Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip

[Eviscerator]

So? The WOB unleashed naval bombardment STRAIGHT at Harlech. Ground zero, and the tower were still standing, just collapsed. The HPG station stationed just outside was still intact and transmitting.
And? For Outreach, the WOB at that point in time had aerospace superiority and unleashed a direct orbital attack on Harlech. The damage done to the city overall was similar to the damage done at nagasaki, with further environmental damage inflicted by the series of dirty nukes used on Remulus..
Of course, I could also point to the Oriente attack where Marik unleashed a sustained barrage of PPC and missiles at the HPG station, hospice and nearby community.

And? I was referring to the fact that ground zero of a warship bombardment was STILL standing like any other town. Its clearly not a megaton level event by the fact that the buildings, the direct targets were still intact.

Huntress itself would had been better, along with the Battle of Hesperus. We seen vapourisation of streams and etc, but the events were a sustained salvo from multiple weapons and the effects overall still do not correlate to the game mechanics firepower conversion. Hell, Huntress is possibly the highest end of orbital firepower ).

I submit to you, sir, that strength of ANY bombardment is subject to the orders given to the gun crews versus resupply/refit concerns. Today it would be practically and realistically impossible to duplicate WW1 ground artillery barrages or WW2 naval barrages. Neither you, nor i, nor anyone else is privy to the specific targets set forth by the Captain to his Gunnery Master. I take it from your arguments that hence HPGs are superhardened and Strong Enough To Withstand Any Bombardment?

Back to my previous argument that even a Vincent M42 can do the job. Given a YardShip, periodic resupply of ammunition, there is no reason why even it's NAC/10s can perfrom the equilvent of a BDZ. Its just whether you want to expend the time and resources to do so.

I further submit to you that even if a NL-55 has only a kt equilavent of 20kt by the time it hits the ground, the beauty of naval bombardment is that you can carry on as long as the ship can remain on station, the lasers remain functional, and the power supply remains functional. Why is Huntress taken as a highest end of orbital firepower scale when the only bombardments in that campaign were tactical in nature and never strategic?

Where's my copy of the Dying Time when you need it, i recall the Rebel Avalon cruiser firing against the spaceport specifically to stop some pesky structure called an HPG transmitting Additionally you seem to have mixed up the Huntress and battle of Hesperus in the civil war.

Huntress is possibly the highest end of orbital firepower since an indirect strike at the Lyran Guards spilled over and damaged the spaceport severely, I must have missed the part where the CSJ Liberator, sovetskill soyuz, black lion, vincent corvettes or reagan SDS fired on the 11th Lyran Guards. Were they at Hesperus firing on the 15th and 36th Lyran Guards and fighting for Free Skye? To spell it out for you, Fedcom Civil War, page 147 "To his horror, the Free Skye captain of the WarShip exceeded his mandate, not only flattening the Comstar compound, "

Taking into account both your errors in missing the existence of a complete Vessel entirely when it was listed in more than 2 sourcebooks several times (not just a footnote) and now the mixing up of two completely different campaigns and attendant units, one must question your knowledge of the nitty-gritty. next you'll be telling me the Helm Data Core never existed.

[Eviscerator]

Huntress itself would had been better, along with the Battle of Hesperus. Hell, Huntress is possibly the highest end of orbital firepower since an indirect strike at the Lyran Guards spilled over and damaged the spaceport severely, when the commander was expected to have used as limited firepower as possible due to the Ares convention.(We ignore the parts where he WASN"T supposed to have targeted the spaceport and assumed this was collateral damage).

ilKhan lincoln osis DID consider ordering the Streaking Mist to scour the stravag IS troops from Huntress but he did not and he specifically sent it away. Your statement here alleges that TF Bulldog must have commited one of the largest blue-on-blue incidents possible, unleashing NGFS on TF Serpent. At no time during TF Serpent's assault was any Clan naval fire reported. (One cannot say the same for post-Serpent however )

I question how can one mix up two completely different campaigns, worlds, forces, assets and timelines so horribly and erroneously. One cannot even use WOB disinformation as any excuse as both campaigns were quite "public". Its almost as bad as saying the Germans attacked singapore and gave it some Germanic name

[PainRack]

I submit to you, sir, that strength of ANY bombardment is subject to the orders given to the gun crews versus resupply/refit concerns. Today it would be practically and realistically impossible to duplicate WW1 ground artillery barrages or WW2 naval barrages. Neither you, nor i, nor anyone else is privy to the specific targets set forth by the Captain to his Gunnery Master. I take it from your arguments that hence HPGs are superhardened and Strong Enough To Withstand Any Bombardment?

If you had actually noted the trends of my argument, my objections to it was based ON the fact that the WOB attack on Outreach, used as a proponent of lethal warship firepower is NOT that.

It falls right into the standard "range" of warship firepower. Exactly WHAT are you attempting to establish for warship firepower? Start giving numbers damn it. Are you using the KE conversion for NAC? Or WHAT?

Back to my previous argument that even a Vincent M42 can do the job. Given a YardShip, periodic resupply of ammunition, there is no reason why even it's NAC/10s can perfrom the equilvent of a BDZ. Its just whether you want to expend the time and resources to do so.

So? I never contested that an Inner Sphere warship can't do an ELE. Any science fiction space navy has the ability to do so, just by towing asteroids if nothing else works.

The contention is the FIREPOWER of the warship. Stop mucking around and address the numbers issue.

