Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by white_rabbit »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I have heard much outrage over the BA codex. Apparently it is the fifth codex in a row to kill an Eldar Avatar, and the war god Khaine is the new Worf. "How do we let our customers know that this Calgar Carnifex Baneblade Tau marker drone Sanguinor new character is serious business? I know! He can kill an Avatar!"
Err, let me think.

Slaaneshi daemon takes one out in Daemons codex
Calgar "surprise uppercuts" one in Marine Codex
Sanguinor kills one offscreen in BA codex.
Iyanden's gang-raped by a giant Carnifex brood in the new nid codex
Dawn of War novels and games, Biel-tans apparently neutered Avatar is killed by Isador and Gabriel Angelos, in DoW2, you kill the same Avatar twice.
Imperial Guard tanks blast one into a giant river of pollution IIRC in an Apocalypse book.

In Shadow Point the Avatar rocks out, and is pretty awesome, and in its very first (or just about) piece of background, one snaps a Keeper of Secrets in half, and telekinetically rips out a Cultist demagogues heart.

Mmm, on the balance, they do seem to be Worf of Clan 40k, I think the Iyanden avatar being ganked is the most egregious one, since it actually retcons it from leading the final victory over the invading swarm, and personally skewering the apparently invulnerable Hive Tyrant leading the attack, to it stomping forward to face off against the Tyrant, who promptly gives the nod to a Carnifex brood, who then gang-rape the Avatar, while Admiral Yriel pokes the spear of twilight at the Tyrant.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

I hear that, for the next Eldar Codex, they have a plan to make the Avatar of Khaine seem tough again: he's going to kill an Avatar.

I suspect that the benchmark will be moved up to either killing Titans single-handedly or slaying Trygons/Mawlocs/bio-titans with only a sidearm. Maybe a lucky hero will get to kill a Space Marine Chapter Master, but only if he's lucky.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
I suspect that the benchmark will be moved up to either killing Titans single-handedly or slaying Trygons/Mawlocs/bio-titans with only a sidearm. Maybe a lucky hero will get to kill a Space Marine Chapter Master, but only if he's lucky.
I chuckle at the current crop of Chaos Lords being associated with luck in any way. And they kill/crucify/sacrifice chapter masters for fun. Its one of the few upsides for Codex Spikey Space Marines players.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Kuja »

white_rabbit wrote:Err, let me think.

Slaaneshi daemon takes one out in Daemons codex
Calgar "surprise uppercuts" one in Marine Codex
Sanguinor kills one offscreen in BA codex.
Iyanden's gang-raped by a giant Carnifex brood in the new nid codex
Dawn of War novels and games, Biel-tans apparently neutered Avatar is killed by Isador and Gabriel Angelos, in DoW2, you kill the same Avatar twice.
Imperial Guard tanks blast one into a giant river of pollution IIRC in an Apocalypse book.

In Shadow Point the Avatar rocks out, and is pretty awesome, and in its very first (or just about) piece of background, one snaps a Keeper of Secrets in half, and telekinetically rips out a Cultist demagogues heart.
There's also the one Fulgrim punches to death.

Literally.

He hauls off, punches it in the face, and his fist comes out the other side.

That was a serious 'holy shit!' moment.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Falkenhayn wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
I suspect that the benchmark will be moved up to either killing Titans single-handedly or slaying Trygons/Mawlocs/bio-titans with only a sidearm. Maybe a lucky hero will get to kill a Space Marine Chapter Master, but only if he's lucky.
I chuckle at the current crop of Chaos Lords being associated with luck in any way. And they kill/crucify/sacrifice chapter masters for fun. Its one of the few upsides for Codex Spikey Space Marines players.
It was a joke. Considering that there must have been 10s or 100s of thousands of chapter masters in the last 10,000 years, they shouldn't really be any kind of benchmark at all. Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
I suspect that the benchmark will be moved up to either killing Titans single-handedly or slaying Trygons/Mawlocs/bio-titans with only a sidearm. Maybe a lucky hero will get to kill a Space Marine Chapter Master, but only if he's lucky.
I chuckle at the current crop of Chaos Lords being associated with luck in any way. And they kill/crucify/sacrifice chapter masters for fun. Its one of the few upsides for Codex Spikey Space Marines players.
It was a joke. Considering that there must have been 10s or 100s of thousands of chapter masters in the last 10,000 years, they shouldn't really be any kind of benchmark at all. Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
The only answer that matters to Games Workshop, none of the selling ones.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote: It was a joke. Considering that there must have been 10s or 100s of thousands of chapter masters in the last 10,000 years, they shouldn't really be any kind of benchmark at all. Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
2 whole chapters eaten, god knows how many crippled.


