Salvation War in the United Federation of Planets

[ShadowOfMadness]

Even if they saw that the Earth was radically advanced, what could they do to catch up?

Take any federation scientists and engineers in Hell...and force them to teach Satan's legions modern technology. Then build outdated spaceships and still lose?

[Shroom Man 777]

You have HEA drill instructors teaching them shit and they still can't learn shit. How are those Federation scientists going to convert iron-age smelts and mines into factories, anyway?

[CSJM]

Like I said, they need a creative strain. Belial was that creative strain - with his mind and a moderately smart engineer at his service, he actually devised a weapon of non-negligible power. Brainwashed Starfleet engineers could do wonders with the demonic troops - remember the biologic energy source? They could be fielding an army with shoulder-mounted disruptors and personal shields within ten years, even without access to compact fusion power. If they make covert raids on Federation stockpiles to replicate the technology for themselves, the multimillion baldrick force could become far too powerful to stop with anything save orbital bombardment - and that's if they don't give harpies spacesuits and personal jetpacks.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Where do they get the infrastructure to build all this shit?* That's as stupid as saying that by "reverse engineering" shit, and with modern scientists who've converted to National Socialism, Nazi Germany could beat modern day America with a fleet of swastika-sporting Luftwaffe F-22s

*can replicators even replicate complicated machines or stuff that's not earl gray tea?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Like I said, they need a creative strain. Belial was that creative strain - with his mind and a moderately smart engineer at his service, he actually devised a weapon of non-negligible power. Brainwashed Starfleet engineers could do wonders with the demonic troops - remember the biologic energy source? They could be fielding an army with shoulder-mounted disruptors and personal shields within ten years, even without access to compact fusion power.

Wow. No-limits fallacy much? Please demonstrate that the electrical energy produced by a baldrick would be enough to power Star Trek shielding or personal disruptor technology. Furthermore, demonstrate that Federation technology can be powered with daemonic electrical discharges.

Also, if I recall, the weapon Belial's people produced was a fixed gun requiring a single crippled naga to operate, and was basically a trident writ large bolted to a really big capacitor. It was well within the grasp of daemonic metallurgy and production methods. The only reach the daemons had to make was the notion that you'd feed the self-produced energy into an external capacitor, instead of shooting it off as soon as your internal batteries were full. The leap from trident to super-trident is far, far smaller than the leap from trident to Treknobabble.

[CSJM]

Why dismiss Treknobabble, btw? The whole thing runs on it, why won't it apply here? That's a bad excuse of course, but meh.

Yeah, the bio-generators won't make for rapid-fire weapons or any sort of permanent protection. What they'll have will be advanced capacitors in a backpack, and an option to either fire off a shot or activate a shield for some time. That'll still make them quite deadly, coupled with their natural resilience.

(edit: The proof that Starfleet tech can be powered by Baldrick energy is the in-story attempt to recreate a trident with Universe A materials - without the altered physical properties of Universe B bronze, the electricity behaved like it was expected, arcing to the ground. Since any weapons the Baldricks acquire will be either directly taken or replicated, they'll essentially be Universe-A material, and will function as designed)

If they get Starfleet engineers on their side, it won't take them long to get ahold of fusion cells and replicators - it'll only go downhill from there. Even if the Hell invasion fails and Hell is overtaken, the Heaven invasion won't happen. The Trek verse offers too many easily capturable options for Michael and his crew.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Wow, I'm going to have to break out the crayon and monosyllables to explain to you why you're full of shit, aren't I?

Why dismiss Treknobabble, btw? The whole thing runs on it, why won't it apply here? That's a bad excuse of course, but meh.

I haven't dismissed Treknobabble. I'm saying that it's so far in advance of what the baldricks have shown that they're capable of that they're not going to be able to understand it, let alone reverse-engineer it.

Yeah, the bio-generators won't make for rapid-fire weapons or any sort of permanent protection. What they'll have will be advanced capacitors in a backpack, and an option to either fire off a shot or activate a shield for some time. That'll still make them quite deadly, coupled with their natural resilience.

