How long could Mass Effect last against the Federation?

[Losonti Tokash]

the slugs clearly aren't relativistic, (they're 283 km/s)

You're a bit off, here. It's more like 3,900 km/s.

[Batman]

It doesn't matter.

It may not for the outcome of this debate, which I'm really not all that interested in what with never having played Mass Effect. It DOES however mean that sequence is useless for determining photorp firepower.

The best you can say is 'we don't know.'

My point exactly. The TMP asteroid sequence doesn't tell us BEANS about photorp yields (but DOES show us that just because it's blue, that doesn't mean it's a quantum torpedo )

Trek will destroy any ME ship but for different reasons. They have no FTL sensors, and they can't fight at FTL velocities. That's a crippling disadvantage ME has no answer to. ME's primary defences are geared towards fighting with KE weapons at thousands of km ranges, and countering said weapons with point-defence lasers, shields that only defend against KE impacts, and ablative armour. Phasers and photon torpedoes can bypass those defences (point defence is not going to do anything against a warp-speed weapon like a photon torpedo, and the kinetic barriers are incapable of affecting DEW and ablative armour can stand up to it but for how long, especially when the ME ship can't fight back at something travelling at warp velocities?) and the tactical use of warp drive means battle is dictated by the trek commander.

Phasers are by necessity (and, if I remember correctly, dialogue) particle weapons and thus WOULD be interfered with by kinetic barriers as I understand them, and photon torpedoes are DEFINITELY physical projectiles. Photon torpedoes are Warp capable only if LAUNCHED at Warp and attacks FROM Warp at targets STL are the next best thing to unheard of (in fact I can't recall a single example, I don't think the Warp combat in TOS ever mentions relative velocities And the Warp combat in DS9 IIRC ALWAYS occurs when ALL involved parties were at Warp).

[Star Wars 888]

Strategically though even if the Feseration can pwn Mass Effect in space combat their warp drive isn't fast enough nor fuel lasting enough to conquer the Mass Effect galaxy. They'd have to capture a large and developed planet relatively intact, which would be difficult because Mass Effect owns the Federation in ground combat and then hold it against counter invasions while developing more warp fuel or adapting their ships to use mass relays.

The Federation may try and capture the Citadel, in which case they would gain control of the mass relays, effectively decapitating Mass Effect's ability to do anything in return. However, that once again brings up the problem that to take the Citadel would involve facing vastly superior Mass Effect troops that have the advantage of defensive positions and such.

Then, realistically the Federation would still need to keep forces back to defend agains the Klingons and such, but that would be a little unfair in this scenario; maybe we could leave that out.

[Stofsk]

Phasers are by necessity (and, if I remember correctly, dialogue) particle weapons and thus WOULD be interfered with by kinetic barriers as I understand them,

What do you base that understanding on? The codex for Mass Effect explicitly says kinetic barriers have no effect on DEW which includes lasers, particle weapons and so on. That's why they have ablative armour.

and photon torpedoes are DEFINITELY physical projectiles. Photon torpedoes are Warp capable only if LAUNCHED at Warp and attacks FROM Warp at targets STL are the next best thing to unheard of (in fact I can't recall a single example, I don't think the Warp combat in TOS ever mentions relative velocities

Did you somehow miss the examples I gave last page?

Then there's the plasma torpedo the Romulan Bird of Prey fires at the Enterprise in 'Balance of Terror' which the Enterprise could only escape from by going to emergency warp. The entire episode had the Enterprise almost constantly at warp speed.

And the Warp combat in DS9 IIRC ALWAYS occurs when ALL involved parties were at Warp).

I was talking about TOS.

[Batman]

Phasers are by necessity (and, if I remember correctly, dialogue) particle weapons and thus WOULD be interfered with by kinetic barriers as I understand them,

What do you base that understanding on? The codex for Mass Effect explicitly says kinetic barriers have no effect on DEW which includes lasers, particle weapons and so on. That's why they have ablative armour.