Also, seriously, can anyone recommend me a Space Marine series? I absolutely can't find any series out there that I liked and yes, I looked at Space Wolf. Its nice, but...... no idea, not my cup of tea even though I loved Felix and Grotex.

Also, why the love for Dan Abett?
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by white_rabbit »

There's also the one Fulgrim punches to death.

Literally.

He hauls off, punches it in the face, and his fist comes out the other side.

That was a serious 'holy shit!' moment.
oops, deleted that one for some reason,

Yeah, Fulgrim bashes one with his bare hands, he does get severely burned mind, which suggests to me that Night Haunter won't be doing his previously described swim through the molten metal crust of Nostramo and climbing out of the crater he made dripping with molten metal.
Also, why the love for Dan Abett?
Why shouldn't we love Mr Abnett ? He's one of the best things to have happened to 40k fiction, I'd happily say that him and Bill King were key to the growth of the Black library as a publishing arm.

If the loyalists aren't doing it for you, try the Word Bearers series by Anthony Reynolds, or the just started Night Lords series.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Falkenhayn »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
It was a joke. Considering that there must have been 10s or 100s of thousands of chapter masters in the last 10,000 years, they shouldn't really be any kind of benchmark at all. Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
I know you're joking, Bob. My humor must be too dry: it's been an interesting week. But I'm also quite bad at being funny.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Just finished "A Thousand Sons" and it may well be my favorite of the Horus Heresy novels. Magnus and the Thousand Sons "fall" was far more believable than the Alpha Legion novel, and the plotline was a vast improvement in my opinion over the novel for the Word Bearers. Leman Russ and, imo, the Emperor came out looking like dicks. I would highly recommend it to a Warhammer 40K fan, and I went in with mixed expectations since it was by Graham McNeil.

Also, no Avatars died in the making of this novel. :P
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Jaevric wrote:Just finished "A Thousand Sons" and it may well be my favorite of the Horus Heresy novels. Magnus and the Thousand Sons "fall" was far more believable than the Alpha Legion novel, and the plotline was a vast improvement in my opinion over the novel for the Word Bearers. Leman Russ and, imo, the Emperor came out looking like dicks. I would highly recommend it to a Warhammer 40K fan, and I went in with mixed expectations since it was by Graham McNeil.
What's wrong with Graham MacNeil...er, anymore? Sure, Storm of Iron was unbelievably Mary-Suish and Dead Sky Black Sun was an abomination, but Graham's been one of BL's most solid writers for a while now. Mechanicus, Fulgrim, Nightbringer, Warriors of Ultramar, Heldenhammer, Defenders of Ulthuan, Guardians of the Forest, and the Ambassador were all good reads. I'm not quite finished with A Thousand Sons, but so far it is very well done. I think it just shows that Graham has been growing as a writer where Dan Abnett has been stagnating.

As for recommended series about Space Marines: Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar are both good, even if they are about the Ultramarines. Brothers of the Snake is also very good, but some readers find it a little too over-the-top as it has something of a 300 homage in the middle. Mostly, I recommend the short stories. Space Marines are usually easier to read about when you only have to know them for 30 or 40 pages.


Also, no Avatars died in the making of this novel. :P
Actually, you're wrong. "Psychneuein" is the Prosperoan word for "Eldar Avatar." Think about it.

