The New Jedi Order vs the Roman Empire

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm gonna disagree with how future medicine will make the Jedi invincible to diseases, while the Romans and shit are going to die. If a namby pamby American living in a clean city goes to, say, the Philippines, is he going to be invincible to disease while the local people are plagued by his superior Western germs? Hell no. That tourista is gonna have the shits after eating delicious but damn dirty food, or drinking unclean tap water. He can get tuberculosis, since TB's still around in the Philippines while it's non-existent in the West. Hell, if modern man (from the "future") went into the past, say, before the elimination of smallpox, he's going to be in deep ass shit. How the hell can the Force prevent smallpox? Will they use the Force to crush the mitochondria of invading microbes and give bacteria brain aneurysms? Maybe the Dark Side of the Force can throw a shroud and make them more susceptible to measles.

And, shit, are these going to be human Jedis? Cause if Kit Fisto or whoever the fuck ends up in the Roman Empire...

Hrm. Maybe an alienoid from Star Wars might actually end up getting worshiped as a god. Aayla Secura would certainly be a sex god.

Yes I know these are Old Republic Jedi, but I don't know any Jedi assholes from the shitty NJO books, so blah.

You can kill Jedi by giving them clothes infested with bubonic plague fleas. You can poison their wine. Even if the Force can help them purge poisons, they can still be weakened enough or distracted for someone to shove a spear into their faces. You can catapult some jars of Greek Fire into the building their on. Catapult some rocks too! Hell, if a Jedi is on a boat, they can catapult some Greek Fire or some rocks on that boat and sink it. Do all Jedi know how to swim? Some can drown. Wasn't there a time where Romans catapulted snakes on to enemy ships? Catapult some snakes at the Jedi. Snakes and Greek Fire. On rocks.

If you do this far enough from shore, the Jedi'll be too far away to swim to land and so they'll drown. Unless the Jedi can use Force speed and, like, make themselves travel the waters like a ekranoplan.

Though if we use TPM, Obi-Wan and Qui Gon's swimming to the underwater Gungan city might make them out to be excellent swimmers.

[Darth Hoth]

Um, I have to ask but why would Nero want to kill the Jedi? Not like they threaten his power.

Nero is sometimes known to have been a popular ruler, especially in the east. So, I have to ask why the Jedi don't create a school in Rome, and move there to be in the capital, and basically become the knights of the Empire. Use the tech to invade the Parthian empire, and from there on, invade
India and China.

Why are the Jedi interested in propping up the Roman Empire? If they had problems with the Galactic Empire . . . The Roman Empire is orders of magnitude more inhuman, monstrous and brutal in just about every way.

Better to take over and set up a theocracy of God-Emperors to gradually transform it into something more enlightened.

[Bottlestein]

I'm gonna disagree with how future medicine will make the Jedi invincible to diseases, while the Romans and shit are going to die. If a namby pamby American living in a clean city goes to, say, the Philippines, is he going to be invincible to disease while the local people are plagued by his superior Western germs? Hell no. That tourista is gonna have the shits after eating delicious but damn dirty food, or drinking unclean tap water. He can get tuberculosis, since TB's still around in the Philippines while it's non-existent in the West. Hell, if modern man (from the "future") went into the past, say, before the elimination of smallpox, he's going to be in deep ass shit. How the hell can the Force prevent smallpox? Will they use the Force to crush the mitochondria of invading microbes and give bacteria brain aneurysms? Maybe the Dark Side of the Force can throw a shroud and make them more susceptible to measles.

And, shit, are these going to be human Jedis? Cause if Kit Fisto or whoever the fuck ends up in the Roman Empire...

Hrm. Maybe an alienoid from Star Wars might actually end up getting worshiped as a god. Aayla Secura would certainly be a sex god.

Yes I know these are Old Republic Jedi, but I don't know any Jedi assholes from the shitty NJO books, so blah.