I further submit to you that even if a NL-55 has only a kt equilavent of 20kt by the time it hits the ground, the beauty of naval bombardment is that you can carry on as long as the ship can remain on station, the lasers remain functional, and the power supply remains functional. Why is Huntress taken as a highest end of orbital firepower scale when the only bombardments in that campaign were tactical in nature and never strategic?

A typo on my part. Huntress wasn't the highest end. Hesperus was based on the overflow of collateral damage.

Where's my copy of the Dying Time when you need it, i recall the Rebel Avalon cruiser firing against the spaceport specifically to stop some pesky structure called an HPG transmitting Additionally you seem to have mixed up the Huntress and battle of Hesperus in the civil war.

The Rebel cruiser was targeting the HPG station. However, collateral damage hit the spaceport and the Lyran Guards. As I said, that's probably the highest end of warship orbital bombardment firepower numbers we seen... ignoring the fact that the novel ground commander claims that the warship captain exceeded his orders and directed a direct strike against the Lyran Guards.
If we use the second, then Hesperus drops to number two with Huntress being number one.

To spell it out for you, Fedcom Civil War, page 147 "To his horror, the Free Skye captain of the WarShip exceeded his mandate, not only flattening the Comstar compound, "

And to spell it out for you, I made it CLEAR that the original assumption was that the damage was COLLATERAL, as opposed to the captain engaging the Lyran Guards on purpose.

Taking into account both your errors in missing the existence of a complete Vessel entirely when it was listed in more than 2 sourcebooks several times (not just a footnote) and now the mixing up of two completely different campaigns and attendant units, one must question your knowledge of the nitty-gritty. next you'll be telling me the Helm Data Core never existed.

Right. So I'm SURE you will be able to actually provide numbers regarding the nuke calcs/NAC ke attacks and then explain WHY the damage was not the same as that seen in the Oriente, Harlech and other contemporary bombardment.

Again, the context is based on warship FIREPOWER.

[PainRack]

And for quotes

High above the battlefield, the captured Whirlwind Class destroyer Fire Fang rolled along her axis, bringing her port side batteries to bear on the coordinates relayed up to her through the naval-fire liaison officer attached to Ariana Winston's command staff. When the ship's weapons officer reported that her surviving naval Gauss and PPC batteries were locked onto the target, the captain gave the command to fire.

In the vacuum of space, there was little to see. A bright spark lit the Gauss cannon's muzzle for only a fraction of a second. Then a brighter, but briefer flare belched from the heavy naval PPC battery. All in all, a rather disappointing show had anyone been outside the Fire Fang to watch it.
On the battlefield northeast of Bagera, the effects were a little more dramatic. The Gauss slug, accelerated to incredible velocities, slammed into the red-brown mud with the force of a hundred conventional artillery shells. Less than a second later the PPC discharge savaged the Jaguars' position, flashing the muddy ground into dirty steam.
Colonel Timothy Price, Marshal Bryan's second in command, watched in horrified fascination as the energy released by the blast shattered the Clan 'Mechs unfortunate enough to be near the naval fire's impact point. Though the fire mission had fallen over one hundred meters to the west of Price's designated target, the effect on the Jaguars was nothing less than appalling. Nine of the lighter enemy 'Mechs just ceased to exist, blown to pieces by the unbe¬lievable energies delivered by the Fire Fang's weapons. Any Elemental unlucky enough to be caught in the primary blast area was vaporized. Most of the surviving Clan forces were so badly dam¬aged as to be useless as fighting machines, or even as spare parts.

Huntress

On the morning of March 22 the foggy air around the station was abruptly filled with a seemingly endless barrage of missiles and PPC fire. The attackers gave no warning and hit with such ferocity that more than 132 civilians in the surrounding buildings also died. No ComStar personnel survived the attack that left the HPG facility a pile of scorched rubble and cinders.

Oriente

Apparently sensing imminent defeat, the Blakist Fleet commander ordered an orbital bombardment in and around Harlech after nearly a week of fighting. Simultaneously, the Blakist sterilized the entire Remus continent using stragetic nuclear weapons.

As I write this, Harlech burns. The majestic spires of Wolf Hall, once strong and proud on the skyline, are blackened and broken. Now they arenothing but a grave marker for the fallen Dragoons. Choked with oil and debris, Lake Kearney is a black pit that devours light and reflects nothing. The Harlech Links(whhere I have spent so many pleasant hours over the years) is a blasted heath gouged with BattleMech footprints.
In the streets, once filled with cosmopolitan bustle, only the dead now linger. The sky is black with smoke from a thousand fires. They rage unchecked, for tto venture out invites attack from the white BattleMechs and packs of battle armor that stalk the streets firing at any movement. The wounded fill the hospitals, but are not safe even there from infantry searching for mercenaries or their families.
During the night(or what the chronometers tell me was night), the fighting came a lot closer to the HPG. I only have a Level II of infantry to defend the transmitter. I hope we can hang on. I hope the remainding Dragoons can defeat those who were once my brothers.
I hope Precentor Martial Steiner-Davion can save us all from these monsters.
I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep transmitting...

Harlech is supposed to show proof of firepower GREATER Than kiloton? I don't think so.

[Eviscerator]

Again, the context is based on warship FIREPOWER.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/firepower
–noun 1. the capability of a military force, unit, or weapons system as measured by the amount of gunfire, number of missiles, etc., deliverable to a target.