DEW does NOT include particle weapons, at least not in the real world. If the ME codex SAYS it does I naturally withdraw the objection, but DEW means a directed ENERGY weapon, i.e. a laser, maser, graser, x-ray laser, ANYTHING that involves something MASSLESS. A particle beam is NOT a massless weapon and would thus (from what I understand about kinetic barriers, which is by no means necessarily correct) be affected by kinetic barriers.

and photon torpedoes are DEFINITELY physical projectiles. Photon torpedoes are Warp capable only if LAUNCHED at Warp and attacks FROM Warp at targets STL are the next best thing to unheard of (in fact I can't recall a single example, I don't think the Warp combat in TOS ever mentions relative velocities

Did you somehow miss the examples I gave last page?

Where you showed them launching photorps from Warp at STL targets where? Also, being physical projectiles they WOULD run into the kinetic barriers.

Then there's the plasma torpedo the Romulan Bird of Prey fires at the Enterprise in 'Balance of Terror' which the Enterprise could only escape from by going to emergency warp. The entire episode had the Enterprise almost constantly at warp speed.

My point exactly. The RELATIVE speed between the big E and the Warbird was?

And the Warp combat in DS9 IIRC ALWAYS occurs when ALL involved parties were at Warp).

I was talking about TOS.

And I was providing additional information showing that combat at Warp does only happen BETWEEN combatants at Warp.

[RedImperator]

Since WHEN are PHOTON torpedoes KINETIC weapons ANYWAY? They MIGHT be A physical PROJECTILE, but THEIR destructive MECHANISM is A cascade OF gamma RAYS from MATTER-antimmater ANNIHILATION. I don't KNOW what EFFECT point DEFENSE lasers WILL have AGAINST them BECAUSE i KNOW nothing ABOUT mass EFFECT, but IF a PHOTORP hits A shield, IT will SIMPLY detonate AND blast THE target WITH gamma RAYS. IN that SENSE, they WOULD be MORE effective THAN they ARE against TREK ships, SINCE trek SHIELDS block EM radiation AS well. UNLESS the SHIELDS stop THEM far ENOUGH away FROM the ARMOR that THE blast ATTENUATES before IT arrives, BUT again, I know NOTHING about MASS effect.

[Star Wars 888]

You guys, even if Mass Effect kinetic barriers can interact with Star Trek photon torpedoes it won't do much; volleys of multi megaton photon torpedoes will rip apart ships that can withstand a few 38 kiloton hits or possibly even less.

[Stofsk]

(from what I understand about kinetic barriers, which is by no means necessarily correct)

Listen to someone who has fucking read the ME codex then. Kinetic barriers do nothing to prevent particle beams. See below.

Did you somehow miss the examples I gave last page?

Where you showed them launching photorps from Warp at STL targets where?

'Elaan of Troyius' which I referred to last page you lazy fucker. Only it wasn't photorps, but Klingon disruptors, so it's even worse (as disruptors aren't a projectile weapon that have warp sustainers on them like photorps do). The point is combat engagements in Star Trek take place at warp velocities because to do otherwise leads to what occurs in 'Elaan of Troyius' where the slower vessel is constantly out maneouvred by the faster vessel who shoots at will and escapes retaliation with impunity.

Also, being physical projectiles they WOULD run into the kinetic barriers.

Uh no they wouldn't, for all the reasons Red has pointed out.

Then there's the plasma torpedo the Romulan Bird of Prey fires at the Enterprise in 'Balance of Terror' which the Enterprise could only escape from by going to emergency warp. The entire episode had the Enterprise almost constantly at warp speed.

My point exactly. The RELATIVE speed between the big E and the Warbird was?

What fucking point? The plasma torpedo is capable of high-warp acceleration. The Bird of Prey had 'simple impulse' as its power source, the Enterprise was faster than it and could outrun it, but the Bird of Prey's weaponry is faster than the Enterprise is capable of achieving.

And I was providing additional information showing that combat at Warp does only happen BETWEEN combatants at Warp.

And you were totally fucking wrong, betraying an ignorance about TOS, and your failure to take five minutes to look up the Mass Effect wiki on kinetic barriers betrays your ignorance of Mass Effect.

Weapons: Ablative Armor

A warship's kinetic barriers reduce the damage from solid objects, but can do nothing to block GARDIAN lasers, particle beams, and other forms of Directed Energy Weapon (DEW). The inner layer of warship protection consists of ablative armor plate designed to "boil away" when heated. The vaporized armor material scatters a DEW beam, rendering it ineffectual.