You can kill Jedi by giving them clothes infested with bubonic plague fleas. You can poison their wine. Even if the Force can help them purge poisons, they can still be weakened enough or distracted for someone to shove a spear into their faces. You can catapult some jars of Greek Fire into the building their on. Catapult some rocks too! Hell, if a Jedi is on a boat, they can catapult some Greek Fire or some rocks on that boat and sink it. Do all Jedi know how to swim? Some can drown. Wasn't there a time where Romans catapulted snakes on to enemy ships? Catapult some snakes at the Jedi. Snakes and Greek Fire. On rocks.

If you do this far enough from shore, the Jedi'll be too far away to swim to land and so they'll drown. Unless the Jedi can use Force speed and, like, make themselves travel the waters like a ekranoplan.

Though if we use TPM, Obi-Wan and Qui Gon's swimming to the underwater Gungan city might make them out to be excellent swimmers.

They are thinking of the "medical advances" as tantamount to no limits magic, rather than in terms of any actual biology. I would think it very funny if the Jedi/Sith don't have the same enzyme concentrations as we do, and can't use glucose at all. They do acrobatics on higher gravity worlds, and so require higher daily caloric intake. They land in Rome and...starve to death less than 5 hours after their food supply runs out

Incidentally, for the "poisoning" scenarios: depending on the types of amino acids they are built with, they may all automatically have PKT "in our world" and "poison" for them could just be a piece of veal or fish.

[Imperial528]

In all seriousness, I feel the situation would go like this:

"Where in the worlds are we?" A disoriented Padawan states, brushing sand off of his robes and frantically looking around.

"Oh, you woke up." A nearby Knight says to him. "The Masters have determined that we were somehow teleported here by an unknown entity. Master Luke had a vision when we arrived, and it appears that there is a force sensitive on this planet who detected us and is now attempting to have us all killed by the forces of his Empire."

"The Empire is way out here?!" The now scared Padawan responded.

"No, the Empire that is after the Order now is made up of the natives of this planet, called the Roman Empire. They are still in the age of swords and shields, and oddly they are all human. Master Luke and the other Masters have decided to try and blend in with some of the native cultures long enough for help to arrive and get us back home, it shouldn't be a problem to do so, especially with the aid of the Force."

~Meanwhile, in Rome~

"Send my finest legion to kill them! They are hiding in among villages in Egypt, kill everyone!" Shouts Nero at his Generals, as he draws up some ridiculous plan on a piece of parchment.

"Yes, Emperor." One of the Generals says, not wanting to think about what he is supposed to attack this time.

~Aftermath~

In a few months, a few skirmishes erupt (Jedi winning or using the Force to avoid the conflict entirely), one which the legion's General gets to see. After some negotiating with the Jedi the General promises to leave the Jedi alone, and brings his legion back to Rome, convincing several legions to join him on the trip home. This force defeats Nero's legions, executes him for crimes against the Roman people blah blah blah, they throw his body into the sea or the Tiber river (which ever one they see as more fitting), and the General becomes the new Emperor. Jedi go unnoticed to the point where no one knows (or cares) if they ever left.

[Bottlestein]

~Meanwhile, in Rome~

"Send my finest legion to kill them! They are hiding in among villages in Egypt, kill everyone!" Shouts Nero at his Generals, as he draws up some ridiculous plan on a piece of parchment.

"Yes, Emperor." One of the Generals says, not wanting to think about what he is supposed to attack this time.

~Aftermath~

In a few months, a few skirmishes erupt (Jedi winning or using the Force to avoid the conflict entirely), one which the legion's General gets to see. After some negotiating with the Jedi the General promises to leave the Jedi alone, and brings his legion back to Rome, convincing several legions to join him on the trip home. This force defeats Nero's legions, executes him for crimes against the Roman people blah blah blah, they throw his body into the sea or the Tiber river (which ever one they see as more fitting), and the General becomes the new Emperor. Jedi go unnoticed to the point where no one knows (or cares) if they ever left.