Firepower is not some insurgent unit mucking about shooting willy-nilly, firepower is precise deliverance of ordnance on target, and sustainable and accurate delivery.

I'll continue this thread later when i get back from a dinner .

[Eviscerator]

I put it to you that you are thinking of firepower in the classic civilian conception that firepower is the size of projectile being delivered.
The military view of firepower is how much ordnance is capable of being delivered to the target.

Thusly, the firepower of a nuclear warhead is eminently measurable in KT/MT figures but the firepower of a WarShip is potentially much higher as it can conduct fire missions as long as viable or desired.

Your presumptions thus that harlech, huntress, or any other of the examples set forth so far as examples that BT WarShips cannot deliver or cause megaton levels of destruction are then erroneous.As ive tried to tell you, armor always loses the battle against warhead and if we are to presume from your statements that a WarShip can only reduce a city/structure to rubble is eminently unfounded.

Right. So I'm SURE you will be able to actually provide numbers regarding the nuke calcs/NAC ke attacks and then explain WHY the damage was not the same as that seen in the Oriente, Harlech and other contemporary bombardment. I can answer this quite easily. As ive tried to say so many times, the specific orders to the gun crews are NOT known. Furthermore, there is no data on the strength of either the Harlech, Hesperus, or Oriente HPG installations. are they basic installations? hardened? super-hardened?

There is no doubt that if the WOB was of a mind to, they could have certainly reduced Harlech to such a state that no rock is left standing on one another. The question is , is it militarily feasible to do so, or is it acceptable to reduce key installations to rubble which for the foreseeable future no one will be rebuilding or getting any real use out of? Simply to illustrate, battlemechs on their own can do the stated mission of "no one rock left on top of another", as the Jade Falcon Desant in the Dark Age era shows. Cant remember her name now. hazen something?

[Eviscerator]

A real-world analogy:

The 23rd battalion, singapore artillery has 18 155mm artillery pieces. How much firepower can they put out in an half hour?

This question by itself seems simple but one must take into account
1) crew training
2) are the pieces FH-88, 2000, Primus SPH or US Paladin SPH? (hypothetical)
3) what are the rounds being used throughout the mission? are the rounds high explosive, improved conventional munition, FASCAM, AP, or other such munitions?
4) is there accurate foward observation, Forward Air Controller, UAV drone available to correct the fall of munition?
5) is the intended target pre-registered?

Another one:

How much firepower can an F-4 phantom II deliver over the course of a day?
Presume every mission flown has the same ordnance loadout, same target, and the plane always survives.

Again, one must needs account for
1) pilot availability to account for pilot fatigue
2) ground crew's ability to turn-around the plane.
3)munitions stock availability

Hence, in this context, an F-4 being used by the Iranian Air Force on a base with inexperienced ground crew, inadequate facilities (both technical and logistical) , only a single pilot available who must be withdrawn when over-fatigued, delivers much less firepower than a USAF F-4 flying out of Da Nang AFB.

[PainRack]

I put it to you that you are thinking of firepower in the classic civilian conception that firepower is the size of projectile being delivered.
The military view of firepower is how much ordnance is capable of being delivered to the target.

No. I'm thinking in terms of firepower of the McKenna warship vs the Basestar, so we know which warship has greater firepower. You know, the OP and the debate?
To generate a battle between the two, you need some numbers and range of capabilities so that we can actually compare the two.
Your entire post is just nonsense.

Your presumptions thus that harlech, huntress, or any other of the examples set forth so far as examples that BT WarShips cannot deliver or cause megaton levels of destruction are then erroneous.As ive tried to tell you, armor always loses the battle against warhead and if we are to presume from your statements that a WarShip can only reduce a city/structure to rubble is eminently unfounded.

Then SHOW that the warship weapons are megaton in level. Its as simple as THAT.

As ive tried to say so many times, the specific orders to the gun crews are NOT known. Furthermore, there is no data on the strength of either the Harlech, Hesperus, or Oriente HPG installations. are they basic installations? hardened? super-hardened?

Are you fucking serious? The Harlech towers were still partially STANDING. At GROUND ZERO. There's simply no evidence from ground bombardment that Btech weapons firepower are megaton in level.

The numbers climb upwards since Gauss bays and NAC ke damage rise expotentially. However, AT2 game mechanics is severely limited by the capital/standard conversion. That's my real contention with players using the estimates derived from the game mechanics.

[Eviscerator]

I put it to you that you are thinking of firepower in the classic civilian conception that firepower is the size of projectile being delivered.
The military view of firepower is how much ordnance is capable of being delivered to the target.

No. I'm thinking in terms of firepower of the McKenna warship vs the Basestar, so we know which warship has greater firepower. You know, the OP and the debate?
To generate a battle between the two, you need some numbers and range of capabilities so that we can actually compare the two.
Your entire post is just nonsense.

.

It was you in the beginning who so candidly dismissed the importance of knowing WHO and WHAT is on the Mckenna. A singaporean AH-64D has markedly different capabilities compared USAF or an ROC AH-64D because of completely different equipment and ordnance availability. Like the unavailability of Stinger AAMs for example, different avionics and all tat. Thusly, if Mr Q had transported the Wolverine's Mckenna it isn't even a battle, its an execution. Get it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firepower
Fire power is a military capability to direct force at an enemy.
Firepower is not how much boom your weapon makes once.

