short journeys. It's a couple of months since I travelled more than a handful of miles per day.

Inconvenient to care for, are you kidding? It fucks off and looks after itself until you call for it. A car is actually more inconvenient to care for. A banshee grooms and feeds itself. Your car needs cleaning and maintenance.

And you're assuming it has no advantages; it fucking flies. Flies. Allow me to restate that for the third time. It flies. It can pick you up, go in a more or less straight line where you want, and drop you off. A car is limited (usually) to where there are roads. A banshee needs a suitable landing site at origin and destination.

Bulk haulage of goods is indeed a fine point, and if they were being compared to eighteen wheelers, you'd have a point. As it is, though, they're not. The motorcar is a personal conveyance. When the Na'vi come to require bulk transit, doubtless they will rapidly progress to using the clean eco trains that the RDA supposedly uses that unobtanium to make.

You also missed out the obvious one of comfort, which can of course be countered by pointing out that riding one of them things is doubtless much more fun than driving is, an advantage likely to offset the disadvantage.

Furthermore, we as a species never "replaced our horses." We, unlike the Na'vi, have never been a species that had one horse (or camel) per adult, and with the exception of nomadic cultures like the Mongols, very few individual cultures could sustain such a level of horse ownership, and where they did, it was immensely difficult. However they do it, the Na'vi manage to have sufficient Banshees that you just need to creep up on an unclaimed one and grab it. The motorcar did not replace the horse in most people's lives, it simply came in on its own. At the beginning of the C20th, most people could not afford a horse unless their business (such as rag and bone men, handsome cab drivers, etc.) was dependant on having one. Horses take an immense amount of work to look after, and are therefore expensive. A banshee just fucks off and does its thing until wanted.

Unless their population expands along with their scientific progression, there's no reason for them to run short of these exceedingly useful aerial beasties. To predict whether or not this would happen, we would need to know more about their birth and death rates, and what factors into them. If as has been claimed, Pandora is such an idyll that disease and starvation are unknown, there would not necessarily be significant population expansion {Demographic Transition} due to technological advance.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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I will point out that only WARRIORS had Banshees. We see many warriors among the Na'vi, but we also see a lot of women and children in the HomeTree who probably do not have banshees. On the other hand, we see they have Dire-Horses.

Unlike the Banshee, the Dire-horses are not bonded to only one Na'vi. We see the Dire-Horses wander freely around the HomeTree and feed themselves on the flowers. Thus, like the banshee, the dire-horses are self-caring. While they don't fly, they do have impressive speed and strength, and they move through the Pandoran forest with ease. Thus, no need for roads, and they can carry loads the Banshee cannot.

However... how much inter-tribal trade actually happens amongst the Na'vi?
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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LadyTevar wrote:I will point out that only WARRIORS had Banshees. We see many warriors among the Na'vi, but we also see a lot of women and children in the HomeTree who probably do not have banshees. On the other hand, we see they have Dire-Horses.
I'm pretty sure 'warrior' is a gender neutral title, with females appearing in both aerial and ground groups in the film. Neytiri had a banshee, of course. While there may be a non-warrior class, we don't see it, AFAIK. Children of course, don't get them, but then they don't get their own motorcars either, criminality aside.
However... how much inter-tribal trade actually happens amongst the Na'vi?
As tends to be the rule with any primitive society, probably more than we would imagine off the bat.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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GuppyShark wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Why? There is no reason whatsoever that science must be accompanied by ecological destruction. The fact that the Na'vi have a preexisting equivalent to the motorcar (giant lizard things they can ride by connecting mind-tentacle, one bonded to every adult) would vastly reduce any ecological impact of technological development. They have no need for roads, and all the fossil fuels that go with.
As we have the horse and other servant animals. There's no reason to believe their mounts will not have the same flaws (tire, be inconvenient to care for, not be strong enough to haul bulk goods, etc etc) that led us to replace ours.
Aside from the errors in your reasoning about horse ownership already mentioned - Mozart owned a horse in vienna, which was seen as the equivalent of a Maserati parking in front of your flat! That much for widespread use. People owning horses were rich, even those who transported people or goods were rather rich. Like transport tycoons today.

