Forerunners Vs. the Galactic Empire

[adam_grif]

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to the Death Star's firepower?

Unknown.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to sustained high-gigaton, low Terraton bombardment over a 24 hour or longer period? (aka a Base Delta Zero)

Unknown.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stop a Force Storm?

Unknown.

Do they Forerunners have anything that can crack a planetary shield?

Unknown.

No?

Then they lose, and they lose HARD.

Impossible to say.

They have no knowledge of the Death Star's design flaws, so they can't 'exhaust port' it. The Empire will be able to pick the Forerunners apart quite easily.

Sure, if you assume that for the value "unknown", we substitute "no".

Imperial ships are probably faster (Star Wars hyperdrive is around 10,000 light years per hour, maybe higher). Which means the Imperial fleet can hunt them down easily.

UNKNOWN.

The Forerunners have minimum support infrastructure, the Empire has a Heavily Industrialized galaxy. (Planetary Factories are actually somewhat common in the Empire.)

UNKNOWN.

And most importantly; the Empire has no problems with wiping out entire species, planets, or even sectors to make a point.

And the forerunner have no problems destroying all life in a galaxy to win a war.

It could get messy for the Empire, but the Forerunners would get their asses stomped six-ways from their holy day, and Palpatine's scientist has some new technology to play with.

UNKNOWNNNNN.

The default position with so many unkowns is not "the emprire wins", it's "this debate is unquantifiable".

[Jake]

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to the Death Star's firepower?

The forerunners arrive a month before A New Hope. Since they leave their shield worlds and Halos behind I'm guessing they will attempt to rebuild their infrastructure before they launch any attack. As a result, it is more than likely that the rebel alliance will have destroyed the death star long before they launch an attack and the empire learns of their presence. For the sake of debate, however, let’s assume that the empire builds another New Hope style death star before the forerunners reveal themselves. Now, the forerunners have shield worlds (worlds they create as refuge from the halo effect). In Halo, Ghosts of Onyx, Dr. Halsey describes the Onyx shield world as a dyson sphere that “resides in the center of the planet, encapsulated and protected by a slip space bubble of compressed dimensionality” ( p. 381). The protective effect of this slip space bubble is a explained earlier in the book, when several stasis pods using this technology containing Spartans are found. As explained by Dr. Halsey, “You could detonate a nuclear warhead on these pods and because the extruded slip space within is not in this dimension, there would be no effect to their contents”(337). So, any forerunner military force could simply use their shield worlds to protect themselves from a deathstar blast. Since they are in another dimension, the deathstar blast would have no effect.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to sustained high-gigaton, low Terraton bombardment over a 24 hour or longer period? (aka a Base Delta Zero)

Look at previous response. This also assumes that the ISD even makes it to the forerunner world (see my previous big post).

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stop a Force Storm?

Are you referring to the force storm that Palpatine lost control over and killed himself with at the battle of Pinnacle Base?

Do they Forerunners have anything that can crack a planetary shield?

The halo arrays killed all sentient life in the galaxy, including those in shielded warships. Also, planetary shields do not make a planet invincible. General Grievous landed his droid armies on Coruscant (which would certainly have a planetary shield). The empire landed forces on Hoth, to bypass and destroy echo base’s theater shield generator. Renegade squadron somehow bypassed the planetary shields to land on Endor.

[Srelex]

Just as a side-note, the Coruscant shield was lowered by sabotage (thanks to Sidious) and the rebels used the stolen Imperial shuttle to get by the Endor shield.

[Norade]

Just as a side-note, the Coruscant shield was lowered by sabotage (thanks to Sidious) and the rebels used the stolen Imperial shuttle to get by the Endor shield.

A stolen Imperial shuttle piloted by an ex-officer with a force sensitive which both Vader and Palpatine wanted on board. I doubt anybody else would have been able to pull it off.

Norade: According to the canon site invader Taz put up, the books are canon, albeit lower than the games. Is there anything in the games that contradicts my numbers? I don't think so considering I have played all of them quite a bit.

So you're going to pull the whole, it looks good to me argument without even attempting to do calculations on the attacks we see from Covenant craft. I'm going to finish this post now while I still can and see if I can find any in game examples of ship firepower.

[Norade]

According to the first scene from Halo 2 the Covenant had 750 ships when destroying reach, even if we assume that only one in five were needed to destroy reach they still need 150 craft to do the job a single star destroyer.

Watching in game scenes of the mac guns firing we can see that they're going nowhere near 0.4c so already we can toss the halopedias numbers right out the window. Evidence at 7:45 here. So you can cut the crap with the energy they're tossing around.

EDIT: Based on those numbers and being generous we can see that those shots move pass a ship in, being generous, a tenth of a second. Going with 1.2km ship lengths that gives us a speed of 12,000m/s or 1/25,000th the speed of light. A far cry from the 40% you claim.

[Srelex]

Are we sure those are MAC rounds? Couldn't they be missiles of some kind?

[Norade]

They're firing from the fore of the ship, the same spot the mac gun would fire from, and the humans have no reason not to to be fighting all out.

EDIT: Watching further we even see the effects coming from the ships weapons. Unless there is a better scene from ODST or Halo 3 those are cannon for the mac guns firing speed.

[Srelex]

In that case, I think we saw the MAC guns in operation in a manner more consistent with those speeds given in Halo 3--or am I misremembering?

[Norade]

In 'The Storm' we see them firing, but they are distinctly sub c speeds as we don't see the air aflame from friction, however we don't get a good angle to calculate speeds from in that scene. They are moving faster than the shots in Halo 2 however. I will look for more.

EDIT: In 'Flood Arrival' we see a Covenant ship penetrated hull to hull by a large but decidedly sub c flood asteroid.

[Norade]

Doing the calculations for the shots fired in the Halo 2 scene I linked we get 2.880E+10J which is less than a kiloton of power. Even if we assume that it is going 10 times faster in the Halo 3 scene that still only equates to 0.68 kilotons of power.

[Jake]

Norade: You can't tell whether the air around the projectile is aflame or not, since they only show a view of the guns firing, then a view of the aftereffects on the dreadnaught. They never actually show the space between the frigates and the dreadnaught while the MACs are firing. The scene is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1kf1tfzf3A. Also, in halo 2, you can watch the super MAC gun fire and you can not see the projectile at all. The scene is here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UToAdaNqPlA. Some UNSC ships use rail guns, maybe this is what you saw in your video.
And yes they had 750 ships, by why are you assuming that 1 in 5 were brought in for the sole purpose of glassing reach? I mean, maybe, just maybe the ships were needed to defeat the defenses of the most powerful naval fortress world in the UNSC.

[Norade]

Norade: You can't tell whether the air around the projectile is aflame or not, since they only show a view of the guns firing, then a view of the aftereffects on the dreadnaught.

Except that if they were really going that fast they would create a massive explosion as they make the air explode so fuck off you ignorant retard.

They never actually show the space between the frigates and the dreadnaught while the MACs are firing. The scene is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1kf1tfzf3A.

I made note of this scene already idiot and I'd love to see you use it to prove anything. A projectile going at far less than the speed of light could cross the gap in that time and for all we know sub kiloton munitions are enough to defeat Covenant vessels.

