Of powered armor, mechs and feasibility.

[Jusu]

I'd rather see an Anime with an actual tank battle, I still think PatLabor is better than most Gundams, and the more recent MS Igloo OVAs just showed how merciless Tanks can against Zekes when properly led and coordinated. Powered Armor could prove useful. Allow the common infantryman to be able to shoulder more loads effectively, and if the thing is disable, shed unnecessary shit and the guy is still able to move around and shoot.

Its been a long while since I saw the original Gundam, but I thought that one of the major offensives by the Earth forces that led to a decisive Zeon defeat pitted conventional armour against Zeon mechs? Of course, I believe that happened off screen.

Operation Odessa, during the One Year War in the original universe. It was basically a Gundam-style version of millions of M4 Shermans (Type 61 MBT) with odd smatterings of M26 Pershings (Feddie GMs) versus thousands of Tiger Is, IIs, and Panthers (Zeon units). A better example would be the MS Igloo: Gravity Front OVAs. First episode is a platoon of raw recruits armed with wire-guided Anti-Tank Missiles taking out Zaku IIs if I remember correctly. Next is an Armored element of I remember...9 or 13 (some odd number) Type 61A4s and A5s taking out three Zaku IIs, one of them being an 'ace' pilot unit. Third one is a tracked-mech basically being used as suicide units.

Oh, edit: MS Igloo OVAs are set in Universal Century/One Year War era. The Igloo OVAs are from the Federation's point of view. Which is...way more impressive story-wise/plot-wise considering what they had to work with until they developed their own mecha.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The only thing I can really think of that Mechs have in combat over tanks is the ability to sidestep. Even with a higher profile, not 50 feet or whatever but maybe 10-12 feet, they'd be harder to hit, simply because like a boxer they can slip punches/ incoming fire, with slight movements laterally.

You want something with legs that can hide from fire, I'd go for a spider/scorpion shape over a humanoid one. A much lower profile for the same mass, more legs that it can lose and still function, maybe an expendable/extendable weapon pod it can stick up over cover (the "scorpion" part)". Although if I was going that route I'd make it a robot or drone, not a vehicle. And smallish; human size or less.

And forget about dodging punches, it's gunfire you need to worry about. And also forget about "slight" movements doing anything with something so large and so heavy.

As for making walkers plausible in-universe, you can make just about anything work with enough handwaving. For example, they could be lost technology; something like cargo loaders or sports vehicles built by an ancient factory that no one can reprogram to build something better designed for warfare, and made of supermaterials & power sources better than anyone now alive can design. So they just bolt on armor to protect the driver and what weapons they can make onto the things; sort of like a Third World "technical". You could pull off black powder cannon armed mechs or even melee weapon armed ones in that scenario depending on how primitive the locals are. It gets around the question of why they don't build tanks instead; they don't know how.

[harbringer]

In real world applications Mecha have extremely specialised and niche applications (a japanese rescue vehicle for example) planned. No one really expects in this world we live in mecha taking over the role of tanks, just as ogres aren't planned any time soon. For sheer cool factor I like them after all the AT-TE and AT-AT are essentially mecha, that said you can up armour tanks to the same or better standard, may be able to build in stealth abilities and provide a more stable gunnery platform. In real life do they make sense? no not really but I dont think anyone really claims they do despite Urban conflict being one area they have suggested. However in battletech and other universes they are used they are within that place and time useful (to argue otherwise is to discard suspension of disbelief after all). Power armour in its basic forms is being tested and developed now for loading vehicles (imagine one man rearming a tank in 2 minutes for example on how this is seen as useful) long term the stormtrooper style combat suits is more likely simply from the perspective that it is expanding survivability and awareness to the minimum currently required. Long term would we see mini mecha like terminator dreadnought suits ... possibly but you would have to solve a lot of problems to make them practical, I honestly expect combat droids before that.