Let me tell you, I would give one of my balls for a herd of banshees to replace my horses! They just hang around and do what they do until you call them, they are bonded to you and you can steer them telepathic! And they fly! No more mucking the stable or hauling hay, and no pesky training all the time to keep them in usable state.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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LaCroix wrote:Let me tell you, I would give one of my balls for a herd of banshees to replace my horses! They just hang around and do what they do until you call them, they are bonded to you and you can steer them telepathic! And they fly! No more mucking the stable or hauling hay, and no pesky training all the time to keep them in usable state.
Even the dire-horses (which supposedly get more use among plains tribes) can probably be told where to shit (way away from where you are) which is in itself a very useful labour-saving trick.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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I wonder how many Navi die for each successful Banshee rider. Just getting to where Banshees lived required death defying climbs and swinging ropes between flying mountains. Prince of Persia himself would think twice before trying. A lot of unlucky Navi dudes must have plummeted to their deaths over the years. Then there is the fact that the Banshee will kill anyone trying to get close. The lucky ones get decapitated while the unfortunate ones get their limbs severed and slowly bleed to death as they can not climb down. If I were a Navi I would gather some unobtainium so I can buy me a safer transport like a helicopter from the eager humans.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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I wonder how many Navi die for each successful Banshee rider. Just getting to where Banshees lived required death defying climbs and swinging ropes between flying mountains. Prince of Persia himself would think twice before trying. A lot of unlucky Navi dudes must have plummeted to their deaths over the years. Then there is the fact that the Banshee will kill anyone trying to get close. The lucky ones get decapitated while the unfortunate ones get their limbs severed and slowly bleed to death as they can not climb down.
I wondered about this as I watched the movie. It seems like Na'vi warrior/hunter/adulthood (whatever it was supposed to be) initiation should have an extremely high death rate. Even armed with superhuman strength and hand-eye coordination, I would think that going hand-to-hand with an aerial predator would still be quite challenging. Perhaps some candidates get up to the various extremely dangerous points (vine-swinging, hand-to-hand with a dragon) and chicken out. Or maybe the Na'vi just rely on a brutal initiation process to keep the population under control.

Man, we should do this on Earth. "Alright kids, this year you will be climbing Mount McKinley. Once you get to the top, you will arm-wrestle an AC-130 gunship in a primitive battle for supremacy. Those who fail will have to repeat the grade."
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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NecronLord wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:I will point out that only WARRIORS had Banshees. We see many warriors among the Na'vi, but we also see a lot of women and children in the HomeTree who probably do not have banshees. On the other hand, we see they have Dire-Horses.
I'm pretty sure 'warrior' is a gender neutral title, with females appearing in both aerial and ground groups in the film. Neytiri had a banshee, of course. While there may be a non-warrior class, we don't see it, AFAIK. Children of course, don't get them, but then they don't get their own motorcars either, criminality aside.
Did I happen to say that "Warrior" *WAS* gender-based?
Why, I don't believe I did. Now I did state truthfully that we see women and children in the Hometree who do not have Banshees. We do not see them with bows. We do not see them out hunting.

And if the Na'vi are hunter-gatherers, this makes a lot of sense. We see a lot more of the Warriors in the movie, but in any hunter-gatherer society there is a split between the hunter/defenders of the tribe and those that gather other edible foods from the area around their home. Now, we don't see much of the Na'vi 'gatherers' in the movie. The focus is on the warriors, as Jake is a warrior "of the Jarhead clan". If they follow the human hunter-gatherer model, then the gatherers will be the mated females, those with young, and possibly those males/females who could not pass the tests to be warriors for one reason or another.

These gatherers would not have banshees, and thus no flight. As they probably do not range far from HomeTree in their gathering, they would not need flying transport anyway. We don't see if the DireHorses are used for beasts of burden at any point, simply being used as transport and warsteeds by the warriors.