How would Nero know so quickly? Wouldn't the more important person in your scenario be the Governor of Egypt? It was a vital province of Rome at the time. What makes you think that the General could compromise without word heading back to Rome, especially in Egypt of all places? The legions usually did not give up after a few "skirmishes" - why would they do so now?

If we assume that the Jedi are biologically compatible with the Earth biosphere, and that the Force allows them to read people's intentions and automatically understand their society, i.e. they "understand" all of the power dynamics of the Roman Empire shortly after mind-reading Random Legionnaire A, then they've already won. As was pointed out before, they have the ability to assassinate Nero with a very small squad, since arrows and pila are the fastest projectiles that can be used against them without mobilizing siege units.

[Shroom Man 777]

It would be awesome to see that future humanoids are lactose SUPER INTOLERANT and after drinking some cow's milk, the Jedi end up dying of dehydration since they end up shitting their bodily fluids out in horrible explosive diarrhea. They must use the power of the Force to Force push their diarrhea to stop it from coming out of their butts!

[Mobius IO]

They are thinking of the "medical advances" as tantamount to no limits magic, rather than in terms of any actual biology.

One civilization understands the concept of disease and regularly makes contact with new biospheres without (apparently) suffering die offs. The other believes that plagues are caused my arrows from Mercury/Apollo.

Your really arguing that the small isolated population that sees diseases as the wrath of gods is going to fair better then members of an galaxy wide civilization with advanced medical technology and who have quasi-magic recuperative powers?

I would think it very funny if the Jedi/Sith don't have the same enzyme concentrations as we do, and can't use glucose at all. They do acrobatics on higher gravity worlds, and so require higher daily caloric intake. They land in Rome and...starve to death less than 5 hours after their food supply runs out

Incidentally, for the "poisoning" scenarios: depending on the types of amino acids they are built with, they may all automatically have PKT "in our world" and "poison" for them could just be a piece of veal or fish.

While accurate I think things like basic biological compatibility is assumed...

[Shroom Man 777]

One civilization understands the concept of disease and regularly makes contact with new biospheres without (apparently) suffering die offs. The other believes that plagues are caused my arrows from Mercury/Apollo.

That applies to us as well. Would you be well off if a bunch of unclean lepers wiped their sores on you in Biblical-era Jerusalem?

Your really arguing that the small isolated population that sees diseases as the wrath of gods is going to fair better then members of an galaxy wide civilization with advanced medical technology and who have quasi-magic recuperative powers?

These members of a galaxy-wide civilization won't have their advanced medical technology with them. This is like you going to malaria-infested Africa without flu shots, or going to the early half of the 20th century without smallpox innoculation. These guys won't have access to bacta or bactaria or whatever medical technology they have.

[Imperial528]

How would Nero know so quickly? Wouldn't the more important person in your scenario be the Governor of Egypt? It was a vital province of Rome at the time. What makes you think that the General could compromise without word heading back to Rome, especially in Egypt of all places? The legions usually did not give up after a few "skirmishes" - why would they do so now?

If we assume that the Jedi are biologically compatible with the Earth biosphere, and that the Force allows them to read people's intentions and automatically understand their society, i.e. they "understand" all of the power dynamics of the Roman Empire shortly after mind-reading Random Legionnaire A, then they've already won. As was pointed out before, they have the ability to assassinate Nero with a very small squad, since arrows and pila are the fastest projectiles that can be used against them without mobilizing siege units.

It says in the OP that Nero knows about them. And Generals often would simply head back to Rome and challenge the Emperor (Although, that really becomes a common thing later in the Empire, and it was mostly among the legions defending the borders). And given that in these skirmishes, you could very easily have a ten-legionnaire squadron defeated by two padawans or a knight, using lightsabers (or even Force-based mind control or telekinesis), if I were in command of said legion I would leave before the stories from those who survived or witnessed the events caused desertion en-mass.

Really my scenario was just a joke, and a low-end estimate of what could happen.

[Skylon]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached Peak Versus Debate.

Seriously. I expect this to be followed up by threads like "cavemen versus Jedi" or "the Taliban versus Tusken Raiders."