Also, in halo 2, you can watch the super MAC gun fire and you can not see the projectile at all. The scene is here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UToAdaNqPlA. Some UNSC ships use rail guns, maybe this is what you saw in your video.

Sorry, I can clearly see the projectile leaving the weapon, note the bright yellow particle wobbling away at sub lightspeedm that is the projectile. Also, why would the UNSC mount subkiloton scale weapons on their vessels if they needed their MAC guns to do real damage? It must be because sub kiloton blasts can defeat their armor.

EDIT: If you don't accept what I have shown as the projectile and we can't see it, and never see it strike, then it's also pointless to bring up given that we see other examples of much lower yields coming from the same weapons. The books when then ascribe a power to it that is contradicted by the visuals in Halo 3 which override the encyclopedia.

And yes they had 750 ships, by why are you assuming that 1 in 5 were brought in for the sole purpose of glassing reach? I mean, maybe, just maybe the ships were needed to defeat the defenses of the most powerful naval fortress world in the UNSC.

If it takes you 750 ships to defeat an enemy armed with subkiloton railguns, you lose, hard against any ship in Star Wars.

[Invader Taz]

...Scale up from reactor?

Again, another leap of logic given we have little to no hard proof of a Forerunner vessel that isn't over a few thousand years old.

How is this a leap in logic? Where do you suggest the Forerunner use for a power source besides reactor? Its the same thing IIRC that was done for the AToC ICS which was down scaling from the Death Star's reactor.

And then we assume all the rest of industry, military, and size.

Ability to build at least tens of thousands of 14 kilometer long Dreadnoughts and Keyships, build seven Halo rings, the Ark, and at least a single 150 million kilometer in diameter Dyson Sphere (pg. 380 of GoO) and shove it into a 2 meter Slipspace rift, the Outer Shield World shell made up of trillions of OVS and the Halo Wars type of shield world.

@Solauren

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to the Death Star's firepower?

The Slipspace rift at the center of a Shield World would take the shot.

For taking it out. they can open up dozens of Uncontrolled Slipspace Rifts and let the effect of the local laws of physics breaking down do the job for them.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to sustained high-gigaton, low Terraton bombardment over a 24 hour or longer period? (aka a Base Delta Zero)

Using the Halo Enc. for this debate has their most powerful form of combat drone using several Teratons of firepower when numbering in the hundreds and thousands. Dreadnoughts are far larger.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stop a Force Storm?

Outside of Slipspace no.

Do they Forerunners have anything that can crack a planetary shield

Pound on it until it gives out, jump under it via pin point Slipspace jump, or open up Uncontrolled Slipspace Rifts until the shield stops working from the lack of laws of physics being what they should.

@Jake

Invader Taz: If you want numbers from the halo encyclopedia only, is there somewhere online I can find them? It costs $30 and I don't really want to spend that.

I can get you you the quote, just a sec.

Page 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia

MAC GUN
The Magnetic Accelerator Cannon [MAC] Gun is one of the largest [and best] weapons the UNSC has in its fleet. Utilizing thousands of magnetic relays, it can ram a 600-ton projectile at nearly forty percent the speed of light. Able to pulverize most Covenant ships in one to three blasts, these weapons are mounted on all UNSC spaceships large enough to hold them. Unfortunately, MACs are slow to fire and, due to their size, require the entire ship on which they are built to maneuver in order to align fire. In the Fall of Reach, MAC gun barrages were able to destroy whole swaths of Covenant Destroyers, but in the time it took for them to reload, faster alien ships had already penetrated the Human defenses. Work is constantly underway in hopes of upgrading these weapons into faster, stronger, and more maneuverable models.

@Norade

According to the first scene from Halo 2 the Covenant had 750 ships when destroying reach, even if we assume that only one in five were needed to destroy reach they still need 150 craft to do the job a single star destroyer.

On page 8 of The Fall of Reach 36 Covenant Destroyers and Cruisers removed the oceans and atmosphere of an Earth like world in either 1-12-24 hours (exact time is disputed because it is mention that the atmosphere would not be gone until the next day even though we are given the time to vaporize the oceans at 1 hour).

And during the Battle of Reach the first attack wave was 314 Covenant ships with more arriving near the end of the battle after taking out the SMAC stations which in TFoR either fired a 3000 ton round at 4% the speed of light (50 Gigatons) or 40% the speed of light (5.8 Teratons).

In First Strike dozens of Covenant battleships are seen in low orbit but are holding back because there is a a Forerunner relic on Reach they need to recover first.

Watching in game scenes of the mac guns firing we can see that they're going nowhere near 0.4c so already we can toss the halopedias numbers right out the window. Evidence at 7:45 here. So you can cut the crap with the energy they're tossing around.

1. I already said for this debate we will scale from the Halo Enc.

2. The only ship to ever fire more than a single MAC round on a full charge is the PoA. Those are also clear rapid fire shot since a standard MAC round takes 30-60 seconds to reach full charge.

In 'The Storm' we see them firing, but they are distinctly sub c speeds as we don't see the air aflame from friction, however we don't get a good angle to calculate speeds from in that scene. They are moving faster than the shots in Halo 2 however. I will look for more.

It should be noted that the Portal may have been doing something to the UNSC ships since later we start to see them lose power.

EDIT: In 'Flood Arrival' we see a Covenant ship penetrated hull to hull by a large but decidedly sub c flood asteroid.

That scene makes not sense. First the Flood Pod was moving at several thousand kilometers per second given how far away High Charity was and yet it slowed down to several kilometers per second at the last instant. Next only a couple seconds after that one hit we see another one just bounce right off the prow. I chalk it up to either another Forerunner relic doing something or the giant Slipspace portal messing stuff up.

Also on the Halo 3 scene the frigates appear to use a rapid fire mode when we see them firing a couple times which farther supports these were not fully charged shots and the Portal was already doing something to them.

But as I already said for this debate we will scale from the firepower mention in the Halo Enc. and what the OVS did.

[Norade]

...Scale up from reactor?

Again, another leap of logic given we have little to no hard proof of a Forerunner vessel that isn't over a few thousand years old.

How is this a leap in logic? Where do you suggest the Forerunner use for a power source besides reactor? Its the same thing IIRC that was done for the AToC ICS which was down scaling from the Death Star's reactor.

Scaling from a single example isn't how things were done. In Star Wars we scaled from many things and found that such a scaling matches what we expected to see. We had calculations from asteroids and a planet blowing up to prove our points and these numbers just further confirmed them. Your universe of choice has pathetic firepower shown in the games and your books pull huge numbers from nowhere.

And then we assume all the rest of industry, military, and size.

Ability to build at least tens of thousands of 14 kilometer long Dreadnoughts and Keyships, build seven Halo rings, the Ark, and at least a single 150 million kilometer in diameter Dyson Sphere (pg. 380 of GoO) and shove it into a 2 meter Slipspace rift, the Outer Shield World shell made up of trillions of OVS and the Halo Wars type of shield world.

Show timescale for these projects please and thank you. Without knowing how much of a drain this was it is impossible to debate.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to the Death Star's firepower?

The Slipspace rift at the center of a Shield World would take the shot.