And I see you have not bothered to respond to the other issue, the main issue, that being the complete lack of FTL targeting sensors on Mass Effect vessels:

Starships: Sensors

"Light lag" prevents sensing in real time at great distances. A ship firing its thrusters at the Charon Relay can be easily detected from Earth, 5.75 light-hours (six billion kilometers) away, but Earth will only see the event five hours and 45 minutes after it occurs. Due to the light-speed limit, defenders can't see enemies coming until they have already arrived. Because there is FTL travel and communications but no FTL sensors, frigates are crucial for scouting and picket duties.

Passive sensors are used for long-range detection, while active sensors obtain short-range, high quality targeting data.

Passive sensors include visual, thermographic, and radio detectors that watch and listen for objects in space. A powered ship emits a great deal of energy; the heat of the life support systems; the radiation given off by power plants and electrical equipment; the exhaust of the thrusters. Starships stand out plainly against the near-absolute zero background of space. Passive sensors can be used during FTL travel, but incoming data is significantly distorted by the effect of the mass effect envelope and Doppler shift.

Active sensors are radars and high resolution ladars (LAser Detection And Ranging) that emit a "ping" of energy and "listen" for return signals. Ladars have a narrower field of view than radar, but ladar resolution allows images of detected objects to be assembled. Active sensors are useless when a ship is moving at FTL speeds.

Without FTL sensors, the Citadel races can't track the Star Trek ships. If they can't track them, they can't hit them. If they can't hit them, they can't fucking win this stupid versus match up. Even a simple Picard manoeuvre would fuck them.

[Batman]

Um-I never said anything about photorps being KINETIC weapons (which they indeed aren't). They ARE however physical projectiles and thus (from my understanding of ME's kinetic barriers) WOULD be stopped by them (as in not being able to go THROUGH them). Why happens once they run into and DETONATE against them I know too little about ME to determine.

You guys, even if Mass Effect kinetic barriers can interact with Star Trek photon torpedoes it won't do much; volleys of multi megaton photon torpedoes will rip apart ships that can withstand a few 38 kiloton hits or possibly even less.

I have yet to see evidence for multi-MT torpedoes and once more, inverse square rule. A photorp wastes the vast majority of its yield on empty space. A kinetic projectile does NOT (it also works on a completely different damage mechanism so the comparison of yields numbers is probably dubious at best).
Again, I don't know beans about ME but assuming the kinetic barrier stops the torpedo 100m from the hull, the hull area is 200x200 meters conveniently centered on the explosion, and the torpedo yield is 1 MT, the total energy delivered is-less than 16 KT spread out over the entire hull. Vs a 38KT penetrator hitting a few square meters of it.

[Star Wars 888]

Based on Mass Effect cutscenes and gameplay segments the kinetic barriers surrounding a ship are practically a few feet away from the hull.

[RedImperator]

Um-I never said anything about photorps being KINETIC weapons (which they indeed aren't). They ARE however physical projectiles and thus (from my understanding of ME's kinetic barriers) WOULD be stopped by them (as in not being able to go THROUGH them). Why happens once they run into and DETONATE against them I know too little about ME to determine.

who CARES, then? UNLESS the SHIELDS extend MANY kilometers FROM the HULL, their PRACTICAL effect ON photorps WILL be NEGLIGIBLE.

[Stofsk]

Again, I don't know beans about ME but assuming

Jesus Christ.

[Star Wars 888]

the slugs clearly aren't relativistic, (they're 283 km/s)

You're a bit off, here. It's more like 3,900 km/s.

Not according to the Mass Effect Codex.

[Batman]

(from what I understand about kinetic barriers, which is by no means necessarily correct)

Listen to someone who has fucking read the ME codex then. Kinetic barriers do nothing to prevent particle beams. See below.

Did you somehow miss the examples I gave last page?

Where you showed them launching photorps from Warp at STL targets where?

'Elaan of Troyius' which I referred to last page you lazy fucker. Only it wasn't photorps, but Klingon disruptors, so it's even worse (as disruptors aren't a projectile weapon that have warp sustainers on them like photorps do).

Which once more doesn't say BEANS about RELATIVE speeds being FTL.