[Mobius IO]

That applies to us as well. Would you be well off if a bunch of unclean lepers wiped their sores on you in Biblical-era Jerusalem?

Given that I know a lot more about how leperacy is transited then then they did back then, yes I would be better off. I could take effective basic steps like sterilization, hygiene etc, instead of slaughtering a bull to appease Mercury.

These members of a galaxy-wide civilization won't have their advanced medical technology with them. This is like you going to malaria-infested Africa without flu shots, or going to the early half of the 20th century without smallpox innoculation. These guys won't have access to bacta or bactaria or whatever medical technology they have.

The OP specified that they would "The NJO has access to Star Wars era technology".

[Shroom Man 777]

Given that I know a lot more about how leperacy is transited then then they did back then, yes I would be better off. I could take effective basic steps like sterilization, hygiene etc, instead of slaughtering a bull to appease Mercury.

Grrr. What if you were in plague-infested Dark Ages Europe, then? Or Smallpoxia?

The OP specified that they would "The NJO has access to Star Wars era technology".

That is incredibly vague. With any "Star Wars era technology", they could do anything. They could grab some Sithy crystalloids and blow up the sun, for all we know. Bah.

[NecronLord]

Please explain how this group are going to get say, smallpox. Note the Iron Knight, who is not even fucking organic.

[Purple]

If he is a robot, does that mean he would require lubrication? What about their equipment? What do they have? What happens once the batteries dry out? And what happens if sand/water gets into the machinery (yes I mean the robot guy)? Presumably with SW era tech it is trivial to keep him maintained but without advances such as motor oil, tools, electricity etc. How long before the jedy loose all their equipment.

And can the aliens eat human food? Especially disease ridden all natural stuff from the time of the Romans. And do we actually know anything about the conditions in SW (in terms of deceases available)? I always had the notion that with bacta and all that most deceases were either roted out or not important. But that would cause immunity to drop and would make the jedy die of the common cold.

For some reason I can't imagine a jedi with a bacta tank on his back while tracking through the Roman Empire.


Honestly, if you ask me. Could the Romans do anything to stop them? Maybe, but most likely not.
Would there be casualties from disease and incompatible food and stuff? Probably yes.

[NecronLord]

If he is a robot, does that mean he would require lubrication? What about their equipment? What do they have? What happens once the batteries dry out? And what happens if sand/water gets into the machinery (yes I mean the robot guy)? Presumably with SW era tech it is trivial to keep him maintained

Yes it is, and that's what they have access to. Case closed.

Frankly, given the common use of speeder bikes by Jedi Knights on occasion, the Jedi should probably have those too. They can certainly be assumed to have their full complement of guns (!), support droids (Astromechs - they don't even need to post guards, R2 himself has long range sensors capable of detecting humans) and various other ground equipment they tend to run operations with.

And can the aliens eat human food? Especially disease ridden all natural stuff from the time of the Romans.

Have you fucking watched Star Wars? I recall that scene where the ewok cooking kills the Rebel commandos because these guys haven't got a clue about how to handle alien foodstuffs, oh, wait, no.

And do we actually know anything about the conditions in SW (in terms of deceases available)? I always had the notion that with bacta and all that most deceases were either roted out or not important. But that would cause immunity to drop and would make the jedy die of the common cold.

Bacta is seen all of once in the films, in a major base. That's like saying modern soldiers require hospital Intensive Care equipment to survive in a desert.

For some reason I can't imagine a jedi with a bacta tank on his back while tracking through the Roman Empire.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Roman Empire can harm them. One angry Jedi could go on a purge of the entire patrician class if he wanted.

Honestly, if you ask me. Could the Romans do anything to stop them? Maybe, but most likely not.
Would there be casualties from disease and incompatible food and stuff? Probably yes.

No. They have fucking Jedi Healers, one of whom has been known to remove nanotechnological poisons nanite by nanite in a reasonable time. They are a fully equipped expedition. And finally, you're grossly overestimating the prevalence of disease in the Ancient World. Sure, it was sucky, but it's not all plague, all the time.