Again, show that the baldricks can produce enough energy to power a Star Trek personal shield (and won't that be a neat trick, since only the Borg appear to use them,) or a disruptor or phaser.

(edit: The proof that Starfleet tech can be powered by Baldrick energy is the in-story attempt to recreate a trident with Universe A materials - without the altered physical properties of Universe B bronze, the electricity behaved like it was expected, arcing to the ground. Since any weapons the Baldricks acquire will be either directly taken or replicated, they'll essentially be Universe-A material, and will function as designed)

Fail. Let's try a simple example to demonstrate why this is so. Take your favorite electronic device, two long wires, and a standard 120 VAC electrical outlet. Shove the two wires into the electrical outlet, and then stick them into the DC power port of your electronic device. What happens? You release the magic smoke, and you look stupid.

If they get Starfleet engineers on their side, it won't take them long to get ahold of fusion cells and replicators - it'll only go downhill from there.

So . . . when asked to prove that your argument is not a no-limits fallacy, you . . . expand on the original no-limits fallacy. Yeah . . .

[Shroom Man 777]

CSJM: You are full of shit.

Too many easily capturable options for Michael and his crew? Eh? As far as I know, Judeochristianity's practically non-existent in the Trekverse, so you won't see any fanatics who'll sabotage submarines in the name of Michael. Nor are there any juntas on Trek Earth for Michael to ally with. So, how many easily capturable options does Michael have left? For all we know, the materials used in Trek packing crates - which seem to block phasers - may be the same materials used in Trek housing, with similar properties to aluminum foil, and whoops - there goes angel/demon mindfuck powers, and bye bye Uriel (too bad he was never really a credible threat anyway lol).

And, man, it's not as if the Federation has no experience in dealing with telepathic races and other assorted mindfuckeries. With those Betamaxoids and Vulcans with them, I think they'll be way quicker on the uptake on dealing with weirdo angel/demon shits than TSW Earth.

Shit, if TSW Earth, which is like based on real life, has Dr. Surlekuroschattenetheko figuring out angel/demonic shits and technobabbulating through it within months, I think the Trek guys who've got working teleportation and working faster than light shit and more quantums would be able to figure this out in a second.

Also, prove that the Baldricks can blow up asteroids, or else concede your goddamn point!


EDIT:

Oh man, Surlekuroschattenetheko would be an awesome demon name! Perhaps Luga ended up falling for Dr. Surl! Everyone wuvs Luga! =^____^=

[FedRebel]

Satan, from Stuart's Salvation war series, decides to launch his conquest of earth. Unfortunately, he has been putting it off for a little longer than anticipated, and instead of arriving at the dawn of the 21st century, his heralds portal in to Earth, the capital of the United Federation of Planets, in 2378. How would things turn out?

You can't be serious

1. The federation's neighbors do not interfere

So, no Klingon v. Baldrick duels, pity

2. For the sake of an interesting discussion, the federation can not use transporters as weapons

Okay

3. Yahwey is free to intervene at any time he desires

Why would he enter the war earlier? He'd sooner watch Satan die by phaser fire than lift a finger to help

4. All though war is certainly possible, if you believe the Feds can find a diplomatic solution, feel free to discuss it

So , what if Satan procastinates and decide to claim humanity in the 24th century and has to contend with the United Federation of planets...