Armoured verhicles will persist into the future in one form or other - maybe as super heavy airborne combat transports or something else like the robot tank idea. The ability to project power over an area while being immune to most small arms is simply to useful to ignore. Power armour might become like in starship troopers the ultimate expression of this or perhaps like in bab 5 where the soldiers go off to make an assault using gunships in the role. Then again maybe the tank will simply try to provide better mobility with fuel cells or something similar better fire power perhaps with a metal storm style gun but otherwise remain a tracked heavy armoured vehicle. That's the problem with crystal ball gazing . Im sure others can better address the engineering issues.

[Vendetta]

In real world applications Mecha have extremely specialised and niche applications (a japanese rescue vehicle for example) planned.

Although that rescue vehicle actually has treads.

[spaceviking]

How about the use of mecha as occupation forces? Obviously a massive mech would have the same limitations as a tank in an urban environment, but a 10 foot tall mech would have some advantages. It has the obvious intimidation factor for the populace, and likely immune to small arms fire and less venerable to improvised explosives. Assuming it can crouch it may be able to enter home and buildings when the need arises, though I’m not sure how light it would have to be to make it to the second story/ not always end up in the basement.

[Lord of the Abyss]

There's always the explanation that "when Emperor Palpatine says he wants giant walking war machines, you damned well build him giant walking war machines." I've often thought that explained why the Star Wars Empire attacked Hoth with walkers that could be taken out by a snowspeeder with a cable; they were the creation of political leaders who cared more for intimidation factor and coolness than practicality, and when the Emperor or Moff tells you to build something like that you don't tell them it's a bad idea unless you want to end up as rancor chow.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm sure there was a short story, possibly from the "Tales from ..." series, that addressed that. Some mid-ranking officer at the facility where the AT-AT was developed pointed out that they'd be vulnerable to being tripped up. The General in charge said, "who'd ever think of doing that? What nonsense!" and shipped the guy off to Star Wars' equivalent of a radar station in Antarctica ... then Hoth happened.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

There are some inescapable issues with larger mechs, namely their size and weight. Mobile Suits from the Gundam franchise, for example, average between 17 and 21 metres tall and generally weigh from 50-80 metric tons, depending on the precise model and whether its fully loaded or not (getting shorter and lighter over the UC). This is quite remarkable considering that the M1 Abrams weighs around 60 metric tons. The disparity is usually handwaved with the use of exotic alloys and composites, which is believable only up to a point.

The simple fact is that a mecha of that size is going to be big and not all that fast. As such, the only way they can realistically make a contribution (which they must in order to justify the expense of designing and building them) is to act as a walking artillery battery. Something that big could carry a lot of weaponry, so pile on the weapons. Pile on the armour and defensive systems too, because it will be seen and it will be shot-at. In other words, build something like a Warhound Titan. Weighing in at a more believable 410 metric tons, its hunched profile and digitigrade legs offer superior weight distribution to humanoid models. It doesn't skimp on armour or firepower either. I would have added a vulcan cannon or two, and/or an APS, but not a bad mech all things considered.

So we come to the big question regarding mechs. It is, in a word, why? Of course it would be possible to design and build a big mecha, but why invest the necessary time and resources to do so? One of the biggest arguments against mecha is the fact that military organisations tend to be conservative when it comes to weapons. They stick to what they know works, so a new innovation will have to be pretty good in order to impress. This in turn leads to a possible reason why mecha might come into existence: Military Keynesianism. Arms contractors would probably be happy to design and build a big mecha, so long as the government in question is willing to pay for it.

If it's a feasible mecha we want, then we have to think small, no more than 2-3 metres tall, something on the line of a battlesuit. To get around the objections already listed on this thread, size and weight have to be kept down. Less weight makes traversing tricky terrain easier, and lower profile makes it a harder target, also allowing for better use of cover. A battlesuit could work, but because of the conservatism I mentioned before, its best chance of existence is Military Keynesianism or some other entity (rising power, non-state actor, etc) seeking an asymmetric approach.

[Jusu]

If it's a feasible mecha we want, then we have to think small, no more than 2-3 metres tall, something on the line of a battlesuit. To get around the objections already listed on this thread, size and weight have to be kept down. Less weight makes traversing tricky terrain easier, and lower profile makes it a harder target, also allowing for better use of cover. A battlesuit could work, but because of the conservatism I mentioned before, its best chance of existence is Military Keynesianism or some other entity (rising power, non-state actor, etc) seeking an asymmetric approach.