Please show it ever taking such a large blast before and show that they can open such a rift in time to matter.

For taking it out. they can open up dozens of Uncontrolled Slipspace Rifts and let the effect of the local laws of physics breaking down do the job for them.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to sustained high-gigaton, low Terraton bombardment over a 24 hour or longer period? (aka a Base Delta Zero)

Using the Halo Enc. for this debate has their most powerful form of combat drone using several Teratons of firepower when numbering in the hundreds and thousands. Dreadnoughts are far larger.

Given that fire power numbers from the main source are shown to be far less than that I would say that these numbers are a contradiction and must be tossed.

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stop a Force Storm?

Outside of Slipspace no.

Prove slip space can effec force lightning or any other SW based weapon. I would also like to see numbers for this device.

Do they Forerunners have anything that can crack a planetary shield

Pound on it until it gives out, jump under it via pin point Slipspace jump, or open up Uncontrolled Slipspace Rifts until the shield stops working from the lack of laws of physics being what they should.

Pound away with what, their kiloton weight attacks... you make me laugh.

No limits fallacy, please prove they these slip stream rifts can do anything against Star Wars shields.

Page 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia

MAC GUN
The Magnetic Accelerator Cannon [MAC] Gun is one of the largest [and best] weapons the UNSC has in its fleet. Utilizing thousands of magnetic relays, it can ram a 600-ton projectile at nearly forty percent the speed of light. Able to pulverize most Covenant ships in one to three blasts, these weapons are mounted on all UNSC spaceships large enough to hold them. Unfortunately, MACs are slow to fire and, due to their size, require the entire ship on which they are built to maneuver in order to align fire. In the Fall of Reach, MAC gun barrages were able to destroy whole swaths of Covenant Destroyers, but in the time it took for them to reload, faster alien ships had already penetrated the Human defenses. Work is constantly underway in hopes of upgrading these weapons into faster, stronger, and more maneuverable models.

Fancy quote, too bad the game can't back it up.

According to the first scene from Halo 2 the Covenant had 750 ships when destroying reach, even if we assume that only one in five were needed to destroy reach they still need 150 craft to do the job a single star destroyer.

On page 8 of The Fall of Reach 36 Covenant Destroyers and Cruisers removed the oceans and atmosphere of an Earth like world in either 1-12-24 hours (exact time is disputed because it is mention that the atmosphere would not be gone until the next day even though we are given the time to vaporize the oceans at 1 hour).

And during the Battle of Reach the first attack wave was 314 Covenant ships with more arriving near the end of the battle after taking out the SMAC stations which in TFoR either fired a 3000 ton round at 4% the speed of light (50 Gigatons) or 40% the speed of light (5.8 Teratons).[/quote]

Okay, so 36 hours to do what a single star destroyer can do in a day. As for the cannons I have evidence from the games, games overriding books in cannon, showing that there is nowhere near that kind of firepower being thrown around.

Watching in game scenes of the mac guns firing we can see that they're going nowhere near 0.4c so already we can toss the halopedias numbers right out the window. Evidence at 7:45 here. So you can cut the crap with the energy they're tossing around.

1. I already said for this debate we will scale from the Halo Enc.

Go fuck yourself, you don't set cannon for debates the owner of the source material does. Take you Darkstar style BS elsewhere.

2. The only ship to ever fire more than a single MAC round on a full charge is the PoA. Those are also clear rapid fire shot since a standard MAC round takes 30-60 seconds to reach full charge.

Those shots are still pathetically weak and if they can harm any ships in Haloverse it is proof they can't our even a fighter craft.

In 'The Storm' we see them firing, but they are distinctly sub c speeds as we don't see the air aflame from friction, however we don't get a good angle to calculate speeds from in that scene. They are moving faster than the shots in Halo 2 however. I will look for more.

It should be noted that the Portal may have been doing something to the UNSC ships since later we start to see them lose power.

Provide some evidence that the portal caused shit and would suddenly slow down the shots or concede. I don't take kindly to people pulling numbers out of their ass.

EDIT: In 'Flood Arrival' we see a Covenant ship penetrated hull to hull by a large but decidedly sub c flood asteroid.

That scene makes not sense. First the Flood Pod was moving at several thousand kilometers per second given how far away High Charity was and yet it slowed down to several kilometers per second at the last instant. Next only a couple seconds after that one hit we see another one just bounce right off the prow. I chalk it up to either another Forerunner relic doing something or the giant Slipspace portal messing stuff up.

Ext ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so either put up or concede. Your pet theories mean shit here.

Also on the Halo 3 scene the frigates appear to use a rapid fire mode when we see them firing a couple times which farther supports these were not fully charged shots and the Portal was already doing something to them.

Again provide proof, these shots seem consistent with the lame duck shots we see in Halo 2. It looks like your pet fan wank verse is in too deep.

But as I already said for this debate we will scale from the firepower mention in the Halo Enc. and what the OVS did.

As I said, you don't designate cannon policy so kindly fuck off.

[Invader Taz]

Scaling from a single example isn't how things were done. In Star Wars we scaled from many things and found that such a scaling matches what we expected to see. We had calculations from asteroids and a planet blowing up to prove our points and these numbers just further confirmed them.

If you go back you will see I put up two more quotes showing the firepower of OVS (though one did have the ship's own reactor doing the rest of the work).

Your universe of choice has pathetic firepower shown in the games and your books pull huge numbers from nowhere.

I'm not that big a Halo fan anymore. I've just about given up anymore on trying to keep anything consistent in this universe between canon tiers.

Show timescale for these projects please and thank you. Without knowing how much of a drain this was it is impossible to debate.

You'll have to give me a bit to find the Terminal entry but IIRC it was 40-20 years when towards the very end of the war.

Please show it ever taking such a large blast before and show that they can open such a rift in time to matter.

There is only the quote already mention that this things could take a nuke without noticing it because their in a comletely different dimension. Unless the DS can force it's way into Slipspace it can do nothing to the Dyson sphere inside. On time I'll have to look through the games at Slipspace portal openning times but I was talking about only the Shield World Slipspace rift.

Given that fire power numbers from the main source are shown to be far less than that I would say that these numbers are a contradiction and must be tossed.

And as the creator of this thread I decide what will be used for the scenario in question. I can set up different scenario that give both sides X firepower because I am the OP of this thread.

Prove slip space can effec force lightning or any other SW based weapon. I would also like to see numbers for this device.

I missread that as hiding in Slipspace. But Uncontrolled Slipspace Ruptures are weaponised space-time weapons that make the local laws of physics go crazy so it is likely something werid at the very least is going to happen with the Force storm.

Pound away with what, their kiloton weight attacks... you make me laugh.

Yeah because its not like the Keyship threaten to destroy High Charity by just attempting to leave via sub-light engines (Contact Harvest) or was able to power the entire station with only 10% of the output from the engines.

No limits fallacy, please prove they these slip stream rifts can do anything against Star Wars shields.

They break the local laws of physics near them. They have been observed in the Halo 3 Terminals to be able to destroy any Forerunner ships that got to close and even allowed Offensive Bias to throw around 37,000 ton Dreadnoughts like fighter craft.