The point is combat engagements in Star Trek take place at warp velocities because to do otherwise leads to what occurs in 'Elaan of Troyius' where the slower vessel is constantly out maneouvred by the faster vessel who shoots at will and escapes retaliation with impunity.

Every once in a blue moon.

Also, being physical projectiles they WOULD run into the kinetic barriers.

Uh no they wouldn't, for all the reasons Red has pointed out.

They most definitely WOULD. The ENERGY RELEASED BY THE TORPEDO DETONATION would not but the torpedo itself most certainly WOULD be stopped by the barrier. Wether that does the ME side any good is determined by the distance the barriers are from the ship and how good they are at dealing with ratiation rather than KE damage.

Then there's the plasma torpedo the Romulan Bird of Prey fires at the Enterprise in 'Balance of Terror' which the Enterprise could only escape from by going to emergency warp. The entire episode had the Enterprise almost constantly at warp speed.

My point exactly. The RELATIVE speed between the big E and the Warbird was?

What fucking point? The plasma torpedo is capable of high-warp acceleration. The Bird of Prey had 'simple impulse' as its power source, the Enterprise was faster than it and could outrun it, but the Bird of Prey's weaponry is faster than the Enterprise is capable of achieving.

I'll take that as an 'I have no fucking clue'. 'High Warp acceleration' is a meaningless term. The BoP was using impulse POWER. I was NOT at impulse SPEED as I recall. So without knowing the SPEED differential between the two the acceleration of the torpedo is frankly impossible to tell.
Again, this doesn't constitute and attack at an STL target from FTL.

And I was providing additional information showing that combat at Warp does only happen BETWEEN combatants at Warp.

And you were totally fucking wrong, betraying an ignorance about TOS

Were none of that ever happens, the combat happens AT Warp, not with relative FTL velocities, Sulu routinely calls out STL closing speeds,
, and your failure to take five minutes to look up the Mass Effect wiki on kinetic barriers betrays your ignorance of Mass Effect.[/quote]
Yeah. It's totally not like ADMITTED to that or something.

And I see you have not bothered to respond to the other issue, the main issue, that being the complete lack of FTL targeting sensors on Mass Effect vessels:

That'd be the part where I couldn't care less? My issues are with LOL TOS shows Warp combat vs STL vessels (which it doesn't), photorps won't be stopped by kinetic barriers (which they would) and particle beams won't be interfered with by kinetic barriers (which they apparently won't thanks to ME canon saying so).

[Stofsk]

Which once more doesn't say BEANS about RELATIVE speeds being FTL.

The Klingon warship was travelling at warp 6, while the Enterprise wasn't travelling at warp at all. EDIT: that was at the start. It was travelling 'better than warp 7' later in the combat.

The point is combat engagements in Star Trek take place at warp velocities because to do otherwise leads to what occurs in 'Elaan of Troyius' where the slower vessel is constantly out maneouvred by the faster vessel who shoots at will and escapes retaliation with impunity.

Every once in a blue moon.

Uh no they wouldn't, for all the reasons Red has pointed out.

They most definitely WOULD. The ENERGY RELEASED BY THE TORPEDO DETONATION would not but the torpedo itself most certainly WOULD be stopped by the barrier. Wether that does the ME side any good is determined by the distance the barriers are from the ship and how good they are at dealing with ratiation rather than KE damage.

Your entire point is useless since kinetic barriers are not going to do anything to prevent a photorp from detonating.

I'll take that as an 'I have no fucking clue'. 'High Warp acceleration' is a meaningless term. The BoP was using impulse POWER. I was NOT at impulse SPEED as I recall. So without knowing the SPEED differential between the two the acceleration of the torpedo is frankly impossible to tell.

The precise acceleration is immaterial to the point that Mass Effect can't do shit about such a weapon that's launched at them.

Again, this doesn't constitute and attack at an STL target from FTL.

No, the 'Elaan of Troyius' is an example of that you blithering idiot. The plasma torpedo is an example of a projectile weapon that ME can't defend against.

Yeah. It's totally not like ADMITTED to that or something.

Maybe you can fuck off out of this thread then.