So, why not just make thousands of cheaper powered armor that augments an infantryman's strength and load bearing capability rather than creating an armored suit meant to be 'piloted' by a few hundred? A mech like that would have a better market in deep-sea divers using hard diving suits. But that's just me.

Might be an anime, and specifically, a mecha fan, but I still don't see how it'll replace some infantry sergeant with nothing but his wits, rifle, and equipment...or a 60-ton tank.

[Simon_Jester]

The only role I can imagine large (significantly bigger than human) walkers operating in would be as artillery platforms for kiloton-range direct fire energy weapons. In that situation, you need long lines of sight, which means you actually get some slight advantage out of making your vehicle tall. In principle, what you want is a situation where letting the enemy in range of your Titans* also put them in range of the Titan's weapons, and the Titan is far more protected than they are.

Even this is a questionable proposition, because your superheavy walker is going to be taking fire from massed artillery and everything up to cruise missiles, along with the enemy's heavy direct fire energy weapons. If it isn't practical to up-armor a Titan to the point where it can handle that kind of fire, this won't work.

*Since 40k titans are the closest I've seen to this design concept being implemented in fiction

The only thing I can really think of that Mechs have in combat over tanks is the ability to sidestep. Even with a higher profile, not 50 feet or whatever but maybe 10-12 feet, they'd be harder to hit, simply because like a boxer they can slip punches/ incoming fire, with slight movements laterally. That and in urban combat they have a much smaller turn radius than a tank would, but again, that's one that's more like a Locust from BT, small by the standards of Mechs, and able to use buildings as cover.

The problem is that they can't see enemy fire coming (artillery shells are too fast to see), the cover in question isn't significantly tougher than they are (tanks drive through buildings on a regular basis), and designing them with omnidirectional knee and hip joints that make sidestepping possible is challenging.

[Sea Skimmer]

The only thing I can really think of that Mechs have in combat over tanks is the ability to sidestep. Even with a higher profile, not 50 feet or whatever but maybe 10-12 feet, they'd be harder to hit, simply because like a boxer they can slip punches/ incoming fire, with slight movements laterally.

Kind of like how infantry routinely dodge sniper fire? Except now against projectiles that come in twice as fast and are far more easily made guided then a mecha is to build at all?

That and in urban combat they have a much smaller turn radius than a tank would, but again, that's one that's more like a Locust from BT, small by the standards of Mechs, and able to use buildings as cover.

A tank can turn within its own length in a smooth motion. A mecha trying to turn within its own length would have to slowly shuffle its feet around to do that.

[Temujin]

How about the use of mecha as occupation forces? Obviously a massive mech would have the same limitations as a tank in an urban environment, but a 10 foot tall mech would have some advantages. It has the obvious intimidation factor for the populace, and likely immune to small arms fire and less venerable to improvised explosives. Assuming it can crouch it may be able to enter home and buildings when the need arises, though I’m not sure how light it would have to be to make it to the second story/ not always end up in the basement.

Well an armored vehicle, even a small one, can essentially have the same effect; including the intimidation factor. They don't always have to be MBTs.

If your going that small your essentially just using powered armor; and any Mech larger than powered armor will be just as vulnerable to an ambush in an urban setting as an AFV, most likely more so with the ability to trip them up.

As for sending them into buildings, unless its steel and concrete construction, you most assuredly will be tearing through the floorboards.

[Temujin]

So, why not just make thousands of cheaper powered armor that augments an infantryman's strength and load bearing capability rather than creating an armored suit meant to be 'piloted' by a few hundred? A mech like that would have a better market in deep-sea divers using hard diving suits. But that's just me.

Might be an anime, and specifically, a mecha fan, but I still don't see how it'll replace some infantry sergeant with nothing but his wits, rifle, and equipment...or a 60-ton tank.

There's actually some atmospheric diving suits that already are reminiscent of powered armor. I believe an older model made an appearance in one of the Bond films.