Also, all of the titans Magnus and company killed were really just really big Avatars. So was Ohthyre(?) Wyrdmake. He was just in a really, really good disguise.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote:What's wrong with Graham MacNeil...er, anymore? Sure, Storm of Iron was unbelievably Mary-Suish and Dead Sky Black Sun was an abomination, but Graham's been one of BL's most solid writers for a while now. Mechanicus, Fulgrim, Nightbringer, Warriors of Ultramar, Heldenhammer, Defenders of Ulthuan, Guardians of the Forest, and the Ambassador were all good reads.
If only he'd get around to doing the bloody sequel for that one. :P
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Ghost Rider wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
The only answer that matters to Games Workshop, none of the selling ones.
Actually, GW did officially kill off some of their (admittedly second-tier) "popular" chapters, such as the Rainbow Warriors and the Lamentors...and I think the Flesh Tearers. They've also turned the Crimson Fists into a chapter that's perpetually at death's door.

EDIT:
If only he'd get around to doing the bloody sequel for that one. :P
I know! I emailed him about it and he said that it was the one he gets asked about the most. He has a deadline for it and some sort of draft. It's probably going to be released the next time GW release a new High Elves codex... Although, there are rumors that the next WHFB edition will come out this summer with a box set that will feature High Elves and Skaven, so there is a possibility that BL will want to release it sooner rather than later.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Heck, how many entire chapters have the Tyranids eaten, anyway? How many chapters have the Necrons killed off?
The only answer that matters to Games Workshop, none of the selling ones.
Actually, GW did officially kill off some of their (admittedly second-tier) "popular" chapters, such as the Rainbow Warriors and the Lamentors...and I think the Flesh Tearers. They've also turned the Crimson Fists into a chapter that's perpetually at death's door.
Which is about the same as Lucas going "But I killed off Jango!". Some will know of him, some will note it, but the overall mass will go "Eh, was a rip off of something better.". Sometimes I swear they make chapters to die, to implicate the same thing killing an Avatar means. Said foe is really something powerful or deadly...kind of.

I can see them possibly going as far as maybe touching one of the lower end original chapters but dare hinting at the end of Blood Angels or dare I dream Ultramarines? Never. I'll hear of the all female Space Marine chapter "The GoGo Girls" first.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Actually, GW did officially kill off some of their (admittedly second-tier) "popular" chapters, such as the Rainbow Warriors and the Lamentors...and I think the Flesh Tearers. They've also turned the Crimson Fists into a chapter that's perpetually at death's door.
The Crimson Fists were introduced as being nearly wiped out. As for the Lamenters, there were precisely two mentions of them in the fluff for over a decade; they were on the wrong side of the Badab War, then they got eaten by a Hive Fleet. I think whatever popularity they had came after their near-annihilation (presumably, after their appearance in Chapter Approved 2004).
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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I can see them possibly going as far as maybe touching one of the lower end original chapters but dare hinting at the end of Blood Angels
Well....The Blood Angels are supposed to be in dire trouble now, they recently had to beg for recruits from their successors, and now have got vast armies closing in on them, blah blah.

Frankly, you are right in the gist of what you are saying, they won't kill them off, but they hint at shit all the time, the Blood Angels have been steadily pushed towards the Angst side for the last 3 editions, culminating with the "oh shit they are all gonna die" line in the latest codex.

Scythes of the Emperor are another "introduced more or less extinct" chapter, you find bits of the chapter entombed in Nid ships in Space Crusade.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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white_rabbit wrote:
I can see them possibly going as far as maybe touching one of the lower end original chapters but dare hinting at the end of Blood Angels
Well....The Blood Angels are supposed to be in dire trouble now, they recently had to beg for recruits from their successors, and now have got vast armies closing in on them, blah blah.

Frankly, you are right in the gist of what you are saying, they won't kill them off, but they hint at shit all the time, the Blood Angels have been steadily pushed towards the Angst side for the last 3 editions, culminating with the "oh shit they are all gonna die" line in the latest codex.

Scythes of the Emperor are another "introduced more or less extinct" chapter, you find bits of the chapter entombed in Nid ships in Space Crusade.
They will never let the Angels die. Face it, SM fans fall into three types.