And I see you have not bothered to respond to the other issue, the main issue, that being the complete lack of FTL targeting sensors on Mass Effect vessels:

That'd be the part where I couldn't care less?

So you're just trolling.

My issues are with LOL TOS shows Warp combat vs STL vessels (which it doesn't),

Yes it does. 'Elaan of Troyius'.

photorps won't be stopped by kinetic barriers (which they would)

No they wouldn't.

and particle beams won't be interfered with by kinetic barriers (which they apparently won't thanks to ME canon saying so).

It's Canon.

[Losonti Tokash]

the slugs clearly aren't relativistic, (they're 283 km/s)

You're a bit off, here. It's more like 3,900 km/s.

Not according to the Mass Effect Codex.

Well, 3,900 km/s is the figure given by the drill sergeant giving the physics lesson on the Citadel, and for a 20 kilo round it comes out to a total energy of about 36 kilotons. Which is the number being thrown around here anyway.

[EvilPie]

They screwed up the math in the codex in ME1. In ME2 they fixed it, to a 20kg slug at 4000 km/s (0.013c), so it actually comes out to 38kt.

Edit: Crap, Losonti Tokash beat me to it.

[Mayabird]

The Federation may try and capture the Citadel, in which case they would gain control of the mass relays, effectively decapitating Mass Effect's ability to do anything in return.

No.

Control of the Citadel only equals control of all the mass relays when the Reapers do it, because they specifically designed everything to make it easy for them to commit their periodic genocide. Having any idiot who wanders to the Citadel be able to do it, thus being able to block them, would be counterproductive to their aims. If the Citadel actually did have that ability, the rachni wars and Krogan Rebellion would not have ended up being the giant clusterfucks that they were. Once they activate a mass relay they have no idea how to shut them back down, which is why they established the rule about not activating any until they know where they go.

Though I'm with Stofsk on this scenario. Why are they even fighting? Did the Systems Alliance and the Federation get stuck in a slow elevator with Wrex, who asked them which one would win in a fight?

[Star Wars 888]

The Federation may try and capture the Citadel, in which case they would gain control of the mass relays, effectively decapitating Mass Effect's ability to do anything in return.

No.

Control of the Citadel only equals control of all the mass relays when the Reapers do it, because they specifically designed everything to make it easy for them to commit their periodic genocide. Having any idiot who wanders to the Citadel be able to do it, thus being able to block them, would be counterproductive to their aims. If the Citadel actually did have that ability, the rachni wars and Krogan Rebellion would not have ended up being the giant clusterfucks that they were. Once they activate a mass relay they have no idea how to shut them back down, which is why they established the rule about not activating any until they know where they go.

Oh yeah, good point. However, what about destroying the Citadel? That would probably disable the mass relays, although the Federation fleet that destroyed the Citadel would be stuck in space, and the Federation's warp capabilities would not be adequate to take over a galaxy.

Though I'm with Stofsk on this scenario. Why are they even fighting? Did the Systems Alliance and the Federation get stuck in a slow elevator with Wrex, who asked them which one would win in a fight?

It's a hypothetical scenario. Maybe the Federation wants to expand its territory into another universe so that it has a backup life support in case of the Borg or another race conquering them, and the Federation's new president is very aggressive and war mongering.

[Omeganian]

The Federation may try and capture the Citadel, in which case they would gain control of the mass relays, effectively decapitating Mass Effect's ability to do anything in return.

No.

Control of the Citadel only equals control of all the mass relays when the Reapers do it, because they specifically designed everything to make it easy for them to commit their periodic genocide. Having any idiot who wanders to the Citadel be able to do it, thus being able to block them, would be counterproductive to their aims. If the Citadel actually did have that ability, the rachni wars and Krogan Rebellion would not have ended up being the giant clusterfucks that they were. Once they activate a mass relay they have no idea how to shut them back down, which is why they established the rule about not activating any until they know where they go.

Oh yeah, good point. However, what about destroying the Citadel? That would probably disable the mass relays, although the Federation fleet that destroyed the Citadel would be stuck in space, and the Federation's warp capabilities would not be adequate to take over a galaxy.