What would be interesting to see is if the Na'vi gathered fruits from the Hometree, or if they have small gardens growing similar to the ones seen at Hellgate.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Kingmaker wrote:
I wonder how many Navi die for each successful Banshee rider. Just getting to where Banshees lived required death defying climbs and swinging ropes between flying mountains. Prince of Persia himself would think twice before trying. A lot of unlucky Navi dudes must have plummeted to their deaths over the years. Then there is the fact that the Banshee will kill anyone trying to get close. The lucky ones get decapitated while the unfortunate ones get their limbs severed and slowly bleed to death as they can not climb down.
I wondered about this as I watched the movie. It seems like Na'vi warrior/hunter/adulthood (whatever it was supposed to be) initiation should have an extremely high death rate. Even armed with superhuman strength and hand-eye coordination, I would think that going hand-to-hand with an aerial predator would still be quite challenging. Perhaps some candidates get up to the various extremely dangerous points (vine-swinging, hand-to-hand with a dragon) and chicken out. Or maybe the Na'vi just rely on a brutal initiation process to keep the population under control.

Man, we should do this on Earth. "Alright kids, this year you will be climbing Mount McKinley. Once you get to the top, you will arm-wrestle an AC-130 gunship in a primitive battle for supremacy. Those who fail will have to repeat the grade."
While we don't know anything about their mortality rates, it should be noted that the example in the film was clearly not typical. I would not think there is a particularly high mortality rate for it, though it would seem likely that there is some.
LadyTevar wrote:Did I happen to say that "Warrior" *WAS* gender-based?
Why, I don't believe I did. Now I did state truthfully that we see women and children in the Hometree who do not have Banshees. We do not see them with bows. We do not see them out hunting.

And if the Na'vi are hunter-gatherers, this makes a lot of sense. We see a lot more of the Warriors in the movie, but in any hunter-gatherer society there is a split between the hunter/defenders of the tribe and those that gather other edible foods from the area around their home. Now, we don't see much of the Na'vi 'gatherers' in the movie. The focus is on the warriors, as Jake is a warrior "of the Jarhead clan". If they follow the human hunter-gatherer model, then the gatherers will be the mated females, those with young, and possibly those males/females who could not pass the tests to be warriors for one reason or another.

These gatherers would not have banshees, and thus no flight. As they probably do not range far from HomeTree in their gathering, they would not need flying transport anyway. We don't see if the DireHorses are used for beasts of burden at any point, simply being used as transport and warsteeds by the warriors.

What would be interesting to see is if the Na'vi gathered fruits from the Hometree, or if they have small gardens growing similar to the ones seen at Hellgate.
The idea that there's a particular group who aren't considered warriors would be projection of human culture upon them. As you say, real hunter gatherers have people gathering at all times, but this does not mean that they must have any specific class whose role is solely to gather, and another whose role is to hunt, while that is sometimes the case, it is not always so. Notably the Aeta people of the Phillipines. Division of labour is common (usually as man-hunts woman-gathers) but that's not necesserily this case. Of course, with air-power, they're likely also far more efficient hunters than real hunter gatherers, though they also have notably tougher prey and large predators they can't seem to get rid of (likely account for far more deaths than bonding with banshees, those Great Leomonopytrxes really need to be wiped out or domesticated) may hamper that.

While Na'vi females are likely more sedentry during and after childbirth, there's no reason to think that there's any class of adults other than 'warriors' (and perhaps 'washouts'), in the film at least. In conclusion, I can't see any reason why the women you point out wouldn't have Banshees, unless perhaps the Banshee lifespan is shorter than the Na'vi's (which I'd think quite likely, they probably have a faster metabolism) which may leave older Na'vi without them.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Here's a question. What happens if you plug a banshee into a dire-horse? Suggestions?
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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NecronLord wrote: While we don't know anything about their mortality rates, it should be noted that the example in the film was clearly not typical. I would not think there is a particularly high mortality rate for it, though it would seem likely that there is some.

*snip*

In conclusion, I can't see any reason why the women you point out wouldn't have Banshees, unless perhaps the Banshee lifespan is shorter than the Na'vi's (which I'd think quite likely, they probably have a faster metabolism) which may leave older Na'vi without them.
In fact, the Banshees aren't that lethal, since only few of them try to kill you. Most just fly away. That seems to be some selection criteria, only those that try to kill you are seen suitable.