1. The Heralds would go about their business unmolested, the Federation would attempt to negotiate, only to learn the "extra-dimensional lifeforms" are unwavering the "lay down and surrender your souls to eternal torment" condition

2. Abigor's invasion force encounters resistance from scattered security teams, through shear weight of numbers (and lack of Federation armor, and proper miltary tactics and strategy by the Federation) Abigor's forces are able to subdue the resistance

3. Orbital bombardment is only pursued after ground teams are routed and Abigor's armies begin to lay siege to cities, and Abigor is eventually encouraged to retreat and do so without further molestation

4. A Starfleet science team establishes a camp near the spacial anomaly to study it and try and close it. When Abigor and his Army in disgrace return, the humans attempt diplomacy and the camp is attacked by Abigor's forces in an effort to redeem themselves. (keep in mind Starfleet doesn't flex it's muscles like the U.S. Military, as a result Abigor will still have a sizable percentage of his Army)

5. After days of protracted battles Abigor's disgraced Army is eventually defeated (the presence of child creatures will negate starship support options)

6. A crack Starfleet Scientist/Engineer suggests using a tri-cobalt device to close the anomaly on the grounds that some of it's spacial harmonics are similar to a wormhole. Unfortunately the portals are decidedly different in behavior and the device causes the wormhole to enlarge.

7. A Probe is sent through the anomaly and detects a breathable, but hostile atmosphere, scans reveal the Klein bottle nature of the dimension and the lack of 'space' will limit the use of spacecraft

8. The war would be a very big "?" at this point. In the fighting Starfleet will have trouble coping with the particulate and fighting will be limited to visual range as a result (electrostatic activity of the pumice and ash in the air will interfere with the targeting scanners of shuttles and ships)

9. After a couple years of fighting (Earth facing more incursions from other Hellish armies, Lava attacks, and Starfleet's snail crawl towards Dis) Satan is eventually killed and the war 'nominally' concludes, numeroius warlords pop up and start fighting eachother for domination (and swearing revenge on the Humans) while Starfleet leaves citing the Prime Directive

10. The Weather Modification Net starts experiencing anomalous malfunctions and eventually crashes under the strain of unusual storm formations (a century of pent up weather just magnifies the intensity of God's storms after the net crashes)

Oops! Gotta go to work!

[Shroom Man 777]

Or... shielded shuttles, immune from harpy attacks due to shields, go in and go pew-pew the Baldricks from the air, immune from attack, and ruin the shit out of the demonoids?

[Samuel]

Or the Feds pull everyone out of the path of the legions of hell and Satan is left wondering where the hell everyone has gone.

[Junghalli]

I seem to remember a TOS episode (I think it was A Piece of the Action) where Kirk had the Enterprise stun a number of attackers from orbit. Given how slow Abigor's army would move and the fact it starts out on a giant empty open plain (really, they couldn't have picked a worse way to do it against a modern force if they tried) that would probably be a viable means of neutralizing them with minimal collateral damage and bloodshed, and then the Federation gets a huge number of demon prisoners to study and interrogate.

Also I think when the Federation realizes that people are still being sent to Hell to get tortured after they die they'll be quite determined to put a stop to that one way or another: they don't have bio-immortality and most of them won't want to look forward to millennia of torture.

You know, since Trek is full of pretty clearly closely related to human creatures that apparently aren't showing up in Hell this makes me wonder about the whole mechanics of who goes to Hell and who doesn't in this crossover. Do humans who die on other planets or in other solar systems still go to Hell? Does a Vulcan or a Klingon who dies on Earth show up in Hell? I kind of get the impression from TSW that it's on a basis of genetics, in which case do half-humans like Spock and Troi go to Hell? How much human blood do you need to end up in Hell? And where do the other races go when they die? Other bubble-worlds, or do they just cease to exist?

Edit: come to think of it, did TSW ever answer whether Nephilim show up in Hell after they die?

[Cecelia5578]

Satan, from Stuart's Salvation war series, decides to launch his conquest of earth. Unfortunately, he has been putting it off for a little longer than anticipated, and instead of arriving at the dawn of the 21st century, his heralds portal in to Earth, the capital of the United Federation of Planets, in 2378. How would things turn out?
A few rules:
1. The federation's neighbors do not interfere
2. For the sake of an interesting discussion, the federation can not use transporters as weapons
3. Yahwey is free to intervene at any time he desires
4. All though war is certainly possible, if you believe the Feds can find a diplomatic solution, feel free to discuss it

I'm not so keen on number two-to the best of my knowledge, Stargate Atlantis is the only sci fi series to use transporters as weapons, and its never happened in Trek (on screen or in books). Its just that I hate people limiting the Feddies options to make them seem like uber socialistic pacifist douchebags or something like that.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the point of restriction #2 is that it's supposed to limit the Trekkers to what they normally do- fly around, blast things with phasers and torpedoes, beam troops around the battlefield, and so on.