What im trying to put across to you that the strength of a bombardment is eminently EQUILAVENT to the amount of weapons USED in the bombardment!!! The whole idea is that a nuke is a one time deal but with an unit like a warship u can order the same bombardment again until THE JOB IS DONE to the commander's satisfaction! Thus your initial assertion that I would like to point out that a warship firepower isn't particularly notable is complete utter hogwash in both the dictionary and the military idea of the word.

If we follow your presumption that artillery's firepower is measurable by taking into account One time events, it seems ok to say 155mm artillery can only kill two people (ref:'97 Australia LFE accident) rather than taking into account the battle of Ia Drang or the battle of Sevastopol where 600 and 800mm artillery was employed.

The chinese have a proverb and a story and respectively they refer to how determination always suceeds. The first story is that a man with his endless descendants working ceaselessly will eventually be able to remove an mountain. The proverb is "even tempered steel can be ground into a needle." Hence, even if WarShip Naval Weapons are individually only weak enough to destroy an Loki, if they wanted to and could be bothered to, no surface structure is proof against them.

Heck the same principle applies in normal everyday life. The drill or welding torch does the job slowly but surely.

[Batman]

Really. Here's a 9 mm USP and an infinite amount of bullets. Get back to me when you've managed to penetrate an Iowa's armour belt with it.

[Beowulf]

Here we can see the Raider starting it's attack run. It's close enough to be seen by the naked eye by observers which is normal in BSGverse. Generally Vipers and Raiders close within less than a hundred meters of a ground target before they attack.

100m of a ground target is retardedly close. That's closer than real life gun range for a fighter. Against an aerial target, they end up going through the fireball (unlike in the movies, that's a bad thing, because there's still significant chunks of stuff in there, that can kill you). Against a ground target, you crash into the ground. That's not enough distance to pull up. So, prove that it's <100m from fighter to target when they fire.

A human gets hit by the Raiders weapons. He does not burst into a gory mess one would expect from an aircraft cannon much less a spacecraft weapon.

http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack03.jpg

Infact he seems rather intact and fine after dying.

http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack04.jpg

It's possible that the fuses on the cannon rounds are not designed to explode unless they hit something significantly more resistant than a person. After all, a 20mm hole in most living things will kill them fairly quickly, even without an explosion at the end.

[PainRack]

It was you in the beginning who so candidly dismissed the importance of knowing WHO and WHAT is on the Mckenna. A singaporean AH-64D has markedly different capabilities compared USAF or an ROC AH-64D because of completely different equipment and ordnance availability. Like the unavailability of Stinger AAMs for example, different avionics and all tat. Thusly, if Mr Q had transported the Wolverine's Mckenna it isn't even a battle, its an execution. Get it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firepower
Fire power is a military capability to direct force at an enemy.
Firepower is not how much boom your weapon makes once.

What im trying to put across to you that the strength of a bombardment is eminently EQUILAVENT to the amount of weapons USED in the bombardment!!!

And you seem to be assuming that in every scenario, we don't know the weapons used. I'm sorry, but we DO. The Firefang fired its naval gauss and PPC battery. Turtle Bay? NAC and PPC. Oriente? PPC and missile batteries of an unknown number.

Escalating the amount of weapons used actually DECREASE the firepower of said weapons batteries.

The whole idea is that a nuke is a one time deal but with an unit like a warship u can order the same bombardment again until THE JOB IS DONE to the commander's satisfaction! Thus your initial assertion that I would like to point out that a warship firepower isn't particularly notable is complete utter hogwash in both the dictionary and the military idea of the word.

Except the context is entirely in the sense of its firepower vis a vis the Basestar. Its as simple as that.
Note that I'm actually utterly ignoring the ground nuke rules, which mark a 0.5 kiloton nuke as being more POWERFUL than a Light Naval PPC strike.
The NAC and Gauss batteries are more powerful than said nuke, but the Santa Ana is still more powerful than said weapons.

For the AT and Battlespace, my operating policy is to actually ignore any rules derived estimates other than explicit fluff such as fighter launch/recovery. Its different from my policy regarding Battletech in which anything apart from dice rolls(well, and terrain) are considered game fluff, but this is because the damage rules for AT/BS is even more unworkable than BT. And as any Btech analysis here can tell you, that's a VERY impressive feat.

[Eviscerator]

[quote="PainRack"][

And you seem to be assuming that in every scenario, we don't know the weapons used. I'm sorry, but we DO. The Firefang fired its naval gauss and PPC battery. Turtle Bay? NAC and PPC. Oriente? PPC and missile batteries of an unknown number.Escalating the amount of weapons used actually DECREASE the firepower of said weapons batteries. Alrighty then, how long was the Essex on station? How long did it fire? You can't answer that can you now

Right, so somehow escalating the amount of batteries being used decreases the overall firepower. Someone needs to tell that to the designers of the Leviathan. Or the designers of the Kraken.

You know what, you are forgetting the one salient portion of my whole idea. bombardment strength = x amount of weapons multiplied by time of bombardment = final number. Huntress was tactical in nature only, and the Turtle bay incident was one where the CSJ Sabre Cat had ALL THE TIME in the world to do as it pleased. I seem to recall that Star Destroyers on their own can glass a planet but they need time to do so.

Nukes are one time deals, and if you are suggesting that continued sustained fire does not produce the same effect, the entire Covenant fleet proves that theory all hollow.

