Tailored IFVs/MBTs

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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by adam_grif »

Ford Prefect wrote:I have to be honest guys, the level of invective coming up over an alien which can take .50 BMG and run at 120km/h is slightly overblown for a board which generally accepts Star Wars as having ray guns that rate in the hundreds or thousands of gigatons and engines that propell million ton starships at thousands of gees. Maybe lighten up a little? It's much gauranteed that almost all of you accept something which is far more unreasonable than this.
The SW silliness is mainly the result of the people making the universe having no fucking clue about just how ridiculous the kind of power they were throwing around was. It wasn't George Lucas going "I want 200 GT lasers as standard on ships!" it was Lucas going "they can blow up asteroids". Then the effects guys control the scaling and so on. Too many chefs and all that. The crazy firepower calcs are done in retrospect.

Yes, SW and shit are more stupid and unreasonable on an objective basis, but we at least might be able to force this guy down to a more reasonable level for things if we try hard enough. :)
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Ford Prefect »

I'd be more generous if I actually thought 'dude runs fast and has a .50 BMG equivalent ray gun' was actually unreasonable. It's not exactly FORCE: Ground or anything.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Ghost Rider »

adam_grif wrote:Yes, SW and shit are more stupid and unreasonable on an objective basis, but we at least might be able to force this guy down to a more reasonable level for things if we try hard enough. :)
So what exactly is reasonable level? If the idjit in question is using the real world as a basis, then sure this shit is insane. If he's using it in his own fantastical universe, and has revealed nothing more then this...what the fuck is unreasonable about it?

Really, again the OP is making the same problem many posters do around here. Presenting something fantastical to a bunch of people who masturbate furiously to one up each other in a circle spank of what is realistic without actually asking what else is there to said universe being presented. At least with avianfucktard you got to see he had nothing working, but to assume that everyone is the same mold is as bad as any other blanket assumption.

But continue because we need to add to the grand total of slamming the submit button furiously.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Shannon wrote: Population is critical for the humans as these aliens far outnumber them. The strategic situation is that life on Earth has been completely wiped out. As far as the aliens are concerned, all that is left is mopping up. There is one major human world left, but it has far lower population density (only about 1 billion at most, I have to work on that cos some of that is refugees). The humans can't afford to let the aliens find this world, so their battles take place as far away as possible. Thus the need for an AFV - the humans make planned strikes when they're able and they need their soldiers to come back alive to build the experience base of their forces, hence the OP.
That sounds like the humans need absolute utter firepower then, and would use nuclear weapons on everything they can. They've got no reason not too when they are facing an enemy already bent on genocide.

At that point raiding is unlikely to involve tanks. The question basically being, what damage to the enemy are tanks going to inflict on the enemy that will matter? It doesn't do you any good, in terms of preserving that one human planet to show up, defeat a bug armored division in a force on force battle, and then leave. I can see them being used heavily for defending outposts, but the offensive value seems pretty slim unless the humans grow strong enough to take and hold new worlds.

In contrast a small low profile special forces landing on an enemy planet could setup nuclear cruise missiles, and blow the enemy advanced base away without coming anywhere near it. Of course you could also just release nukes or bombard from aircraft or orbit depending on how the enemy defenses are structured. If you sent in a tank, it would only be to lob nuclear shells at the enemy, allowing a single tank to wipe out a base or major industrial facility from 20km away.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Coyote »

Ford Prefect wrote:I have to be honest guys, the level of invective coming up over an alien which can take .50 BMG and run at 120km/h is slightly overblown for a board which generally accepts Star Wars as having ray guns that rate in the hundreds or thousands of gigatons and engines that propell million ton starships at thousands of gees. Maybe lighten up a little? It's much gauranteed that almost all of you accept something which is far more unreasonable than this.
Maybe so, but the notion of "horses" that could just shrug off anything short of antitank weapons was a bit much. I think that I, at least, am still thinking of avianmosquito's stuff and therefore a bit quick to criticize. But, yeah, as long as we don't get into "harmless headshots" and pregnant 10-year-olds I'll be more open minded. :D
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Starglider »

Ford Prefect wrote:I have to be honest guys, the level of invective coming up over an alien which can take .50 BMG and run at 120km/h is slightly overblown for a board which generally accepts Star Wars as having ray guns that rate in the hundreds or thousands of gigatons and engines that propell million ton starships at thousands of gees.
We call those stupidly unrealistic science fantasy as well. At least I do. It's still more acceptable because you can assume that it works on a combination of extremely exotic materials and force fields, to handle the incredible energy densities. Biology isn't like that; it's fundamentally stuck with fragile protein catalysts, doing everything in a solution of lukewarm water, diffusive transport, no compartmentalisation of cell functions etc etc. Things made out of meat can't even use metallic conductors for nerves, never mind exotic high-energy processes. Genetic engineering is unlikely to get you more than a factor of two improvement in all-around capability, although it can optimise specific areas.