[Rossum]

Also, in regards to the disease problem, hasn't the Star Wars galaxy been completely explored already for several thousand years?

I know in 'Attack of the Clones' the Jedi Temple had a big archive that supposedly listed every planet in the galaxy and considering how absurdly physics-stompingly fast their hyperdrive engines are then it would not be surprising at all if every planet was already discovered and cataloged.

Thus, it could be with all the advanced Star Wars technology that the Old Republic has long ago done a huge campaign to eliminate space-smallpox from the galaxy. Every really nasty disease germ has been tracked, categorized, cured, and exterminated from the galaxy. The fact that the SW galaxy is full of various species who can apparently eat the same food and breath the same air would mean that germs could be spread rapidly and would have a chance to mutate or spread like nobodies business. Thus, they pretty much have to cure every disease to keep these germs from crossing species and stuff.

So, many of these Star Wars planets would have access to medical droids and infrastructure that probably cured all the germs and worked to keep diseases from spreading across planets. If Luke Skywalker catches the Tatooine Flu back home and goes on an adventure where he accidentally sneezes on Yoda or forgets to wash his hands after using the bathroom in the rebel base then he just left germs from one planet to another. Flu-like germs that could spread like wildfire and who knows how they would react with the various alien races.

Now, the Jedi who land in Rome would most likely have been cured of every contagious disease they had back home. Meanwhile, Rome if full of disease and germs that none of the Jedi have ever made contact with before. In order for the Jedis magical medical technology to do anything, they would need their droids to examine every strain of germ and produce an antibody or vaccine for it. Their droids would have to scan every lake, every well, every lump of food or toilet in the country. Or maybe the Jedi have funky force powers that boost their immune system... against five dozen new strains of germs that just started knocking on the door and want to check out the new rooms.

Medical technology is only good against disease if you have have time to examine the germs before you contract the disease. The jedi would have to have a small lab (or maybe a really compact medical droid with a Star Trek replicator in its body that can replicate new antibodies instantly), get samples of the disease germs, analyse them, make a vaccine, and then vaccinate all of their members (and have some time for their immune systems to adapt). Otherwise, they would need to wear gas masks at all times, boil all of their food long enough to kill all the organisms and viruses in it, wash their hands with antibacterial soap at all times, be very careful never to get cut or risk an infected wound... or just walk around in full hazmat suits at all times.

Unless they've got Star Trek replicators with them, they will eventually run out of antibacterial soap and other medical supplies.


Actually... Starfleet has regularly shown that they have absurd medical technology that can cure people of disease and radiation damage after they are exposed. Heck, that's one of the major complaints about them... they have people walking around on alien planets full of scum and filth or acrid air with absolutely no protective equipment at all. They just inject themselves with some anti-radiation hypospray and make fallout angels in the nuclear winter wonderland.

Alien planet full of disease? Sure, starfleet immunity boosters will let you survive for the two hours you frolic amongst the alien wildlife until you get back to the ship, breath all over your coworkers, and then step into the medical bay to get vaccines to the never-before-seen microbes that now infest your system (except in those rare cases where they can't cure you... in which case you'd better not be wearing a red shirt!).

But hey, the Starfleet guys are stupid with their protective measures but they have actually demonstrate that their absurd biology-punching medical technology works and can keep them alive despite the diseases they run into. How many times have the Jedi found complelty unexplored planets or run into new diseases they've never seen before? How many times have they done so without a whole bunch of experts and medical droids to help them out?


Put the Jedi on a planet with diseases they've never made contact with before and don't give them time to make use of their medical technology and I'm pretty sure they will have some serious problems.

[NecronLord]

Also, in regards to the disease problem, hasn't the Star Wars galaxy been completely explored already for several thousand years?

No, new civilizations are discovered all the damn time. We see this in Return of the Jedi, where a developing civilization are encountered. There is no "ohshitweallgetinfected" despite associating with the unclean little things.