I further reiterate the idea that IT WAS NOT REQUIRED to reduced the state of any of those installations to a complete stage of "no rock left on top another" when it was enough to make them unrestorable. Sure there's rubble, and there's rubble. How long would it have taken to reconstruct?

And to the feller who made a remark about "9mm USP and Iowa", i can answer that quite sufficintly. The Iowa's armor belt does not magically regenerate so yeah give or take an unlimited ammo, and people to take up the slack, the Iowa is going down.

[Eviscerator]

In the sci-fi world, most every warship is an Aircraft Carrier analog. I put it to you that the type of aircraft on the carrier is at the very least as important as the onboard weaponry if not more so. A cold-war era Kiev carrier's Forgers would be next to useless compared to the MIG-29Ks slated for the Gorshkov. Hence my original post asking the details of fighter and DropShip complement as the complements are faction and timeline specific. Heck, its the same for almost every other Universe. Booster's Errant Venture MK-II ISD has far less firepower than an ISD in service to a regular military organization. How about that?

Somehow along the way it got severely derailed into this big mess.

[PainRack]

And you seem to be assuming that in every scenario, we don't know the weapons used. I'm sorry, but we DO. The Firefang fired its naval gauss and PPC battery. Turtle Bay? NAC and PPC. Oriente? PPC and missile batteries of an unknown number.Escalating the amount of weapons used actually DECREASE the firepower of said weapons batteries. Alrighty then, how long was the Essex on station? How long did it fire? You can't answer that can you now

Geez. I quoted the full passage to you. It fired......... ONCE. From "surviving naval and PPC batteries". We assume it to be one for the sake of an upper limit.

Right, so somehow escalating the amount of batteries being used decreases the overall firepower. Someone needs to tell that to the designers of the Leviathan. Or the designers of the Kraken.

You do know we're talking about the firepower of the individual weapons, right? Are we speaking some form of different language now? This is a science fiction debate forum. To debate the capabilities, we need to establish some form of NUMBERS to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons.

Suggesting that the SJ fired repeated salvo for an entire day to wipe out Turtle Bay DECREASES the firepower of individual weapons batteries. Is there some form of logical or communication disconnect here?

You know what, you are forgetting the one salient portion of my whole idea. bombardment strength = x amount of weapons multiplied by time of bombardment = final number. Huntress was tactical in nature only, and the Turtle bay incident was one where the CSJ Sabre Cat had ALL THE TIME in the world to do as it pleased. I seem to recall that Star Destroyers on their own can glass a planet but they need time to do so.

And the ISD individual turbolaser, much less the batteries are GT in nature assuming parity with the Accalamator turbolasers. Even if we were to use direct canon observations, its still megaton based on the asteroid vapourisation. That's the huge difference in firepower there and then.

Have you utterly ignored the fact that no one is disputing that the IS can conduct an ELE? Your argument is similar to "oh, 1 thousand B-29 bombers can destroy a city using conventional bombs. 1 bomber can destroy a city using a nuclear bomb. The firepower of conventional bombs are just as effective as the nuclear bomb."

Nukes are one time deals, and if you are suggesting that continued sustained fire does not produce the same effect, the entire Covenant fleet proves that theory all hollow.

Huh? NO ONE ARGUED THAT. I argued that based on the OBSERVED incidents of Warship bombardment, the weapons of the Warships are kiloton range only. This is a direct contrast to the estimates of the ke weapons damage estimate as well as the nuke/warship conversion Jihad introduced.

And to the feller who made a remark about "9mm USP and Iowa", i can answer that quite sufficintly. The Iowa's armor belt does not magically regenerate so yeah give or take an unlimited ammo, and people to take up the slack, the Iowa is going down.

No it doesn't. You "can" essentially defeat the armour belt...... but only through metal fatigue. Considering that said warship undergo considerable more stress through an ocean transit, the belt will more likely than not rust away than be penetrated by your 9mm pistol.

Here's something for you to note. Iowa is NOT BTECH. Armour isn't purely ablative in real life.

In the sci-fi world, most every warship is an Aircraft Carrier analog. I put it to you that the type of aircraft on the carrier is at the very least as important as the onboard weaponry if not more so. A cold-war era Kiev carrier's Forgers would be next to useless compared to the MIG-29Ks slated for the Gorshkov. Hence my original post asking the details of fighter and DropShip complement as the complements are faction and timeline specific. Heck, its the same for almost every other Universe. Booster's Errant Venture MK-II ISD has far less firepower than an ISD in service to a regular military organization. How about that?

[/quote]
lol.In this scenario, what you need to know is the fighters "rough" capabilities against the Raptors and Basestar PD, then go on to argue based on known firepower, its effectiveness against the Basestar armour.

You haven't even ESTABLISHED the basic numbers, and you wish to debate how "different fighter types" will have an impact? Battletech aerospace designs aren't THAT dramatically different from each other.

The dropships have already been established for you to be overlords. Even if we were to nitpick on timeline, the Mckenna basic weaponery and functions aren't going to change. The LCS Invincible did not gain a *10 jump in firepower just because the WOB got their paws on her.

[Eviscerator]

You haven't even ESTABLISHED the basic numbers, and you wish to debate how "different fighter types" will have an impact? Battletech aerospace designs aren't THAT dramatically different from each other.

The dropships have already been established for you to be overlords. Even if we were to nitpick on timeline, the Mckenna basic weaponery and functions aren't going to change. The LCS Invincible did not gain a *10 jump in firepower just because the WOB got their paws on her.