Those limits don't apply to things made out of nanomachinery, completely different chemistry (e.g. some sort of living crystal structure), or which rely on magic (either literal, including 'the force', or effective magic such as proteins that exploit miraculous made up 'quantum' physics).
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Shannon »

Sorry I've been slow to respond - I intended to do so last night, but my laptop decided that I really didn't need to use the 'e', 'd' and 'c' keys. As a result I can't even access my home email account to send my notes to my work account to post here (I'm on a break at work right now). Unfortunately I have a client to see in about 10 minutes so I'll type what I can remember.

As already stated, the aliens, who go by the name Kracksen, use magitech. The Kracksen are not my own original idea. They were created by a friend of mine about 20 years ago during a roleplaying session that he was running using the old Marvel Super Heroes game. He only provided a brief background for them, which I've been trying to flesh out. The first posts I made re the Kracksen (who were then unnamed) were made in Fantasy in the link given at the start of this thread. I will be the first one to agree that this race is fantastical; the only reason I posted in SF was because I wanted to talk about the aforementioned IFV/MBT designs that could be used to fight them. I hope that makes sense. If a mod thinks that this discussion would now be better placed in Fantasy, then by all means please move it. I accept that I have contributed to the lack of clarity in this discussion in SF.

In the game, the Kracksen sent an advance agent to Earth, one of their generals (who had the attributes already described in this thread plus a bit more intelligence). By act of plot he ended up on our side and aided us against his Queen, who was approaching Earth in one of their smaller warships (a frigate IIRC). Anyway, we came very close to losing Earth when the Queen decided to set off the ship's autodestruct - our GM decided that it could kill everything on Earth (!) which I personallly thought was OTT, but hey, that's just me.

In the end we won, but later on I got thinking - what if we lost? What would we as survivors (assuming we survived) do? And where did these Kracksen guys come from anyway? How did they get magitech? What was their motivation? How would such a race develop? What effect would magitech have on their society? How would you fight them without superpowers?

Hence the inquiry concerning using conventional/future weapons to fight them.

That's all I have time for now and it doesn't go into any of the background I have come up with, but it should give you an idea of where I'm coming from. These ideas have been germinating for a while. I don't want the Kracksen to be one or two dimensional alien villains.

BTW, I don't need to be 'forced' down to reasonable levels - I am quite willing to accept ideas which are more 'reasonable', within the requirements of the setting - it still has to be consistent, after all. I want to keep a fantastical feel to this - it is at best space opera - but I also want to know what chance regular men and women would have, properly equipped.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Ford Prefect »

Starglider wrote:We call those stupidly unrealistic science fantasy as well. At least I do. It's still more acceptable because you can assume that it works on a combination of extremely exotic materials and force fields, to handle the incredible energy densities.
You realise that saying 'it's okay, total magic will make it work' doesn't actually damage my point? I mean, honestly 'dude runs fast' is pretty obviously more reasonable than 'machine produces fifty thousand megatons of waste heat every second and just handwaves it away'. Even if you have to invoke pure magic for both, guess which one takes less.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Norade »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Starglider wrote:We call those stupidly unrealistic science fantasy as well. At least I do. It's still more acceptable because you can assume that it works on a combination of extremely exotic materials and force fields, to handle the incredible energy densities.
You realise that saying 'it's okay, total magic will make it work' doesn't actually damage my point? I mean, honestly 'dude runs fast' is pretty obviously more reasonable than 'machine produces fifty thousand megatons of waste heat every second and just handwaves it away'. Even if you have to invoke pure magic for both, guess which one takes less.
Given that we could do something on those energy scales with M/AM reactions I wouldn't be too quick to say all of SW is pure Magitech. Especially if as posited here waste heat is directed out as neutrinos.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Ford Prefect »

I'm seriously having trouble responding to that post, because it is amazingly dumb. I just ... wow. Fucking wow.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Coyote »

Plus, their teleportation seems to be done in a mass, and controlled by the 'queen'. Once the humans have seen it done a few times, they'll have an idea about the range of teleportation and the typical dispersal, so they can pre-set minefields in likely teleportation areas.