Also, it only says that a Banshee will only join with one Na'vi in its life, that doesn't imply you can't get a new one once you old one dies.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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NecronLord wrote:Here's a question. What happens if you plug a banshee into a dire-horse? Suggestions?
It's a battle of wills. since I don't think the Dire-horse is very strong-willed, the banshee would probably command it to stand still and then pounce. But I don't think the connection would last long, since it is easily broken by slight pulling, as seen in the film.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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NecronLord wrote:Here's a question. What happens if you plug a banshee into a dire-horse? Suggestions?
Probably nothing. Only the Navi had the ability to use hair USB ports to take control. While other animals have them they do not use it to take control of others. Which is strange since it would be a terrific tool for a parasite taking a host or predator disabling it's prey. Can you imagine a gould like creature for instance ? Pandoras eco system would be a wet dream for creatures like them. The fact that specialized parasites and predators have not arisen to exploit the security loopholes in Pandoras biological networking is a mystery.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Sarevok wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Here's a question. What happens if you plug a banshee into a dire-horse? Suggestions?
Probably nothing. Only the Navi had the ability to use hair USB ports to take control. While other animals have them they do not use it to take control of others. Which is strange since it would be a terrific tool for a parasite taking a host or predator disabling it's prey. Can you imagine a gould like creature for instance ? Pandoras eco system would be a wet dream for creatures like them. The fact that specialized parasites and predators have not arisen to exploit the security loopholes in Pandoras biological networking is a mystery.
Perhaps the network-mind regards outright parasitism using the ports as a threat and destroys anything that tries. The Na'vi get away with it because they are trying for a cooperative relationship.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Or maybe such parasites (or symbiotes - think a smarter creature that hitches a ride on a dumber one and takes control of it) exist but we just didn't see them in the film. It's not like the movie was a comprehensive documentary on the planet's lifeforms; we only saw a small part of the planet and we only saw the critters that were in some way plot-relevant or that happened to wander through the frame.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Junghalli wrote:Or maybe such parasites (or symbiotes - think a smarter creature that hitches a ride on a dumber one and takes control of it) exist but we just didn't see them in the film. It's not like the movie was a comprehensive documentary on the planet's lifeforms; we only saw a small part of the planet and we only saw the critters that were in some way plot-relevant or that happened to wander through the frame.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

Post by Rye »

The Na'vi could be descended from neural parasites, and have a "dominance" gene as a result.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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Rye wrote:The Na'vi could be descended from neural parasites, and have a "dominance" gene as a result.
That's an interesting idea. It is interesting how they seem able to "break" the animal instantly just by jamming in the neural interface.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

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What if Eywa is the parasite?

I don't see any glowing seeds attached to the animals when they do their death-defying charge (tm) to save the planet. So somehow Eywa has a wireless interface to them. Maybe Eywa IS the tentacly stuff groping at you from the end of their tentacles? And as the only sentient species, the Na'vi are the only one able to take command over that link. It is never mentioned that the mount doesn't give feedback of any kind. Actually, they have to learn how to use the interface, and Neytiri even say that Jake has to ride the banshee quickly to "seal the bond", so it has something to do with mental dominance.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Shroom Man 777
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Another curious thing is that when they were "praying" to Eywa to save Grace and to transfer Jake Sully to his Avatar body in the end, you see the hordes of Na'vi gathered all sitting and undulating while the Soul Tree's surroundings glow psychadelically. But you ALSO see them, ALL of them, plugging their neural interfaces to the strange glowing floor of the Soul Tree as they chant and beg Eywa to save Grace.

So, they're not totally submissive to the "will" of Eywa if they're able to commune with it and try to curry favors from it by gathering themselves together and sticking all their neural interfaces at once in a massive prayer rally to "boost the signal" of their communicated messages.
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Re: Na'vi and Free Will

Post by Sarevok »

Maybe the Navi are actually avatars of Ewya ?
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