It's around here that your basically running your mouth off and not listening to it. So an SL tech fighter can be compared to IS Omnifighters, what with the additional possible weapons like heavy ppcs, VSLs, MRMs and the rest? The Invincible that was woken up for a last hurrah, crewed with old fogeys and barely making the jump to hesperus similiar to the WOB's "extensive and expensive refit" which at the least included an lithium fusion batt?

Are u in anyway insinuating that an SLDF Mckenna would have the fighter and dropship complements of an Clan Mckenna and other ancillary equipment which at the least would be harjel damage control facilities and possibly better onboard computers? Oh , wait, an Overlord. What KIND of Overlord? There are vast difference in Overlords ranging from 3025-tech, SL tech, Clan tech, and the A3 version with capital missile launchers which are NOT present on other Overlords.

Simply to illustrate, F-16s in RSAF service have vastly different capabilities compared to original F-16As. Similiarly, an JASDF F-16 is also another matter altogether.

[Eviscerator]

Taking into account your statements on lower velocity of AP rounds in "Btech Tech Archive" as an example of decreased capabilities

Round 1
That's right. You just need magic mats and super exps to improve armour penetration, not speed! This even though your rounds are still HEAP.

Round 2
Errr..... My stating of shaped charges was to suggest that AP rounds in Btech isn't APHE, but rather, HEAT, thus explaining away the different mats/explosives bit.

Knock Out
Except HEAT penetration is a function of the diameter and quality of the explosives. Seems as how just as you pointed out, but was already clear, this is about ammo as opposed to changing the cannon you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself. :rolleye: Yeah, you're so smart you can smart off about their stupidity... NOT.

Brings into question whether or not you know the difference between a normal 30mm cannon round and the 30mm cannon rounds used by an A-10.

[Eviscerator]

The dropships have already been established for you to be overlords. Even if we were to nitpick on timeline, the Mckenna basic weaponery and functions aren't going to change. The LCS Invincible did not gain a *10 jump in firepower just because the WOB got their paws on her.

IRL, all military units go through evolutions based on technology and who has them. Right, overlords. That's like me telling you, oh, ive got a MIG-21 here. What kind of MIG-21?

[Batman]

Who cares? Since the actual FIREPOWER (as opposed to the range or accuracy they could deliver it at/with) has stayed roughly the same?
I also notice that you STILL have failed to post any numbers WRT BTech firepower whatsoever.

[Eviscerator]

I must have missed the part where an M1A2 retains exactly the same capabilities as the baseline M1 tank.

because the sum effectiveness of a Military Unit is a combinant of armament, crew, and electronic suites/other ancillary equipment.
Im not a numbers person on joules, kt, mt, etc, im a numbers on type capabilities, complements, and weapons suites.

To even suggest the LCS Invincible at the time of its deployment to Hesperus II is the same Invincible that was recaptured by loyalist forces is an error. Firstly, it was refitted and brought back up to original spec (at least), re-crewed and fitted with Lithium-Fusion batteries.

Painrack has consistently ignored the fact that military units consistently evolve and the original spec SL aerofighter is markedly different from the same iteration in 3075 tech level scenarios. Simply reading basic TR: 3057 and it is clear that the original SLDF Warships as left with kerensky are different from the ones in Clan service. So different, in fact that the name of the class had to be changed. To say that BT aerospace designs are eminently all the same ignores the entire section in TR:3057 which lists the various variants of fighters according to house/tech level.
Just as an example: Ahab 90ton aerofighter (with extra info from TR: 3050 upgrade)
AHB-X
AHB-443
AHB-643 - with heavy ppcs, mrms and rocket pods
AHB-Unknown-targeting computer and Alamo compatible hardpoints

Whirlwind: ferro-carbide armor provides x 2 original armor,and space saving allows fighter carriage.
Riga/York: extensive refits effectively changing the class, incorporating extra anti-fighter systems and 5 hangar decks
Essex: Athena-3 computer installed, allowing vessel to operate at a bare minumum of 25 crew if required
Black Lion: hull-sealant units, LF batts, lamellor ferro-carbide armor.
Sovetskii Soyuz: 5th dropship collar, ferro-alum armor, LF battery
Avatar/Liberator: ferro-carbide armor for 50% extra armor factor without impedance of cargo capacity.
Cameron: errors in power-distribution system which caused the loss of the SLS St.Joan to pirates corrected and LF-batt installed.
(still fails to meet original SLDF design specs)
Potemkin: hull sealant, LF batt, converted during Exodus to carry passengers which reduced cargo space avail severely.

Just to once more, the SLDF era Mckenna did NOT have the ability to carry 3075 tech fighters, dropships, did not have harjel damage control equipment which Phelan says on Endgame Page 138: With harjel, we can actually rearmor our more critically damaged sections" And just as a by the way, if harjel was not present on the SLS Kharkov turned CW Dire Wolf, Ilkhan Nicholas Kerensky or Khan Vlad Ward would NOT have survived and the entire course of btech history would have been altered.

[Eviscerator]

Who cares? Since the actual FIREPOWER (as opposed to the range or accuracy they could deliver it at/with) has stayed roughly the same?