Teminal Six, on Legendary difficulty, Halo 3:
05-032 abandoned the tactic of using derelict ships as cover after [72:S] - It seems that 52 core vessels lost to the ruptured fuel cells of derelict ships was lesson enough. Add another 608 lost to collision, point fire, structural failure due to inertial manipulation, and [slipstream space] induced discoherence and I now outnumber Mendicant [6:1].

In bold. Even if you don't accept that the local laws of physics breaking down will take out the shields I'm sure you don't mind the fact they can still completely bypass planetary shields via Slipspace.

Oh and they can force stars to go (super)nova as a standard tactic:

Terminal 2
It is my opinion that any system where there is evidence that the enemy has established a physical presence is lost and must be razed. This fleet currently retains the capacity to force premature stellar collapse; I advise that this be established as standard operating procedure for all compromised systems forthwith. We cannot fight this war by half measures if we intend to win.

The Halo Enc. says that it required a Battlegroup to force the star to go (super)nova.

Okay, so 36 hours to do what a single star destroyer can do in a day. As for the cannons I have evidence from the games, games overriding books in cannon, showing that there is nowhere near that kind of firepower being thrown around.

My thread. I dictate what we use for this scenario as the OP.

Go fuck yourself, you don't set cannon for debates the owner of the source material does. Take you Darkstar style BS elsewhere.

I started this fucking thread. I therefore have control in THIS THREAD to dictate what sources will be for the scenario in question (unless a mod tells me otherwise). I am not changing fucking canon at all. As the OP of this thread I hold the right within this thread to state what will be used unless there is rule I missed or was recently add that said that the OP can not set the scenario up using X can source for Y purpose within the thread.

Those shots are still pathetically weak and if they can harm any ships in Haloverse it is proof they can't our even a fighter craft.

The shots in Halo 3 are easily low megaton given the Keyship they are attacking is 14 kilometers high. Now if those had been fully charged shots which take 30-60 seconds it would either be 125 MT low end and 250 MT high end assuming nothing else is going on because of the Portal. This happens to fit nicely with the bulk of canon that ships accelerating across thousands of kilometers in combat and fighting at these ranges.

And don't give me any BS about the size of the Covenant ships because their beyond the fucking draw distance of the Halo 3 game engine.

Provide some evidence that the portal caused shit and would suddenly slow down the shots or concede. I don't take kindly to people pulling numbers out of their ass.

I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. I claim as seen later that the Portal was in some form draining power from the UNSC ships. I of course concede I can not prove this was happening before the effects really started but I do use it in an attempt to reconcile the games with the books for a more consistent universe.

Ext ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so either put up or concede. Your pet theories mean shit here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqfeJHsoQh4

So you haven't seen the scene in question I guess if you can't tell the 348 fucking kilometer in diameter station is several thousand kilometers away.

At 27-28 sec you see on the left side of the prow what appears to be another Flood pod simply bounce off without so much as fucking harming the paint.

Again provide proof, these shots seem consistent with the lame duck shots we see in Halo 2.

Standard charge time in the books is always 30-60 seconds. The only ship with the tech to fire more than a single full power shot at once was the PoA. Also their hardly consistent with these lame duck shots that also happen to be fired at targets BvR when the Prophet's fleet enter the Kill Zone.

It looks like your pet fan wank verse is in too deep.

I'm sorry but Halo is hardly my "fan wank verse". Try a universe called Invader Zim where civ craft the size of small cars cut open micro-dyson spheres large enough to hold the Earth with their side pods and have planet size ships that can ram through planets and stars after losing shields and take only damage to the paint job if you want the universe I use for "fan wank".

As I said, you don't designate cannon policy so kindly fuck off.

Point me to the fucking rule that saids so. Within this thread as the OP I can say what we will use for scenario fucking X. Unless a mod tells me otherwise kindly shut the fuck up.

[Norade]

Scaling from a single example isn't how things were done. In Star Wars we scaled from many things and found that such a scaling matches what we expected to see. We had calculations from asteroids and a planet blowing up to prove our points and these numbers just further confirmed them.

If you go back you will see I put up two more quotes showing the firepower of OVS (though one did have the ship's own reactor doing the rest of the work).

Doesn't really change the fact that you can't scale shit from it now does it?

Your universe of choice has pathetic firepower shown in the games and your books pull huge numbers from nowhere.

I'm not that big a Halo fan anymore. I've just about given up anymore on trying to keep anything consistent in this universe between canon tiers.

I care why? You're sure wanking it hard enough here...

Show timescale for these projects please and thank you. Without knowing how much of a drain this was it is impossible to debate.

You'll have to give me a bit to find the Terminal entry but IIRC it was 40-20 years when towards the very end of the war.

So it takes them 20-40 years to build them, in the same time if the Empire so chose it could, assuming no bottle necks, churn out at least a dozen DSII's as well as tons of other craft. Color me unimpressed.

Please show it ever taking such a large blast before and show that they can open such a rift in time to matter.

There is only the quote already mention that this things could take a nuke without noticing it because their in a comletely different dimension. Unless the DS can force it's way into Slipspace it can do nothing to the Dyson sphere inside. On time I'll have to look through the games at Slipspace portal openning times but I was talking about only the Shield World Slipspace rift.

Tactical nuke =/= Death Star laser. Of course you could just mine the damn exit and laugh as things try to come out of the tiny exit hole. That or it can simple fire at the point or points where there is a portal linking the sphere to the outside universe. It really won't matter though as that one device won't save jack shit besides itself and they don't exactly seem common.

Given that fire power numbers from the main source are shown to be far less than that I would say that these numbers are a contradiction and must be tossed.

And as the creator of this thread I decide what will be used for the scenario in question. I can set up different scenario that give both sides X firepower because I am the OP of this thread.

Then why should anybody debate you when you can arbitrarily set the power level of your universe to whatever some hack author says? Cannon policies exist for a reason numbnuts.

Prove slip space can effect force lightning or any other SW based weapon. I would also like to see numbers for this device.

I missread that as hiding in Slipspace. But Uncontrolled Slipspace Ruptures are weaponised space-time weapons that make the local laws of physics go crazy so it is likely something werid at the very least is going to happen with the Force storm.

Yet you can't say what will happen and can't provide any numbers for how much energy may collapse a slip stream portal or even define anything about them for me. Thus making it really hard to debate about them until you can find a decent source.

Pound away with what, their kiloton weight attacks... you make me laugh.

Yeah because its not like the Keyship threaten to destroy High Charity by just attempting to leave via sub-light engines (Contact Harvest) or was able to power the entire station with only 10% of the output from the engines.

Yet the game shows lackluster weapons effects that are distinctly subkiloton being fired to great effect. So it must just be that a stiff breeze kills shit in halo.

No limits fallacy, please prove they these slip stream rifts can do anything against Star Wars shields.

They break the local laws of physics near them. They have been observed in the Halo 3 Terminals to be able to destroy any Forerunner ships that got to close and even allowed Offensive Bias to throw around 37,000 ton Dreadnoughts like fighter craft.

Hohum, Palpatine and some half trained Jedi can do the same things. You still haven't given me anything we can debate with, not even exactly how physics are broken in the area, nor if a different form of shields could block it. So quit wanking your no limits BS and give me some hard numbers or fuck off.