It would end up being more devastating, really-- in a typical minefield, only the leading edge of the battle formation detonates the mines; the ones behind them scatter. But when the queen teleports the mass to the nearest open field, the whole group of them plops down in the middle (I'm assuming they try to avoid teleporting into thick woods and other obstacles) and there's an equal chance that all of them will be blasted.

People can become good at funneling attackers into narrow, confined areas-- these centauroids can be drawn into a canyon and then become prime targets for cluster bomblets. The aforementioned gas is also a good idea.
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Tasoth »

Wouldn't some form of mobile artillery be useful? Given you figure out how to cut these things down in droves, you're going to create a mound of the dead that four legged, potentially hoofed animals have to negotiate over or around. So you'd create a knot in their offensive that would allow the dropping of short range artillery, like IFV mounted mortars, into this group.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Shannon »

Thanks, guys.

Destructionator: I'd already thought of the traps idea, but nothing so brilliantly simple as a sandy (or even rocky) desertscape or icefield (images of Hoth).

Coyote: Queens can do pinpoint teleports, and in my current scenario this has caused problems for ship to ship combat and ground combat. A MacGuffin in the story focuses on one of the humans working on a way to not just block the Kracksen's method of teleportation, but also redirect it into minefields. With ships and inside installations, to date, humans have had to rely on small compartments that Kracksen either can't 'port into or can't move around in because of their greater size (which can become inconvenient). Kracksen Queens will also teleport bombs into spaces that they can't teleport troops into, which has lead to human ships becoming very stealthy so as not to be detected and teleport-bombed in the first place and so on. When teleporting troops into a battle zone, Queens (who are experts at multitasking) tend to either do the 'mass attack' thing or teleport multiple squads into multiple postions in the rear to overwhelm defences.

Blocking/redirecting technology will of course change all that - it's just another way of funnelling, really.

Tasoth: That's partly why I started this thread in the first place. I figured that even with traps galore you'll still get survivors, particularly because of teleportation.

One scenario I have planned for the story is that the humans want to test the new teleport funnel. So they pick an out of the way world and lure in a Kracksen ship for ground assault (they have capship support to prevvent orbital bombardment). If all goes according to plan, the first wave of Kracksen gets redirected from their standard interior assault into a narrow box canyon or quarry and nuked with a nuclear mine. After that, if the queen starts teleporting her troops outside the range of the funnel in a dispersed pattern, it becomes a matter of bringing down those who don't make it through the minefields, pit traps, etc.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Shannon »

Ghetto Edit: The last sentence of my last post should read:

After that, if the queen starts teleporting her troops outside the range of the funnel in a dispersed pattern, it becomes a matter of bringing down those who do make it through the minefields, pit traps, etc
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Norade »

Ford Prefect wrote:I'm seriously having trouble responding to that post, because it is amazingly dumb. I just ... wow. Fucking wow.
Using current technology can we not make anti-matter? Assuming greater energy harvesting techniques could we not make enough to get terrific energy densities? Last I looked it is possible, if not practical to do these things. You just need to scale up the reaction until you get the desired energy. Granted that cooling it would be an issue, but if we have neutrino radiators such as those posited for SW then that would be closer to solved. So please show how that is more unbelievable than the first iterations of the OP's idea.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Ford Prefect »

See, that was even more exasperatingly dumb. The ability to freely convert gigatons of waste heat into neutrinos is magic. The ability to harness a triple digit gigaton energy release and use it to power anything other than an explosion is magic. That's the point.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by PeZook »

From what I see, defence won't be much of a problem: as Skimmer said, it's offence that matters for raiding. Except in ship-to-ship combat, since you need to get to your raiding spot without dying before you can unleash nuclear hell on those fuckers.

I personally don't find much trouble with them running absurdly fast: for fuck's sake, they get their calories magicked into their bodies :D

Just say they wear advanced armor and are routinely enhanced by cybernetics if you really want to keep their speed, though it's probably not that important to the story.

Also, I'm not sure you considered this, but humans should, first and foremost, kill the queens. One bullet to the head = enemy force starves to death. Hell, what about jamming their food-beamers? Specialized anti-food missiles/guided artillery shells with nuclear tips? :D

The Queens are probably emitting some serious radiation. We could exploit that to locate them and then saturate the general area with nukes.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Norade »

Ford Prefect wrote:See, that was even more exasperatingly dumb. The ability to freely convert gigatons of waste heat into neutrinos is magic. The ability to harness a triple digit gigaton energy release and use it to power anything other than an explosion is magic. That's the point.
Maybe, maybe not, we really don't know much about harnessing anti-mater and using it as a fuel yet so any assertions of what is and isn't magic when related to it are nothing more than unsupported BS. For all I know we could use fission to contain the initial reaction with a magnetic field and ten use the energy released from the M/AM reaction from there. However, that said, I don't know what we can do with it currently besides watch it evaporate swiftly shortly after being made so it may be less feasible than I might think. Even so, that is less fantastical to me than a horse sized being shrugging of tank shells and running at 160km/h.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Shannon »

