Starcraft vs Halo

[Teleros]

Unless they're non-canon, I don't see why not.

[Iosef Cross]

How much developed is the Terran capability of BDZ planets in Starcraft? Korhal was pretty much devastated by the Confederation, but life continued, albeit highly modified by the new environment.

[Iosef Cross]

Also, the Terran Dominion appears to posses some significant industrial capabilities:



That's Korhal in SCII, about 15 years after suffering a nuclear holocaust. Now it's tending to look like Coruscant.

[Balrog]

Finally Mike came up with a question he thought they could answer. “What did this? Nukes?”

The word seemed to break Duke from his steady stream of information. He looked at the reporter. “Atomic delivery systems leave blackened glass and burning forests. Even Korhal had some surviving pockets of clear terrain, for a while at least. Chau Sara has been burned down to the liquid core in places. This is much more deadly than even Apocalypse bombs.”

So it wasn't a clean sweep like Exterminatus or Base Delta Zero, but still impressive none the less.

And that Korhal pic is just ridicules. It seems one of the fluff changes Blizzard is making includes power creep.

[Guardsman Bass]

No kidding. How the fuck did the planet become so heavily populated and urbanized when it was little more than a desert in Brood War and the original population didn't number much more than 4 million people (the passage in the Starcraft guide booklet mentions that the strike that nuked Korhal to hell and back eradicated "over 4 million people")?

I mean, a big part of the original setting was that it was a fairly recent post-colonial one - you had some decently populated worlds (Tarsonis, Umoja, Moria), but most of the remaining worlds were backwaters with relatively minor populations. And considering that most of the worlds were laid waste or otherwise afflicted with warfare in the Zerg invasion, it should be much less than even that.

[Srelex]

Here's what the planet apparently looked like after bombardment:

[Ford Prefect]

I mean, a big part of the original setting was that it was a fairly recent post-colonial one - you had some decently populated worlds (Tarsonis, Umoja, Moria), but most of the remaining worlds were backwaters with relatively minor populations. And considering that most of the worlds were laid waste or otherwise afflicted with warfare in the Zerg invasion, it should be much less than even that.

A while back on Spacebattles, I did some really generous maths about the population of the Koprulu Sector. It wasn't a lot.

[Balrog]

Didn't the colonists arrive with 32 million people? I can't imagine, even after a few hundred years, you could get a large population out of that starting number.

[Srelex]

Didn't the colonists arrive with 32 million people? I can't imagine, even after a few hundred years, you could get a large population out of that starting number.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEES_81oVdw

That trailer mentions the Terrans suffering casaulties in the 'billions'...or 'millions' to Zerg invasion, I can't make it out very well.

[Guardsman Bass]

Didn't the colonists arrive with 32 million people? I can't imagine, even after a few hundred years, you could get a large population out of that starting number.

It was 32,000, actually - 8,000 for each of the 4 super-carriers. Not all of them made it, either - one of them crashed when trying to descend to the surface of Umoja and killed all its passengers in the process.

[Balrog]

Found my copy of the manual, it was 40,000 originally but then one of the four crashed, killing 8,000 and leaving only 32,000 left.

How the hell you get from that to "billions" is beyond me. I suspect more patented Blizzard retcon is in our future.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Found my copy of the manual, it was 40,000 originally but then one of the four crashed, killing 8,000 and leaving only 32,000 left.

How the hell you get from that to "billions" is beyond me. I suspect more patented Blizzard retcon is in our future.

Okay, here goes with me trying my best for an explanation that matches established canon and doesn't horribly violate SoD. Understand I'm just shooting in the dark to try and keep things balanced here:

During the whole earth civil war thingies that went on before the colonization (briefly glossed over in the Starcraft manual), a huge cause of the conflict was the breeding/modification of genetic supermen. In the aftermath of those wars, the victors were, IIRC, the 'purists' that were generally against heavy genetic modification. Now the military being the military, what if they kept some of what seemed the most useful under wraps?

Going with this, what if they proposed this great idea to create colonies of billions in a generation or four with an initial pool of just several thousand? Utilizing science thought eradicated and made illegal in the wake of those wars? It could be anything from some sort of reproductive cloning process that makes dozens/hundreds of genetically viable offspring rather than the 1-4 that come about from normal breeding, or it could be simply packing massive DNA libraries aboard the ships in secret with the necessary materials to translate them into functioning people once colonization is underway. Or maybe some combination of all of the above with a little extra stuff thrown in?