Teminal Six, on Legendary difficulty, Halo 3:
05-032 abandoned the tactic of using derelict ships as cover after [72:S] - It seems that 52 core vessels lost to the ruptured fuel cells of derelict ships was lesson enough. Add another 608 lost to collision, point fire, structural failure due to inertial manipulation, and [slipstream space] induced discoherence and I now outnumber Mendicant [6:1].

In bold. Even if you don't accept that the local laws of physics breaking down will take out the shields I'm sure you don't mind the fact they can still completely bypass planetary shields via Slipspace.

I have no issue with that, though if changes in gravity are enough to fuck their shit up I'm sure they'll love tractor beams and interdiction generators fucking with them. Not to mention the fact that slowly opening glowing portals make nice targets.

Oh and they can force stars to go (super)nova as a standard tactic:

Terminal 2
It is my opinion that any system where there is evidence that the enemy has established a physical presence is lost and must be razed. This fleet currently retains the capacity to force premature stellar collapse; I advise that this be established as standard operating procedure for all compromised systems forthwith. We cannot fight this war by half measures if we intend to win.

The Halo Enc. says that it required a Battlegroup to force the star to go (super)nova.

The empire had technology to do the same though it was not yet standard mainly due to the need for special hull materials to make it easier to survive. You also must note that even with this the retards lost to space zombies.

Okay, so 36 hours to do what a single star destroyer can do in a day. As for the cannons I have evidence from the games, games overriding books in cannon, showing that there is nowhere near that kind of firepower being thrown around.

My thread. I dictate what we use for this scenario as the OP.

Sure, you're just like Darkstar when he tried to claim the books weren't cannon for Wars. Go fuck yourself and debate fair this thread is going into the toilet faster than it already is.

Go fuck yourself, you don't set cannon for debates the owner of the source material does. Take you Darkstar style BS elsewhere.

I started this fucking thread. I therefore have control in THIS THREAD to dictate what sources will be for the scenario in question (unless a mod tells me otherwise). I am not changing fucking canon at all. As the OP of this thread I hold the right within this thread to state what will be used unless there is rule I missed or was recently add that said that the OP can not set the scenario up using X can source for Y purpose within the thread.

It's not your thread, I can post in it as I please fucktard. You're clearly ignoring Bungies own cannon order as posted in this thread so go fuck yourself. Or course even with all this BS Halo's best can still only just keep up with a Wars troop transport and you still have hardly any numbers to back your claims...

Those shots are still pathetically weak and if they can harm any ships in Haloverse it is proof they can't harm even a fighter craft.

The shots in Halo 3 are easily low megaton given the Keyship they are attacking is 14 kilometers high. Now if those had been fully charged shots which take 30-60 seconds it would either be 125 MT low end and 250 MT high end assuming nothing else is going on because of the Portal. This happens to fit nicely with the bulk of canon that ships accelerating across thousands of kilometers in combat and fighting at these ranges.

And don't give me any BS about the size of the Covenant ships because their beyond the fucking draw distance of the Halo 3 game engine.

Can you do the math and scaling from those scenes to do the math? I'm going to assume not as you've not once posted real numbers for anything and rely on others to provide your data in half the threads you start. Besides, even if we assume all the ships firing in the Halo 2 scene I was using were ten times as long as the 1.2km I was plugging in and the shots passed them in 1/100th of a second (they were much slower than this) we still get a pathetic energy of 68.8 KT. Light guns on any Star Destroyer put out more than this and they were firing them as if they would do something.

Also are or aren't the Halo games cannon? If they are then you need to explain away missing or invisible ships in universe. We don't get to play the shitty engine game when debating this.

Provide some evidence that the portal caused shit and would suddenly slow down the shots or concede. I don't take kindly to people pulling numbers out of their ass.

I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. I claim as seen later that the Portal was in some form draining power from the UNSC ships. I of course concede I can not prove this was happening before the effects really started but I do use it in an attempt to reconcile the games with the books for a more consistent universe.

Then it wasn't worth bringing up. You can't prove it was doing anything and there was no reason to assume it was so the weak ass shots stand.

Ext ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so either put up or concede. Your pet theories mean shit here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqfeJHsoQh4

So you haven't seen the scene in question I guess if you can't tell the 348 fucking kilometer in diameter station is several thousand kilometers away.

At 27-28 sec you see on the left side of the prow what appears to be another Flood pod simply bounce off without so much as fucking harming the paint.

What are you babbling about now retard? The pod obviously hulled the ship and even if we take that as a weak point that is fucking pathetic. I also only see one impact and some splinters breaking off and then the ship lurches. I also see no evidence of it slowing at all before impacting the ship. You talk about shit not making sense but the only thing not making sense is the shit spewing from you.

Again provide proof, these shots seem consistent with the lame duck shots we see in Halo 2.

Standard charge time in the books is always 30-60 seconds. The only ship with the tech to fire more than a single full power shot at once was the PoA. Also their hardly consistent with these lame duck shots that also happen to be fired at targets BvR when the Prophet's fleet enter the Kill Zone.

So, we see the weapons firing rapidly in the cut scenes so that would seem to contradict the books. We can also see that they even to fire these low to sub kiloton shots as if they will do something so either the crews are all retarded, which isn't something I think we can assume as it seems to be working, or these shots can actually hurt the enemy. If they can hurt the enemy the only option against Wars is to lose, hard.

It looks like your pet fan wank verse is in too deep.

I'm sorry but Halo is hardly my "fan wank verse". Try a universe called Invader Zim where civ craft the size of small cars cut open micro-dyson spheres large enough to hold the Earth with their side pods and have planet size ships that can ram through planets and stars after losing shields and take only damage to the paint job if you want the universe I use for "fan wank".

Just because you wank harder for Zim doesn't mean you aren't a halo wanker. Even for Zim you started a bunch of threads that broke board rules and others added all the real insight. I guess using numbers is just to much work for Invader Dipshit.

As I said, you don't designate cannon policy so kindly fuck off.

Point me to the fucking rule that saids so. Within this thread as the OP I can say what we will use for scenario fucking X. Unless a mod tells me otherwise kindly shut the fuck up.

Um, look back at the whole Darkstar saga to see the boards stance on trying to dictate cannon policy.

[Invader Taz]

Doesn't really change the fact that you can't scale shit from it now does it?

How can we not scale from it?

Hell here's a thread at SB that did some low end and high end calcs:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=168590

I care why? You're sure wanking it hard enough here...

I'm not wanking at all. I simply want a reasonable balance Vs.

So it takes them 20-40 years to build them, in the same time if the Empire so chose it could, assuming no bottle necks, churn out at least a dozen DSII's as well as tons of other craft. Color me unimpressed.

That is the time line I recall for the full size Dyson Spheres alone. IT took the Ark only two months to rebuild most of Alpha Halo (Semtemper 17 (IIRC, may be just slightly off there) was the Battle of Alpha Halo and November 17 was the Second Battle of Earth and the battle of the Ark).

Still looking for dates on the Dyson Spheres, the Terminal quotes they have at Halopedia need to be cleaned up.