Weapons on warships or any other military unit are always in a constant state of evolving. Suggesting for an example that an WW2 Iowa delivers the exact same ordnance at the same range,accuracy or final explosive power as the upgraded DS Iowa is somehow suggesting that the addition of:

Tomahawk/Harpoon missiles
Phalanx CIWS
improved fire control systems
EW suite
UAV drone to adjust shot fall
nuclear artillery shells (we cannot confirm or deny, but the capability existed)

Do not in anyway increase the overall capabilities of the class is like saying the Motorola phone of today has exactly the same abilities as an Motorala DynaTAC circa 1983.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_o ... battleship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC

Likewise, the MIG-21 used in the vietnam war bears only cosmetic resemblance to modern upgrade packages like
MiG-21-93
Russia now offers an upgrade package to bring late-model MiG-21s up to the MiG-21-93 standard. This package provides an upgrade of the avionics suite that includes installation of the Kopyo pulse-doppler radar used by the MiG-29, which enables the aircraft to fire a greater range of modern weapons such as the beyond-visual-range Vympel R-77 air-to-air missile. The upgraded avionics also enhance the aircraft's survivability as well as its ability to engage enemy fighters. Other upgrade features include installation of a dual-screen HUD, helmet-mounted target designator, and advanced flight control systems.

Er, so BVR AAMs dont affect the range a fighter can shoot down targets?

[Ghost Rider]

So any numbers? I mean for fuck's sake the least one can do it to contest Painrack is demonstrate your numbers will do what needs to be done. Instead you've essentially been "Nu-uh!".

[PainRack]

I must have missed the part where an M1A2 retains exactly the same capabilities as the baseline M1 tank.

because the sum effectiveness of a Military Unit is a combinant of armament, crew, and electronic suites/other ancillary equipment.
Im not a numbers person on joules, kt, mt, etc, im a numbers on type capabilities, complements, and weapons suites.

To even suggest the LCS Invincible at the time of its deployment to Hesperus II is the same Invincible that was recaptured by loyalist forces is an error. Firstly, it was refitted and brought back up to original spec (at least), re-crewed and fitted with Lithium-Fusion batteries.

The CRUCIAL point you keep missing out on is the bit about FIREPOWER. You keep insisting that oh, 3072 Mckenna will be significantly superior to 2750 McKenna because of the WOB refitting. The crux remains that in terms of raw capabilities, they're STILL the same.

Pointing to the M1 and M1A2 is pointless because in this case, there WAS a significant firepower boost with regards to the guns.

Taking into account your statements on lower velocity of AP rounds in "Btech Tech Archive" as an example of decreased capabilities

lol. You know, I like to post my full sentences once more. No offence to Gunhead and FOG3, but I'm still wondering WHY people stated I claimed HEAT=APHE.

reduces its muzzle velocity

This even though your rounds are still HEAP. Granted, it COULD be shaped charges we're talking about here, which would be equivalent to how shaped charges explosives used by infantry in swarming attacks can also do critical damage rolls, but one begs to wonder why it would take 4 centuries for them to realise this when bog standard infantry are already using shaped charges.

Note my opening post. Note the sequence of my points.
1. The Handbook states that the muzzle velocity is reduced, but they changed the AP capabilities of the round via "mats and explosives".
2. I postulate that what actually occured was they changed the round type from APHE, which requires significantly on muzzle velocity for armour penetration, to HEAT, which relies more on the diameter of the shell for armour penetration. HENCE EXPLAINING AWAY WHY THERE WAS INCREASED ARMOUR PENETRATION EVEN THOUGH THE ROUND IS OF LOWER MUZZLE VELOCITY.
3. I find this design change stupid because shaped charges are common in Battletech.

Up to now, years after I posted this, I STILL have readers failing to understand why I claimed that the autocannon round must had been changed from APHE to HEAT.

Here's what I meant one more time. I DO fucking understand that HEAT DOESN"T REQUIRE MUZZLE VELOCITY TO WORK. THAT"S THE FUCKING REASON WHY I SAID THE MAGIC MATS CHANGE MUST HAD BEEN A SHELL TYPE CHANGE FROM APHE TO HEAT.

I have been reading through that post over and over again for the past two years and I still can't figure out why readers believe that I claimed that APHE=HEAT.

Painrack has consistently ignored the fact that military units consistently evolve and the original spec SL aerofighter is markedly different from the same iteration in 3075 tech level scenarios. Simply reading basic TR: 3057 and it is clear that the original SLDF Warships as left with kerensky are different from the ones in Clan service. So different, in fact that the name of the class had to be changed. To say that BT aerospace designs are eminently all the same ignores the entire section in TR:3057 which lists the various variants of fighters according to house/tech level.
Just as an example: Ahab 90ton aerofighter (with extra info from TR: 3050 upgrade)
AHB-X
AHB-443
AHB-643 - with heavy ppcs, mrms and rocket pods
AHB-Unknown-targeting computer and Alamo compatible hardpoints

You UTTERLY ignored the issue that in this context, we're discussing FIREPOWER. The basic firepower of the McKenna did NOT change.

It's around here that your basically running your mouth off and not listening to it. So an SL tech fighter can be compared to IS Omnifighters, what with the additional possible weapons like heavy ppcs, VSLs, MRMs and the rest? The Invincible that was woken up for a last hurrah, crewed with old fogeys and barely making the jump to hesperus similiar to the WOB's "extensive and expensive refit" which at the least included an lithium fusion batt?