In space combat they're fairly effective; it's on the ground where their deficiencies are a problem. That said, I still think the Federation wins handily because they've got several advantages over Salvation War Earth to offset their disadvantage of being less effective at ground combat:

-Phaser support (photon torpedoes are functionally similar to nukes, and we could nuke demonic armies just as well as they can, but capital ship phasers are more powerful than any comparably accurate weapon we have today, and have much less in the way of environmental side effects than a nuke would).
-More advanced physics (they can examine and duplicate portals far more easily; I wouldn't put it past them to figure out an artificial substitute for a nephilim in short order).
-Multiple planets (they can lose the entire Earth and still be an effective fighting force).

[Cecelia5578]

True, I guess it depends on how you would use transporters as weapons. Does that mean beaming photon torpedos, or using the transporter to beam special ops/science teams in?

Actually, there's no reason to beam science teams anywhere, as an orbiting starship would probably suffice for any science missions.

[Siege]

I'm not so keen on number two-to the best of my knowledge, Stargate Atlantis is the only sci fi series to use transporters as weapons, and its never happened in Trek (on screen or in books).

It might not have been used in that manner by Starfleet, but there was one episode of Voyager (Episode 2x11 Maneuvers, to be precise) where Kazon warlord Maje Culluh beams another Kazon into space using a stolen transporter module. That counts as 'use as weapon' in my book.

[Jake]

True, I guess it depends on how you would use transporters as weapons.

I was thinking more along the lines of shuttlecraft/starships beaming demons away and simply not re materializing them. Also, if the federation has some kind of transporter network on Earth they could do the same thing without starships. The beaming of photon torpedoes and the like is also using transporters as a weapon. Beaming away teams is still ok.

[Jake]

Beaming into space is a good example of transporters as weapons as well.

[Mobius IO]

There is simply no way the Federation can lose this.

We're talking about a large bronze age ground armies that move at miles per day vs. am interstellar civilization with FTL capabilities as well as scientific understanding, industry, and weapons significantly more advanced then ours.

Sure their ground forces suck but so what? One starship could destroy Abigor's armies at any time it. Nothing Hell has is going to touch even a shuttle craft. If for some crazy reason the Federation let them take over a large part of the Earth it still would have everything in orbit around it, the rest of the Sol system and everything beyond.

[Night_stalker]

Yes, silly me I forgot how effective the Federation was at lending orbital support to its pathetic ground forces, not to mention the fact that more than likely the Baldricks will smash their way into a city, where there's civilians.

Do the math: civilians in city+occupying forces preventing ANY accurate positioning data= long and bloody Stalingrad style urban combat.

[Junghalli]

I think the liberation of Hell might be the stage where they have more problems because the nature of the bubble worlds might make it impossible to use orbital assets and all the particulates in Hell's atmosphere might interfere with their sensors and transporters.

Of course they can still send shuttles through, and shuttles would probably be basically functionally invulnerable to anything Hell might throw at them, so if we assume they have functioning brains at all they should still be able to devestate Hell pretty effectively. Actual occupation might be where they have the most difficulties, but I don't see why they couldn't suborn compliant factions of Hell inhabitants like TSW humans did.

Come to think of it, has it ever been established how high the "ceilings" of Hell and Heaven are? Depending on the answer and the geometries of the gravity field there might well be an empty vacuum free-fall zone in the middle of the bubble where you could send starships. Of course they'd need a very big portal, or they might be able to disassemble it and send it through in pieces (hey, it's not like the Baldricks would have any space assets that might shoot at you while you're doing it).