Noble Dick. Ultramarine.
Utter Dick. Black Templar type.
Raging pyschos. Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

And I SWEAR that Wh40k players are obessed with the colour red. Anyone saw a Warhound Titan painted in bright, neonish red?
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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PainRack wrote: And I SWEAR that Wh40k players are obessed with the colour red. Anyone saw a Warhound Titan painted in bright, neonish red?
It makes it go faster.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Has anyone read Rynn's World or the new Soul Hunter book? Are they any good?
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Falkenhayn »

Spoiler
Fucked it up again. The accusing Rune Priest is Othere Wyrdmake. Amlodhi's the Wolf Lord sent to summon the Thousand Sons by Leman. In a display of pure reason, Amlodhi tries to strongarm Magnus the Red, to his face, in the presence of Magnus' captains. The SWs display similar good judgment when they try to charge a non-Imperial human library preserved by the 'Sons, who halt them with telekinetic barriers and by not-too-subtly glitching their nervous systems. The SWs clearly attacked with lethal intent (, while Magnus specifically ordered no lives be taken, countermanding his lieutenants.

Thus, the first use of deadly force by Astartes on other loyal Astartes is by the SWs, on Leman's orders, and his alone, on the Thousand Sons. Lives are spared only by the Son's forebearance, and Lorgar's mediation. Erebus makes no appearance in this book. Even so, Tzeentch is playing Leman like a fiddle even before Horus' fall, assuming Erebus has turned by this point, which doesn't seem unreasonable.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

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And I SWEAR that Wh40k players are obessed with the colour red. Anyone saw a Warhound Titan painted in bright, neonish red?
There is a period in GW history that is sometimes referred to as the "red period". Lots of bright primary colours, Ultramarines with blue armour, glowing yellow trim on their armour, and bright red boltguns, holsters, belts etc. A lot of the earlier artwork was extremely colourful as well, Orkish clan colours were much more prominent, leading to bright yellow armoured Evil Sunz etc.

The concept has pretty much been stamped out now in official artwork and Eavy Metal stuff, yellow is now replaced with bronze, gold or brass in many schemes, screaming red boltguns have given way to metallics etc.

Obviously Red ones go faster as well.
Has anyone read Rynn's World or the new Soul Hunter book? Are they any good?
Rynn's World is pretty good, although the much hyped maps and extra content are worthless.

Soul Hunter is god damn awesome, and I can't wait for the next one.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Good. I will have to read those books soon.

How about books or stories about Tyranids (and not just Genestealers)? Having assembled a new Trygon, I'm now in the mood to read about the Tyranids and would enjoy something new. I've already read Duty Calls and Warriors of Ultramar (and I may have to re-read them), but I would like something I haven't read before. Are there any new Tyranid books or books with an interesting Tyranid appearance?

Short stories like "The Fall of Malvolion" and "Hive Fleet Horror" are good, too.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Imperial Overlord wrote:To say the Thousand Sons are presented sympathetically in Thousand Sons is an understatement. They're presented as tragic heroes, damned by circumstance and hubris despite the best intentions and the most admirable of goals. The destruction of Prospero is a monstrous act. The Space Wolves do a good job of earning every bit of payback the Thousand Sons will throw at them over the next ten thousand years.
You're right, I suppose, but I think that was one of the things that bugged me about the book. McNeill seemed to try TOO hard to make them likeable. I still like them and all, but then at the end Magnus' reaction seems to jar with the whole "then they turn to chaos" bit by the end. I mean if Magnus is staying loyal and feels that he and his legion's pride brought this down on them... why are they turning to Chaos? Or even (in a matter of years as I recall) conspiring with Horus to fight the Emperor?

It's kind of a tough call. On one hand I like how the Thousand Sons are portrayed (not just here, but the hints throughout the series) but then their ultimate actions in becoming a Traitor Legion become incomprehensible. As WR said though, McNeill likes to do 40K "his way" so this probably is just another case here, since if we confined it to the "McNeill viewpoint" it probably wouldn't be that inconsistent.