Either way, if we throw away the assumption that humanity is restricted to breeding and advancing at the rate we do now, the fact that they went from an initial pool of 32,000 to billions is a bit more plausible. How plausible I don't know because I'm thoroughly uneducated in those fields, but I'm sure someone with a bit more knowledge can either elaborate on it, or just blow the theory out of the water.

[Connor MacLeod]

Found my copy of the manual, it was 40,000 originally but then one of the four crashed, killing 8,000 and leaving only 32,000 left.

How the hell you get from that to "billions" is beyond me. I suspect more patented Blizzard retcon is in our future.

Well if thy're space rednecks they probably breed early, breed often, and breed numerous.

[Raxmei]

From 32,000 to a billion is 15 doublings. If they fuck like Liberians they can manage that in 230 years. There are a few other places that grow fast enough to manage that in 300 years. How much time do we have to work with here?

[Darksider]

less than a century

The first Starcraft book "Liberty's crusade" mentions the "old families" that rule the Terran Confederacy, and the eldest members are supposed to have arrived on the sleeper ships.

[Srelex]

less than a century

The first Starcraft book "Liberty's crusade" mentions the "old families" that rule the Terran Confederacy, and the eldest members are supposed to have arrived on the sleeper ships.

Not quite. After checking the Starcraft wiki, it seems that they arrived in 2300, with the current game set around 2500. It could be that said families simply possess medical technology to prolong themselves.

[Iosef Cross]

From 32,000 to a billion is 15 doublings. If they fuck like Liberians they can manage that in 230 years. There are a few other places that grow fast enough to manage that in 300 years. How much time do we have to work with here?

I thought they arrived around ~2200 in the sector. The manual story said a more or less exact date. But if they are like Liberians they could have growth to 30 billion by 2500.

[Iosef Cross]

No kidding. How the fuck did the planet become so heavily populated and urbanized when it was little more than a desert in Brood War and the original population didn't number much more than 4 million people (the passage in the Starcraft guide booklet mentions that the strike that nuked Korhal to hell and back eradicated "over 4 million people")?

I mean, a big part of the original setting was that it was a fairly recent post-colonial one - you had some decently populated worlds (Tarsonis, Umoja, Moria), but most of the remaining worlds were backwaters with relatively minor populations. And considering that most of the worlds were laid waste or otherwise afflicted with warfare in the Zerg invasion, it should be much less than even that.

In the original game korhal already had a metropolis with a impressive skyline, as can be seem in the cinematic of the first campaign. After the infestation of Tarsonis and other planets, their population was evacuated, while korhal was the capital of the dominion and probably received refuges. It's population must be the highest in the sector.

But these blizzard games have highly unrealistic time frames for their stories. In Warcraft 3 entire countries were destroyed, its population evacuated and a new kingdom build, in months.

[Guardsman Bass]

EDIT: Crap, I meant to preview, not post. Since I'm going to be making a decent sized post, I'll just leave this one like this.

[Guardsman Bass]

Looking at the Manual,

1)The United Powers League (the predecessor to the UED) was founded in 2229.

On November 22, 2229, the United Powers League was founded.

2)"Project Purification" (the one that wiped out all the genetically and cybernetically modified along with many criminals) coincided with a period of forty years in which the UPL greatly expanded their space colonization capabilities. The colonization effort that ultimately led to the settling of the Koprulu Sector occurred "during this period".

Within the span of forty years, the UPL founded colonies upon the moon and many of the other planets within the Terran solar system.

During this period .. . . Routhe was able to secure thousands of UPL prisoners to use as guinea pigs for his secret plans.

The prisoners, slated for mass execution under the edict of Project Purification . . .

3)The four ships, the Argo, Sarengo, Nagglfar, and Reagan, drifted in warp for 28 years before ending up in the Koprulu Sector.

After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system.

4)"At least" sixty years passed before the initial three colonies - Tarsonis, Umoja, and Moria - were reunited by space travel.

In a relatively short amount of time, the three isolated groups of Terrans founded sister colonies upon their respective worlds, and although it would be at least sixty years before the colonies would be reunited by space travel . . .

5)In an attack that reduced "the prosperous colony of Korhal" to "nothing more than a super-heated sphere of blackened glass and stirring phantoms", over 4,000,000 people were killed.