Yes, silly me I forgot how effective the Federation was at lending orbital support to its pathetic ground forces, not to mention the fact that more than likely the Baldricks will smash their way into a city, where there's civilians.

Do the math: civilians in city+occupying forces preventing ANY accurate positioning data= long and bloody Stalingrad style urban combat.

That would indeed be one of the best tactics they could use, but it requires them showing more intelligence/knowledge than they did in canon, where as far as I can remember they never did anything more than commando raids into cities. Maybe they couldn't make a suitably big portal because all their portal specialists were taken up by Belial's sky volcano project. If they follow canon tactics and strategy they'll drop a huge army into an empty desert.

[bilateralrope]

Yes, silly me I forgot how effective the Federation was at lending orbital support to its pathetic ground forces, not to mention the fact that more than likely the Baldricks will smash their way into a city, where there's civilians.

Do the math: civilians in city+occupying forces preventing ANY accurate positioning data= long and bloody Stalingrad style urban combat.

What prevents the beaming out of civilians ?

[Night_stalker]

Nothing, save the fact that if the Baldrick blitz their way into the city, it's going to get very difficult to pick out human lifesigns, plus we might not even know what kinda of electrical interference summoning in portals could create, which would make transporting people unsafe.

[Ghost Rider]

Nothing, save the fact that if the Baldrick blitz their way into the city, it's going to get very difficult to pick out human lifesigns, plus we might not even know what kinda of electrical interference summoning in portals could create, which would make transporting people unsafe.

So...any demonstration as such for

- Making it hard for ST sensors to tell the difference

- Their electrical power on par to make interference possible.

This also comes into the fact, someone should provide at what speeds this will happen, because this thread is looking like a bunch of fanwhores going "Hurf hurf ST SUX!!!".

[Shroom Man 777]

Nothing, save the fact that if the Baldrick blitz their way into the city, it's going to get very difficult to pick out human lifesigns, plus we might not even know what kinda of electrical interference summoning in portals could create, which would make transporting people unsafe.

Says who?

The Baldricks portalled in through a middle of nowhere fucking desert in Bakalakadakistan. How'll that affect the transpoter signals in some city many miles away? And transporters can pick out human lifesigns if the humans have comm-badges or whatever designators that shouldn't be too uncommon around Trek Earth.

Yes, silly me I forgot how effective the Federation was at lending orbital support to its pathetic ground forces, not to mention the fact that more than likely the Baldricks will smash their way into a city, where there's civilians.

Do the math: civilians in city+occupying forces preventing ANY accurate positioning data= long and bloody Stalingrad style urban combat.

Hahahaha. Yes, silly you, you forgot how slow the Baldricks are going to be at walking across a fuckoff desert while riding their shitty hippolobsters while numbering in the thousands/millions, to be seen by Starfleet from high above and get their asses strafed by shuttles going pew-pew at them and smearing harpies in their windshields?

Do the math: a fuckload of baldricks slogging through the desert get seen from orbit, shuttles come in and shoot them up = Starfleet Captain Curtis LeMay sheds a tear of approval. STARFLEET AIR COMMAND! SAC DOES NOT SHROOM BACK!

unless the Federation has a Robert Space McNamara who'll fuck things up lol but i heard he's chained in the 25th circle of hell, a special level reserved for traitors, child molesters and people who talk in movies

EDIT:

Also, man. Star Trek transporters, in the latest movies, were shown to be accurate enough to beam people off even though THEIR PLANET IS BEING EATEN BY A BLACK HOLE RED MATTER (Vulcan).

Hey, I have a great idea! What if Starfleet just uses a tractor beam and drops an asteroid into that portal to Hell? That asteroid will fall through the portal and fall into hell, and the asteroid can just smash Satan's face! Haha!

The demons, and angels, can't beat this. If nobody can refute this point by posting screencaps of demons/angels vaporizing asteroids, or Satan's deflector shields withstanding an asteroid field impact, then CONCESSION ACCEPTED!