From what I see, defence won't be much of a problem: as Skimmer said, it's offence that matters for raiding. Except in ship-to-ship combat, since you need to get to your raiding spot without dying before you can unleash nuclear hell on those fuckers.
Yup. As I said, that's a plot point.
I personally don't find much trouble with them running absurdly fast: for fuck's sake, they get their calories magicked into their bodies

Just say they wear advanced armor and are routinely enhanced by cybernetics if you really want to keep their speed, though it's probably not that important to the story.
No, it's not, which is why I wasn't stressing too much over it other than to handwave it by saying "its (actual) magic!" The Kracksen are meant to provide the background conflict to the story - it's the relationships between the characters (that develops over about 55 years) that I'm mainly concerned with. However, that doesn't mean that the Kracksen shouldn't make sense within the context of the story. Even if they are absurdly powerful in some ways, they still have some glaring weaknesses which mainly come to the fore when faced with an enemy with rough technological parity. Hence my original (mistaken) idea to post this in SF rather than Fantasy - I was interested in what technological means could/would be used to overcome such a foe.
Also, I'm not sure you considered this, but humans should, first and foremost, kill the queens. One bullet to the head = enemy force starves to death. Hell, what about jamming their food-beamers? Specialized anti-food missiles/guided artillery shells with nuclear tips?

The Queens are probably emitting some serious radiation. We could exploit that to locate them and then saturate the general area with nukes.
Yes, I did consider this and it's a part of the concept that I'm still ironing out. This is my current thinking:

The magical energy the Queens channel is not native to this universe. Sometime in the distant past, the Kracksen somehow acquired the ability to tap and channel it. It became their race's greatest strength - almost unlimited energy and no need to worry about sustenance ever again - but they became absolutely dependent on it, as noted above. Possibly because it's not native to this universe, this exotic energy, which humans call 'magic', is difficult to detect. That's not to say its impossible, and your idea of a food-beam homing missile is great.

The Kracksen are well aware that their weakness is their dependence on their Queens, so the Queens are extremely well-protected. The Queens never take the field in ground combat or even leave their ships. However, in order to support ground troops, a Queen cannot travel farther away than low orbit - doing so means condemning the troops to death via starvation, as well as the loss of power to weapons and such. As such, it is a priority for humans to locate and destroy Kracksen warships in the vicinity of a battle zone.

Each frigate is itself a self-contained Kracksen colony, with a Queen, warriors, engineers, servitors and so forth. However, the amount of energy one Queen can handle, while large, is limited and so ship-based colonies are limited in size. Larger warships will contain several colonies and thus several Queens, of which one will be preeminent. Ground-based colonies will be much larger because their Queens don't have to handle the energy requirements of interstellar travel and combat.

Of course, the Queens don't channel this much energy all the time; because the amount they can channel is limited by their own capacity to do so, they can store energy in capacitor analogues. However, the Queen must maintain control of the capacitors; if she dies, the energy is catastrophically released. This is because of its extrauniversal nature - the magical energy she channels requires a living mind to control it and transform it into applications, which, apart from the food-beam and a few other specialised applciations, are largely conventional.

Ships have a limited magical AI to assist the Queen, but Queens have become masters of multitasking because of the requirements placed upon them by their role. Distract them enough, with multiple threats for example, and their control starts to break down. Conversely, a Queen with few distractions is very dangerous indeed because she can channel all her attention and most of her discretionary energy into attack or defence or both.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Shannon »

Norade wrote:
a horse sized being shrugging of tank shells and running at 160km/h.
Um, no. That's not what I said. What I said was this:

Shannon wrote:
can reach speeds of 160kph+ on level ground. They are very resistant to kinetic energy weapons, able to shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry, and even then being hard to kill.
As a point of reference, dedicated antivehicle weaponry can be anything from handheld 12.7mm vehicle-stoppers and antimaterial rifles up to tank armament. And notice I said 'short of', which clearly means they can't shrug off tank shells. Why then do you state otherwise? Especially given subsequent discussion on this thread?