According to the ME wiki:

# Total length (open): 44.7km
# Diameter (open): 12.8km
# Thickness of Ward arms: 330m
# Presidium diameter: 7.2km
# Exterior armor thickness: 13m
# Gross weight: 7.11 billion metric tons

Doesn't look that easy to destroy in five minutes. Any longer than that, and half the galactic navies will arrive.

[Mayabird]

Oh yeah, good point. However, what about destroying the Citadel? That would probably disable the mass relays, although the Federation fleet that destroyed the Citadel would be stuck in space, and the Federation's warp capabilities would not be adequate to take over a galaxy.

And where do you get this from? How would destroying the Citadel disable the mass relays? This *might* happen, in the same way that I might suddenly start producing clonal births of myself, but there's absolutely no evidence to support that would happen. You're pulling stuff out of your ass here.

Omeganian handled most of the stats about the actual process of destroying it, except left out that the Citadel is made out of the same stuff that mass relays are made out of, and according to the wiki, one mass relay was completely undamaged after being caught in the wake of a supernova. We can't really get good numbers out of that since we don't know how far it was from it, etc., but there you go.

Though I'm with Stofsk on this scenario. Why are they even fighting? Did the Systems Alliance and the Federation get stuck in a slow elevator with Wrex, who asked them which one would win in a fight?

It's a hypothetical scenario. Maybe the Federation wants to expand its territory into another universe so that it has a backup life support in case of the Borg or another race conquering them, and the Federation's new president is very aggressive and war mongering.

Do you know anything about the Federation that isn't technical stats? Where did they suddenly magically get this warmongering conquering bent that is completely contrary to their actual culture? If they want help against the Borg, they could try to establish an alliance. The Federation president isn't a dictator with both absolute secular power plus mind control powers over trillions of people stretched across an entire galactic sector.


A good answer would have been "good militaries always have plans for everything and anything that could possibly maybe happen (including dealing with a coup by the Girl Scouts) or be necessary to do (like invading the Vatican) and this is part of that." I will give you that for free for future reference.

[seanrobertson]

Name a single episode where a photon torpedo has demonstrated firepower in the megaton range.

"Cost of Living" provides us with a decent example. The Enterprise fires two torpedoes at an asteroid which shatters violently, leaving a fragment less than 20% the original body's diameter behind.

That fragment, which the crew oddly describes as the asteroid's "core," is of "sufficient size and density to cause world-wide damage."

NASA's definition of global damage is explicit: the impact must yield in the 100 million megaton range to affect an entire world. That translates to a body over 1 kilometer wide.

People have played semantics games with me before about potential differences between "world-wide" and "global." I see that as self-evident.

In any case, since two photorps destroyed all but the core -- a rock which was composed of elements which aren't on the Periodic Table -- and the core itself was big enough to inflict planet-wide damage, the original body must've been several kilometers in diameter.

Even if we assume the thing was, in fact, a comet (which, in reality, would help explain those "core" references), blowing it up would still require low megaton-ranged torpedoes. Incidentally, that is in line with figures derived from Riker's asteroid-shattering expectations in "Pegasus."


Batman:

When you say a proximity-detonated photorp only imparts 16 kilotons to the target, would you kindly explain your math? If I understand what you're saying correctly ...

The yield is 1 MT.
The distance from the center of the explosion to the target is 100m.
The target's profile area is 40,000 m^2.

I get almost 320 kilotons from those numbers.

[Swindle1984]

Tech manuals.

Non-canon. Try stuff demonstrated in the series and films.

Even that's fast enough to dodge a somewhat fast moving slug from thousands of miles away.

Sure, if you quoted the speed of the slug correctly. Which you didn't.

Again, name an instance where we saw photorps with a yield in the megaton range.

Tech manuals.

Still non-canon.

Did you look at my username?

Relevence?

I'm not sure about that. In terms of ridiculous incompetence, movie Starship Troopers mobile infantry is definitely up there in being the most incompetent military force in fiction.