Then why should anybody debate you when you can arbitrarily set the power level of your universe to whatever some hack author says? Cannon policies exist for a reason numbnuts.

And as the OP I can set the variables for the scenario. But I’ll make multiplies scenarios just so this thread can get back on topic.

Yet you can't say what will happen and can't provide any numbers for how much energy may collapse a slip stream portal or even define anything about them for me. Thus making it really hard to debate about them until you can find a decent source.

Yet the game shows lackluster weapons effects that are distinctly subkiloton being fired to great effect. So it must just be that a stiff breeze kills shit in halo.

Covenant/UNSC =/= Forerunner. Also drop the sub-kiloton BS because that is contradicted by hundreds to thousands of Gs of acceleration seen in both the books and the games (Games: End of Halo:CE the Longsword Fighter crossed 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds per the timer. Halo 2 when we arrive at Delta Halo we see that it is around 10,000 or so kilometers away and it only took a few minute at most for the Prophet's Carrier to take up position above the ring. As In Amber Clad is heading towards the ring it is easily moving at dozens of kilometers per second. Halo 3 we have the FuD accelerating across 10,000 odd kilometers in 90 or seconds going from the 90% charge rate of the Halo ring. If you don't believe me I can get you links tomorrow to all but possibly the last one. Last one is near impossible ti find most of the time).

Hohum, Palpatine and some half trained Jedi can do the same things. You still haven't given me anything we can debate with, not even exactly how physics are broken in the area, nor if a different form of shields could block it. So quit wanking your no limits BS and give me some hard numbers or fuck off.

It just breaks down the laws of physics and if you get to close it completely destroys the ship. That is just about all we know about it right now. Also shields will do no good given a Slipspace Rift is a big hole in the fabric of space-time itself.

I have no issue with that, though if changes in gravity are enough to fuck their shit up I'm sure they'll love tractor beams and interdiction generators fucking with them.

No limits fallacy on the gravity. It appears to be another form of space-time weapons. Makes me think of the Culture with their Pancakers or what ever their called.

Not to mention the fact that slowly opening glowing portals make nice targets.

The ships or the portals? Because all that will happen when you shoot at a Slipspace portal is the TL bolt is dumpped into Slipspace like anything else.

The empire had technology to do the same though it was not yet standard mainly due to the need for special hull materials to make it easier to survive. You also must note that even with this the retards lost to space zombies.

As of this point in the war the Forerunners have learned their lesson as per the OP. Also since your complaining about them losing to space zombies feel free to quantify just how powerful the Flood of 100,000 years ago were after gaining access to Forerunner technology during the first attacks was.

Or course even with all this BS Halo's best can still only just keep up with a Wars troop transport and you still have hardly any numbers to back your claims...

Lol what? Given how the Keyship in 900-800 B.C.E was swatting around fleets on a fraction of its full power and using Halo Enc. calcs I'm really doubting that.

Can you do the math and scaling from those scenes to do the math?

The size of the Keyship was already established in Halo 2 and by the Graphic Novel as being 14 kilometers. Running the size of the fireballs through the Nuke Calculator gives me low double digit firepower since their multi-kilometer as scaled against the 14 kilometer Keyship.

Also are or aren't the Halo games cannon? If they are then you need to explain away missing or invisible ships in universe. We don't get to play the shitty engine game when debating this.

The scene can hardly be used if it is inconsistent. Either the ships are in visual of their BvR. Also see the massive acceleration that is consistently throughout the books and the games (the outlier being Halo Wars which is easily explain by Slipspace fucking up something).

What are you babbling about now retard? The pod obviously hulled the ship and even if we take that as a weak point that is fucking pathetic. I also only see one impact and some splinters breaking off and then the ship lurches. I also see no evidence of it slowing at all before impacting the ship. You talk about shit not making sense but the only thing not making sense is the shit spewing from you.

The fucking station that thing came from which is 348 kilometers in diameter is easily several thousand kilometers away and the Pod crossed that distance in seconds yet slowed down at the last instant to several kilometers per second.

So, we see the weapons firing rapidly in the cut scenes so that would seem to contradict the books.

Yes. And the first thing we do is try to reconcile the canon before tossing it. Either those are light rounds (the 120 ton ones IIRC metion on Contact Harvest) or their using low power shots. Or we throw it out since it is an outlier with everything else and the Halo 3 scene.

We can also see that they even to fire these low to sub kiloton shots as if they will do something so either the crews are all retarded, which isn't something I think we can assume as it seems to be working, or these shots can actually hurt the enemy. If they can hurt the enemy the only option against Wars is to lose, hard.

Sub-kiloton shots are contradicted by everything else in both the games and the books. I can get quotes and links to cut scenes tomorrow.

Um, look back at the whole Darkstar saga to see the boards stance on trying to dictate cannon policy.

And I am not trying to dictate it. But so we can get back on topic:

Scenario One: Forerunner vessels are low GT at best using Halo mid-low ends for Covenant and UNSC.

Scenario Two: Firepower and defense wise Forerunner ships are equal to SW vessels of similar size.

Scenario Three: We scale from Halo Enc. numbers and the OVS seen in GoO.

There. Now I'm off to bed.

[adam_grif]

So it takes them 20-40 years to build them, in the same time if the Empire so chose it could, assuming no bottle necks, churn out at least a dozen DSII's as well as tons of other craft. Color me unimpressed.

If you want industrial capability they have it. The Ark is an automated factory larger than the Earth, and in ~ 3 months, it nearly finished constructing the replacement for the Halo you blew up in the first game (You destroyed it in September, you arrive at the Ark to see it nearly completed in December). Each ringworld is ~10,000 KM in diameter, so that's not something to spit at. By comparison, DS2 is completely solid, but ~900 KM in diameter.

[Norade]

Doesn't really change the fact that you can't scale shit from it now does it?

How can we not scale from it?

Hell here's a thread at SB that did some low end and high end calcs:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=168590

So first we have a gun with no known firepower numbers that has ranges measured in light years. Star Wars has weapons that can engage targets out of its chosen faster than light medium and have weapons that can attack from light years away. So I'm not impressed by that at all. It isn't as if it can threaten a ship in hyperspace after all.

Once again we see that they can weaponize slipspace, but we have no numbers for what it can do, how large a bubble they can send, how fast it propagates so we can't determine how large a threat it is.

A battle was finished quickly, but we don't know very much about the level of parity they were fighting with. So we have no reason to believe that a fleet from Star Wars couldn't win in a similar time frame.

They have teleporters that are in common use, Star Wars has them, but they are considered to be trinkets in the only source one appears in.

Halo Legends is explicitly not cannon and thus can't be used.

They can transport large objects such as Halo rings through slip space. Star Wars can move the Death Star faster than light as well so while impressive there is nothing to say Star Wars can't do it. We know that using an artifacts planets in Star Wars can go FTL.

More shit from the books that is never even remotely shown in Cannon.

Building a planet was also done by the Star Wars universe, though I would need to look to find the time frame. Though they haven't build a Death Star more quickly than two years, they were built in secret, I bet the time could come down if they were standardized and mass produced.

The Forerunners do seem like a tough match in the area of industry, but without hard numbers we will never know for sure.