As for the Space Wolves, the HEresy series has done a good job it seems so far (I haven't read all the novels, of course) of portraying them as being bigger assholes than they come to be later on. These definitely aren't the Bill King Ragnar-era space wolves.
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Connor MacLeod »

PainRack wrote: They will never let the Angels die. Face it, SM fans fall into three types.

Noble Dick. Ultramarine.
Utter Dick. Black Templar type.
Raging pyschos. Space Wolves and Blood Angels.
Blood Angels arne't just psychos, nor are the latter (Ragnar era) Space Wolves. The main problem is that their gene-line is .. to put it mildly it is mutated and they have a bestial/animal side to deal with. in the SW case its cuz they're space vikings (BERSERKER RAGE WOLLVES RAR) or probably should be viking werewolves. In the Blood Angels case they're degenerating into vampires with chainsaws. Originally (and this I go back to 2nd edition) there was meant to be a sort of dichotomy between the two sides - the Blood Angels were noble, artistic, caring, etc. But also with a dark, bloodthirsty side. Space Wolves in modern times are berserkers but they tend to be one of the more upbeat chapters, particularily under the guise of their Chapter Master Logan Grimnar (who will actually go out of his way to raise a fuss with the Imperium if they do something he doesn't like. CF the Imperium's dickery with regards to the first population of Armageddon and Grimnar getting pissed off over it.)

The Salamanders are also not dicks. The Raven Guard (what little has been written thus far, like in Cadian Blood) aren't dicks either.

The directly dickish chapters are by and large a.) anything written by Ben Counter b.) The Dark Angels c.) The Iron Hands (Space Marine AdMech basically) The Black Templars aren't so much dicks as they are crusading religious fanatics (and therefore qualify as more psycho than the Wovles or Blood Angels do.) and the Iron Hands are also psychos (since they have that obsession with "flehs is weak, metal isn't" bullshit.)

Alot of the time, the relative or perceived dickishness of a Chapter (or lack thereof) depends entirely on the writer doing so. As I said if Ben Counter is writing it, you can 90% guarantee that the Space Marines will be dicks.
white rabbit wrote: There is a period in GW history that is sometimes referred to as the "red period". Lots of bright primary colours, Ultramarines with blue armour, glowing yellow trim on their armour, and bright red boltguns, holsters, belts etc. A lot of the earlier artwork was extremely colourful as well, Orkish clan colours were much more prominent, leading to bright yellow armoured Evil Sunz etc.

The concept has pretty much been stamped out now in official artwork and Eavy Metal stuff, yellow is now replaced with bronze, gold or brass in many schemes, screaming red boltguns have given way to metallics etc.
That would also be known as the "We still aren't taking this too seriously and haven't descended totally into grimdark yet" period, right? That's really the thing about 1st and 2nd edition.. the grimdark hadn't become so deeply entrenched and they managed to find some sort of (vague) balance between "good" and "bad". Whereas with succeeding editions its gone to "more gothic" and a balance between "less bad" and "worse".
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Stravo
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Re: Kuja Reviews: Some 40K

Post by Stravo »

What's everyone's take on the whole Horus Heresy series so far? I've fallen far behind and want to catch up again. I'm just finishing up Flight of the Eisenstein and I think Fulgrim is the next on in the series but I've been seeing some online reviews that have been unhappy with many of the books - Battle of the Abyss getting the worst of it but others mentioned too as generally bad. I don't want to buy into a series if I only get so-so payback in terms of story. I could just cherry pick the books I read but I'm kinda weird about reading every book in a series. Unfortunately I have not been happy with the depictions so far of the Primarchs - Horus especially. His fall was poorly handled I thought and his character a tad one dimensional. Frankly what I am really looking forward to is a very good depiction of the Siege of Terra which at the rate these books are going won't come for another few years.

For me the height of awesomeness in the 40K books I've read has been the Eisenhorn trilogy. Just amazing in every respect but admittedly I haven't really many books in all. I just read the ones that people here have generally raved about.
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