Well, yeah, no argument there. But let's see, guys who wear pajamas and dress shoes into a combat zone and are equipped with phasers and nothing else, vs guys with machine guns and grenades. Yeaaaah... Feddies get raped on the ground. Even with the late introduction of the Worfzooka, which shows less firepower than a modern 40mm grenade launcher, I don't think they have a counter to the nuclear bazooka. Plus, again, flak jackets and helmets give the Starship Troopers clowns an advantage, albeit a small one. Neither side has artillery, armor, or vehicles (except the one instance of a dune buggy in Nemesis), though the Troopers did once use an air strike with napalm, so that's something at least. And they had mounted machine guns in a defensive position.

flak jackets - wouldn't stop phasers
helmets - wouldn't stop phasers
grenades - true
nuclear RPGs - which they have horrible tactics at using. Instead of arming them before a battle and using them constantly, they have them unprepared and arm them after they see a bug and have to frantically arm them while being attacked and only occasionally use them.

Flak jackets stopping phasers- maybe, on lower levels. We've seen plastic packing containers and ordinary walls stop lethal phaser hits. As for not arming the nuclear RPG until they spot the bug holes... would you carry a small nuke that was ready to go off on impact around?

[Swindle1984]

Sure
Journey to Babel Kirk orders the open fire when the Orion ships hit 75,000km

That's not "hundreds of thousands of miles", it's "tens of thousands of kilometers".

In a matter of Honor Riker tells the Kligon to hold fire untill 40,000km to allow less reaction time.

See above.

In the Wounded Data states The Warship is 300,000 kilometers from the Phoenix and they have a visual overlay showing that the Phoneix is just barely out of weapon ranges. Data then reports the cardi open fire yet the had only shifted a small percentage.

Got any more info on the scene? What did the Cardi fire with, and did it hit?

Name a single episode where a photon torpedo has demonstrated firepower in the megaton range.

I don't know about photons, but Plasma warheads blew through the deflector shields of outpost 4 and caused massive damage to the base a mile inside the astroid killing everyone with one hit.

Was that because of the explosion, or because it burned its way through?

We know that photons can be modified, which at one point they had modified one to the point where it could destroyer a small planet. And while that was dialog and might have been exgrarration no else else even batted an eye.

Wut.

Riker was shown pretending adding antimatter to the Pakled weapons to increase their power.

It was Geordi, not Riker, and they were tricking a group of complete retards who surrendered after being disabled by the "crimson forcefield". You're going to take that seriously?

In Voy Living Witness a Torpedo with 25 Isotons(type 6) can destroy a city, granted they don't say how big a city is.

So how many tons is a 25 isoton yield? What's the city made of? How big is it?

In Voy Scorpion part two the type 6 had a range of 8 million km. Granted most likely only a portion of that is powered the rest is ballistic trajectory.

Is that with or without Voyager firing it at warp? I know it was stated at some point in TNG that a shit traveling at warp could fire a torpedo and the torp would coast at warp for a while before slowing down. Remind me, what was the exact context for this scene? I haven't seen Scorpion since it first aired.

In TNG the Nth degree it was stated that if shielded ship fired a torpedo at close range the firing ship could suffer damage.

And what qualifies as "close range" and how much damage would they suffer, in this instance?

DS9 "Apocalypse Rising", Damar states that a "full spread" of photon torpedoes is sufficient to destroy the "Klingon High Command and everyone else within a few hundred kilometers".

That's multiple torpedoes, spread out over a large area, and a nuclear explosion in an atmosphere is different than a nuclear explosion in space.

ENT The Expanse The photonic torpedo is equipped with a variable yield antimatter warhead. The variable yield was described by Malcolm Reed as being able to "knock the com array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull, or put a three-kilometer crater into an asteroid." Antimatter to the warheads on NX-class starships is provided by the ship's antimatter reserves.

What's the asteroid made of?

[CSJM]

Do you know anything about the Federation that isn't technical stats? Where did they suddenly magically get this warmongering conquering bent that is completely contrary to their actual culture? If they want help against the Borg, they could try to establish an alliance. The Federation president isn't a dictator with both absolute secular power plus mind control powers over trillions of people stretched across an entire galactic sector.


A good answer would have been "good militaries always have plans for everything and anything that could possibly maybe happen (including dealing with a coup by the Girl Scouts) or be necessary to do (like invading the Vatican) and this is part of that." I will give you that for free for future reference.

Maybe alternate universe Federation? Like from the "In the Mirror Darkly" arc of the Enterprise series? Same ships, same power and techlevel, more aggressive tactics and "warmongering" behavior.