An archive of every planet doesn't mean they have a full biological sift of every one. We know every planet in this solar system. We have been to one of them, and one moon.

Put the Jedi on a planet with diseases they've never made contact with before and don't give them time to make use of their medical technology and I'm pretty sure they will have some serious problems.

And again, Jedi Healers. How many times must this be said? They've been known to cure fucking nano-poisons, big fucking wounds, and virulent plagues. And these things have been known to be worked out in hours at most.

[Serafina]

Besides, we know that force abilities can work against the (very few) diseases that have not been eredicated.
Given that those diseases are most likely particulary nasty, i think it's reasonable that Jedi will not have a problem.

[Purple]

If you give them access to Air speeders, bacta tanks and support equipment like that why not go all the way and give them access to a whole army or maybe a star destroyer or two. (I don't know enough about the EU to know what these guys used since they are not the Old Republic Jedi but some other guys as it would seem. In case of the Old Republic Jedi replace that with a clone army or maybe one of those imperial style pre fabricated fortress garrisons).

Edit: Better yet, let's just say that the entire Jedi Temple with complete supporting staff, vehicle park and equipment has been transported with them for the sake of convenience.

[Batman]

Thanks for not reading the OP. It EXPLICITELY says no starships. It ALSO says Jedi, not Stormtrooper regiment, regular Army or whatnot.
And NOBODY gave them access to bacta tanks or airspeeders or support equipment 'like that' (whatever that's supposed to mean). They have unspecified access to Wars technology OTHER than not having any kind of starship.
A few more details on WHAT kind of Star Wars technology they have available and for how long WOULD be nice.

[kouchpotato]

I'm guessing a Jedi could kill as many Roman legionnaires as many times as he can swing his arm. Twenty Jedi in this situation would be overkill.

[Purple]

Thanks for not reading the OP. It EXPLICITELY says no starships. It ALSO says Jedi, not Stormtrooper regiment, regular Army or whatnot.
And NOBODY gave them access to bacta tanks or airspeeders or support equipment 'like that' (whatever that's supposed to mean). They have unspecified access to Wars technology OTHER than not having any kind of starship.
A few more details on WHAT kind of Star Wars technology they have available and for how long WOULD be nice.

I was refering to this:

Yes it is, and that's what they have access to. Case closed.

Frankly, given the common use of speeder bikes by Jedi Knights on occasion, the Jedi should probably have those too. They can certainly be assumed to have their full complement of guns (!), support droids (Astromechs - they don't even need to post guards, R2 himself has long range sensors capable of detecting humans) and various other ground equipment they tend to run operations with.

And I was doing so in a satiric manner. I guess I should have quoted.

My point was that considering how unclear the OP was we can assume just about anything. Thus if we do not come to some convention as to what they could have the whole discusion becomes more or less moot.

[Batman]

Since those are essentially household items by Wars standards I fail to see why the Jedi having them under the indeed vague terms of the OP is a problem.
And as the question as per the OT is what the Roman Empire can do to the NJO, NOT the other way round, the discussion is moot anyway as there is jack all the romans can do to the Jedi even if they arrive stark naked with not equipment whatsoever, which ISN'T the case here.

[Purple]

A speeder or droids are as much a household item as a car is for us. It's not like you say that they got dropped into the time with their blender equivalent but with their car equivalent. There is a difference.

Either way, the only valid argument would be how would the jedy fair while WTFPWning the Roman Empire, not if they could do it.
But I concede one thing. Either way you put it everyones (or at least mine) favorite Roman Emperor has no chance.

[NecronLord]

The New Jedi Order uses guns fairly extensively. To the point that Kyle Katarn, whose love of the gun is scarcely less than Zardoz's, is a Jedi Master. Similarly, they use droids pretty extensively. Luke Skywalker rarely leaves home without R2 D2 for any length of time. And similarly, while they use X-wings and similar more than most vehicles, they do use them. These are all fairly common things that the NJO use.