Actually. YES. The firepower numbers did not change in any order of magnitude. Their relative effectiveness against their counterparts did, but a 2750 and a 3072 aerospace fighter has the same approximate firepower. At best, the 3072 aerospace fighter has an increased space for weapons. Tonnage wise, you be surprised how little has changed with regards to tonnage/heat/damage ratio.
Its even more funny because AT places even less reliance on BT ranges, where the distances of short/medium/long has an even greater impact on weapons calculations. But, I digress into game mechanics.

Its odd to see how you handwave a discussion on firepower numbers by claiming technological era plays a key role. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't. The basic numbers remain the same. They do have a role in the OP, which was why one of the first questions asked was, which dropships. And NOBODY dennigrated you for pointing out and inquiring to the specifics of the Warship type and era, along with the possible loadout.

Your....... claims that defining the warship tech era and the loadout is a more critical issue, and I quote, I put it to you that the type of aircraft on the carrier is at the very least as important as the onboard weaponry if not more so is idiotic considering you haven't even quantified the aircraft weapons basic firepower. It gets even more idiotic when one considers that the improvements in firepower from DHS and construction exotics is rounded off to almost nothing once the standard/capital game mechanic conversion occurs. Why is THIS issue more important than defining firepower numbers?

Stop inserting your bloody red herrings into the thread. The OP author has asked what were the numbers, hence, the elaboration on this issue. You made false herrings that I claimed 3072 warships are fundamentally the same. I didn't. I stated that the firepower hasn't changed. You made the false claim to Batman that the capabilities have changed so drastically that the firepower has too. Unfortunately for you, that's false.

[Eviscerator]

Their relative effectiveness against their counterparts did, but a 2750 and a 3072 aerospace fighter has the same approximate firepower.
Its odd to see how you handwave a discussion on firepower numbers by claiming technological era plays a key role. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't. The basic numbers remain the same.

Your....... claims that defining the warship tech era and the loadout is a more critical issue, and I quote, I put it to you that the type of aircraft on the carrier is at the very least as important as the onboard weaponry if not more so is idiotic considering you haven't even quantified the aircraft weapons basic firepower. It gets even more idiotic when one considers that the improvements in firepower from DHS and construction exotics is rounded off to almost nothing once the standard/capital game mechanic conversion occurs. Why is THIS issue more important than defining firepower numbers?
I stated that the firepower hasn't changed. You made the false claim to Batman that the capabilities have changed so drastically that the firepower has too. Unfortunately for you, that's false.

I further remind you that for the moment we do not have any concrete stats on WOB-refit WarShips, but we do have WOB-refit everything else including Union "pocket warships" and COM-7B Commandos which have far greater capabilities than COM-2D Commandos. Nothing, after it gets redone by the Wobbies is ever the same.

An M1A2 and M1 do not only differ in their main cannon caliber, they also differ in that they have heavier armor and something akin to C3 systems (IVIS). If you are now sayin C3 Systems dont enhance the overall capability of the unit, something is definetely wrong here.

You are some how handwaving the reasons for TR:2750 to 3075. If there was no difference in an unit why do they need to constantly update the TRs? You are actually saying that an Ahab that has the capibilities to mount Alamos has less power than a orginal spec Ahab?

You are now saying that an HCT-213B (SL) has exactly the same capabilities as an HCT-215(Comstar/WOB)?
HCT-213B : 2 large lasers, BAP, medium laser, standard engine, 15 single heat sinks, standard armor
HCT-215: 5 light ppcs, forward and aft ER medium lasers , XL engine, 15 DHS, ferro aluminum armor
Are exactly the same both in cost, battle value, capabilities?????? There, thats my numbers right there.
Okay, basic firepower then. Binary laser cannon causes 16-18 points of damage vs ER PPC at 10 points. Jihad Secrets:blake documents says so. Now tell me the Binary Lascannon causes less damage than the ER PPC.

My red herrings are not red herrings, they are an attempt to insert some Real-Life Analogs into the discussion. Trying to say that the M16S1 is equal to the M16A4 or AMX-13 SM1 vs original french AMX-13 demonstrates a plain ignorance of basic miltech. I can go dig up my Jane's reference book if required on this.

Are u then saying that
Riga/York: extensive refits effectively changing the class, incorporating extra anti-fighter systems and 5 hangar decks
Sovetskii Soyuz: 5th dropship collar, ferro-alum armor, LF battery

That the extra docking collar and extra fighters do not change the capabilities of both WarShips? The extra dropship could be an Overlord A3, capable of challenging and temporarily running off a Fox-class Corvette. The extra fighters could very well carry a slew of nukes.

I am not in anyway handwaving that time period/technological era does not play a role. There are accounts that F-15s in Desert Storm did not pick up SA-2 Guidelines because it was not anticipated that they would be used. That error most assuredly has been checked.

[Eviscerator]

. You keep insisting that oh, 3072 Mckenna will be significantly superior to 2750 McKenna because of the WOB refitting. The crux remains that in terms of raw capabilities, they're STILL the same.

.

The WObblies may not have radically remade the Zughoffer Weir, but they DID radically remake the THS E.Presly (WOBS Immortal Spirit) by giving it an Super-Jump system. Im hampered by not having TR:3057 upgrade but i distinctly remember that the Upgrade has two seperate listings for Clan and SL era Mckenna. It follows as a given that the WOB refit will be different.

You are still handwaving the crucial harjel tech which will be available on a Clan Mckenna and Phelan has said it will allow "damage-control magic" Right, er, so the survival of two major clan characters due to harjel is an minor event? Am i missing something here?