[Oskuro]

You want something with legs that can hide from fire, I'd go for a spider/scorpion shape over a humanoid one. A much lower profile for the same mass, more legs that it can lose and still function, maybe an expendable/extendable weapon pod it can stick up over cover (the "scorpion" part)".

You mean like the movie version of Scorponok? Man, that scene was cool, specially when the army gets its shit together.

[Jusu]

So, why not just make thousands of cheaper powered armor that augments an infantryman's strength and load bearing capability rather than creating an armored suit meant to be 'piloted' by a few hundred? A mech like that would have a better market in deep-sea divers using hard diving suits. But that's just me.

Might be an anime, and specifically, a mecha fan, but I still don't see how it'll replace some infantry sergeant with nothing but his wits, rifle, and equipment...or a 60-ton tank.

There's actually some atmospheric diving suits that already are reminiscent of powered armor. I believe an older model made an appearance in one of the Bond films.

Aye, was actually thinking of those...and how World War Z described underwater zombie fighting. >.>;;

[takemeout_totheblack]

I always liked how Armored Trooper VOTOMS handled the situation

The Mech: most commonly used is the Scopedog, it's a little under 4 meters tall and can be outfitted with anti-armor guns, giant bazookas, missile pods, and 30mm assault cannons. It uses the walking function for difficult terrain too steep, rocky, or unstable to safely traverse with other vehicles. However, it also has a propulsion mechanism that allows it to move in any direction at high speed, making it able to strafe attack and evade fire. The Scopedog is fully pressurized so it can be outfitted with a thruster assembly and fight in space, a water jet to fight under the water, or simply fight somewhere inhospitable to normal infantry. It has a rotary three-sight visual system allowing for thermal vision, sniper functions, enhanced visual display, and night-vision; all of which are fed into the pilots display goggles. The on-board computer records all of the pilots movements so that they may create a combat subroutine for future use, this way the pilot can simply activate a command and the suit will automatically perform the appropriate movements.

VOTOMS are apparently cheap to mass produce and are usually deployed in vast numbers (100s to 1000s or 10,000s) they are no less vulnerable than a tank, are more versatile, equally fast, and carry quite a bit of firepower. Also they have some kind of 'power-punch' thing that allows them to punch tanks and other suits to death. Awesome.

Mechas such as Gundams and Macross style vehicles are pretty impractical due to their size, I think power armor or greatly scaled down mechs like VOTOMS are more appropriate on the battlefield.

[Jusu]

I always liked how Armored Trooper VOTOMS handled the situation

*snip*

Mechas such as Gundams and Macross style vehicles are pretty impractical due to their size, I think power armor or greatly scaled down mechs like VOTOMS are more appropriate on the battlefield.

I actually found the Anime version of Starship Troopers. They don't look like gorillas, but they're damn interesting. Unfortunately the show did a few things differently from the book, but better than the movies. I think they're as close as possible to what we can expect PA or Mecha to fall under, besides the ones from VOTOMS.

Edit: Found the scene.

[Lord of the Abyss]

You want something with legs that can hide from fire, I'd go for a spider/scorpion shape over a humanoid one. A much lower profile for the same mass, more legs that it can lose and still function, maybe an expendable/extendable weapon pod it can stick up over cover (the "scorpion" part)".

You mean like the movie version of Scorponok? Man, that scene was cool, specially when the army gets its shit together.

I never saw the Transformers movies actually.

[Ford Prefect]

Its been a long while since I saw the original Gundam, but I thought that one of the major offensives by the Earth forces that led to a decisive Zeon defeat pitted conventional armour against Zeon mechs? Of course, I believe that happened off screen.

Strictly speaking the Federation won the war on Earth through the precise application of thousands and thousands of tanks. They didn't actually have GMs until November in the original series (though later OVAs tended to give them Mobile suits earlier than that). It tends to get easily glossed over because MSG is a show about giant robots.