If you want to argue the point about how reasonable they are, go right ahead, even though I've been more than clear about the context. But please don't misquote me again.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Norade »

Shannon wrote:Norade wrote:
a horse sized being shrugging of tank shells and running at 160km/h.
Um, no. That's not what I said. What I said was this:

Shannon wrote:
can reach speeds of 160kph+ on level ground. They are very resistant to kinetic energy weapons, able to shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry, and even then being hard to kill.
As a point of reference, dedicated antivehicle weaponry can be anything from handheld 12.7mm vehicle-stoppers and antimaterial rifles up to tank armament. And notice I said 'short of', which clearly means they can't shrug off tank shells. Why then do you state otherwise? Especially given subsequent discussion on this thread?

If you want to argue the point about how reasonable they are, go right ahead, even though I've been more than clear about the context. But please don't misquote me again.
Sorry, I exaggerated a bit, but seeing as you're going and saying they're powered by magic I have no problem. However as a real creature, their original form struck me as harder to believe than a Star Wars ship if they were meant to be based on known physics.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by PeZook »

Shannon wrote:Even if they are absurdly powerful in some ways, they still have some glaring weaknesses which mainly come to the fore when faced with an enemy with rough technological parity. Hence my original (mistaken) idea to post this in SF rather than Fantasy - I was interested in what technological means could/would be used to overcome such a foe.
As others have noted, it's not really all that outlandish considering what sci-fi usually does. I mean, nBSG had freakin' angels and destiny and visions, yet a thread about it is usually placed in sci-fi forums :D

Besides, I like stories where magic interacts with technology. Mystery usually does a story good (unless the later reveal sucks dick, that is).
Shannon wrote:Yes, I did consider this and it's a part of the concept that I'm still ironing out. This is my current thinking:

The magical energy the Queens channel is not native to this universe. Sometime in the distant past, the Kracksen somehow acquired the ability to tap and channel it. It became their race's greatest strength - almost unlimited energy and no need to worry about sustenance ever again - but they became absolutely dependent on it, as noted above. Possibly because it's not native to this universe, this exotic energy, which humans call 'magic', is difficult to detect. That's not to say its impossible, and your idea of a food-beam homing missile is great.
Yeah, if it interacts with our universe, it's not really magic, just something we do not understand yet.
Shannon wrote:The Kracksen are well aware that their weakness is their dependence on their Queens, so the Queens are extremely well-protected. The Queens never take the field in ground combat or even leave their ships. However, in order to support ground troops, a Queen cannot travel farther away than low orbit - doing so means condemning the troops to death via starvation, as well as the loss of power to weapons and such. As such, it is a priority for humans to locate and destroy Kracksen warships in the vicinity of a battle zone.
Here's another thought: when you understand how the food-beam works, could you fuck with it? Like, say, releasing "poison" into the ether? How do Kracksen react to jamming? Could one hack a Queen? :D
Shannon wrote:Each frigate is itself a self-contained Kracksen colony, with a Queen, warriors, engineers, servitors and so forth. However, the amount of energy one Queen can handle, while large, is limited and so ship-based colonies are limited in size. Larger warships will contain several colonies and thus several Queens, of which one will be preeminent. Ground-based colonies will be much larger because their Queens don't have to handle the energy requirements of interstellar travel and combat.
As long as you're self-consistent about that and don't devolve into technobabble and infodumps during the story, you should be good.
Shannon wrote:Of course, the Queens don't channel this much energy all the time; because the amount they can channel is limited by their own capacity to do so, they can store energy in capacitor analogues. However, the Queen must maintain control of the capacitors; if she dies, the energy is catastrophically released. This is because of its extrauniversal nature - the magical energy she channels requires a living mind to control it and transform it into applications, which, apart from the food-beam and a few other specialised applciations, are largely conventional.
You know, as a human, I'd love to dissect some of those capacitors. Their construction is bound to tell us a lot about the food-beam and how it works.
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Night_stalker
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Night_stalker »

Regarding the OP, you could try taking a M113 and have a Phalanx CIWS mounted in place of the main gun, and use the troop space for ammo.

For a tank, try a 9K22 Tunguska with extra armor, and maybe a pair of 30mil cannons in place of the usual guns, and instead of the regular 9M311 missiles, arm it with some L6 Wombats.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by PeZook »

How is a Tunguska in any way comparable to a tank? :D
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: Tailored IFVs/MBTs

Post by Night_stalker »

My point was that a tank fires too slow to hit the Mary Sueish race capable of running over 160 KPH. We need a chasse dedicated to targeting high speed objects, hence the Tungkuska.
If Dr. Gatling was a nerd, then his most famous invention is the fucking Revenge of the Nerd, writ large...

"Lawful stupid is the paladin that charges into hell because he knows there's evil there."
—anonymous

"Although you may win the occasional battle against us, Vorrik, the Empire will always strike back."
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