The high and low end scales are ass pulled with no explanation for how he figured out what the Covenant ship could handle firepower wise (Going by the scenes I have shown from Halo they look to be truly pathetic in terms of toughness.). The staff give now firm numbers themselves on this matter either only vaguely alluding that the higher is closer than the lower. As well no source for the statement was given to confirm it.

The end is garbage they look at power per meter without saying if it is capacitor based or if it is coming from a reactor. All these numbers are the roughest speculation at best and unsupported nonsense at worst. Hell Aviancocksucker put more math in his topics than was presented there.

I care why? You're sure wanking it hard enough here...

I'm not wanking at all. I simply want a reasonable balance Vs.

Achieved by cramming fingers in your ears and ignoring cannon policy for the universe in question...

So it takes them 20-40 years to build them, in the same time if the Empire so chose it could, assuming no bottle necks, churn out at least a dozen DSII's as well as tons of other craft. Color me unimpressed.

That is the time line I recall for the full size Dyson Spheres alone. IT took the Ark only two months to rebuild most of Alpha Halo (Semtemper 17 (IIRC, may be just slightly off there) was the Battle of Alpha Halo and November 17 was the Second Battle of Earth and the battle of the Ark).

Still looking for dates on the Dyson Spheres, the Terminal quotes they have at Halopedia need to be cleaned up.

You failed to communicate that point, maybe you should do a better job next time and not make me work to provide evidence for your side. Though the ability to rebuild an ark swiftly is impressive unlike with Star Wars it had a ready source of materials nearby to repair it from so that can't be used for a from scratch building time.

Then why should anybody debate you when you can arbitrarily set the power level of your universe to whatever some hack author says? Cannon policies exist for a reason numbnuts.

And as the OP I can set the variables for the scenario. But I’ll make multiplies scenarios just so this thread can get back on topic.

Better, but next time don't shit on Halo cannon policy to try and make one side seem bigger than it should be.

Yet you can't say what will happen and can't provide any numbers for how much energy may collapse a slip stream portal or even define anything about them for me. Thus making it really hard to debate about them until you can find a decent source.

Did you just miss this one?

Yet the game shows lackluster weapons effects that are distinctly subkiloton being fired to great effect. So it must just be that a stiff breeze kills shit in halo.

Covenant/UNSC =/= Forerunner. Also drop the sub-kiloton BS because that is contradicted by hundreds to thousands of Gs of acceleration seen in both the books and the games (Games: End of Halo:CE the Longsword Fighter crossed 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds per the timer. Halo 2 when we arrive at Delta Halo we see that it is around 10,000 or so kilometers away and it only took a few minute at most for the Prophet's Carrier to take up position above the ring. As In Amber Clad is heading towards the ring it is easily moving at dozens of kilometers per second. Halo 3 we have the FuD accelerating across 10,000 odd kilometers in 90 or seconds going from the 90% charge rate of the Halo ring. If you don't believe me I can get you links tomorrow to all but possibly the last one. Last one is near impossible ti find most of the time).

Then please do explain the slow ass shots we see in the Halo 2 and 3 videos and don't try to claim that 'magic slip space' did it this time. Just because the ships can move fast doesn't mean that they weren't firing slow as shit projectiles and dealing damage with them.

Hohum, Palpatine and some half trained Jedi can do the same things. You still haven't given me anything we can debate with, not even exactly how physics are broken in the area, nor if a different form of shields could block it. So quit wanking your no limits BS and give me some hard numbers or fuck off.

It just breaks down the laws of physics and if you get to close it completely destroys the ship. That is just about all we know about it right now. Also shields will do no good given a Slipspace Rift is a big hole in the fabric of space-time itself.

You keep claiming this, but provide no numbers to prove that they can do anything of the sort. The ability to destroy a Covenant or Forerunner Vessel =/= to the ability to do the same through Star Wars shielding.

I have no issue with that, though if changes in gravity are enough to fuck their shit up I'm sure they'll love tractor beams and interdiction generators fucking with them.

No limits fallacy on the gravity. It appears to be another form of space-time weapons. Makes me think of the Culture with their Pancakers or what ever their called.[/quote]

It specifically said 'inertial manipulation' which could be done using manipulation of gravity. While we don't have any numbers at all for how tough a forerunner ship is if they used gravity as a weapon as part of slip space weapons then Wars can already counter this attack and return the favor in kind. An example being turning up inertial dampeners and extending the field to defeat the gravity based attacks of the Vong in NJO.

Not to mention the fact that slowly opening glowing portals make nice targets.

The ships or the portals? Because all that will happen when you shoot at a Slipspace portal is the TL bolt is dumpped into Slipspace like anything else.

The ships as they exit the massive target that is the portal. They always seem to exit rather sluggishly.

The empire had technology to do the same though it was not yet standard mainly due to the need for special hull materials to make it easier to survive. You also must note that even with this the retards lost to space zombies.

As of this point in the war the Forerunners have learned their lesson as per the OP. Also since your complaining about them losing to space zombies feel free to quantify just how powerful the Flood of 100,000 years ago were after gaining access to Forerunner technology during the first attacks was.

Either way, they still allowed shambling mounts of crap to capture their technology and were then to stupid to end the threat quickly. In the end the Forerunners chose suicide as their option and even in doing that they failed. We also don't know if they survived setting off Novas or if this was a last ditch suicide tactic.

Or course even with all this BS Halo's best can still only just keep up with a Wars troop transport and you still have hardly any numbers to back your claims...

Lol what? Given how the Keyship in 900-800 B.C.E was swatting around fleets on a fraction of its full power and using Halo Enc. calcs I'm really doubting that.

Except that those Halo Enc. calcs are bullshit and contradicted by the games.

Can you do the math and scaling from those scenes to do the math?

The size of the Keyship was already established in Halo 2 and by the Graphic Novel as being 14 kilometers. Running the size of the fireballs through the Nuke Calculator gives me low double digit firepower since their multi-kilometer as scaled against the 14 kilometer Keyship.

Except that there can be other explanations for enhanced fireballs and that is precisely why we don;t do calculations based on ship versus ship attacks.

Also are or aren't the Halo games cannon? If they are then you need to explain away missing or invisible ships in universe. We don't get to play the shitty engine game when debating this.

The scene can hardly be used if it is inconsistent. Either the ships are in visual of their BvR. Also see the massive acceleration that is consistently throughout the books and the games (the outlier being Halo Wars which is easily explain by Slipspace fucking up something).

Perhaps they slowed so the flood organisms aboard could survive the impact? You simply only want to use the example that favors your side.

What are you babbling about now retard? The pod obviously hulled the ship and even if we take that as a weak point that is fucking pathetic. I also only see one impact and some splinters breaking off and then the ship lurches. I also see no evidence of it slowing at all before impacting the ship. You talk about shit not making sense but the only thing not making sense is the shit spewing from you.

The fucking station that thing came from which is 348 kilometers in diameter is easily several thousand kilometers away and the Pod crossed that distance in seconds yet slowed down at the last instant to several kilometers per second.

I provided an explanation for that above, you are simply looking for an example that favors your position and then filling in proof once you've already reach a conclusion.

So, we see the weapons firing rapidly in the cut scenes so that would seem to contradict the books.