A salvo of one thousand Apocalypse-class nuclear missiles was fired at the planet of Korhal from the distant Confederate capital of Tarsonis. Over 4,000,000 people were annihilated during the savage attack.

Unless someone has some info from the games and the canon fluff, we just don't know how much time passed between when the Koprulu Colonies first re-established contact and when they encountered the Protoss and Zerg. We also don't know exactly when during the forty year period that the expedition was launched, but assuming that it was launched at the very end - 2269 CE - that means that the Koprulu Sector was first settled in 2297 CE, and the colonies re-discovered at least interplanetary space travel by 2357 CE. After that, we don't know. *

* This is going off recollection, but I remember that one of the previews for Starcraft on my Warcraft II disc began with something like "The time is the twenty-eighth century".

EDIT: Wait, I found something from the "Protoss" part of the manual. It says that the Protoss "bore silent witness" to the arrival of humanity to their space, and that two centuries passed while the Protoss watched over the budding Terran colonists. Of course, it also adds the tidbit of "many years", so the 200 years might have just been the initial part of Terran colonization.

The Protoss bore silent witness to the portentous arrival of Humanity to their edge of space. .. . . Two centuries passed as the Protoss watched over the budding Terran colonists.

. . . This disjointed relationship lasted for many years between the two races.

[Balrog]

In the original game korhal already had a metropolis with a impressive skyline, as can be seem in the cinematic of the first campaign. After the infestation of Tarsonis and other planets, their population was evacuated, while korhal was the capital of the dominion and probably received refuges. It's population must be the highest in the sector.

Yeah, but all we saw were a few skyscrapers in the cinematic. And during BW the loading screen for the Korhal missions showed a landscape that was still mostly desert, along with the actual tile set. No hint that it would become a mini-Coruscant in a matter of years.

So barring any crazy tech, how realistic is it for the Terrans to grow to billions with such a low starting point? I mean, a growth rate like Liberia's is hardly sustainable over the long term.

[Srelex]

In any case, I have some pics that we hopefully can draw some calcs from:


A Thor in action. The size of the explosion can be gauged from the siege tank right next to it--the vehicles appear to be unaffected by the blast and the heat. Assuming the explosion is being produced by the firepower of just one of the Thors, I would compare it to a fuel air bomb, but if someone is willing to produce more detailed calcs, feel free to correct me.


Protoss bombardment. The crust seems to be actually fragmenting, and at least thousands of kilometers of ejecta is being thrown up. Definitely into the exoton and petaton range, I would think.


More Protoss bombardment. Not as impressive as the last picture, but given as the fireballs produced are clearly visible from orbit, it's in the gigaton range at least, I would guesstimate.

What else can be extrapolated from this?

[Samuel]

In the original game korhal already had a metropolis with a impressive skyline, as can be seem in the cinematic of the first campaign. After the infestation of Tarsonis and other planets, their population was evacuated, while korhal was the capital of the dominion and probably received refuges. It's population must be the highest in the sector.

Yeah, but all we saw were a few skyscrapers in the cinematic. And during BW the loading screen for the Korhal missions showed a landscape that was still mostly desert, along with the actual tile set. No hint that it would become a mini-Coruscant in a matter of years.

So barring any crazy tech, how realistic is it for the Terrans to grow to billions with such a low starting point? I mean, a growth rate like Liberia's is hardly sustainable over the long term.

These are people who, after a horrific war are able to completely recover in 4 years to the point of replacing large amounts of their previous military gear. I think it is safe to say that the Terrans have an insane industrial base. Realistic? Not remotely.

Also, to evacuate implies they have enough ships to hold all those people.

[Iosef Cross]

So barring any crazy tech, how realistic is it for the Terrans to grow to billions with such a low starting point? I mean, a growth rate like Liberia's is hardly sustainable over the long term.

If you drop 32,000 people over 3 habitable planets with good medical technology, I think that the tendency is for population explosion.

Growing faster than Liberia, since infant mortality can be eliminated: If you have 1 family with 8 kids on average, with the average generation of 20-25 years, population would double in 10-12 years. That could be the rate of growth during the initial years of colonization. After a century of explosive growth, population would be in the millions and the rate of growth would be reduced.

[Iosef Cross]

What else can be extrapolated from this?

1- Since Terrans and Zerg can effectively fight the Protoss, their "power" levels would be roughly equal.

2- Carriers are the ships with do BDZ's.

3- Halo is fucked.