[adam_grif]

How about the use of mecha as occupation forces? Obviously a massive mech would have the same limitations as a tank in an urban environment, but a 10 foot tall mech would have some advantages. It has the obvious intimidation factor for the populace, and likely immune to small arms fire and less venerable to improvised explosives. Assuming it can crouch it may be able to enter home and buildings when the need arises, though I’m not sure how light it would have to be to make it to the second story/ not always end up in the basement.

2 meter high, remote piloted robots would do better than this. They're roughly human sized (a tall human at least), but would be much tougher to put down, and killing one doesn't actually kill the pilot. Terminators are pretty intimidating, yes?

Even this is a questionable proposition, because your superheavy walker is going to be taking fire from massed artillery and everything up to cruise missiles, along with the enemy's heavy direct fire energy weapons. If it isn't practical to up-armor a Titan to the point where it can handle that kind of fire, this won't work.

If you have a 40 meter robot with kilotonne range weapons, that's the kind of things that's going to attract tactical nuclear cruise missiles like moths to the flame. You know, assuming regular ones won't kill it because it's got magitech armor or shields or something.

When it boils down to it, in any kind of actual war, unless you're engaged in Operation CurbStomp against people 6 decades behind you, technologically, the only real protection is not getting hit. Armor won't save you if they deploy the right weapons. And against such foes, these kinds of things just aren't needed.

VOTOMS are apparently cheap to mass produce and are usually deployed in vast numbers (100s to 1000s or 10,000s) they are no less vulnerable than a tank, are more versatile, equally fast, and carry quite a bit of firepower.

See, being cheap, fast, and as protected as a tank are exactly the things that are impossible about them

[takemeout_totheblack]

Are you talking RL or theoretically, grif? Because VOTOMS are actually quite small in relation to other mecha series, less than 4 meters tall as opposed to 20m or 30m in others.

[takemeout_totheblack]

whoops, hit the send button too early
Anyway, the VOTOMS are actually pretty good when it comes to rationalizing all the inherent problems with mecha, such as the high profile (they're short little bastards) the actual speed problems that would result (their skating mechanisms can get them going as fast a 60mph I think) and weight (low weight and big feet) it actually seems to cover the bases as far as mecha problems go.

[adam_grif]

Uh, both? A 4 meter robot won't be as sluggish as some, but it still won't be outpacing an Abrams, nor will it's mechanical complexity lead to being cheap, nor will it be able to shrug off much firepower.

[Samuel]

I'm sure there was a short story, possibly from the "Tales from ..." series, that addressed that. Some mid-ranking officer at the facility where the AT-AT was developed pointed out that they'd be vulnerable to being tripped up. The General in charge said, "who'd ever think of doing that? What nonsense!" and shipped the guy off to Star Wars' equivalent of a radar station in Antarctica ... then Hoth happened.

Yep. He ends up on Tatonnie and is the stormtrooper who shots his officer in the back. Apparently brutally murdering civilians was not what he joined up for. Aside from making it a small universe, the idea of hunkering down when under air attack is a good one.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Uh, both? A 4 meter robot won't be as sluggish as some, but it still won't be outpacing an Abrams, nor will it's mechanical complexity lead to being cheap, nor will it be able to shrug off much firepower.

As far as military-modern* HEAT rounds go, neither can an Abrams. See, the idea behind most armored vehicles isn't the vehicle surviving, it's the people inside surviving, in that respect the Abrams excel! The tank still gets FUBAR'd by an RPG-7 rocket, but the crew has a good chance of surviving.

There's some spiel about VOTOMS using a sort of synthetic muscle-like substance and an alternative (and explosive) recyclable fuel that removes most of the more complicated aspects of getting a humanoid robot to work (hydraulics, servos, other such clunky tech) Also, as you seem to ignore me every time I point it out, this example showcases a vehicle capable of significant agility and speed (capable of sidestepping missile barrages and enemy fire) when using its 'skating mechanism'. Since VOTOMS are sometimes seen used in tandem with MBTs and other such hardware I don't see them as replacement all-in-one vehicle that most mechas are made out to be, rather they are heavy support vehicles designed to either escort specialized armor or fight where other armor can't.

*By this I mean the kind of ordinance you'd see exchanged between similarly modernized forces