Yes. And the first thing we do is try to reconcile the canon before tossing it. Either those are light rounds (the 120 ton ones IIRC metion on Contact Harvest) or their using low power shots. Or we throw it out since it is an outlier with everything else and the Halo 3 scene.

So you suggest we throw out the main scenes from the games that show ships firing to better fit the lower tier cannon books. That is laughably bad. Face it, the only shots we see being fired in the games are weak as shit.

We can also see that they even to fire these low to sub kiloton shots as if they will do something so either the crews are all retarded, which isn't something I think we can assume as it seems to be working, or these shots can actually hurt the enemy. If they can hurt the enemy the only option against Wars is to lose, hard.

Sub-kiloton shots are contradicted by everything else in both the games and the books. I can get quotes and links to cut scenes tomorrow.

Yet still we see them on screen, how do you explain that fucker?

Um, look back at the whole Darkstar saga to see the boards stance on trying to dictate cannon policy.

And I am not trying to dictate it. But so we can get back on topic:

Scenario One: Forerunner vessels are low GT at best using Halo mid-low ends for Covenant and UNSC.

Scenario Two: Firepower and defense wise Forerunner ships are equal to SW vessels of similar size.

Scenario Three: We scale from Halo Enc. numbers and the OVS seen in GoO.

There. Now I'm off to bed.

Much better, but you still shouldn't try to force the debate on your terms unless you want Wars fans to pull out the insanely high end calcs for ourselves.

[Xess]

So it takes them 20-40 years to build them, in the same time if the Empire so chose it could, assuming no bottle necks, churn out at least a dozen DSII's as well as tons of other craft. Color me unimpressed.

If you want industrial capability they have it. The Ark is an automated factory larger than the Earth, and in ~ 3 months, it nearly finished constructing the replacement for the Halo you blew up in the first game (You destroyed it in September, you arrive at the Ark to see it nearly completed in December). Each ringworld is ~10,000 KM in diameter, so that's not something to spit at. By comparison, DS2 is completely solid, but ~900 KM in diameter.

Well assuming the Halo is 100km wide and thick, I haven't actually scaled it so someone who has will surely correct me, and has a density of 8000 kg/m^3 it would mass about 2.5e21 kg. The DS2 at 800 kg/m^3 density masses about 3e20 kg. Of course the Halo rings aren't a solid ring and have plenty of void spaces as seen in the games so the actual figures will be a bit off. So since the Ark built something with about 10 times the mass in half the time that would put it's industrial capacity at about 30 times that of what the Empire used to build the DS2 using the 6 months to 60% completion figure for the DS2.

On firepower, the Venator-class Star Destroyer annihilates 40,000 tons of matter a second at max output according to the Revenge of the Sith ICS, which translates into 3.6e24 Watts (4e7 kg * c^2) at 100% efficiency. The same book also states that a warship can use all of it's reactor power for weapons. That puts a Venator's max weapon output at 857 teratons/second (3.6e24 Watts / 4.2e21 Joules/teraton). Most sources agree that ISDs are more powerful than Venators, I remember hearing about 1e25 Watts for reactor power based on down scaling the DS1. If accurate that puts an ISDs max firepower at 2380 teratons/second.

[Norade]

If you want industrial capability they have it. The Ark is an automated factory larger than the Earth, and in ~ 3 months, it nearly finished constructing the replacement for the Halo you blew up in the first game (You destroyed it in September, you arrive at the Ark to see it nearly completed in December). Each ringworld is ~10,000 KM in diameter, so that's not something to spit at. By comparison, DS2 is completely solid, but ~900 KM in diameter.

Well assuming the Halo is 100km wide and thick, I haven't actually scaled it so someone who has will surely correct me, and has a density of 8000 kg/m^3 it would mass about 2.5e21 kg. The DS2 at 800 kg/m^3 density masses about 3e20 kg. Of course the Halo rings aren't a solid ring and have plenty of void spaces as seen in the games so the actual figures will be a bit off. So since the Ark built something with about 10 times the mass in half the time that would put it's industrial capacity at about 20 times that of what the Empire used to build the DS2.

The DSII was also a prototype and built in secret by a single company in an out of the way location. I would imagine they could build them faster if needed.

On firepower, the Venator-class Star Destroyer annihilates 40,000 tons of matter a second at max output according to the Revenge of the Sith ICS, which translates into 3.6e24 Watts (4e7 kg * c^2) at 100% efficiency. The same book also states that a warship can use all of it's reactor power for weapons. That puts a Venator's max weapon output at 857 teratons/second (3.6e24 Watts / 4.2e21 Joules/teraton). Most sources agree that ISDs are more powerful than Venators, I remember hearing about 1e25 Watts for reactor power based on down scaling the DS1. If accurate that puts an ISDs max firepower at 2380 teratons/second.

Thanks for the support.

[Xess]

The DSII was also a prototype and built in secret by a single company in an out of the way location. I would imagine they could build them faster if needed.

I was using the 60% figure so it's closer to 30 times. However that just means that the Ark is about 30 times better than the Empire's secret, out of the way, single corp shipping industry. I have no idea how the Ark would compare to say the full efforts of Kuat Drive Yards.

[Norade]

The DSII was also a prototype and built in secret by a single company in an out of the way location. I would imagine they could build them faster if needed.

I was using the 60% figure so it's closer to 30 times. However that just means that the Ark is about 30 times better than the Empire's secret, out of the way, single corp shipping industry. I have no idea how the Ark would compare to say the full efforts of Kuat Drive Yards.

Nor do I, if only because Kaut is so rarely pushed to such a limit. However we do see a backwater droid assembly line cranking out a battle droid a second, and we know that ISD's don't take an exceptionally long time to build.

[adam_grif]

The DSII was also a prototype and built in secret by a single company in an out of the way location. I would imagine they could build them faster if needed.

No way of knowing, but the point isn't to show that the Forerunner are some sort of invincible industrial juggernaut, just that they can play in the same league that Wars industry does. There is only one known Ark, and it's unknown how long it took to build. That said, that they could construct a single factory to do this all in one-location represents quite the industry and technology base. There's actually a planetoid inside the Ark (~the size of Earth's moon, but comprised of all sorts of heavy metals) that they simply break apart and use as construction materials.


...

I wonder how Deadspace verse stacks up against others now that I think about it. I mean they routinely crack planets apart for mining purposes.

[Norade]

The DSII was also a prototype and built in secret by a single company in an out of the way location. I would imagine they could build them faster if needed.

No way of knowing, but the point isn't to show that the Forerunner are some sort of invincible industrial juggernaut, just that they can play in the same league that Wars industry does. There is only one known Ark, and it's unknown how long it took to build. That said, that they could construct a single factory to do this all in one-location represents quite the industry and technology base. There's actually a planetoid inside the Ark (~the size of Earth's moon, but comprised of all sorts of heavy metals) that they simply break apart and use as construction materials.

Well not knowing what they had or how long it takes them to build new construction sites really makes this debate tough.

I wonder how Deadspace verse stacks up against others now that I think about it. I mean they routinely crack planets apart for mining purposes.

The DSI was passed off as a mining laser to its designer so that couldn't be too far out there.